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Ponytail issues Follow

#1 Jul 06 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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Hey guys i made this post in the feedback forums(beta players only saddly) and wanted to share and hope to get some likes. There are issue with ponytails that should be fixed.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/74032-Ponytail-Gliches-and-Curlyhair-issues

Added so everyone could see what im talking about.
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Ponytail Glitches and Curlyhair issues

I love the hairstyle below but it goes into her body and the curls in the ponytail are flat like paper and not.. well..curly. I would rather them be removed than leave them like this.

Hair going into her back
http://imgur.com/GM4orYX
http://imgur.com/km9Vlfa
Curls are flat
http://imgur.com/tVifK7B



Edited, Jul 6th 2013 4:25pm by silverhope
#2 Jul 06 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Default
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/sigh
#3 Jul 06 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Viertel wrote:
/sigh


aww dont do that. they want to know glitches like this, hair should'nt be going into the player when they run or sit or do any action.
#4 Jul 06 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, unfortunately that's pretty common with current 3d modelling.

Making hair behave like hair is surprisingly difficult to do. If you want a solid example of hair done well, check out the new Tomb Raider game; although turning on the hair effects in that game requires a pretty beefy machine just because rendering that in real time is really hard.
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#5 Jul 06 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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I think the best solution would be to cut the hair a tad shorter and remove the curls . its usally the tips that go into the back
#6 Jul 06 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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silverhope wrote:
I think the best solution would be to cut the hair a tad shorter and remove the curls . its usally the tips that go into the back


It'd still clip through tall armor or capes.

Personally, I'd rather have options for long hair and just understand that it's going to do that, rather than having only short hairstyles available and then they STILL do that on hats.
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#7 Jul 06 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


Personally, I'd rather have options for long hair and just understand that it's going to do that, rather than having only short hairstyles available and then they STILL do that on hats.


Thats true. Mainly I hate the curls, the cutting into body parts was just something i noticed while taking a pic of the curls .
#8 Jul 06 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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An issue I have had is when I have a shield on my back. Can't stand how the hair just goes right through the shield. It literally just ruins the mood and the hair for me. I am thinking I will just choose a shorter hairstyle. /sigh indeed
#9 Jul 07 2013 at 7:47 AM Rating: Default
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Agreed. I want to go Roegadan, but the longer hair models look better for the F, but, they're always in my Staff.. @_@
#10 Jul 07 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Default
I want the time I spent reading this thread back.

Welcome to 3D gaming, people, stuff clips into other stuff. It's pretty much the norm unless you do like FFXI did and never have anything that can possibly clip into anything.

Those are your options. Right now, it's just not possible to make hair physics that are meaningful because of the amount of resources it would take to ********** render hair alone....[/b]
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#11 Jul 08 2013 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I tell you what, if you can verify to SE that the majority of their players are running the game on Silicon Graphics Workstations, then maybe they'll take the time and effort to design and render every little hair strand in real time. If not, you're just gonna have to wait for another 10 years or so, until the typical PC is powerful enough to render millions of strands of hair in real time with a physics engine backing it up.
#12 Jul 08 2013 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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I believe that this falls under issues they know about, but are not planning to address.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/36485-FFXIV-A-Realm-Reborn-Player-Feedback-Status-List?p=643281&viewfull=1#post643281

specifically the hair type has it's own resolution issue, where they stated that they designed the Hair so that they all fit into the same memory standards. and the issue with armor clipping due to them wanting unique silhouettes.


Could be wrong though, and it's not like it hurts anything to post feedback. It's a more productive post than 90% of what's been on the English Beta forums lately.

#13 Jul 08 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Wyldkat wrote:
I Could be wrong though, and it's not like it hurts anything to post feedback. It's a more productive post than 90% of what's been on the English Beta forums lately.


Like that 20-page argument over panty shots.

Edited, Jul 8th 2013 10:10am by HeroMystic
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#14 Jul 08 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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You don't need to animated every individual strand. You just need a designated "bend point" and an animation for the hair to bend, such that if it hits armor it bends to where gravity allows it to fall. This could work both ways for long hairstyles, as when your character leans forward or nods currently, all the hair moves with them like a giant block.

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#15 Jul 08 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
This could work both ways for long hairstyles, as when your character leans forward or nods currently, all the hair moves with them like a giant block.



