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#52 Jul 10 2013 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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IMFW wrote:
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Can i get an example, everyone keeps telling me that jobs are better party play, how?? Do you guys look at all the abilities you can get? How is Jump better for end game parties then blood for blood? Dragoonfire dive is a 10 min recast for 250 dmg, Chaos thrust is 2.5 recast for 100 dmg , so longer cooldowns = better end game lol?? Im not seeing it at all, so please let me get some examples on how jobs have the upper hand in party play?

My stance is every class or job will be fine at any role you wish to play, at any point in the game, it just boils down to how you wanna play.


Why are you making comparisons to things that are paired together?

Why is Jump Better than Blood for Blood? You have both as a Dragoon. There's no competition. The 5 extra abilities you gain by level 50 from your job are additive onto your class.

So instead of comparing Blood for Blood to Jumps, you realize that not only can you use Jumps DURING Blood for blood, each on their own individual cooldown (Free of GDC) But it also pairs with another Dragoon-specifi Skill. Power Surge, which adds another 50% bonus damage, which stacks on other bonus damage. (30% Blood Surge + 20% Raging Strikes + 50% Power Surge.)

Because of this, you've increased your spike damage in away not available by any other class combinations, period. Thus, Dragoon is a superior damage Spec to Lancer.

Second Example:

Marauder to Warrior and Gladiator to Paladin.
Defiance and Shield Oath respectively are vastly superior hate tools which push both classes into more potent tanking roles.

These abilities compound upon, not replace, the abilities native to the class of origin. They accentuate the class in a matter the hones their role into a party to a fine point, and makes them superior than their class counterpart at doing so.

It's not that you can't deal decent damage as a Lancer. It's that you'll be dealing superior damage as a Dragoon, based off of both additional abilities and altered stats.
#53 Jul 10 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
My understandimg is that jobs augment the role your class plays in a group. THM is primarily magic damage dealing. But it's a class so you can give yourself healimg and support abilities you learned as a CNJ. Remember the role of THM is primarily magic damage though. When you equip the Black Mage stone it cuts off skills you learned as a CNJ but gives you a bigger spell list of....magic damage spells... So now your ability to deal magic damage has been focused and you lost the ability to heal and support in favor of increased ability to deal magic damage. That is how it augments the class.

Now, GLA is a tanking class. You equip the Paladin stone and you gain abilities that will help you tank. As CNJ you equip the White Mage job stone and you gain abilities that help you heal. You see where this is going.

I want to say jobs have better stats than classes for the kind of role they are made to play. Then there's job specific gear too. Remember there are powerful abilities only available as a job.

If you're after raw data numbers from comparisons between an ability from a class and a comparable ability from a job, I can't help you there as I dont run a parser or understand the meta-data on the battle system well enough. Feel free to do this yourself though, you seem like you really want to know and it would be of interest to the community.


I could be very wrong and change what i say, i thought if you level paladin you wont get any more abilities from gladiator passed level 30 is that true or false?
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#54 Jul 10 2013 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
IMFW wrote:
[

Can i get an example, everyone keeps telling me that jobs are better party play, how?? Do you guys look at all the abilities you can get? How is Jump better for end game parties then blood for blood? Dragoonfire dive is a 10 min recast for 250 dmg, Chaos thrust is 2.5 recast for 100 dmg , so longer cooldowns = better end game lol?? Im not seeing it at all, so please let me get some examples on how jobs have the upper hand in party play?

My stance is every class or job will be fine at any role you wish to play, at any point in the game, it just boils down to how you wanna play.


Why are you making comparisons to things that are paired together?

Why is Jump Better than Blood for Blood? You have both as a Dragoon. There's no competition. The 5 extra abilities you gain by level 50 from your job are additive onto your class.

So instead of comparing Blood for Blood to Jumps, you realize that not only can you use Jumps DURING Blood for blood, each on their own individual cooldown (Free of GDC) But it also pairs with another Dragoon-specifi Skill. Power Surge, which adds another 50% bonus damage, which stacks on other bonus damage. (30% Blood Surge + 20% Raging Strikes + 50% Power Surge.)

Because of this, you've increased your spike damage in away not available by any other class combinations, period. Thus, Dragoon is a superior damage Spec to Lancer.

