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#52 Jul 14 2013 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights...... It was hard if you only played XI, and never touched another MMO

yep that's me. But I thought XI was pretty hard

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 9:43am by klooste8
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#53 Jul 14 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Default
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Ostia your awesome......
#54 Jul 14 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Wow you guys must be pro players or something.

Last three days: Me and a tank had to carry a fight with the healer and mage in Haitali, where they died to the lightning drake.

Our LS Went to help a player go do Ifirt, we wiped two times after killing the Fetters smoothly.

And I personally got my face melted having the Dragon boss from Longstop turning to Dragon Breath + Venom Breath singeing me out for attacks. Then, mid fight, got revived, the IMMEDIATELY Venom Spit again.

So the 'Too easy' complaint isn't resonating with me. IF you already know what you're doing with every fight, it can be very easy. If not, stuff can go very wrong very quickly.


I wouldn't call myself pro, we we did just kill Ifrit completely naked.... It did help knowing the mechanics, but the gear was basically meaningless and the only reason I died was because of the lag on eruption from my server being JP-based.

I'm not saying there's no challenge, but I can't tell if what we did was based on our skill, or the fight being too easy.

Quote:
Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights


Rivenroad Hard was... If that wasn't up there then I never want to see this level of difficulty you hope for Ostia...

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 1:16pm by Louiscool
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#55 Jul 14 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ahh the age of YouTube. Wonder how many times those pioneers wiped to show us how easy it all really is.
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#56 Jul 14 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Wow you guys must be pro players or something.

Last three days: Me and a tank had to carry a fight with the healer and mage in Haitali, where they died to the lightning drake.

Our LS Went to help a player go do Ifirt, we wiped two times after killing the Fetters smoothly.

And I personally got my face melted having the Dragon boss from Longstop turning to Dragon Breath + Venom Breath singeing me out for attacks. Then, mid fight, got revived, the IMMEDIATELY Venom Spit again.

So the 'Too easy' complaint isn't resonating with me. IF you already know what you're doing with every fight, it can be very easy. If not, stuff can go very wrong very quickly.


I wouldn't call myself pro, we we did just kill Ifrit completely naked.... It did help knowing the mechanics, but the gear was basically meaningless and the only reason I died was because of the lag on eruption from my server being JP-based.

I'm not saying there's no challenge, but I can't tell if what we did was based on our skill, or the fight being too easy.

Quote:
Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights


Rivenroad Hard was... If that wasn't up there then I never want to see this level of difficulty you hope for Ostia...

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 1:16pm by Louiscool


This is Rivenroad Hard As you can see, it is not an overly complicated fight, is a standard Tank & Spank, with adds.

This is Lich King 25 Hard Mode World First

This is Yogsaron 25 Hard Mode World First

Rivenroad is not even close, this is a not a shot at XIV, was the fight hard in comparison to XI and XIV content ? Yes! Was the fight the hardest fight in MMO history ? Not even close, that is all i am Saying.
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#57 Jul 14 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
This is just a beta


5 words that have haunted these forums for 3 years now Smiley: lol

Keysofgaruda wrote:
Anyone remember CoP? that airship fight was like a right of passage and i can deffinatley say that fight made me a better player.


I didn't really have any issues until Tenzen other than the odd person showing up missing a leg of the quest who couldn't enter. If I had to pick a fight that would've made me a better player it'd probably have been the moblin BC. Almost everyone I know just fought airship away from the spawn area and went all out until they could die and RR.


lol your right i chose the worst 5 words possible. I think those words holds more meaning now though as they really seem to be taking the beta extremely seriously this time.

And as for rivenroad hard not being close to the hardest fights in MMO's (reference to ostia's post)...really? were talking hard mode right, not the regular mission? Ive played tera, KotoR, XI, WoW, GW, GW2 and from those games...i can say i never found a fight as hard as rivenroad hard.

