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#1 Jul 12 2013 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
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Soooo. I just did Halatali for the first time. The makeup was 2 THM a MRD and me as CNJ. Guess who tanked the whole dungeon? That's right....one of the THMs. I'm not even kidding. Zero wipes. And I got a really neat staff off the last boss. The THM didn't even give the MRD a chance and the MRD never did anything but a few skills and auto attacks.

I really think they need to look at dungeon difficulty/challenge or whatever.
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#2 Jul 12 2013 at 8:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
Soooo. I just did Halatali for the first time. The makeup was 2 THM a MRD and me as CNJ. Guess who tanked the whole dungeon? That's right....one of the THMs. I'm not even kidding. Zero wipes. And I got a really neat staff off the last boss. The THM didn't even give the MRD a chance and the MRD never did anything but a few skills and auto attacks.

I really think they need to look at dungeon difficulty/challenge or whatever.


It doesn't surprise me, considering that I had to tank the electric Peiste twice on THM. THM could solo the dungeon if there wasn't a time limit, just spamming Blizzard II and Cure. It's probably one of the primary visible reasons why people whine that Umbral Ice is overpowered.
#3 Jul 12 2013 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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In one of his more recent interviews. Yoshi may have said that is working as intended. That's a level 15 raid right? At that level, there shouldn't be too much need for a GLA tank. Now, if you can complete it without a healer... then... lol...
#4 Jul 12 2013 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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Halatali is like the 4th or 5th dungeon... not the first.
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#5 Jul 12 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah it's the 4th.

Level 20-23
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#6 Jul 12 2013 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
In one of his more recent interviews. Yoshi may have said that is working as intended. That's a level 15 raid right? At that level, there shouldn't be too much need for a GLA tank. Now, if you can complete it without a healer... then... lol...


While I love this game, and can't say enough about what they've done to listen to fans... the "the difficulty is working as intended" broken record is getting me a little nervous. The game is VERY easy... and the part which gives me even more pause is that the dungeons are currently set to be "a little bit harder than they will be on release day" according to Yoshi.

I think adding in a little extra challenge keeps you on your toes and makes you feel like what you are doing matters... If the difficulty stays at a low level throughout you never feel the reward of victory.

As per usual, I refrain from making any serious judgements considering it's still in beta... I do hope to see some tangible changes come release though.
#7 Jul 12 2013 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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While I love this game, and can't say enough about what they've done to listen to fans... the "the difficulty is working as intended" broken record is getting me a little nervous. The game is VERY easy... and the part which gives me even more pause is that the dungeons are currently set to be "a little bit harder than they will be on release day" according to Yoshi.


While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.

The difficult stuff happens at endgame in raids.

Now, that being said, if the endgame raids are as easy as the leveling dungeon, complaint totally valid.
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#8 Jul 12 2013 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Oops, I forget which is which. Prior to Ifrit I just remember having to do 3 back to back ones. They were easy enough, that I'm not surprised you don't really "need" a tank. I'm not too certain you need one for Ifrit either lol...
#9 Jul 13 2013 at 3:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll just put this here because I don't want to create a new thread:

I joined a Copperbell party as a lancer. It was me, an archer and a conjurer.

We had 20 mins left and needed to beat the slime and the last gigas.

We went for it. No tank, just us three.

Since I've ran Copperbell as a GLD I knew what to do. I told them and the archer kited the slimes, and I took care of the bomb and spriggans.

We passed that pretty easily.

We died on some trash mobs, but made it to the gigas.

I told them I'd tank the gigas and for the archer to take care of the adds. Everything was going great when I saw there were too many adds and they were going after the CON. The gigas was down to litterally a sliver of health, the archer was barely alive...

I died! Then saw the screen go black...to a cutscene of the boss dying!

It was pretty epic. More importantly it was fun.

----

I think the level of difficulty is fine up to 20. Considering you have to pass these to progress, they can't be overly difficult. The game is teaching you things in order to prepare for endgame; things like communication, hate management, etc. I'd think the endgame, which none of us have seen, will be the (not surprisingly) hardest content.