Second Example:

Marauder to Warrior and Gladiator to Paladin.
Defiance and Shield Oath respectively are vastly superior hate tools which push both classes into more potent tanking roles.

These abilities compound upon, not replace, the abilities native to the class of origin. They accentuate the class in a matter the hones their role into a party to a fine point, and makes them superior than their class counterpart at doing so.

It's not that you can't deal decent damage as a Lancer. It's that you'll be dealing superior damage as a Dragoon, based off of both additional abilities and altered stats.



My bad lol, this whole time i thought you forfited those other abilities for the five job abilities i didn know they are just added to the class, it all makes sense now, thanks,
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#55 Jul 10 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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Edit: Ninjaed.

Anyways, you do suffer ability restrictions under Jobs. But no from your same class.

For example. A Lancer can equip abilities that are free to all classes (Gladiator, Conjurer, etc.). A Dragoon can only equip extra abilities from Archer and Maurader.

This further focuses the Job into a specific role, making it far more narrow of an approach to the more broad ability set of a class.

Edited, Jul 10th 2013 12:58pm by Hyrist
#56 Jul 10 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
IMFW wrote:


I could be very wrong and change what i say, i thought if you level paladin you wont get any more abilities from gladiator passed level 30 is that true or false?


False, Jobs have full access to their origonal Class's Abilities, regardless of level.

Edited, Jul 10th 2013 12:54pm by Hyrist


Yea this. Jobs just add a layer of abilities on top of a class.
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#57 Jul 10 2013 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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IMFW wrote:
boredenough wrote:
IMFW wrote:


Can i get an example, everyone keeps telling me that jobs are better party play, how?? Do you guys look at all the abilities you can get? How is Jump better for end game parties then blood for blood? Dragoonfire dive is a 10 min recast for 250 dmg, Chaos thrust is 2.5 recast for 100 dmg , so longer cooldowns = better end game lol?? Im not seeing it at all, so please let me get some examples on how jobs have the upper hand in party play?

My stance is every class or job will be fine at any role you wish to play, at any point in the game, it just boils down to how you wanna play.


Well, we haven't seen every Job ability just yet, but either way the job retains all its class abilities but gets more

Edited, Jul 10th 2013 12:31pm by boredenough



Iv never heard that, so the jobs get there abilities and all the abilities of there class? So paladin still gets all the gladiator abilties that are above level 30?

I don't know if it does. But if it doesn't it should(at least all the defensive ones) since Paladin is not a seperate entity from Gladiatior just a specialization.
#58 Jul 10 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with IMFW with leveling as a set "Job" is good as it lets you learn the best times and how to use those Job specific abilities, and leveling with it you get quite proficient at it. Much moreso imo than you would being tossed into an end game situation with these new JA's.

On the topic of Jobs being a skill tree spin off, "fine tuning" a class...

Who the @#%^ made Bard a spin-off of Archer. That is a giant cluster@#%^ if I've ever seen one. I want to be a Ranger dammit. I don't sing.

But every group that has an ARC will expect them to be a BRD for the delicious songs.

Edited, Jul 10th 2013 10:05am by FlixEffect
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#59 Jul 10 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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K that makes way more sense, people kept telling me how jobs where better, and it was makeing me think "how is these 5 abilities from the job better then the abilties from the class" but since you get them all, i see how it is better you get more abilties lol, thanks again guys.

Just wish it was alittle different from that, i love tanking but never really caried for paladins, but it looks like ill have to get used to it, id rather just be a gladiator, i dont know well see when i get to that point, it just feels like i have to be paladin.
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#60 Jul 10 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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Here, check out this site.

http://xivdb.com/

Until our database is up to date here at Zam, this site is a really good refrence for what abilities you'll be able to use. You'll note that the cross skills are not put under the job listing, so you'll have to piecemeal those together yourself. But this will give you a better idea what the native skillset for each Job and Class is, and what it can do.
#61 Jul 10 2013 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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IMFW wrote:
K that makes way more sense, people kept telling me how jobs where better, and it was makeing me think "how is these 5 abilities from the job better then the abilties from the class" but since you get them all, i see how it is better you get more abilties lol, thanks again guys.

Just wish it was alittle different from that, i love tanking but never really caried for paladins, but it looks like ill have to get used to it, id rather just be a gladiator, i dont know well see when i get to that point, it just feels like i have to be paladin.

