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#1 Jul 12 2013 at 2:59 AM Rating: Excellent
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.
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#2 Jul 12 2013 at 3:08 AM Rating: Good
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IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


#1. Archers don't do very much DPS, so it's either people suck at tanking or SE still hasn't gotten threat down
#2. Archers kite adds. When you kite, you slow/bind the mob and run/sprint while dumping arrows in to them to kill the mob without stressing the healer who is keeping you (the melee) alive.
#3. See #1^

This is not like FFXI. It is not designed to "let the tank get threat first!" and ranged dps is not supposed to stand in one spot and get hit like fools.

SE needs to implement abilities from WoW's Hunter like Feign Death (play dead, monster runs back to tank) and Misdirection (think trick attack, but for Archer).

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 5:09am by Transmigration
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#3 Jul 12 2013 at 5:07 AM Rating: Good
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IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


This can be said about any class really (taking hate away from tank), archers might have the slight advantage being we can bind and move away. When this usually happens the player might be new to the game or not, tell then that what they are doing is a detriment to the group. If said player continues doing this through out the run kindly explain in open chat to the healer that the said play is leet and can solo anything so don't toss them any heals. When they die, hopefully they learn their lesson.

You will find this with any class, don't hate archers ( i play one ) just because they are the ones you are seeing doing this the most.
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#4 Jul 12 2013 at 5:36 AM Rating: Good
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This is not a arc problem its a DPS issue where the players think they can just hit stuff and live. When I heal instances I tell people " let tank pull and get some hate for you start attacking and make sure to focus on the marked target . If you don't I will not heal you"

People need to learn so letting a few people die who don't like to listen is worth it. They can't just assume people will bust there butts to save them cuz there being bad players .

Also there is no kiting in instances other than maybe adds from certain boss fights . Trash mobd should all stay near the tank unless there being slept by a cnj or them.

This is how things are in most MMOs and its why I take extream measures to teach DPS that its not ok to target your own mob and pull hate.

Heck even as a healer I need to wait a few seconds for the tank to get decent aggro before I can heal or I will steal hate. Everyone just needs to start paying attention and work as a team.
#5 Jul 12 2013 at 5:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


#1. Archers don't do very much DPS, so it's either people suck at tanking or SE still hasn't gotten threat down
#2. Archers kite adds. When you kite, you slow/bind the mob and run/sprint while dumping arrows in to them to kill the mob without stressing the healer who is keeping you (the melee) alive.
#3. See #1^

This is not like FFXI. It is not designed to "let the tank get threat first!" and ranged dps is not supposed to stand in one spot and get hit like fools.

SE needs to implement abilities from WoW's Hunter like Feign Death (play dead, monster runs back to tank) and Misdirection (think trick attack, but for Archer).

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 5:09am by Transmigration


So you think Flash should affect mobs looking at the ARC and not the tank? I disagree completely. Let the tank run it, get everything looking it and Flash, then DPS to your heart's content. I agree with the OP, but for any DD. Let the Tank do their job before you start spamming your ****. If you give them that extra 10 seconds at the beginning you can pretty much be assured they'll keep hate through the fight.

Kiting is helpful in boss fights where the adds spawn all over the place and the tank can't run around flashing/shield lobbing them all. Kiting is not necessary in trash groups where if done correctly are over and done without anyone else getting hit.
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#6 Jul 12 2013 at 5:52 AM Rating: Good
Transmigration wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


#1. Archers don't do very much DPS, so it's either people suck at tanking or SE still hasn't gotten threat down
#2. Archers kite adds. When you kite, you slow/bind the mob and run/sprint while dumping arrows in to them to kill the mob without stressing the healer who is keeping you (the melee) alive.
#3. See #1^

This is not like FFXI. It is not designed to "let the tank get threat first!" and ranged dps is not supposed to stand in one spot and get hit like fools.

SE needs to implement abilities from WoW's Hunter like Feign Death (play dead, monster runs back to tank) and Misdirection (think trick attack, but for Archer).

