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Thoughts on Summoner Egi SizeFollow

#1 Jul 12 2013 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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The much-debated topic of Summoner Egi Size is being rationally discussed (gasp!) on the beta forums.

Screenshot

So they are requesting Egis to be more like this:

Screenshot


Thoughts?

There was also a poll on the subject:

Screenshot


This thread was also posted in the Japanese forums and it seems (from the rough Google Translate) that they disagree. It seems that it's a very American ideal that only Large things can be powerful, and that Japanese players don't equate size to power.

Unofficial Zam Poll (ninja Wint edit)

Question text
Egis are all right by me.:26 (63.4%)
I can't see the Egis they're so small.:12 (29.3%)
Redesign them from the ground up!:3 (7.3%)
Total:41


Edited, Jul 12th 2013 10:47am by Wint
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#2 Jul 12 2013 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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#3 Jul 12 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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I might be in the minority here but I'm more concerned with function over form when it comes to Summoner. Maybe I'm just jaded from the total lack of attention the job received for the better part of a decade from FFXI, but I don't really care what they look like as long as they're useful in some way.

I also want to add that I'm glad to see the player wont have to look at Titan's thong or have to endure his "brick ************** action animation in HD this time around.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 11:56am by reptiletim
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#4 Jul 12 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Ha! Thanks for adding the poll. I forget I can do that now!
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#5 Jul 12 2013 at 9:55 AM Rating: Default
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You know how I feel. As a Summoner fan (all Final Fantasy games), I'm disappointed with the summons both design and size-wise.

Ifrit looks okay design-wise, but he's too small. Titan? Needs a total redo - just awful.
#6 Jul 12 2013 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
You know how I feel. As a Summoner fan (all Final Fantasy games), I'm disappointed with the summons both design and size-wise.

Ifrit looks okay design-wise, but he's too small. Titan? Needs a total redo - just awful.


Yeah, I know how you feel (and it's ok that we disagree).

Personally, I like them as they are, but I wouldn't mind them being a bit larger either. As far as Titan, I would have to see him from the front to make a decision, or even some animations.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 1:13pm by Louiscool
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#7 Jul 12 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
I don't really like, or dislike, them. I'd rather get my hands on the arcanist and play with them to see animations and stuff before making judgement.
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#8 Jul 12 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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At the end of the day, a big part of this needs to come down to screen size. I intend to main Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar. As much as I would love to be able to summon Leviathan into existence and completely cover the screens of all melee players, I recognize that it would be a massive pain in their ***.

In FFXI, the size was already an issue. And FFXI had minimal positional requirements. FFXIV is a far more position-specific game; larger summons would be a much bigger issue. Sure, mini Ifrit is slightly hilarious. But it also ultimately makes Ifrit more effective and will keep me from becoming unpopular with every single Monk in the game.

At the end of the day, that's what I'll choose.

I understand the reasons why some people want bigger summons. That said, I don't think it's a serious issue. The smaller Ifrit definitely looks like it could rip some beasts apart.
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#9 Jul 12 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
The much-debated topic of Summoner Egi Size is being rationally discussed (gasp!) on the beta forums.

[img=239886]

So they are requesting Egis to be more like this:

[img=239887]

Thoughts?

There was also a poll on the subject:

[img=239888]

This thread was also posted in the Japanese forums and it seems (from the rough Google Translate) that they disagree. It seems that it's a very American ideal that only Large things can be powerful, and that Japanese players don't equate size to power.

Unofficial Zam Poll (ninja Wint edit)

Poll Removed: No more than one per thread, please!

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 10:47am by Wint


First I'd like to say (without getting into statistical snobbery) that a sample of 318 is probably not large enough to make a conclusion as to the "true" thoughts of the population.

Second, they do not disagree... 50% of them have an issue with the summons as they are.

50% of Japanese players, and a larger majority of American players having an issue with the Egi as it is currently designed means that some number >50% of your gaming community disagrees with a design element which could easily be fixed. It's not like we are asking SE to reassess some critical structural element of the game (unless of course they don't want to change the Egi size because they already have invested a ton into cinematic cutscenes.)

It's also fairly universal that "larger" is associated with more power, perhaps this doesn't apply to everything, however it's a simple rule of physics... objects which contain more mass have more power. The Japanese also tend to favor a more "cutesy" appearance in their gaming than is commonly accepted in American culture. One isn't necessarily better than the other, they are simple cultural differences...

In the end I suppose it doesn't matter what they decide to do, although I will say at least some part of my decision to play a class is based on how interesting the job looks... and currently you have 50%+ of your community saying the class doesn't really look as "awesome" as it could.