A lot of those MMO all had the same structure of gameplay where you just keep mages off to the side so there out of range, sleep adds ect. Riven road hard was extremely unforgiving to anyone. Just ONE time your out of position for his constant AoE attacks could easily wipe a party or make you lose a few minutes of progress should he absorb HP. And then theres him teleporting upstairs to charge an attack you have to cancel from him, and he also spawns a ton of golems for the party to deal with. BLM in that fight also gets mad respect for dealing with those meteors that fall. That final sequence from what our BLM's told us was a real pain in the ***.
#58 Jul 14 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Wow you guys must be pro players or something.

Last three days: Me and a tank had to carry a fight with the healer and mage in Haitali, where they died to the lightning drake.

Our LS Went to help a player go do Ifirt, we wiped two times after killing the Fetters smoothly.

And I personally got my face melted having the Dragon boss from Longstop turning to Dragon Breath + Venom Breath singeing me out for attacks. Then, mid fight, got revived, the IMMEDIATELY Venom Spit again.

So the 'Too easy' complaint isn't resonating with me. IF you already know what you're doing with every fight, it can be very easy. If not, stuff can go very wrong very quickly.


I wouldn't call myself pro, we we did just kill Ifrit completely naked.... It did help knowing the mechanics, but the gear was basically meaningless and the only reason I died was because of the lag on eruption from my server being JP-based.

I'm not saying there's no challenge, but I can't tell if what we did was based on our skill, or the fight being too easy.


Hm. I'll be testing the difference of receiving damage with or without armor later down the line then. Methinks it has more to do with Ifirit's damage mechanics than the actual fight itself. A level 20 primal is going to be easy if you've already memorized the pattern. (It's a fairly simple pattern.) But it's how the tank manages to survive with no armor that makes me blink a bit. Methinks healing may need a nerf that or damage received needs a buff.

Edit: A sidenote about resource mechanics, at around level, Conjurer has to make effort to maintain their MP or else they can burn out. (This means taking advantage of their traits.) Additionally, any lengthy fights have the physical damage dealers running out of TP. So exhaustion is a factor here, it's just introduced gradually. The only class that essentially has infinite resources is Thamaturge - and its damage scaling is currently tuned for it.

So long as the tank and players know how to evade or stun incoming attacks appropriately, then it's fine if the Conjurer isn't running out. When s/he starts having to revive members of the party is when his/her MP starts becoming taxed, and taxed quickly. I was only able to be revived in the Longstop fight once, then our WHM couldn't revive me again due to MP constraints.

Hey Ostia, where are your White Ravens? I wanna see them. Seriously if you think it wasn't hard you must make money playing video games. Only ~400 ever received that item. Unless you're one of them you really don't get the right to make judgement calls on that level of difficulty.




Edited, Jul 14th 2013 2:28pm by Hyrist
#59 Jul 14 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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DragonBourne wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with the difficulty. I feel they are on par with where they should be, given the small amount I was allowed to experience thus far. To be honest, I'm not looking forward to the part when the game closes off without having a horde of players dressed in top-tier gear. That's usually where it ends for me. Not because I don't want a challenge, but usually because it consists of grouping up with egotistical elitists, sadly.

Ostia wrote:
Now Hatali is again stupid easy, the second boss you can pull to the ramp and evade his electricity gimmick


Hmmm, must be nice to have a sightseer class in the group, because we wiped, due to not having one.

Quote:
Now Toto Rak is also stupid easy, the third one is not even hard, even if you dont attack the tail when he is ready to use his special ability, the damage he does is sad....


Again, wiped twice trying to figure out where the **** to go when he covers the area in poison. That sightseer class must be exclusive to elite players like yourself, cause I never seem to get grouped with one.


And I'm just curious, did you think it was more or less fun because you wiped? And I'm not saying that in any sort of sarcastic or condescending way... I'd really like to know your opinion with regards to that.

I think losing every once in awhile and having to think a little bit, tends to be more fun than tank and spank. Now that being said, I don't think it would be fun to lose a 90 minute raid session, but individual wipes, for me anyway add interest to the game.