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 5:09am by Transmigration


Wint beat me to it while I was getting breakfast >:O lol

The underlined part concerns me. This IS a let the tank get threat first game. At least a Flash/Overpower, or a Shield Lob/Tomahawk. It may not be "wait for provoke, flash, and a few swings" or "wait for 3 sunder armors" but you still should wait for at least that initial tank aggro. If you are NOT kiting adds and you pull aggro you should do your best to bind/slow the mob to allow the tank to get aggro/hate/threat back while not putting extra strain on the healer. You have to be careful how you say things or you'll have people thinking that its ok to drag a mob halfway across the map, possibly running into more mobs while the tank is chasing them TRYING to get threat back.

I agree on hate manipulation though. Archer is tactical class in general so a low level hate management tool would definitely be welcome.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 7:53am by Seraphknight777
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#7 Jul 12 2013 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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My favorite is when tanks can't hold hate on but one target and take every opportunity to bust the slept mob I kept from hitting the healer only to let the mob keep hitting the healer. There is a broad range of player skill in the game and it typically takes a few pulls to know what you're dealing with and adapt. But I've had kitted out tanks that appear to know what they're doing (instance mechanics, etc.) and refuse to try to hold any group agro--not even keeping heal agro off the CNJ. Tanks: there are packs of mobs in every dungeon in the game currently that are perfect for AoE rotations, not every one (DPS needs to learn that!), but there are some so learn to manage group hate.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 7:53am by Krycis
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#8 Jul 12 2013 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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Threat's fine. Dog is absolutely right when he says the tank should initiate hate - as the hate cap is so high there's no real way you're going to cap a fight out.

So yes, give the Tank a moment to establish a head start, and don't criticize SE over a mechanic if you don't understand it.

It's very possible to out-pace your tank when it comes to hate and have it be entirely your own fault. If you're not attacking the tank's direct target and the tank isn't meeting it's skills and combos correctly (Or has a poor damage weapon) then you're going to see a monster turn towards you.

Thankfully GLD shares its Provoke ability - which flat out pulls you to the top of the hate list (by a factor of 1 damage worth, however.) So it's an instant catch-up button if they fall behind. However, it's a level 22 Gladiator skills so that will have to be leveled a bit to obtain it.

Also keep in mind that your DoT skills also generate enmity for their DoT each tic.

So yeah, if there's a Bard/Archer spamming Windbite, Venomous Bite, Bloodletter every cooldown on top of their normal rotation, it's quite possible for them to outpace the Tank if they initiated. So giving the tank a brief moment to engage the mob and generate a hate lead is very helpful.


To Reiterate, this is not FFXI, there is no effective hate cap. If you're worried about pulling hate, give your tank a moment to get a lead on hate. If you're having to kite the mob you're fighting because you decided to engage before the tank, I fully endorse a healer from 'missing you' and focusing on where the hate and heals should be going. I'm known for pulling things off of tanks, but I typically chose the targets I know I can finish solo first. (Making use of my Life Surge and Bloodbath which would just sit on cooldown otherwise.)

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 9:00am by Hyrist
#9 Jul 12 2013 at 6:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree, tanking in this game is not as simple as it may seem, there are chances for the tank to spectacularly bad and chances for them to be amazing.

One run on Haukke Manor, the tank ended every fight with full MP, and maybe flashed once out of ever 2-3 groups of mobs we fought.

Another, the tank kept up a Flash rotation, stunned AOE moves of the Maidens, and made my job as healer almost guiltily easy.
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#10 Jul 12 2013 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I have seen tanks that could pull and keep aggro on everything even if the other player DPS immediately, I have also seen tanks that couldn't control more then one mob and everything in between.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 9:06am by Mopdaddy
#11 Jul 12 2013 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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It's really a simple fix. Ask them to stop and if they don't let them die.
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#12 Jul 12 2013 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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I know hate from cures is half that of hate for damage, but I don't know how it's distributed through multiple monsters (whether it's straight application or divided among.)

Either case, it does not hurt to wait until the first flash goes off before you do anything to assist the tank.