You can still main gladiator and be **** efficient I imagine if you really maximize content specific builds. The problem would be convincing players that don't know you, why they would choose you over a paladin they know nothing about either. For the most difficult stuff.
#62 Jul 10 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Here, check out this site.

http://xivdb.com/

Until our database is up to date here at Zam, this site is a really good refrence for what abilities you'll be able to use. You'll note that the cross skills are not put under the job listing, so you'll have to piecemeal those together yourself. But this will give you a better idea what the native skillset for each Job and Class is, and what it can do.


Yeah thats a great website have it already booked marked,
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#63 Jul 10 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
IMFW wrote:
K that makes way more sense, people kept telling me how jobs where better, and it was makeing me think "how is these 5 abilities from the job better then the abilties from the class" but since you get them all, i see how it is better you get more abilties lol, thanks again guys.

Just wish it was alittle different from that, i love tanking but never really caried for paladins, but it looks like ill have to get used to it, id rather just be a gladiator, i dont know well see when i get to that point, it just feels like i have to be paladin.

You can still main gladiator and be **** efficient I imagine if you really maximize content specific builds. The problem would be convincing players that don't know you, why they would choose you over a paladin they know nothing about either. For the most difficult stuff.


True that would be tough lol, my favorit part of the game is crafting HQ items and materia melding, so that gives me alot of options to custamize my gear to fit to my play style, i feel it should be good.
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#64 Jul 10 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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FlixEffect wrote:
Who the @#%^ made Bard a spin-off of Archer. That is a giant cluster@#%^ if I've ever seen one. I want to be a Ranger dammit. I don't sing.

But every group that has an ARC will expect them to be a BRD for the delicious songs.


I agree, but for different reasons.

But yeah, it's completely ridiculous that they start players off being a ranged DPS character and then at 30 have them give up their role as DPS, become a support character, they even have the healer Limit Break.

Ranged DPS is such a popular class that I'm surprised a Hunter/Ranger hasn't been announced. It's a shame because Archer is fun to play but you know you're going to end up turning into a class you don't like at 30+.

Keep in mind the Bard enthusiasts are also annoyed, who want to be a musical/instrument class, not an Archer with a few lame AoE spells.

You got rated down multiple times as will I, but don't worry - most of the playerbase if they were being honest does not like the implementation of Bard.

Edited, Jul 10th 2013 5:11pm by Killua125
#65 Jul 10 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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The Bard is an odd case, but in FFXI, it was horrible, IMO. There was a reason hardly anyone wanted to play Bard.

It kind of solves the problem by giving them the ability to DD, and I'm sure once Musketeer is announced it will fill the void for the pure ranged DD. Who knows, they may have Ranger as the second job from Archer.
#66 Jul 10 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
FlixEffect wrote:
Who the @#%^ made Bard a spin-off of Archer. That is a giant cluster@#%^ if I've ever seen one. I want to be a Ranger dammit. I don't sing.

But every group that has an ARC will expect them to be a BRD for the delicious songs.


I agree, but for different reasons.

But yeah, it's completely ridiculous that they start players off being a ranged DPS character and then at 30 have them give up their role as DPS, become a support character, they even have the healer Limit Break.

Ranged DPS is such a popular class that I'm surprised a Hunter/Ranger hasn't been announced. It's a shame because Archer is fun to play but you know you're going to end up turning into a class you don't like at 30+.

Keep in mind the Bard enthusiasts are also annoyed, who want to be a musical/instrument class, not an Archer with a few lame AoE spells.

You got rated down multiple times as will I, but don't worry - most of the playerbase if they were being honest does not like the implementation of Bard.

Edited, Jul 10th 2013 5:11pm by Killua125

Alot of jobs are popular or wanted. The game needed a support job more than a DPS. Could they or should they have made a music based class for bard to branch off of? Sure, but it is what is.

I can assure you if the playerbase got what jobs they want implemented. Thief, Dark Knight, Ninja, Samurai, or Red Mage is wanted more than Ranger. Unless the game dies quickly, a ton of more jobs and classes will come eventually and I'm sure Ranger will be in at some point.