Should there be a heroic mode for some of these dungeons....yeah I think so. But really I think the early dungeons are fine.
#10 Jul 13 2013 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I just hope they have a lot prepared for endgame if that's set to be the main focus. I haven't experienced any of the dungeons so I can't really speak on their difficulty, but from all the feedback I have seen it looks as though people are going to eat through levels way too quickly. Unless there are some higher hurdles a little further down the track, I get the feeling that people will finish the race without breaking a sweat.

It's going to be interesting to see what Yoshi has planned for the later stages of the game. I wonder if it's going to be bigger blocks of content that come a few times a year, a big block that they plan to unlock over smaller increments of time or just smaller blocks every other month...

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#11 Jul 13 2013 at 5:09 AM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.


Who says MMORPG leveling needs to be easy (monotonous)?
#12 Jul 13 2013 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
While I love this game, and can't say enough about what they've done to listen to fans... the "the difficulty is working as intended" broken record is getting me a little nervous. The game is VERY easy... and the part which gives me even more pause is that the dungeons are currently set to be "a little bit harder than they will be on release day" according to Yoshi.


While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.

The difficult stuff happens at endgame in raids.

Now, that being said, if the endgame raids are as easy as the leveling dungeon, complaint totally valid.


I agree with this completely. The game is trying to accomodate both casuals and hardcores. If the leveling dungeons, which are part of the storyline to actually advance your character, are too difficult, it's going to sour the game on a lot of players. Personally I think the difficulty is fine as is. The very first time you run a dungeon, it still has a bit of challenge to it. Some of the bosses have unique mechanics that, if your group doesn't know them, will make the fights very tough. Once you learn the mechanics, it becomes very easy, as do most encounters in mmo's I've found. As Callinon said, as long as the endgame stuff holds a good challenge, I'm fine with the leveling parts being somewhat easier.
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#13 Jul 13 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
While I love this game, and can't say enough about what they've done to listen to fans... the "the difficulty is working as intended" broken record is getting me a little nervous. The game is VERY easy... and the part which gives me even more pause is that the dungeons are currently set to be "a little bit harder than they will be on release day" according to Yoshi.


While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.

The difficult stuff happens at endgame in raids.

Now, that being said, if the endgame raids are as easy as the leveling dungeon, complaint totally valid.


I agree with this completely. The game is trying to accomodate both casuals and hardcores. If the leveling dungeons, which are part of the storyline to actually advance your character, are too difficult, it's going to sour the game on a lot of players. Personally I think the difficulty is fine as is. The very first time you run a dungeon, it still has a bit of challenge to it. Some of the bosses have unique mechanics that, if your group doesn't know them, will make the fights very tough. Once you learn the mechanics, it becomes very easy, as do most encounters in mmo's I've found. As Callinon said, as long as the endgame stuff holds a good challenge, I'm fine with the leveling parts being somewhat easier.


Hey let's be reasonable here, no one from the "make-it-harder" camp is saying anything about making these dungeons so hard that it takes an above average player to beat them. What we are saying is that I wouldn't mind getting wiped against a boss every now and then because the fight required a little bit of planning and technique.
#14 Jul 13 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to have to agree with you a bit...

Last night for fun, we did Ifrit like this:

Screenshot


Brd was a random from Duty Finder, but we did fail 2 times prior to the win.

Healer (me) and Tank died at the end and the Drg was able to strafe-kite Ifrit down while the Brd healed. I was also very bad at dodging eruptions (JP server lag) but still, that should be a flat-out wipe every time.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 12:32pm by Louiscool
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#15 Jul 13 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
Honestly, these dungeons lock off content.

Like the Auction House.

And Mounts.

Why the **** should they not be easy for people who know how to play?

Edit:

Yes, the Auction House. You cannot sell anything on the Marketplace without a retainer, and the retainer is obtained via this string of missions. So explain to me why it would be smart to make it harder?

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 12:34pm by Pawkeshup
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#16 Jul 13 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hey let's be reasonable here, no one from the "make-it-harder" camp is saying anything about making these dungeons so hard that it takes an above average player to beat them

Smiley: dubious
You sure about that?

Quote:
What we are saying is that I wouldn't mind getting wiped against a boss every now and then because the fight required a little bit of planning and technique.