Of course, I don't, as a Dragoon I peg a low-HP monster and try to kill it immediately, as I have my own stun, damage reduction, and self-healing.
#13 Jul 12 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Mopdaddy wrote:
I have seen tanks that could pull and keep aggro on everything even if the other player DPS immediately, I have also seen tanks that couldn't control more then one mob and everything in between.


It all depends on how much the tank blows at once, if you engage first, the tank has to force themselves to catch up. And, honestly, what's the rush? Dungeons are are on 90 minute timer and time completed does not effect drop rates. Its unnecessarily stressful on the tank for no reason, especially if they're new or learning as the newer dungeons are designed for.
#14 Jul 12 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Ahhh yes, my very first duty finder experience. The ARC pulls hate off the tank in Ifrit. The PLD spends the remainder of the fight chasing Ifrit, while no one helped me with the nail. I figured he'd help kill nail then go back to chasing Ifrit to regain hate. At least the ARC kited quite well...
#15 Jul 12 2013 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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I ran tam tara the other day and had issues with an archer running in and spamming abilities on mobs, which would subsequently turn on the healer (me). On the one hand, the tank asked the archer to only attack targeted mobs, but on the other hand, it's not like the tank was being very communicative and marking mobs. We were in a DF party, but the tank was acting like she was in her end game ls and everyone just knew what to do. The tank left, we got a new tank, and then we cleared the dungeon without a problem. The moral of the story is that sometimes all that's needed is a little polite communication.

Although, some people are just knuckleheads...
#16 Jul 12 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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People will figure it out eventually, but it will be a rough start to Beta 4. Some people will need to time to adjust to the idea that the tank should run in first and Flash everything before they can attack. As it is, I've ran into people who have worn level 5 gear and the wrong type of equipment. I've intentionally pulled hate off the tank to keep them from being overwhelmed due to those aforementioned reasons and have gotten chewed out for it. The tank ended up dying later from grabbing too many mobs. If you carry the right cross class skills, you can temporarily tank something as a DPS without involving the healer.

So yes, some of the DPS are a bit behind the learning curve. Then again, that can be said about any role.
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#17 Jul 12 2013 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Let the Tank do their job before you start spamming your sh*t.


I would support this sentence getting added to the Auto-translator!
#18 Jul 12 2013 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Reading this thread just makes me love tanking even more, i love the thrill of first man in and last man out!
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#19 Jul 12 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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One thing I have worked into my move set, instead of just overpowering everything the whole time (which works, just wears tp down fast), is quick switching back and forth when mobs are in close. Start with a heavy swing on main mob targeted, then switch to whatever is closest and hit them with a skull sunder, and hit the main mob again with whatever the lvl 3 combo move is. It took me a few rounds to get comfortable switching targets with ps3 controller, but I'm actually pretty good at it now.

The number one thing that bug me the most is when somebody pulls group instead of me. It's just foolish, and it doesn't accomplish anything aside from making you look like *********

A distant second would be when someone is attacking their own mob. I don't mind this as much, because I feel like it's my duty to switch over to that target to make sure it's on me anyways, but it is a little annoying. I'm sure this would be a much bigger problem in the endgame, hopefully people will have learned by then.
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#20 Jul 12 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Some very good tips here for new archers like myself. I learned a lesson just yesterday. Hit the mob the tank hits lol.

I've grown to love archer during this beta phase so I'm happy find any tips I can to improve.
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#21 Jul 12 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
Transmigration wrote:
#1. Archers don't do very much DPS, so it's either people suck at tanking or SE still hasn't gotten threat down
#2. Archers kite adds. When you kite, you slow/bind the mob and run/sprint while dumping arrows in to them to kill the mob without stressing the healer who is keeping you (the melee) alive.
#3. See #1^


SE may very well have some work to do on the threat system. However, no fix to enmity changes the fact that if you, as the ARC, are standing a fair distance away from the tank and mobs, pull hate on one or more of them, then start running away from the tank... He won't be able to get hate back right away because the mobs(s) are out of range.