Edited, Jul 12th 2013 12:23pm by ClydesShadow
#10 Jul 12 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hey at least SE has proven they can scale the size of mobs up rather easily. Who remembers fighting tiny rats and bugs for the first 10 levels in 1.0?
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#11 Jul 12 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Egis shouod be fun to have. How much fun is having a spherical blob of color floating next to you? And while on the topic of pets, please give us wyverns back for our dragons!
#12 Jul 12 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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je355804 wrote:
How much fun is having a spherical blob of color floating next to you?
Depends which jelly bean you give it.
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#13 Jul 12 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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je355804 wrote:
How much fun is having a spherical blob of color floating next to you?


Hey, there's nothing wrong with Lalafells! They're a lot of fun, especially when they panic dance--

Uh.

Oh.

You meant Egis.

Well, you could understand the confusion. After all, how could you think small creatures aren't powerful when you can watch a team of Lalafells take down the most powerful bosses in the game? Smiley: nod
#14 Jul 12 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
First I'd like to say (without getting into statistical snobbery) that a sample of 318 is probably not large enough to make a conclusion as to the "true" thoughts of the population.

Second, they do not disagree... 50% of them have an issue with the summons as they are.

50% of Japanese players, and a larger majority of American players having an issue with the Egi as it is currently designed means that some number >50% of your gaming community disagrees with a design element which could easily be fixed. It's not like we are asking SE to reassess some critical structural element of the game (unless of course they don't want to change the Egi size because they already have invested a ton into cinematic cutscenes.)


I should have mentioned that the poll was purely for English-speaking forum users (taken from the beta forum). If you look at the Japanese version of this forum post (and can read Japanese) I would be interested to see a real translation, but the babble from Google looks like they disagree.

I also attribute the "larger is better" to the American Machismo and not to our elaborate physics knowledge.. (since these are all magical floating beings that control elements of earth, fire, and wind, not a pivot and a fulcrum.)
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#15 Jul 12 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
I also attribute the "larger is better" to the American Machismo and not to our elaborate physics knowledge.. (since these are all magical floating beings that control elements of earth, fire, and wind, not a pivot and a fulcrum.)


Seriously?

Maybe people would want them larger because Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan are always big, at at least as big as the player character, in the Final Fantasy series. Not runts.

Has more to do with Final Fantasy than anything.


Edited, Jul 12th 2013 1:26pm by Killua125
#16 Jul 12 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I also attribute the "larger is better" to the American Machismo and not to our elaborate physics knowledge.. (since these are all magical floating beings that control elements of earth, fire, and wind, not a pivot and a fulcrum.)


Seriously?

Maybe people would want them larger because Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan are always big, at at least as big as the player character, in the Final Fantasy series. Not runts.

Has more to do with Final Fantasy than anything.


Edited, Jul 12th 2013 1:26pm by Killua125



The real ones are big, and when you do the World Summon you'll summon the large version.
#17 Jul 12 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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"Large Majority of American players."

... Zam polling says otherwise. When will people learn to just speak for themselves?
#18 Jul 12 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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I'm sorry but the current size we saw in the video is just puny and pathetic >_> especially the Titan one, looks like a floating pile of shiny rubbles. I would be ok if they increased the size to the pictures above. You would think from the concept art and current picture of the SMN on the official website (http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/game/jobs/summoner) that they would be bigger, but nope :P the Titan egi is supposed to be the tank.. but that thing will probably be trampled by a wild chocobo XD

Even if they increased the size to the size of a male Roe, it would still be a fraction of the size of the real thing :P Going to be interesting to see how the GC summoning is going to work, I would imagine that only the 5% of the hardcore playerbase would ever be able to use it in a fight :P

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 1:39pm by abesut

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 1:42pm by abesut
#19 Jul 12 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
"Large Majority of American players."

... Zam polling says otherwise. When will people learn to just speak for themselves?


Hyrist you are very intelligent I can assess that by logical, thought provoking comments you generally make.... I made the comment based on the common sentiment I've seen on the forums I frequent, true... it's not scientific, but do you honestly believe the "Zam" poll above proves anything, beyond how to make a crappy poll?

First, the description leads you into picking a certain answer, by suggesting that the Japanese feel a particular way (which they don't... it's classic misinterpretation of another horribly made poll.) Two of the options describe descent against the Egi in it's current form and one of them favors it. No matter what happens in the results it will look like more people are for the Egi because the other options which think there needs to be some reworking are being deluded...