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 3:10pm by ClydesShadow
#60 Jul 14 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Hm. I'll be testing the difference of receiving damage with or without armor later down the line then. Methinks it has more to do with Ifirit's damage mechanics than the actual fight itself. A level 20 primal is going to be easy if you've already memorized the pattern. (It's a fairly simple pattern.) But it's how the tank manages to survive with no armor that makes me blink a bit. Methinks healing may need a nerf that or damage received needs a buff.

Edit: A sidenote about resource mechanics, at around level, Conjurer has to make effort to maintain their MP or else they can burn out. (This means taking advantage of their traits.) Additionally, any lengthy fights have the physical damage dealers running out of TP. So exhaustion is a factor here, it's just introduced gradually. The only class that essentially has infinite resources is Thamaturge - and its damage scaling is currently tuned for it.


I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....
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#61 Jul 14 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Completing content lowman and undergeared has me worried. I know there are people of the opinion that gear shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not you are tall enough to ride, but the threshold has to be present somewhere. If the only requirement to defeating content is that you be a certain level or just having certain abilities, I don't see that playing out too well for the prospect of a challenging endgame...
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#62 Jul 14 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Completing content lowman and undergeared has me worried. I know there are people of the opinion that gear shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not you are tall enough to ride, but the threshold has to be present somewhere. If the only requirement to defeating content is that you be a certain level or just having certain abilities, I don't see that playing out too well for the prospect of a challenging endgame...


I believe that beyond the first trial (Ifrit)... maybe even beyond the second, it's not going to fly walking into a battle in your birthday suit.

I do think there is a level of skepticism about the difficulty of this game due to the fact that we're only getting access to the opening areas.

I'm also simultaneously optimistic that once we start to progress into the 30+ zones, things will start to get a bit more challenging.

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 5:19pm by ClydesShadow
#63 Jul 14 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.
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#64 Jul 14 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


Don't CNJs currently have essentially unlimited MP?
#65 Jul 14 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


Don't CNJs currently have essentially unlimited MP?


They might at lower levels, don't know about higher ones. But that's your challenge right there.. as long as your healer simply cannot run out of MP, you can pretty much never die in any encounter that doesn't one-shot people.
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#66 Jul 14 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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IMO conjurer isn't just supposed to heal (at least in the beta test so far)... Stone 2 does pretty OK damage and when playing another class than CNJ I always find it a bit frustrating when some lazy conjurers never bother to DPS inbetween heals...! Of course it gets easy/boring if u don't play ur class... '-'
#67 Jul 14 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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Akumane wrote:
IMO conjurer isn't just supposed to heal (at least in the beta test so far)... Stone 2 does pretty OK damage and when playing another class than CNJ I always find it a bit frustrating when some lazy conjurers never bother to DPS inbetween heals...! Of course it gets easy/boring if u don't play ur class... '-'


Well....if conjurer has unlimited mp while just healing.....then that's what's going to happen. No encounter so far has required extra dps from the healer, and having a healer with infinite mp makes it so you can never die.
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#68 Jul 14 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.
#69 Jul 14 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.


I haven't played Conjurer outside of phase 2, and I didn't do any dungeons in phase 2. I was responding to what Louiscool said.. it's actually in the quote you quoted.

Since I haven't played the class myself in any meaningful sense, I was basing my information (and therefore my response) on the information I was given. I'm sorry if it made you upset, but you actually didn't just get finished explaining how healer MP is limited here. If you did it in another thread, then I haven't read that. If you'd like to respond to Louis with your own data and experience, you should respond to him.
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#70 Jul 14 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.


1) You cannot raise during combat (as far as I can tell)
2) I haven't seen or encountered any hate issues in my runs. To be fair, in all cases, either I or my friend was the tank and we both have extensive experience tanking in XI and XIV.
3) Infinite may be the wrong word. Fights don't last long enough for mp to become an issue. We beat Ifrit, naked, in 7 minutes. I pressed cure every 2 seconds (or whatever the GCD is). The only time was failed was when our random 4th member (fully geared) failed to dodge eruption, or when I failed to dodge it. I even had time to keep Aero on Ifrit, and Stone 2 / Aero the needle when it popped up.