Transmigration wrote:
This is not like FFXI. It is not designed to "let the tank get threat first!" and ranged dps is not supposed to stand in one spot and get hit like fools.


How is it designed then? Does the take have a nuclear ******* of spammable, AOE high-enmity building moves that target adds across a wide range? No? Then he needs to be able to establish hate on all mobs early in the fight. If you allow him to do that, then you get to stand off to the side and merrily rain your arrows upon the poor enemies, thus not looking like a fool.

Transmigration wrote:
SE needs to implement abilities from WoW's Hunter like Feign Death (play dead, monster runs back to tank) and Misdirection (think trick attack, but for Archer).


I agree with you on this. I would argue that any light-armor wearing job should have at least one hate-shedding ability other than "Sprint and de-aggro."

SillyHawk wrote:
This can be said about any class really (taking hate away from tank), archers might have the slight advantage being we can bind and move away. When this usually happens the player might be new to the game or not, tell then that what they are doing is a detriment to the group. If said player continues doing this through out the run kindly explain in open chat to the healer that the said play is leet and can solo anything so don't toss them any heals. When they die, hopefully they learn their lesson.

You will find this with any class, don't hate archers ( i play one ) just because they are the ones you are seeing doing this the most.


I probably should have clarified a little more in my OP. I know that there are good, excellent, mediocre and terrible players at every role. Problem is, most people who play MMO's go the DD route and come on, who doesn't think it's awesome to have a bow and arrow to rain merciless punishment upon your foes? My post is directed at the masses who won't take the time to learn their jobs properly, or decide they don't like that style anyway. Lowest common denominator and all that.

I did offer pointers to the ARC in the particular run I am referring to. I got a bunch of "w/e" and "Don't worry about it."

silverhope wrote:
This is not a arc problem its a DPS issue where the players think they can just hit stuff and live. When I heal instances I tell people " let tank pull and get some hate for you start attacking and make sure to focus on the marked target . If you don't I will not heal you"


Agreed, and as well you should.

silverhope wrote:
Also there is no kiting in instances other than maybe adds from certain boss fights . Trash mobs should all stay near the tank unless there being slept by a cnj or them.


This was happening throughout the entire Copperbell Mines run. ARC would run in way ahead of tank, spam AOE, and start running down birdges and tunnels, aggroing more mobs and running further.
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#22 Jul 12 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to take a lot of Archer aggro for this one, but: As a healer, the tank is my first priority! If the archer runs in with arrows blazing, and doesn't allow the tank to grab a sufficient amount of hate, then, I'm sorry, but the archer is going to die. The life of a healer is completely dependent upon the tank and, I'm sorry, but as long as the tank can keep aggro and slowly beat down the boss, the instance will be won every time, with out without an archer.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 8:33pm by Lorielll
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#23 Jul 12 2013 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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As a lancer, I don't mind side tanking some of the small mobs. It helps keep monsters off the Healer, honestly, as sometimes the tank just does not have the ability to maintain a crowd's attention without exhausting himself. And honestly, I don't mind taking a few hits to my face. I've got Spirit Surge and Blood Bath, they're wasted cool-downs if I don't get to use them. (And they're VERY helpful in situations in which say, the healer dies because they decided to sit pretty in the electrified water. The Tank and I had to finish that fight with the enemy from half health.)

I don't flee from monsters that walk up to me and want to smack me in my face, if I'm standing right next to the tank. Unless of course Elusive Jump is available, then I'll hit that to dump hate.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 1:23pm by Hyrist
#24 Jul 12 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Default
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Seraphknight777 wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


#1. Archers don't do very much DPS, so it's either people suck at tanking or SE still hasn't gotten threat down
#2. Archers kite adds. When you kite, you slow/bind the mob and run/sprint while dumping arrows in to them to kill the mob without stressing the healer who is keeping you (the melee) alive.
#3. See #1^

This is not like FFXI. It is not designed to "let the tank get threat first!" and ranged dps is not supposed to stand in one spot and get hit like fools.