Anyways, you're right my comment was as presumptuous as the poll.
#20 Jul 12 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:


I also attribute the "larger is better" to the American Machismo and not to our elaborate physics knowledge.. (since these are all magical floating beings that control elements of earth, fire, and wind, not a pivot and a fulcrum.)


You can see "larger is better" throughout every culture in history... perhaps not in terms of material possession, but certainly in terms of physical strength... Albeit you're right, we're debating the strength of magical beings, so the argument is slightly less relevant.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 4:40pm by ClydesShadow
#21 Jul 12 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
"Large Majority of American players."

... Zam polling says otherwise. When will people learn to just speak for themselves?


Hyrist you are very intelligent I can assess that by logical, thought provoking comments you generally make.... I made the comment based on the common sentiment I've seen on the forums I frequent, true... it's not scientific, but do you honestly believe the "Zam" poll above proves anything, beyond how to make a crappy poll?

First, the description leads you into picking a certain answer, by suggesting that the Japanese feel a particular way (which they don't... it's classic misinterpretation of another horribly made poll.) Two of the options describe descent against the Egi in it's current form and one of them favors it. No matter what happens in the results it will look like more people are for the Egi because the other options which think there needs to be some reworking are being deluded...

Anyways, you're right my comment was as presumptuous as the poll.



I take protest to the idea of 'common sentiment' the problem with this, as is with any forum, is that it can only represent the most vocal minority. Polling, however, is more anonymous and often can be done without coming under persecution, which, from my perspective, eases the availability to state opinion or share one's thoughts on the matter.

So while we can have what seems to be a large number of people decrying something, the larger number of people who are ok with it usually don't speak up.

This fails to be acknowledged when we seek confirmation bias - because we want to be 'right' as much as possible. This is where I get annoyed. We're too afraid as individuals to simply be wrong, or to simply stand on our own two feet in an argument these days, that we have to find some outside form of validation.

As far as the matter of whether or not the summoner's Egi's needs an adjustment? I feel apathetic on the issue. I am fine as they are, and my interest in Arcanist/Summoner has not changed. There should be no need for insulting or trying to assemble an intimidation crowd to bring what is effectively a personal aesthetic request.

I can understand the reasoning on SE's end for the down-scaling. I can understand the reasoning on the player's end for wanting them larger. My personal views on the matter is that I'm indifferent. I'm fine with the way they are, but I admonish the level of animosity and mob-forming being presented concerning them. This is not a matter to be outraged upon, in my opinion. The actual power of the class isn't being put into question, just the appearance of which. It does not feel like a consequential debate, but one of tastes.

It's like asking them to redesign Ifrit's spear because it's ugly.
#22 Jul 12 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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ClydesShadow wrote:


Hyrist you are very intelligent I can assess that by logical, thought provoking comments you generally make.... I made the comment based on the common sentiment I've seen on the forums I frequent, true... it's not scientific, but do you honestly believe the "Zam" poll above proves anything, beyond how to make a crappy poll?


I went to the Japanese forums and read their comments, and from that I made a statement. You looked at the wording of the poll answers and decided the poll was worthless and so were the results.

Some excerpts from the responses:

-Was not disappointed
-I thought this production is good personally.
-Manifestation of power that are causative is 'size', which do no contradiction that way then yearn! (size =! power)
-When it comes to Summoner of high-level, to be able to use "fire of **** ○" is Ifrit-Egi. They consume a large amount of MP, using Ifrit-Egi is to Ifrit only for a moment to add summoned along with the magic square. And after activation powerful technique, back to Ifrit-Egi. I saw such a dream (It would be nice if they became the large version just to cast Hellfire, etc)


This said, there are not many responses to this thread, because its probably poorly auto-translated and not prime-Japanese-forum-time yet.
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#23 Jul 12 2013 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Sidenote - grats on green Shadow.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 2:22pm by Hyrist
#24 Jul 12 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:


Seriously?

Maybe people would want them larger because Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan are always big, at at least as big as the player character, in the Final Fantasy series. Not runts.

Has more to do with Final Fantasy than anything.



Seriously.

The eggis are small essences of the bigger primals. You do have your real Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan that are huge and summonable by free companies that can manage to tame it.
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#25 Jul 12 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Killua125 wrote:


Seriously?

Maybe people would want them larger because Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan are always big, at at least as big as the player character, in the Final Fantasy series. Not runts.

Has more to do with Final Fantasy than anything.



Seriously.

The eggis are small essences of the bigger primals. You do have your real Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan that are huge and summonable by free companies that can manage to tame it.


Maybe it would be better if they were just called fire spirit? I think people put too much focus on the past. I mean, how much crap do the devs get for using fan-service hooks, and th nthe secodn they try something different they get "why can't it be the same!?"