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 11:38pm by Louiscool
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#71 Jul 14 2013 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.


I haven't played Conjurer outside of phase 2, and I didn't do any dungeons in phase 2. I was responding to what Louiscool said.. it's actually in the quote you quoted.

Since I haven't played the class myself in any meaningful sense, I was basing my information (and therefore my response) on the information I was given. I'm sorry if it made you upset, but you actually didn't just get finished explaining how healer MP is limited here. If you did it in another thread, then I haven't read that. If you'd like to respond to Louis with your own data and experience, you should respond to him.


I played CNJ for the great majority of P3. I didn't really have any MP issues until the last boss of Toto Rak. Between cures and medicas and Esunas and a quick aero here and there I was really low on MP by the end of the fight.

During the trash mob fights I could keep the tank up with no problems and still get in plenty of aero and stone 2 casts for sure. The issue I feel is that CNJ (at level 24 anyway) only really has those very few abilities. Level 26 gets a sleep spell though so there's an opportunity for some crowd control responsibility too.

Either way I had so much fun playing it. I'll definitely be starting off the same come P4.



Edited, Jul 14th 2013 8:42pm by LebargeX
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#72 Jul 14 2013 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

1) You cannot raise during combat (as far as I can tell)

There's a level 28 trait allowing you to cast raise during battle.
#73 Jul 14 2013 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.


Who says MMORPG leveling needs to be easy (monotonous)?


I guess it depends on whether or not the developer likes money.
#74 Jul 14 2013 at 11:08 PM Rating: Default
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LebargeX wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.


I haven't played Conjurer outside of phase 2, and I didn't do any dungeons in phase 2. I was responding to what Louiscool said.. it's actually in the quote you quoted.

Since I haven't played the class myself in any meaningful sense, I was basing my information (and therefore my response) on the information I was given. I'm sorry if it made you upset, but you actually didn't just get finished explaining how healer MP is limited here. If you did it in another thread, then I haven't read that. If you'd like to respond to Louis with your own data and experience, you should respond to him.


I played CNJ for the great majority of P3. I didn't really have any MP issues until the last boss of Toto Rak. Between cures and medicas and Esunas and a quick aero here and there I was really low on MP by the end of the fight.

During the trash mob fights I could keep the tank up with no problems and still get in plenty of aero and stone 2 casts for sure. The issue I feel is that CNJ (at level 24 anyway) only really has those very few abilities. Level 26 gets a sleep spell though so there's an opportunity for some crowd control responsibility too.

Either way I had so much fun playing it. I'll definitely be starting off the same come P4.



Edited, Jul 14th 2013 8:42pm by LebargeX


Sleep is a waste of MP currently, there is no reason to sleep a mob, an extra mob has little to no consequential outcome in a trash pull, hopefully on higher levels CC starts playing a major part of gameplay.
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#75 Jul 15 2013 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
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It seems like a lot of broken records around here:

MMO vet: The game is too easy, there needs to be more challenge! All of these dungeons up to level 25 are too easy. Me and my experienced MMO buddies steamrolled through the first 6 dungeons. If you think these are hard then you've never played the first 5 dungeons of ____, ____, and especially ____!

Therefore the game will _____!

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Is this the basic argument? Because as others have pointed out we're still out of, I'd say, the majority of the game. Secondly, most of us playing now, even in beta, are probably MMO vets; when release happens I'm sure the failure rate will be much higher, especially with those newbies using the duty finder. Thirdly, SE has no incentive to make the content difficult especially in the beginning; these are (as repeated) tutorial dungeons and dungeons that are needed to be completed to access further content. (Not to mention the fact as Karl has pointed out SE has no incentive monetarily to make things any more difficult, especially early on.)