I want an elemental/magic based great sword wielder based around the sword knights from FFT. Preferably a job but I'd settle for a class....
#67 Jul 10 2013 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Since we're on the topic of Jobs, is there a chart anywhere that shows which Classes Jobs can borrow abilities from?
#68 Jul 10 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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FlixEffect wrote:
I agree with IMFW with leveling as a set "Job" is good as it lets you learn the best times and how to use those Job specific abilities, and leveling with it you get quite proficient at it. Much moreso imo than you would being tossed into an end game situation with these new JA's.

On the topic of Jobs being a skill tree spin off, "fine tuning" a class...

Who the @#%^ made Bard a spin-off of Archer. That is a giant cluster@#%^ if I've ever seen one. I want to be a Ranger dammit. I don't sing.

But every group that has an ARC will expect them to be a BRD for the delicious songs.

Edited, Jul 10th 2013 10:05am by FlixEffect


So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.
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#69 Jul 10 2013 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Dont forget they will probably raise the level cap at some point which means there will be more skills and traits.
#70 Jul 10 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.
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#71 Jul 10 2013 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.


I find the idea that someone else "allow or don't allow" you to play as something YOU want to play in a game so silly. Just group with people a little less narrow-minded or make your own LS. Of course, unless you want to do something stupid like Melee THM. It is somewhat obvious that Archer's second job will be Ranger but I'm sure it will have its advantages and reasons for being added to a party.
But I can see this trend going with Arcanist too, "Hey switch to SCH instead of SMN to heal us, we have enough DDs".
#72 Jul 10 2013 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.

Same problem existed in XI if you had both ranger and bard leveled. And I'll tell the that guild the same thing I told them in XI.

"I was straightforward when joining that my main was Ranger and I did not want to do Bard in endgame events, you agreed. I understand you are short on Bard this evening. However, I will not play Bard as I told you before."

Any respectable good guild will have enough flexible members. Any respectable guild will not go back on their word or punish you for being upfront and sticking to your stance. And if they do maybe it's time to find a better guild.

You can always reinforce your stance by not unlocking bard gear or skills.
#73 Jul 10 2013 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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I'm big on team play, so if it's best that I come a particular job, I usually don't mind. Though, I think I should be able to request a change when I feel like a need a change. Being a well rounded player has way more advantages. Starting off a team relationship obstinate would be too taxing for me. I can see refusing to play a particular job for a pick up party. If I'm unwilling to do things in an LS, I probably shouldn't been there.
#74 Jul 10 2013 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
svlyons wrote:
Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.

Same problem existed in XI if you had both ranger and bard leveled. And I'll tell the that guild the same thing I told them in XI.

"I was straightforward when joining that my main was Ranger and I did not want to do Bard in endgame events, you agreed. I understand you are short on Bard this evening. However, I will not play Bard as I told you before."

Any respectable good guild will have enough flexible members. Any respectable guild will not go back on their word or punish you for being upfront and sticking to your stance. And if they do maybe it's time to find a better guild.

You can always reinforce your stance by not unlocking bard gear or skills.


As long as that flexible member is not you? Smiley: tongue
#75 Jul 10 2013 at 11:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Probably redundant now, but a useful way I learnt the difference:
Class: 10 extra abilities come from any cross-classable abilities you can equip.
Job: 5 extra abilities from your job (that are specifically designed to enhance your party role), and 5 abilities from your 2 "related" classes (1 is your secondary unlock class, 1 is an additional related class).
#76 Jul 11 2013 at 12:24 AM Rating: Default
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Jujubah wrote:
svlyons wrote:
Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.


I find the idea that someone else "allow or don't allow" you to play as something YOU want to play in a game so silly. Just group with people a little less narrow-minded or make your own LS. Of course, unless you want to do something stupid like Melee THM. It is somewhat obvious that Archer's second job will be Ranger but I'm sure it will have its advantages and reasons for being added to a party.
But I can see this trend going with Arcanist too, "Hey switch to SCH instead of SMN to heal us, we have enough DDs".


It's kind of silly to blame the players for a horrible game system. The job/class system is frankly not good at all.

It's natural in MMORPGs for a party to want to maximize efficiency. Why are you leveling up, acquiring gear? To maximize efficiency. It's silly when that's the whole goal of the game, to downgrade yourself to the Archer class for party play. It's also very selfish.

That said you are right about Arcanist which will likely be asked to play Scholar 99.9% of the time. Square Enix needs to abolish the job soul stone system asap and come up with something better.

and if a Ranger branch is added, you will also be seen as selfish if you play it instead of Bard at times, most likely. The whole thing just all around sucks.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 2:26am by Killua125
#77 Jul 11 2013 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Hatamaz wrote:
sandpark wrote:
svlyons wrote:
Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.