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 2:50pm by Louiscool
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#26 Jul 12 2013 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd like to see how they're used more before I pass judgement on size, but for now I'm Ok with it. If they're used similar to how they are in XI, then a little bigger would probably be a good thing since it would look a little funny seeing one of these tiny guys wailing on a giant toad or something. However, if they're just summoned to cast a spell then released (like VII's summons) then small is fine.
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#27 Jul 12 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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I thought the dev's reasoning for not making them big/the real thing was because they didn't want so many large summons running around.

I tend to agree, with respect to the lore, it kills immersion. (Sorry, Wint!)

I see the situation being a lot like Bahamut in FFXI. No one could summon him because he was the big boss celestial avatar. Having all SMNs just call him at any given point trivializes his existence.
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#28 Jul 12 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
I thought the dev's reasoning for not making them big/the real thing was because they didn't want so many large summons running around.

I tend to agree, with respect to the lore, it kills immersion. (Sorry, Wint!)

I see the situation being a lot like Bahamut in FFXI. No one could summon him because he was the big boss celestial avatar. Having all SMNs just call him at any given point trivializes his existence.


Smiley: laugh

I agree, I don't want them to be full sized, especially if they have the big versions that FC's can beat and summon.
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#29 Jul 12 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
"Large Majority of American players."

... Zam polling says otherwise. When will people learn to just speak for themselves?


Hyrist you are very intelligent I can assess that by logical, thought provoking comments you generally make.... I made the comment based on the common sentiment I've seen on the forums I frequent, true... it's not scientific, but do you honestly believe the "Zam" poll above proves anything, beyond how to make a crappy poll?

First, the description leads you into picking a certain answer, by suggesting that the Japanese feel a particular way (which they don't... it's classic misinterpretation of another horribly made poll.) Two of the options describe descent against the Egi in it's current form and one of them favors it. No matter what happens in the results it will look like more people are for the Egi because the other options which think there needs to be some reworking are being deluded...

Anyways, you're right my comment was as presumptuous as the poll.



I take protest to the idea of 'common sentiment' the problem with this, as is with any forum, is that it can only represent the most vocal minority. Polling, however, is more anonymous and often can be done without coming under persecution, which, from my perspective, eases the availability to state opinion or share one's thoughts on the matter.

So while we can have what seems to be a large number of people decrying something, the larger number of people who are ok with it usually don't speak up.

This fails to be acknowledged when we seek confirmation bias - because we want to be 'right' as much as possible. This is where I get annoyed. We're too afraid as individuals to simply be wrong, or to simply stand on our own two feet in an argument these days, that we have to find some outside form of validation.

As far as the matter of whether or not the summoner's Egi's needs an adjustment? I feel apathetic on the issue. I am fine as they are, and my interest in Arcanist/Summoner has not changed. There should be no need for insulting or trying to assemble an intimidation crowd to bring what is effectively a personal aesthetic request.

I can understand the reasoning on SE's end for the down-scaling. I can understand the reasoning on the player's end for wanting them larger. My personal views on the matter is that I'm indifferent. I'm fine with the way they are, but I admonish the level of animosity and mob-forming being presented concerning them. This is not a matter to be outraged upon, in my opinion. The actual power of the class isn't being put into question, just the appearance of which. It does not feel like a consequential debate, but one of tastes.

It's like asking them to redesign Ifrit's spear because it's ugly.


I completely agree with your points, I even conceded that my original comments were presumptuous and not valid based on my claims of "common sentiment."

I mostly meant to point out the fact that there are several major leading errors in the polls listed above.
#30 Jul 12 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I mostly meant to point out the fact that there are several major leading errors in the polls listed above.


Instead of every thread devolving into a discussion on minutia revolving around some minor tedious detail (for example, how fair and balanced a random poll is which leads into a lesson on Communication and Statistical Theory), maybe.. just maybe... you could express an opinion related to the original post? And this isn't necessarily directed at you, it just seems that MOST threads derail this way lately...
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#31 Jul 12 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
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It's not like I want them to be as big as the primals. Maybe the same size as an Elezen or so? I don't know. They're roughly the size of the baby vanity pets (ROUGHLY).

It's just not cool. And again, Titan has more issues than just size - haven't seen Garuda yet.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
I thought the dev's reasoning for not making them big/the real thing was because they didn't want so many large summons running around.

I tend to agree, with respect to the lore, it kills immersion. (Sorry, Wint!)


Is there anything in the lore that says the Egi needs to be puny...? Why can't they be a fraction of the primals' power but still be reasonably sized compared to the player character?