Also there's a handful of anecdotal stories, mine included, that really prove nothing about the difficulty one way or the other. If anything it seems as though the difficulty really has more to do about class balance or enmity tweaks.

My story earlier in the thread was just to show how a fight could turn out and that a well organized team can do things a regular PUG couldn't; against a boss/specific event... (although a 3 man with no tank would have ironically a very tough time with trash mobs as we did.)

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To Parallel:

In FFXI, the most fun and skillful parts for me, were soloing content. I had to create my difficulty in some respects, especially since I never made it to endgame. Groups, at least leveling groups, weren't too difficult. And really both ARR and FFXI seem to be around the same difficulty around the same levels.

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The Point:

The thing is, ARR holds your hand, or rather guides you through content. And ironically, a reason why people may think earlier dungeons in other games were harder, was because those other games did horrible jobs with introducing to content and your class.

Other games just throw you into the fray and that's not necessarily difficult, but rather seems like bad design.

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People are looking for things that are unique about FFXIV, I think the handholding and needing to pass group content to progress, is right in front of people's faces but are refusing to acknowledge it. It is a brilliant mix of FFXI and WoW and I haven't seen any other MMO do this; require people to group in a dungeon setting this early on.
#76 Jul 15 2013 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
The Point:

The thing is, ARR holds your hand, or rather guides you through content. And ironically, a reason why people may think earlier dungeons in other games were harder, was because those other games did horrible jobs with introducing to content and your class.

Other games just throw you into the fray and that's not necessarily difficult, but rather seems like bad design.


I'm not sure I'd call it bad design. The times I learned most about MMOs in my time playing them was usually following a few wipes. At some point you stop and ask yourself what is going wrong and is there anything myself or someone in my group can do to fix it. I don't think people necessarily want these dungeons to be on the level of Yogg or LK, but it would promote learning and teamwork if they were at least challenging.

You could say the same thing about bad design if content is too easy. If it's supposed to be a guided tutorial then it's not working if you don't have to do much more than spam the same abilities you could outside playing solo against the local fauna.

Kierk wrote:
It is a brilliant mix of FFXI and WoW and I haven't seen any other MMO do this; require people to group in a dungeon setting this early on.

I don't recall any MMOs that don't have you grouping early on for content, including XI. Everything I can think of that I've played had me grouping with other players for instanced content around level 10 at the latest.
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#77 Jul 15 2013 at 4:53 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Kierk wrote:
It is a brilliant mix of FFXI and WoW and I haven't seen any other MMO do this; require people to group in a dungeon setting this early on.

I don't recall any MMOs that don't have you grouping early on for content, including XI. Everything I can think of that I've played had me grouping with other players for instanced content around level 10 at the latest.

It's optional in SWTOR. You don't have to do the heroics and 1st flashpoint in order to advance the story and start the 2nd planet.
#78 Jul 15 2013 at 5:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Filth:

To your first point, people have wiped on the first dungeons in ARR and have had to come up with strategies on how to beat them.

And again, for seasoned players these dungeons should be, and are, a walk in the park. For others, especially someone's first MMO the entire experience can be and is very daunting.

Should SE cater to the lowest common denominator? Sure, especially since difficulty can be ramped up along with the playerbase and at later levels. I would also be open (as I've stated) to Heroic versions of these dungeons later, but now is not the time.

The more skilled would blow past the low level instances anyway (not saying it's an excuse for lazy design) and will be on to the more challenging content. Keeping the lower level instances easy doesn't alienate a big chunk of the playerbase, familiarizes everyone with it and at endgame where difficult content should be; it is. (Or where we're all assuming it will be)

Yoshi isn't assuming we're all coming from WoW, or Rift of EQ; that we even know what a raid is. But by endgame everyone will.

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Second point:

I should have clarified: required in order to obtain key game content and progress further into the game.

In every other MMO you can easily get by, by soloing to cap and then showing up to the 20-man.

Dungeons here are used here and encouraged to level. Every other game has it where dungeons for the most part are optional.