When I played around with roe females the onle hairstyle I liked was the long one with the side bangs. And it never moved like it had way to much hair gel lol. I don't mind if they don't put time into hair but don't add styles for the sake of addjg them when they don't act like hair.
#16 Jul 08 2013 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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I want highlights, or streaks.
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#17 Jul 08 2013 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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I want highlights, or streaks.


My male Elezen has purple hair with streaks in it :)
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#18 Jul 08 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Another option would be to have the hair style change depending on the armor being worn. If the hair is going to cut through the armor, there should be an alternate style where the hair is put up rather than just hanging down. It probably wouldn't be too much work to add in, and it wouldn't really require any additional resources.
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#19 Jul 08 2013 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
/sigh


What's your problem? People are coming here to speak about glitches they found in the game. Certainly you saw a preview of this post by hovering over the title before actually coming into this tread, and that goes for anyone who comes here to complain about the topic. Seriously, I don't understand people at all.

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Thanks for posting the glitch Silverhope, we should comment about every glitch we find so in the end the game is better, whether "mechanical" or cosmetic. This is what beta is about, right?
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#20 Jul 08 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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On a similar note, I wonder if the mage staff still pokes right through the pointy hat when it's strapped to your back.

I feel your pain, It's VERY distracting.

Beautiful graphics as far as the eye can see, and a huge graphical glitch right in the center of the screen to ruin it all.
#21 Jul 08 2013 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Gnu wrote:
On a similar note, I wonder if the mage staff still pokes right through the pointy hat when it's strapped to your back.

I feel your pain, It's VERY distracting.

Beautiful graphics as far as the eye can see, and a huge graphical glitch right in the center of the screen to ruin it all.


As LNC I noticed my weapons cutting into my clothes around the collars more often than not.
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#22 Jul 08 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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http://imgur.com/sCTg32r

this one shows the staff going right threw the hood.
#23 Jul 08 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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It has always bugged me how weapons and shields just stick to your character like velcro. I know its nit-picking but hey this is 2013. My sword needs a sheath!
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#24 Jul 09 2013 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
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Wyldkat wrote:
I believe that this falls under issues they know about, but are not planning to address.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/36485-FFXIV-A-Realm-Reborn-Player-Feedback-Status-List?p=643281&viewfull=1#post643281

specifically the hair type has it's own resolution issue, where they stated that they designed the Hair so that they all fit into the same memory standards. and the issue with armor clipping due to them wanting unique silhouettes.


Could be wrong though, and it's not like it hurts anything to post feedback. It's a more productive post than 90% of what's been on the English Beta forums lately.



I don't blame them. I wouldn't waste time with such a non-issue either. As for the person who stated 'All you have to do is make a bend point'. While true, do you think someone who is finicky enough to consider minor clipping an 'issue' to be satisfied with that, cause it certainly wouldn't look 'good', by any means? Safest thing, as mentioned before, would be to do what Tera does, and pin the long hairstyles up when it would clip into something.

If enough people complain about this, it could have the exact opposite of the intended result. Chances are they won't take the phenomenal amount of time to tweak every single customization/armor model/weapon model just right, they'll start removing stuff. They could exclude certain customization options or models in the future due to the aesthetic (again, not an issue for me, as I understand how 3D works) 'issue' certain people may have with it. Be careful what you wish for and all that.

Edited, Jul 9th 2013 6:04am by DragonBourne
#25 Jul 09 2013 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
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Thats one slippery slope you got there man. Are you ok with the way parts of your character clip through each other, especially in the screenshots?

To use your own logical fallacy against you, I could then assume if you're ok with that then you're ok with being able to clip through terrain, getting stuck in the environment, and broken quests that can never be completed. You're also implying you can see the future if the issue is actually addressed.

I dont see any problem reporting this issue. I think SE knows better than any of us if this kind of issue is reasonably fixable, but as beta testers we're supposed to report bugs as we see them and let them sort it out. None of this "well they wont fix it anyway so why report it" business.
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#26 Jul 09 2013 at 6:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't see why some people are getting so upset over all this. Yea most games have clipping but Im sure most players would love for the character to look flawless and not have hair in them and staffs in there necks and such. Everyone crys immersion when teleporting and df and lightning were put in the game but if we try and make our characters more real with less clipping were talking crazy.
#27 Jul 09 2013 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
Thats one slippery slope you got there man. Are you ok with the way parts of your character clip through each other, especially in the screenshots?