SE needs to implement abilities from WoW's Hunter like Feign Death (play dead, monster runs back to tank) and Misdirection (think trick attack, but for Archer).

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 5:09am by Transmigration


Wint beat me to it while I was getting breakfast >:O lol

The underlined part concerns me. This IS a let the tank get threat first game. At least a Flash/Overpower, or a Shield Lob/Tomahawk. It may not be "wait for provoke, flash, and a few swings" or "wait for 3 sunder armors" but you still should wait for at least that initial tank aggro. If you are NOT kiting adds and you pull aggro you should do your best to bind/slow the mob to allow the tank to get aggro/hate/threat back while not putting extra strain on the healer. You have to be careful how you say things or you'll have people thinking that its ok to drag a mob halfway across the map, possibly running into more mobs while the tank is chasing them TRYING to get threat back.

I agree on hate manipulation though. Archer is tactical class in general so a low level hate management tool would definitely be welcome.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 7:53am by Seraphknight777


That's sort of implied. I'm not saying we should run ahead and attack before the tank does, but we shouldn't have to stand there for 5 seconds waiting for him to build up threat either. The problem is in the game design, not the players.

Is there no taunt in this game?
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#25 Jul 12 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Seraphknight777 wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


#1. Archers don't do very much DPS, so it's either people suck at tanking or SE still hasn't gotten threat down
#2. Archers kite adds. When you kite, you slow/bind the mob and run/sprint while dumping arrows in to them to kill the mob without stressing the healer who is keeping you (the melee) alive.
#3. See #1^

This is not like FFXI. It is not designed to "let the tank get threat first!" and ranged dps is not supposed to stand in one spot and get hit like fools.

SE needs to implement abilities from WoW's Hunter like Feign Death (play dead, monster runs back to tank) and Misdirection (think trick attack, but for Archer).

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 5:09am by Transmigration


Wint beat me to it while I was getting breakfast >:O lol

The underlined part concerns me. This IS a let the tank get threat first game. At least a Flash/Overpower, or a Shield Lob/Tomahawk. It may not be "wait for provoke, flash, and a few swings" or "wait for 3 sunder armors" but you still should wait for at least that initial tank aggro. If you are NOT kiting adds and you pull aggro you should do your best to bind/slow the mob to allow the tank to get aggro/hate/threat back while not putting extra strain on the healer. You have to be careful how you say things or you'll have people thinking that its ok to drag a mob halfway across the map, possibly running into more mobs while the tank is chasing them TRYING to get threat back.

I agree on hate manipulation though. Archer is tactical class in general so a low level hate management tool would definitely be welcome.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 7:53am by Seraphknight777



That's sort of implied. I'm not saying we should run ahead and attack before the tank does, but we shouldn't have to stand there for 5 seconds waiting for him to build up threat either. The problem is in the game design, not the players.

Is there no taunt in this game?


It shouldn't take a tank 5 seconds to build threat. A Flash at the start of the battle should be enough to get things going. After that, MRDs can spam Overpower a couple times to ensure attention stays on them, and GLA has an enmity generating combo. MRDs should pretty much never lose hate. GLA has it rougher with Flash as their only decent AoE hate grab.
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#26 Jul 12 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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Good point for GLA, maybe savage blade or something should add a little more "threat".
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#27 Jul 12 2013 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you keep flashing every so often you won't lose hate, but once you do it's a pain to get it back because Flash seems to be more effective if the mobs are looking at you. In my limited experience this phase, MRD seem to hold hate better than GLA so hopefully something is done about that before launch.
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#28 Jul 12 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
If you keep flashing every so often you won't lose hate, but once you do it's a pain to get it back because Flash seems to be more effective if the mobs are looking at you. In my limited experience this phase, MRD seem to hold hate better than GLA so hopefully something is done about that before launch.


Overpower seems a bit overpowered. That's the main difference between MRD and GLA right now.