I haven't admittedly played WoW in a few years, but I have most recently played Rift and GW2 and both of those I could solo without any grouping whatsoever.

FFXI at least for the BCs and Genkais forced you to group to keep playing or at the very least enjoying the main quest, again, FFXIV borrows that idea but throws in the more classic dungeon content. And it's something that I haven't seen before.
#79Killua125, Posted: Jul 15 2013 at 5:14 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Are you saying easier games make more money? Because you're so wrong.
#80 Jul 15 2013 at 6:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
Filth:

To your first point, people have wiped on the first dungeons in ARR and have had to come up with strategies on how to beat them.

Not suggesting that they haven't, just that the more challenging the dungeons are, the more likely that is to happen.

Kierk wrote:
Sure, especially since difficulty can be ramped up along with the playerbase and at later levels.

Doing that does nothing to help those people though. Opinion incoming, but if they're going to ramp up difficulty it should happen at a steady curve rather than all at the end. Otherwise you get there with no clue on what to do.

Kierk wrote:
In every other MMO you can easily get by, by soloing to cap and then showing up to the 20-man.

I'm not sure I understand... the 20-man what?

I get that the dungeons are necessary for quests in XIV, but people almost always do dungeons in other games for gear. Dungeon related quests and gear to kill mobs faster makes questing/grinding faster and you can queue while you solo. It's encouraged in every game I've played. I'm not really sure what forced grouping has to do with dungeon difficulty anyway though...
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#81 Jul 15 2013 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Hard is mostly relative to the people in your group. I have to tell this ti all people that really think they want a challenge. If you want the content to be more challenging as you level then level with horrible players. Plenty of bad players in games and will make these leveling dungeons more interesting.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 9:16am by Mopdaddy
#82 Jul 15 2013 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are you saying easier games make more money? Because you're so wrong.


No, easier games make more money... this is truths.

I'm not saying this content should be harder or anything, really.. I think we're all just AFRAID that this is indicative of future content. I have endless faith in Yoshi-P. He knows the hardcore player's concerns. He's heard them, and he's assured us we aren't left behind.

But.. for people who don't have that faith, there's nothing else to go on but the current content, hence the understandable worries.

Also.. FANTASTIC news about raise, thanks! I didn't get an opportunity to try that out, as all my content was 20ish. When we went roaming with our 50's to find harder stuff to limit break on, there was never a chance of death, being that the highest level mobs are like 48.
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#83 Jul 15 2013 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Are you saying easier games make more money? Because you're so wrong.

No, easier games make more money... this is truths.

Can anyone on either side of this argument provide support for their position?

Easier vs harder is a subjective matter. "Makes more money" though should be something that can be supported with evidence. Since a game can succeed or fail due to many factors, a single game from the "easy" and "hard" category is not sufficient either.
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#84 Jul 15 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm not really sure what forced grouping has to do with dungeon difficulty anyway though...
If dungeons are not optional, they have to be clearable by the majority of players. This then has to take into consideration those who are new to MMO and group play in general. So you end up with dungeons that are fairly easy for the veteran player.

I didn't have an issue with the dungeon difficulty for the first couple dungeons. I was sad that it didn't really ramp up much in the later ones, but it's not a huge deal to me. It'd be nice if there were difficulty modes that provide a bit better EXP and gear. So, a "story mode" difficulty at the current level, and a harder mode for farming. Of course, I understand why they don't do this; it splits the population and players will have a difficult time finding groups for the story mode, making it harder for less experienced players to progress.

Anyway, I think that the whole "party mechanics aren't required" thing is a bit overstated here. In an experienced group, maybe you don't need flawless party work in order to clear the content, but there have been instances where I've seen the need for it. The dungeons certainly involve more situational awareness than the normal open world solo content. Hate mechanics aren't terribly hard if everyone hits the same target. If you have multiple DD who understand their abilities and do good damage, and they're attacking different mobs, it can get a little wonky. Trash packs remaining whole for longer periods of time compounded with damage going out to multiple parties if a DD pulls hate can introduce a level of stress on a healer that isn't found in solo play.