Same problem existed in XI if you had both ranger and bard leveled. And I'll tell the that guild the same thing I told them in XI.

"I was straightforward when joining that my main was Ranger and I did not want to do Bard in endgame events, you agreed. I understand you are short on Bard this evening. However, I will not play Bard as I told you before."

Any respectable good guild will have enough flexible members. Any respectable guild will not go back on their word or punish you for being upfront and sticking to your stance. And if they do maybe it's time to find a better guild.

You can always reinforce your stance by not unlocking bard gear or skills.


As long as that flexible member is not you? Smiley: tongue

Exactly! I don't mind coming as another job, as long as the job wasn't bard. Do you do things even though they go against your principles to make others happy or peer pressure?

I make exceptions to do that when it's something really important. I never hurt feelings intentionally unless I know that being honest is better for someone in the long run. But when it comes to a leisure activity like a game whose purpose is to relax and have fun? **** yes, I won't bend an inch if I was honest and it's something I strongly feel about.
#78 Jul 11 2013 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
Jujubah wrote:
svlyons wrote:
Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.


I find the idea that someone else "allow or don't allow" you to play as something YOU want to play in a game so silly. Just group with people a little less narrow-minded or make your own LS. Of course, unless you want to do something stupid like Melee THM. It is somewhat obvious that Archer's second job will be Ranger but I'm sure it will have its advantages and reasons for being added to a party.
But I can see this trend going with Arcanist too, "Hey switch to SCH instead of SMN to heal us, we have enough DDs".


It's kind of silly to blame the players for a horrible game system. The job/class system is frankly not good at all.

It's natural in MMORPGs for a party to want to maximize efficiency. Why are you leveling up, acquiring gear? To maximize efficiency. It's silly when that's the whole goal of the game, to downgrade yourself to the Archer class for party play. It's also very selfish.

That said you are right about Arcanist which will likely be asked to play Scholar 99.9% of the time. Square Enix needs to abolish the job soul stone system asap and come up with something better.

and if a Ranger branch is added, you will also be seen as selfish if you play it instead of Bard at times, most likely. The whole thing just all around sucks.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 2:26am by Killua125


I think it might be too late to change that now. I don't think it is that bad, it is just that now the party roles are unequal. It is selfish to go Ranger instead of Bard because right now Bard is the ONLY support job. If for example, CNJ gets Geomancer to focus on buffs that are as good as BRD's or PUG gets Dancer as a healer that uses TP instead of MP, it can be viable for the party to use a Ranger or a Summoner instead of a BRD or SCH. Of course, it has to be very balanced as to not create a situation where X healer or Y buffer is always the best and the min-maxing only picks them.
#79 Jul 11 2013 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
svlyons wrote:
Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.


Deja Vu all over again???? I swear I made the worst mistake of my ffxi career by forgetting to /anon while on my 75 BRD......THE ONE TIME EVER! My LS was like "OMFG WHY TF DIDNT YOU TELL US?!?!?" I dont think I logged in for about a week or two >_>
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#80 Jul 11 2013 at 6:34 AM Rating: Decent
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IMFW wrote:
K that makes way more sense, people kept telling me how jobs where better, and it was makeing me think "how is these 5 abilities from the job better then the abilties from the class" but since you get them all, i see how it is better you get more abilties lol, thanks again guys.

Just wish it was alittle different from that, i love tanking but never really caried for paladins, but it looks like ill have to get used to it, id rather just be a gladiator, i dont know well see when i get to that point, it just feels like i have to be paladin.

Well, you could still choose to play Marauder/Warrior. Because they are every inch as tanky as Gladiators/Paladins, just with different mechanics.
(Although People on the beta forums obviously have Problems wrapping their heads around that idea. Maybe it`s because it takes some time to
fully understand the synergies between Warrior main and subclass abilities; Paladin mechanics, being straightforward, are "easier" to understand).

P.S., edit: Btw, Marauders/Warriors are classified as tanks, not DDs, in the content finder. They share the heaviest armor with Gladiators/Paladins;
and then they look like a huge towering looming sausage of steel.

http://privateerpress.com/files/products/iron-kingdoms/cygnar-city-guard.png

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 8:43am by Rinsui
#81 Jul 11 2013 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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'My LS diddn't let me go on...'