Edit: If they removed Flash from cross class abilities, it would probably be a bit fairer.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 3:25pm by FrozenSherbet
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#29 Jul 12 2013 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


I agree with you but,I LOVE ARCHER!!! Not when archer pulls hate of course. Archer was the last of 11 classes that I learned and for me, its by far the best. However, you need to learn how to balance damage with hate. If I were a healer, I wouldn't heal the archer, that would teach that class.

As an archer I use a Pug trait, Featherfoot for dodge, and cure from Conj . I'm bleary eyed from playing. I made it to level 13. no more time to spend on the game, but 11 classes later, and heck, Archer doesn't run out of ammo! In ffxi I had to make my own arrows.

Targeting is still an issue even after workng 11 classes. I hope to work with the filters some more to resolve this.

Oh, p.s. the first archer I saw was jumping up and down to avoid getting hit. It was very funny.






Edited, Jul 12th 2013 7:06pm by Grandmomma
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#30 Jul 12 2013 at 11:32 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Seraphknight777 wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


#1. Archers don't do very much DPS, so it's either people suck at tanking or SE still hasn't gotten threat down
#2. Archers kite adds. When you kite, you slow/bind the mob and run/sprint while dumping arrows in to them to kill the mob without stressing the healer who is keeping you (the melee) alive.
#3. See #1^

This is not like FFXI. It is not designed to "let the tank get threat first!" and ranged dps is not supposed to stand in one spot and get hit like fools.

SE needs to implement abilities from WoW's Hunter like Feign Death (play dead, monster runs back to tank) and Misdirection (think trick attack, but for Archer).

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 5:09am by Transmigration


Wint beat me to it while I was getting breakfast >:O lol

The underlined part concerns me. This IS a let the tank get threat first game. At least a Flash/Overpower, or a Shield Lob/Tomahawk. It may not be "wait for provoke, flash, and a few swings" or "wait for 3 sunder armors" but you still should wait for at least that initial tank aggro. If you are NOT kiting adds and you pull aggro you should do your best to bind/slow the mob to allow the tank to get aggro/hate/threat back while not putting extra strain on the healer. You have to be careful how you say things or you'll have people thinking that its ok to drag a mob halfway across the map, possibly running into more mobs while the tank is chasing them TRYING to get threat back.

I agree on hate manipulation though. Archer is tactical class in general so a low level hate management tool would definitely be welcome.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 7:53am by Seraphknight777



That's sort of implied. I'm not saying we should run ahead and attack before the tank does, but we shouldn't have to stand there for 5 seconds waiting for him to build up threat either. The problem is in the game design, not the players.

Is there no taunt in this game?


It shouldn't take a tank 5 seconds to build threat. A Flash at the start of the battle should be enough to get things going. After that, MRDs can spam Overpower a couple times to ensure attention stays on them, and GLA has an enmity generating combo. MRDs should pretty much never lose hate. GLA has it rougher with Flash as their only decent AoE hate grab.


And yet they do.. I've pulled threat on dungeon bosses even after waiting for the MRD to generate some threat. I've used multishot/quick knock 20 seconds in to a fight and still pulled the other 2 mobs off of the tank. Archer is a really weak DD . Some thing is wrong with the system.
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#31 Jul 12 2013 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
If you keep flashing every so often you won't lose hate, but once you do it's a pain to get it back because Flash seems to be more effective if the mobs are looking at you. In my limited experience this phase, MRD seem to hold hate better than GLA so hopefully something is done about that before launch.


Flash is somewhat weak at generating enmity, but fortunately it's also spammable. Most of the time I only need to use it twice. After that, I only need to switch targets and do a Fast Blade > Savage Blade combo, which is what I usually do if the enmity levels are far in my favor.

MRD is better at AoE tanking thanks to Overpower, but honestly as a 32 GLA thus far, I've barely had tanking issues. If I happen to lose an add, I just Shield Lob or Flash to get it back.

May be my previous MMO experience but Tanking in this game is pretty easy. The Manor has been the most difficult so far, but that's purely because of the Maiden patrols.
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#32 Jul 13 2013 at 6:24 AM Rating: Good
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Once Paladin Gets Shield Oath, their hate woes are completely gone, to be brutally honest.