It's tricky, because we're talking about dungeons that people will run while still very new to the game. They're still learning how the game works, and possibly how MMOs work. They're learning how dungeons work and how bosses and parties work. At this stage of the game you MUST assume that the people running these dungeons are greener than Ireland. If they're hard to do, than you're frustrating brand new players. Keep in mind too that these took a couple of days tops to reach, not a couple of months. Frightening off new players before they've paid for a month of service isn't the best idea.

Content has to get harder on a curve. I would expect higher level dungeons to be more difficult than lower level ones. I expect endgame raids to be challenging (though still on a curve... don't brickwall people on the first boss, please).


Edited, Jul 13th 2013 11:34am by Callinon
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#17 Jul 13 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup, Averter of the Apocalypse wrote:
Honestly, these dungeons lock off content.

Like the Auction House.

And Mounts.

Why the **** should they not be easy for people who know how to play?

Edit:

Yes, the Auction House. You cannot sell anything on the Marketplace without a retainer, and the retainer is obtained via this string of missions. So explain to me why it would be smart to make it harder?

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 12:34pm by Pawkeshup


I agree with this too, though. It's REALLY hard to judge a game's difficulty by a level 25 instance. 1.0 was soloable all the way to Deus-Ex Machina, and then without warning you got your *** handed to you and realized you needed a party suddenly. I think they are tryign to avoid this sudden spike with a gradual one to ease you into it.

I would expect the difficulty to ramp up around 45-50, followed by much harder content that requires item levels beyond 50 to complete, followed by a level cap increase with even harder content.
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#18 Jul 13 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
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Doesn't level 50 hard hard mode dungeons? Yea so this thread is useless especially for a lvl 20 dungeon.
#19 Jul 13 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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Hey let's be reasonable here, no one from the "make-it-harder" camp is saying anything about making these dungeons so hard that it takes an above average player to beat them

Smiley: dubious
You sure about that?

Quote:
What we are saying is that I wouldn't mind getting wiped against a boss every now and then because the fight required a little bit of planning and technique.


It's tricky, because we're talking about dungeons that people will run while still very new to the game. They're still learning how the game works, and possibly how MMOs work. They're learning how dungeons work and how bosses and parties work. At this stage of the game you MUST assume that the people running these dungeons are greener than Ireland. If they're hard to do, than you're frustrating brand new players. Keep in mind too that these took a couple of days tops to reach, not a couple of months. Frightening off new players before they've paid for a month of service isn't the best idea.

Content has to get harder on a curve. I would expect higher level dungeons to be more difficult than lower level ones. I expect endgame raids to be challenging (though still on a curve... don't brickwall people on the first boss, please).


Edited, Jul 13th 2013 11:34am by Callinon


Well anyone who is a reasonable person isn't saying anything about making the beginning dungeons epic... In fact, personally I'm not even talking about the first 3 dungeons. Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23. You've done 3 dungeons multiple times each at that point. If someone gets scared away because they get wiped once in a while in the 4th dungeon, then maybe they just aren't good at dealing with defeat??? Seems more like a personality issue than a game design flaw.

Again, let me be clear here... I'm not suggesting making the opening dungeons more difficult, but once you're in your 20s there should be at least SOME threat of dying once in a while. Instead we literally waltz through the dungeons with our HP never falling below 75%.

There has to be some happy medium.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 5:03pm by ClydesShadow
#20 Jul 13 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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The easiest way to make it a bit hard: stop giving Con unlimited MP. I mean, the only limiter in every dungeon is cure speed, as mp management in non-existent early on. Sure anyone can tank it, because anyone can get propped up by constant cures.
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#21 Jul 13 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
The easiest way to make it a bit hard: stop giving Con unlimited MP. I mean, the only limiter in every dungeon is cure speed, as mp management in non-existent early on. Sure anyone can tank it, because anyone can get propped up by constant cures.


I agree with that for sure.
#22 Jul 13 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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Well anyone who is a reasonable person isn't saying anything about making the beginning dungeons epic... In fact, personally I'm not even talking about the first 3 dungeons. Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23. You've done 3 dungeons multiple times each at that point. If someone gets scared away because they get wiped once in a while in the 4th dungeon, then maybe they just aren't good at dealing with defeat??? Seems more like a personality issue than a game design flaw.