You could step on the current summons and squash them like a bug.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 3:44pm by Killua125
#32 Jul 12 2013 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
It's not like I want them to be as big as the primals. Maybe the same size as an Elezen or so? I don't know. They're roughly the size of the baby vanity pets (ROUGHLY).

It's just not cool. And again, Titan has more issues than just size - haven't seen Garuda yet.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
I thought the dev's reasoning for not making them big/the real thing was because they didn't want so many large summons running around.

I tend to agree, with respect to the lore, it kills immersion. (Sorry, Wint!)


Is there anything in the lore that says the Egi needs to be puny...? Why can't they be a fraction of the primals' power but still be reasonably sized compared to the player character?

You could step on the current summons and squash them like a bug.

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 3:44pm by Killua125


Well, that's exactly the thing being proposed. My question to you, would this help? I actually like this change, they are beefier and cooler looking.

Original

Screenshot


BEEFCAKE

Screenshot


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#33 Jul 12 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:


Hyrist you are very intelligent I can assess that by logical, thought provoking comments you generally make.... I made the comment based on the common sentiment I've seen on the forums I frequent, true... it's not scientific, but do you honestly believe the "Zam" poll above proves anything, beyond how to make a crappy poll?


I went to the Japanese forums and read their comments, and from that I made a statement. You looked at the wording of the poll answers and decided the poll was worthless and so were the results.

Some excerpts from the responses:

-Was not disappointed
-I thought this production is good personally.
-Manifestation of power that are causative is 'size', which do no contradiction that way then yearn! (size =! power)
-When it comes to Summoner of high-level, to be able to use "fire of **** ○" is Ifrit-Egi. They consume a large amount of MP, using Ifrit-Egi is to Ifrit only for a moment to add summoned along with the magic square. And after activation powerful technique, back to Ifrit-Egi. I saw such a dream (It would be nice if they became the large version just to cast Hellfire, etc)


This said, there are not many responses to this thread, because its probably poorly auto-translated and not prime-Japanese-forum-time yet.


Louis, the reason I said the poll is worthless is because in my profession I in part have to be able to read academic research articles and understand when there may be bias/ collection error confounding the studies results. The poll listed above is guilty of more than one type of investigational bias... mostly based on how the questions are constructed.

Granted, I really don't want to get into an argument over something so trivial as the validity of a poll on a video game forum!

Egi big or small, the game is fricking awesome... so I'm happy!

Hyrist wrote:
Sidenote - grats on green Shadow.


Thank you!

Edited, Jul 12th 2013 4:44pm by ClydesShadow
#34 Jul 12 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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i agree with the japanese that size doesn't equal power, but i also agree that the current size is a tad too small.

In those pictures above i believe the bigger model is, and should be, the perfect size for them. The origional just seems overly small, but maybe thats just me being used to summoner from XI. But even then the the bigger version is still smaller than XI's version.

Also, summons are not only about power but being real flashy and awe inspiring. The origional ifrit looks like if i blow on him, i'll put him out.
#35 Jul 12 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I did, my original post stated that I thought they could be bigger... and you're original post made the comment "Japanese don't think large = strong" etc.

I was making a point of response to each element of your OP.


My bad, my bad Smiley: smile

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#36 Jul 12 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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"larger" is associated with more power, perhaps this doesn't apply to everything


I applaud everyone for staying on track after that very early comment.

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#37 Jul 12 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
I'm down with them being a little bigger. Bigger is cooler IMO.
#38 Jul 12 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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I think somewhere in-between beefcake and original would be my favorite size adjustment. I don't mind them being smalll. But I do mind the beefcake size, both from a controller, and a player perspective. If that things going to be in melee range, I don't want it to be imposing in my vision of positioning. And on the same vein, I want to be able to see what's happening to the monster.

But I don't mind an upsize from the origonal. I'm just thinking gameplay issues in the long haul. Remember, it's quite possible to have multiple of these things in on a raid.
#39 Jul 12 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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153 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
I did, my original post stated that I thought they could be bigger... and you're original post made the comment "Japanese don't think large = strong" etc.

I was making a point of response to each element of your OP.


My bad, my bad Smiley: smile

Quote:
academic research articles


We have more in common than you know..


You work for an underground organization secretly working to bring twinkies back too? Small world!

Edit: I just googled it, apparently Twinkies are back as of March! Mission accomplished, good work Louis!

Thayos wrote:
Quote:
"larger" is associated with more power, perhaps this doesn't apply to everything


I applaud everyone for staying on track after that very early comment.



Smiley: lol


Edited, Jul 12th 2013 6:17pm by ClydesShadow
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