To use your own logical fallacy against you, I could then assume if you're ok with that then you're ok with being able to clip through terrain, getting stuck in the environment, and broken quests that can never be completed. You're also implying you can see the future if the issue is actually addressed.

I dont see any problem reporting this issue. I think SE knows better than any of us if this kind of issue is reasonably fixable, but as beta testers we're supposed to report bugs as we see them and let them sort it out. None of this "well they wont fix it anyway so why report it" business.


Come on. Are you really comparing getting stuck in the environment and broken quests with the tip of your hair clipping through your back? You misunderstood. It's not that I won't report it because 'I know they won't fix it'. I wouldn't report it because I know about 3D modeling and programming. The only thing posting about that will do is have them reconsider releasing anything else in the future that may cause a 'problem'. Why do you think none of the console FF games had changing armor and such? You got it...clipping issues! Easier for them to fine tune one model with one set of gear, **** they make the one model, gear and all and not have to worry about it. I'd rather have a wide diversity of gear/hairstyles reflected on my character with some minor clipping than be forced to go through the game looking pretty much the same from point A to point B.

Your free to report anything you want and I'm of no mind to tell you what you can or can't report. I'm just saying be careful, because this issue isn't going away anytime soon and will just cause them to be more careful about content if too many people have issues with it.

Edited, Jul 9th 2013 8:49am by DragonBourne
#28 Jul 09 2013 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
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I'm personally not up in arms over it but to be honest it could be a little less obvious. I mean look at the screenshots in this thread. In the OP the pic with the ponytail clipping into her bare back, I mean come on. Thats just too obvious. She's not even wearing armor.
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#29 Jul 09 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Come on. Are you really comparing getting stuck in the environment and broken quests with the tip of your hair clipping through your back? You misunderstood.


All I was doing was pointing out your slippery slope fallacy man. I used an illustration that was absurd on purpose.

On the issue, I'd be fine if they removed the worst offending hairstyles or at least added some alternatives. Overall the character models are excellent and looks like they would only need some minor tweaks for some of the issues reported.

Edited, Jul 9th 2013 9:01am by reptiletim
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#30 Jul 09 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
I'm personally not up in arms over it but to be honest it could be a little less obvious. I mean look at the screenshots in this thread. In the OP the pic with the ponytail clipping into her bare back, I mean come on. Thats just too obvious. She's not even wearing armor.


Fair enough, but I still think it's being nit-picky. If it's as obvious as you say, I'm sure SE is aware of it anyhow. I'm just worried that too many people will gripe about too many little things and ruin the game as a whole. (I don't have to mention other games here for people to realize that it has happened in the past and probably will many times to come.) Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but please, try to be rational about things you find as an issue. I guess the good thing is the game must be pretty polished if this is the best someone could come up with. :P Thanks for listening.
#31 Jul 09 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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We have to gripe about everything. We have to.

People kept making excuses for SE in 1.0 and look where that got us.
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#32 Jul 09 2013 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
We have to gripe about everything. We have to.

People kept making excuses for SE in 1.0 and look where that got us.



Do you think once 2.0 is officially launched, 1.0 will be shoved under the rug, never to be mentioned or thought of again by the powers that be?

"1.0? What's that? The game has always been this awesome. We never make mistakes."

*Hair clips through back while sitting*
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#33 Jul 09 2013 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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I think its the little things that matter. If they cant stop hair from entering your back than how good will they be at end game mechanics are they gonna be simple because meh there ok ppl wont care? where is the line for them to care?

This is a MMO our characters are the point.. we connect we live and lvl them. If there glitchy than whats the point? Do we need to wait till our legs and arms are poking outta our gear? or our boobs sticking outta the chest plates? its all the same so they better get a handle on this be for it gets worse.
#34 Jul 09 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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silverhope wrote:
I think its the little things that matter. If they cant stop hair from entering your back than how good will they be at end game mechanics are they gonna be simple because meh there ok ppl wont care? where is the line for them to care?

This is a MMO our characters are the point.. we connect we live and lvl them. If there glitchy than whats the point? Do we need to wait till our legs and arms are poking outta our gear? or our boobs sticking outta the chest plates? its all the same so they better get a handle on this be for it gets worse.