Look, there's nothing revolutionary about the dungeon mechanics. The difficulty ramps up a bit more gently than I'd prefer, but I think that they're sufficiently difficult to teach new-to-group-play players the basics of party mechanics. They teach the basics of tanking. Conal abilities teach you to face mobs away from the party. Red **** on the ground teaches you to move. The last fight in Brayflox's Longstop teaches you to kite the boss out of a buff zone. Sure, all this stuff may be apparent to you, the veteran player, but it's new to some people.

I think the biggest issue is that there's no real difficult mechanic for DDs to handle in dungeons, in general. In most games, even. Don't pull hate, don't stand in ****, don't stand in front of the mobs. There aren't really any fights in the beginner dungeons where a DD has to watch their cooldowns, and then burst damage when a boss is temporarily weakened, for example. Maybe they have to click some lamps or DPS down some adds, but generally speaking, DD is pretty straightforward, and from what I saw, it didn't really increase in complexity throughout the first dungeons. While the tank and healer are learning party mechanics, the DD only has to learn "hit what the tank is hitting". Then again, I don't remember a recent MMO (featuring the classic trinity) where DD was overly complicated. Extended fights where the healer and tank run low on resources, as well as rage timers force DD to push their damage, but I don't really remember any truly interesting DD mechanics.

I don't really have a point, other than to say that the difficulty in mandatory dungeons that gate content is going to be designed for your least common denominator player. That said, I thought that the dungeons provided sufficient challenge to teach a group of new players the basics of party play.
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#85 Jul 15 2013 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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ClydesShadow wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Completing content lowman and undergeared has me worried. I know there are people of the opinion that gear shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not you are tall enough to ride, but the threshold has to be present somewhere. If the only requirement to defeating content is that you be a certain level or just having certain abilities, I don't see that playing out too well for the prospect of a challenging endgame...


I believe that beyond the first trial (Ifrit)... maybe even beyond the second, it's not going to fly walking into a battle in your birthday suit.

I do think there is a level of skepticism about the difficulty of this game due to the fact that we're only getting access to the opening areas.

I'm also simultaneously optimistic that once we start to progress into the 30+ zones, things will start to get a bit more challenging.

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 5:19pm by ClydesShadow

Just FYI I was able to run around every zone they have in game right now and only worried once about dying and that was b.c the trail went to a dead end as I was Training lvl 48+ mobs. The higher level zones are very small, that floating city zone is so freaking small I couldn't believe it.
#86 Jul 15 2013 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Mopdaddy wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Completing content lowman and undergeared has me worried. I know there are people of the opinion that gear shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not you are tall enough to ride, but the threshold has to be present somewhere. If the only requirement to defeating content is that you be a certain level or just having certain abilities, I don't see that playing out too well for the prospect of a challenging endgame...


I believe that beyond the first trial (Ifrit)... maybe even beyond the second, it's not going to fly walking into a battle in your birthday suit.

I do think there is a level of skepticism about the difficulty of this game due to the fact that we're only getting access to the opening areas.

I'm also simultaneously optimistic that once we start to progress into the 30+ zones, things will start to get a bit more challenging.

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 5:19pm by ClydesShadow

Just FYI I was able to run around every zone they have in game right now and only worried once about dying and that was b.c the trail went to a dead end as I was Training lvl 48+ mobs. The higher level zones are very small, that floating city zone is so freaking small I couldn't believe it.