That would be irrelevant, honestly. Duty Finder fills people in anonymously by role. Meaning if a Ranger Queues up to the Duty Finder looking for a group, he'll eventually find one in the role he wants. He just has to be ok with finding a pug, or finding people that share his views. No big deal.
#82 Jul 11 2013 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Jujubah wrote:
svlyons wrote:
Wint wrote:
So wait until the Ranger job is added to the game? We already know two jobs can spin from one class so it wouldn't be unheard of for RNG to be another job that comes from ARC down the road.

My prediction: Archers will complain that they're never allowed to come to end game events as Ranger because their shell makes them always come as Bard.

I find the idea that someone else "allow or don't allow" you to play as something YOU want to play in a game so silly. Just group with people a little less narrow-minded or make your own LS. Of course, unless you want to do something stupid like Melee THM. It is somewhat obvious that Archer's second job will be Ranger but I'm sure it will have its advantages and reasons for being added to a party.
But I can see this trend going with Arcanist too, "Hey switch to SCH instead of SMN to heal us, we have enough DDs".

It's kind of silly to blame the players for a horrible game system. The job/class system is frankly not good at all.

Then you must consider FFXI to have a "horrible game system". Because, as others have mentioned, this problem happened in FFXI even with there being absolutely no relationship between jobs.

The only difference here is that leveling RNG (assuming it becomes a 2nd job off of ARC) forces you to have BRD also leveled. In FFXI, you wouldn't have both RNG and BRD leveled unless you actively leveled them separately. I suppose you could simply not do the quest to unlock BRD and getting any job specific gear and skills.
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#83 Jul 11 2013 at 8:04 AM Rating: Default
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Except if you level one job, you automatically have another job leveled.

So that's not like FFXI at all and the problem wasn't present in FFXI. WTF?
#84 Jul 11 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Except if you level one job, you automatically have another job leveled.

So that's not like FFXI at all and the problem wasn't present in FFXI. WTF?


You have to actually do quests to unlock that soul and the abilities that go with it, so it's still a conscious choice.

Either way, some free companies are going to make due with whatever is available and others are going to recruit specific jobs or expect people to play certain jobs.

Taking away the player's flexibility is not going to change that in any way. Either your group respects your desire to play what you feel like playing, or they'll replace you with some one who can play the needed job.


"I don't have that unlocked" is only relevant if you dont have the spine to day "I don't want to play as that."

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 12:22pm by KarlHungis
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#85 Jul 11 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Except if you level one job, you automatically have another job leveled.

So that's not like FFXI at all and the problem wasn't present in FFXI. WTF?

I don't want to seem smartass but you're not making sense.

FFXI- Leveled seperately, didn't level bard no problem, if you did get the peer pressure.
FFXIV- Leveled together, didn't unlock job/gear/kills for bard is no problem, if you did get peer pressure.

Same problem existed there if you had both jobs. You don't have to unlock bard here either.
#86 Jul 11 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Except if you level one job, you automatically have another job leveled.

So that's not like FFXI at all and the problem wasn't present in FFXI. WTF?

Are you and I talking about the same problem? Because the problem did exist in FFXI in spite of how the job system was implemented. It's a community issue that players have to learn to deal with.
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#87 Jul 11 2013 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Exactly! I don't mind coming as another job, as long as the job wasn't bard. Do you do things even though they go against your principles to make others happy or peer pressure?

I make exceptions to do that when it's something really important. I never hurt feelings intentionally unless I know that being honest is better for someone in the long run. But when it comes to a leisure activity like a game whose purpose is to relax and have fun? **** yes, I won't bend an inch if I was honest and it's something I strongly feel about.


Then why did you lvl bard at all? I come from the angle and mindset that if there is a night that my free company needs me to come as a certain job that I have leveled I'll do it because I want to actually be a useful member to the group to go have fun and get things done. If there is a job I don't like, I'm not going to level it so therefore I'll never get asked to come as that job. Of course there will be times I want to go as another job just to have a change, and I'm sure those opportunities will arise.