No, I agree with you, they should totally fix it. It would bother me enough. But I know well enough long hair usually becomes an issue in games... so I stick to short hair most of the time.

Though, if you haven't noticed, when you equip helmets and such, the hair actually remains in tact and doesn't become another hairstyle (nor do you randomly become bald...) Which is important to me because helmets won't bother me so much.


Edited, Jul 9th 2013 11:26am by Stilivan
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#35 Jul 09 2013 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I think its the little things that matter. If they cant stop hair from entering your back than how good will they be at end game mechanics are they gonna be simple because meh there ok ppl wont care? where is the line for them to care?


Do you really think those things are equivalent?
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#36 Jul 09 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Stilivan wrote:

No, I agree with you, they should totally fix it. It would bother me enough. But I know well enough long hair usually becomes an issue in games... so I stick to short hair most of the time.

Though, if you haven't noticed, when you equip helmets and such, the hair actually remains in tact and doesn't become another hairstyle (nor do you randomly become bald...) Which is important to me because helmets won't bother me so much.




haha yea im happy no one is going bald. I like the girl in the pics i posted I will stick with her but it will cause some "uhg" moments like when she sprints her ponytail is pretty much gone. You would think it would go out and fly around nope goes right into the back again heh.
#37 Jul 09 2013 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I think its the little things that matter. If they cant stop hair from entering your back than how good will they be at end game mechanics are they gonna be simple because meh there ok ppl wont care? where is the line for them to care?


Do you really think those things are equivalent?


was a crazy example for a reason. But the way people are talking is that if its not game breaking it doesnt matter.. but thats not true..

Edited, Jul 9th 2013 11:32am by silverhope
#38 Jul 09 2013 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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silverhope wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I think its the little things that matter. If they cant stop hair from entering your back than how good will they be at end game mechanics are they gonna be simple because meh there ok ppl wont care? where is the line for them to care?


Do you really think those things are equivalent?


was a crazy example for a reason. But the way people are talking is that if its not game breaking it doesnt matter.. but thats not true..

Edited, Jul 9th 2013 11:32am by silverhope


I agree that it's worth giving feedback about anything you don't like. It's worth reporting anything you perceive as a bug. But there is definitely a hierarchy to these things, and this one should fall squarely into the "would be nice, but whatever" category Smiley: wink
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#39 Jul 09 2013 at 9:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
was a crazy example for a reason. But the way people are talking is that if its not game breaking it doesnt matter.. but thats not true..


I don't think it's so much that no one cares because it's not game breaking. I think it's more people realize that the effort and resources needed to make hair ideal are not currently worth what it would add to the game. Especially at a phase when a large portion of the feedback they are receiving is in regard to game changing/breaking (for some people) core mechanics.
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#40 Jul 09 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Have you seen the movie Brave? I know movies and games are done differently and not at all the same, but that has to be the most impressive CG hair I have ever seen. And they put a ton of effort into it. Honestly the hair clipping issues don't bother me, but in another decade or so, it'd be awesome to have that kind of detail in games.
#41 Jul 09 2013 at 9:56 AM Rating: Default
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This thread is proving to be amusing ...

i remember when i started gaming in the late 80s (yes im sure im older than most here) i never imagined in my wildest dreams that i will be able to play live with ppl 5000 miles away ...

THIS IS 2013
THIS IS Final Fantasy FOURTEEN 2.0 (i cried of joy when ff7 came out and i saw the graphics)
there are too many MMORPGs out there

YES we demand perfection from Square ENEX (i still call them squaresoft)

i went to that post and clicked like ^__^
#42 Jul 09 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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RedLeo wrote:
This thread is proving to be amusing ...

i remember when i started gaming in the late 80s (yes im sure im older than most here) i never imagined in my wildest dreams that i will be able to play live with ppl 5000 miles away ...

THIS IS 2013
THIS IS Final Fantasy FOURTEEN 2.0 (i cried of joy when ff7 came out and i saw the graphics)
there are too many MMORPGs out there

YES we demand perfection from Square ENEX (i still call them squaresoft)

i went to that post and clicked like ^__^


Not that I'm as old as you, but I remember back when FF7 was released, the graphics were AWESOME, but no one in their right mind thought they were realistic. Except for the CG cutscenes maybe... I think I actually referred to them as a "real scene!" I was a kid.
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#43 Jul 09 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Stilivan wrote:
RedLeo wrote:
This thread is proving to be amusing ...

i remember when i started gaming in the late 80s (yes im sure im older than most here) i never imagined in my wildest dreams that i will be able to play live with ppl 5000 miles away ...