Until then, they're still pretty good at keeping hate, they just have to concentrate on it a bit more than Maurader.

And this is coming from someone who aims to be a Warrior Tank.
#33 Jul 13 2013 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Seraphknight777 wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
After getting to devote real time to the beta this week, I have made a solid decision on how I feel about one thing. Archers are annoying as ****. Especially the ones who don't wait for the tank to grab hate, then just run in spamming abilities and running in circles. As a Lancer, it gets very tiresome chasing the dumb ARC all around Copperbell Mines trying to complete combos.

I would really like SE to change this mechanic before launch. Whether by making moving interrupt your attack, or imposing a significant accuracy penalty. I should not miss vorpal thrust so many times in a row that my combo effect disappears when fighting a giant gigas.

And Archers, it's almost the same principle as FFXI, for those of you who played. Don't run away when you're in a sealed, instanced zone. You will ultimately take more hits from ppl not gaining hate than you can dodge by running around like a fool.


#1. Archers don't do very much DPS, so it's either people suck at tanking or SE still hasn't gotten threat down
#2. Archers kite adds. When you kite, you slow/bind the mob and run/sprint while dumping arrows in to them to kill the mob without stressing the healer who is keeping you (the melee) alive.
#3. See #1^

This is not like FFXI. It is not designed to "let the tank get threat first!" and ranged dps is not supposed to stand in one spot and get hit like fools.

SE needs to implement abilities from WoW's Hunter like Feign Death (play dead, monster runs back to tank) and Misdirection (think trick attack, but for Archer).

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 5:09am by Transmigration


Wint beat me to it while I was getting breakfast >:O lol

The underlined part concerns me. This IS a let the tank get threat first game. At least a Flash/Overpower, or a Shield Lob/Tomahawk. It may not be "wait for provoke, flash, and a few swings" or "wait for 3 sunder armors" but you still should wait for at least that initial tank aggro. If you are NOT kiting adds and you pull aggro you should do your best to bind/slow the mob to allow the tank to get aggro/hate/threat back while not putting extra strain on the healer. You have to be careful how you say things or you'll have people thinking that its ok to drag a mob halfway across the map, possibly running into more mobs while the tank is chasing them TRYING to get threat back.

I agree on hate manipulation though. Archer is tactical class in general so a low level hate management tool would definitely be welcome.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 7:53am by Seraphknight777



That's sort of implied. I'm not saying we should run ahead and attack before the tank does, but we shouldn't have to stand there for 5 seconds waiting for him to build up threat either. The problem is in the game design, not the players.

Is there no taunt in this game?


It shouldn't take a tank 5 seconds to build threat. A Flash at the start of the battle should be enough to get things going. After that, MRDs can spam Overpower a couple times to ensure attention stays on them, and GLA has an enmity generating combo. MRDs should pretty much never lose hate. GLA has it rougher with Flash as their only decent AoE hate grab.


And yet they do.. I've pulled threat on dungeon bosses even after waiting for the MRD to generate some threat. I've used multishot/quick knock 20 seconds in to a fight and still pulled the other 2 mobs off of the tank. Archer is a really weak DD . Some thing is wrong with the system.


That really isn't a problem with system so much as it is a problem with the MRD you have tanking. Either they are wearing severely suboptimal gear, or they just aren't taking advantage of how much hate Overpower and Skull Sunder can generate. I never lost hate on MRD regardless of whether or not the party focused on the same mob.

As of right now, the only MRDs I've seen struggle are the ones that don't know they should carry Flash yet. The only thing you can do is politely tell them how to perform their role better. I haven't personally met one that has been unreceptive to advice, but I'm sure there's plenty of those out there.

ARC really isn't as weak as you're making it out to be, though. Especially in the beginner dungeons, critical hits can do some pretty decent damage. Combine that with DoT skills like Venomous Shot and Fracture, and ARC can generate quite a bit of threat.
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