Again, let me be clear here... I'm not suggesting making the opening dungeons more difficult, but once you're in your 20s there should be at least SOME threat of dying once in a while. Instead we literally waltz through the dungeons with our XP never falling below 75%.

There has to be some happy medium.

I ran each of the three starter dungeons once.

Once.

And I am level 21. So unless you are saying to get three levels I have to go back, with no other way (hint, there is another way) to make those two levels, then your point is invalid. People are choosing to grind the dungeons for loot and levels. These dungeons are intended as an extended play tutorial, and even Y-P has confirmed this, literally.

Again, these dungeons block basic content like the airship pass, grand company access, retainers... Things you sort of need/want in the game as basic functions. So I once again ask, how is smart to ramp up the difficulty to, effectively, roadblock content from new players just to appease people who already know how to play, especially when even the devs are saying that these dungeons are not intended to present that form of obstacle?

And again, even later dungeons, unless they are absolutely optional, will likely grant access to other features that are supposed to be a part of the assumed skillset of the player once they approach endgame.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 1:30pm by Pawkeshup
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#23 Jul 13 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23.


Just curious, can you name me another game that has challenging dungeons by level 23? I was trying to think of one, and the only thing that really came to mind was lotro with the Great Barrows instance. And even that isn't so much difficult as it is long. Most games don't have challenging content at low levels. Heck, WoW dungeons are all pretty easy until you hit 60ish, and even after that most of the ones in the dungeon finder are still incredibly straightforward. They have other content that is very challenging for sure, and I think ARR will too, such as hardmode and extreme primal fights, AF quests, relics, etc. I really don't think a dungeon at level 23 needs to be all that difficult. Make it fun, make the bosses have some cool mechanics, and make the dungeon itself interesting and unique, and that's good enough for me.
#24 Jul 13 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
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Realistically though, you should absolutely have some challenge associated with dungeons by time you're level 23.


Just curious, can you name me another game that has challenging dungeons by level 23?


Depends what you mean by "challenging".

I can give you a huge list of games with harder instances than ARR by level 23 but I'm not sure if I'd consider them difficult necessarily. Just more difficult than ARR.

Edited, Jul 13th 2013 2:47pm by Killua125
#25 Jul 13 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
The easiest way to make it a bit hard: stop giving Con unlimited MP. I mean, the only limiter in every dungeon is cure speed, as mp management in non-existent early on. Sure anyone can tank it, because anyone can get propped up by constant cures.


I definitely agree with that.. I was watching my CNJ's mp while I was punching things and it never really went anywhere; except for those times when the tank got distracted by a butterfly and I ended up tanking two mobs at once as a pugilist.. and even then, the guy kept me up.

Quote:
Again, let me be clear here... I'm not suggesting making the opening dungeons more difficult, but once you're in your 20s there should be at least SOME threat of dying once in a while. Instead we literally waltz through the dungeons with our XP never falling below 75%.


Going to assume you meant HP there.. and yeah, if you're an experienced MMO player (which is what I expect beta players to be, by and large) you're going to sleep through the dungeons because they're nothing special. But do believe me when I say that a neophyte player is going to have a learning curve when it comes to working in a party and dealing with mechanics. Now imagine a party of those. 4 guys who are playing their first MMO. They'll be challenged by this level of content, without it feeling like punishment.

Where the starter dungeons are right now is about right for a person at that level of skill and experience.

Unfortunately I haven't done any of the other dungeons, so I can't speak to their difficulty, but I expect them to be more difficult as they go up in level, growing appropriately with the player's own power.
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#26 Jul 13 2013 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow you guys must be pro players or something.

Last three days: Me and a tank had to carry a fight with the healer and mage in Haitali, where they died to the lightning drake.

Our LS Went to help a player go do Ifirt, we wiped two times after killing the Fetters smoothly.

And I personally got my face melted having the Dragon boss from Longstop turning to Dragon Breath + Venom Breath singeing me out for attacks. Then, mid fight, got revived, the IMMEDIATELY Venom Spit again.

So the 'Too easy' complaint isn't resonating with me. IF you already know what you're doing with every fight, it can be very easy. If not, stuff can go very wrong very quickly.
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