THIS IS 2013
THIS IS Final Fantasy FOURTEEN 2.0 (i cried of joy when ff7 came out and i saw the graphics)
there are too many MMORPGs out there

YES we demand perfection from Square ENEX (i still call them squaresoft)

i went to that post and clicked like ^__^


Not that I'm as old as you, but I remember back when FF7 was released, the graphics were AWESOME, but no one in their right mind thought they were realistic. Except for the CG cutscenes maybe... I think I actually referred to them as a "real scene!" I was a kid.


It is impressive how much they've changed. Lots of baby steps, but with so many game makers contributing these baby steps it does add up to a lot of innovation.
#44 Jul 09 2013 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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Ulman wrote:
Have you seen the movie Brave? I know movies and games are done differently and not at all the same, but that has to be the most impressive CG hair I have ever seen. And they put a ton of effort into it. Honestly the hair clipping issues don't bother me, but in another decade or so, it'd be awesome to have that kind of detail in games.


Most movies/cutscenes don't actually render the hair. An artist goes in and draws the hair in each frame manually. Of course, this is becoming less and less these days, as workstations are getting powerful enough to do it in real time. Haven't see Brave, but that could be the case with it. Not sure though, just pointing this out.
#45 Jul 09 2013 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
We have to gripe about everything. We have to.

People kept making excuses for SE in 1.0 and look where that got us.


Well, it wasn't me. Look up some of my posts on 1.0 and you'll see. I was staunchly against just accepting that... thing...
#46 Jul 09 2013 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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I vehemently reject the attitude and assumption that "all games do this, it is widely accepted, stop complaining". I know hair can be rendered in real time. Yes it would take a lot of time and money to make sure each style worked with each armor, weapon, shield and race...hire a whole team to do it and make an option in the settings to turn off real time hair rendering if you are worried about weak systems. I am sure SE isn't going to be hurting for money as FFXIV is released. Why not make their product perfect? Details matter to me, and I doubt I am alone.
#47 Jul 09 2013 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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WhtxKorean wrote:
I vehemently reject the attitude and assumption that "all games do this, it is widely accepted, stop complaining". I know hair can be rendered in real time. Yes it would take a lot of time and money to make sure each style worked with each armor, weapon, shield and race...hire a whole team to do it and make an option in the settings to turn off real time hair rendering if you are worried about weak systems. I am sure SE isn't going to be hurting for money as FFXIV is released. Why not make their product perfect? Details matter to me, and I doubt I am alone.


I mean, yeah... they COULD spend their money on new content, new classes/jobs, and new zones... OR.. OPTION B, they could blow their load all over hiring a team of 3d hair stylists
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#48 Jul 09 2013 at 9:56 PM Rating: Default
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I mean, yeah... they COULD spend their money on new content, new classes/jobs, and new zones... OR.. OPTION B, they could blow their load all over hiring a team of 3d hair stylists


That is why I hired another team. You are assuming that something would be taken away by adding this new team. And I am assuming that nothing would be taken away by adding this new team. Of course they don't have unlimited resources, but not enough to make hair work as we would expect? Not sure about that.
#49 Jul 10 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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WhtxKorean wrote:
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I mean, yeah... they COULD spend their money on new content, new classes/jobs, and new zones... OR.. OPTION B, they could blow their load all over hiring a team of 3d hair stylists


That is why I hired another team. You are assuming that something would be taken away by adding this new team. And I am assuming that nothing would be taken away by adding this new team. Of course they don't have unlimited resources, but not enough to make hair work as we would expect? Not sure about that.


Money is taken away. Developers aren't free, and money spent making hair work perfectly is money NOT spent doing something else.

When you consider that the engine isn't capable of that level of physics simulation, that means that the engine itself needs to be modified to handle it on top of modifying the hair models themselves to behave within an untested engine.

This is not a simple matter. Would it be nice? Sure. Would I rather they spend their time doing something else? Yep.
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svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
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