It's not about a group "making" me go as a job I don't want to. It's about what are we going to need tonight to get through whatever content we're about to take on. I guess maybe I'm just that flexible player that you talk about. I just think it's selfish if a player absolutely refuses to help the group because of game "principles"??? that they won't go on a job that the group needs and is the only one that has it leveled and is available at the time.
#88Killua125, Posted: Jul 11 2013 at 10:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Here's what I'm saying.
#89 Jul 11 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Here's what I'm saying.


FF14: If you're on level 50 Summoner, your whole party KNOWS you have Scholar, and they WILL ask you to switch to be a healer.


Edited, Jul 11th 2013 12:40pm by Killua125


Not 100% true.. arcanist + Thm = summoner arcanist +cnj = scholar ( im assuming they are the matches) so if somone never levels there cnj to 15 than no they will not have scholar.
#90 Jul 11 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Here's what I'm saying.

FF14: If you're a level 50 Summoner, and you unlock Scholar, you WILL have a level 50 Scholar.

FF11: If you are a level 75 Summoner, and you unlocked Scholar, it's level 1.

FF14: If you're on level 50 Summoner, your whole party KNOWS you have Scholar, and they WILL ask you to switch to be a healer.

FF11: If you're on a level 75 Summoner, nobody knows what level your Scholar is. It could be 1.

I'm really tired so don't make me explain further and defend it. I really don't care if you wanna defend it.

Edited, Jul 11th 2013 12:40pm by Killua125



That's what you're saying, but this is what you should be meaning.

You have a level 50 Arcanist. Period.

You unlock Scholar and Summoner, both separate modes for your Arcanist.

The mods just happen to be called jobs. You never really stop being an Arcanist, you're just specializing a part of Arcanist you couldn't fully utilize without the Scholar or Summoner Forms.

Jobs serve the function of Class Mods or Skill Trees.

You're trying to draw an analogy to FFXI when there is none. There were no classes in FFXI. You can't aptly compare them. Nor can you consider Jobs a core separating Component. Characters are defined first by their Class, then by the Job Stone they equip. Not the other way around.

#91 Jul 11 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I'm really tired so don't make me explain further and defend it. I really don't care if you wanna defend it.

No one is forcing you to do anything. You're trying to argue that an issue is due to game design. I think it's a people problem.
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#92 Jul 11 2013 at 11:01 AM Rating: Default
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Hatamaz wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Exactly! I don't mind coming as another job, as long as the job wasn't bard. Do you do things even though they go against your principles to make others happy or peer pressure?

I make exceptions to do that when it's something really important. I never hurt feelings intentionally unless I know that being honest is better for someone in the long run. But when it comes to a leisure activity like a game whose purpose is to relax and have fun? **** yes, I won't bend an inch if I was honest and it's something I strongly feel about.


Then why did you lvl bard at all? I come from the angle and mindset that if there is a night that my free company needs me to come as a certain job that I have leveled I'll do it because I want to actually be a useful member to the group to go have fun and get things done. If there is a job I don't like, I'm not going to level it so therefore I'll never get asked to come as that job. Of course there will be times I want to go as another job just to have a change, and I'm sure those opportunities will arise.

It's not about a group "making" me go as a job I don't want to. It's about what are we going to need tonight to get through whatever content we're about to take on. I guess maybe I'm just that flexible player that you talk about. I just think it's selfish if a player absolutely refuses to help the group because of game "principles"??? that they won't go on a job that the group needs and is the only one that has it leveled and is available at the time.

I leveled bard because I like experience points parties on it.

No selfish is everyone else not having leveled bard. And then trying to force someone who has informed them they don't do bard endgame, but they will gladly help on some other jobs besides bard.

If sacrificing your beliefs or idea of fun for the group is meaningful to you, that's your opinion.

My opinion is my own. I said I would make exceptions just not on bard. But I'm not in the habit of doing leisure activities I find no enjoyment in to make others happy.
If that makes me a selfish prick, jerk, or just a genuine person. I guess I'll just live with it.
#93 Jul 11 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Reading the last bit of this threads reminds me why i never care for end game, so many up tight people. No one is willing to try different things and everything is "set in stone" to them, but hey its the nature of the beast i guess. Thats the main reason ill run my own LS and Free company so i can be a level 50 gladiator tank, just dont care for paladin that much. GoldTeam for life!!
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#94 Jul 11 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Default
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Not having the second job unlocked and with skills will 100% be considered "gimp" by most of the community.
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