Did you go through any of the strongholds? Because I can't imagine you getting too far into the Amal'jaa, Kobold, Sylph, or Sahagin camps without getting massacred. Those zones were packed with 48-49 mobs. They also extended on quite a bit where I couldn't get to. Also, keep in mind that it looks like a ton of areas are blocked off. I noticed many entrance points in every zone I travelled through (I went through them all thoroughly) that were gated, or blocked by rubble.
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#87 Jul 15 2013 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Hi, what you think about the manor dungeon difficulty? ( not asking about satasha/hatalati/ifrit, because for me they was just maked for training the basics ) ( sorry for my english )
#88 Jul 15 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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klooste8 wrote:
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Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights...... It was hard if you only played XI, and never touched another MMO

yep that's me. But I thought XI was pretty hard

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 9:43am by klooste8

That's like people thinking WoW is easy. In reality only 20% of people can actually finish the original heroic content in WoW. Was even worse before they made changes.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:03am by Mopdaddy
#89 Jul 15 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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smzfw wrote:
Hi, what you think about the manor dungeon difficulty? ( not asking about satasha/hatalati/ifrit, because for me they was just maked for training the basics ) ( sorry for my english )


I'd say it was the most difficult of all dungeons, but by my standards it was pretty easy. I only wiped once because I didn't notice how close two handmaidens were when I was pulling, but eh, mistakes happen. It's a good jump in difficulty for newcomers and that's what truly matters. I've met players who were terrible tanks or bad DPS, which required me to pick up the slack.

Ironically I've yet to meet a bad healer.

Mopdaddy wrote:
klooste8 wrote:
Quote:


Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights...... It was hard if you only played XI, and never touched another MMO

yep that's me. But I thought XI was pretty hard

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 9:43am by klooste8

That's like people thinking WoW is easy. In reality only 20% of people can actually finish the original heroic content in WoW. Was even worse before they made changes.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:03am by Mopdaddy


To be honest XI wasn't hard, and it only got easier as time went on. XI, on it's basic levels, is just a gear check system. The better your gear, the easier it is, exponentially speaking. That isn't to say it doesn't take skill, but a lot of that was just reading up on mechanics and cheating the RNG.

The most fun I had on XI was solo/duoing content that was meant for full parties, because that went beyond the gear check system.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 9:26am by HeroMystic
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#90 Jul 15 2013 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mopdaddy wrote:
klooste8 wrote:
Quote:


Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights...... It was hard if you only played XI, and never touched another MMO

yep that's me. But I thought XI was pretty hard

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 9:43am by klooste8

That's like people thinking WoW is easy. In reality only 20% of people can actually finish the original heroic content in WoW. Was even worse before they made changes.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:03am by Mopdaddy


Same can be said about Chains of Promethia, killing Absolute Virtue, or Pandy Warden. Making content hard isn't difficult to do, making it fun is.
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#91 Jul 15 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Are you saying easier games make more money? Because you're so wrong.


No, easier games make more money... this is truths.


Prove it.
#92 Jul 15 2013 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:


1) You cannot raise during combat (as far as I can tell)
2) I haven't seen or encountered any hate issues in my runs. To be fair, in all cases, either I or my friend was the tank and we both have extensive experience tanking in XI and XIV.
3) Infinite may be the wrong word. Fights don't last long enough for mp to become an issue. We beat Ifrit, naked, in 7 minutes. I pressed cure every 2 seconds (or whatever the GCD is). The only time was failed was when our random 4th member (fully geared) failed to dodge eruption, or when I failed to dodge it. I even had time to keep Aero on Ifrit, and Stone 2 / Aero the needle when it popped up.


I'm going to start assigning homework to people who don't do their research before posting. The level of spreading misinformation on these forums is to **** high!

1) Yes you can.
2) Subjective. I have. Again, the exhaustion factor happens when things go wrong. Someone stood in a plume without his HP capped off, someone didn't get out of the electrified lake on time. Someone tried to stun a bomb forgetting their stun skill is on cooldown. Someone diddn't their combat rotations right. The team diddn't focus the proper adds.

If you do everything right the fight ends in short order and you get out of it thinking it is easy. Each time you slip up, you add to the duration of the fight and the exhaustion begins to show itself. I'm not talking in theoretical, I've been participating in it (Trying to break Duty finder) all week.

3)
Quote:
The only time was failed was when our random 4th member (fully geared) failed to dodge eruption, or when I failed to dodge it.


Right here, you prove my point. "Failed to Dodge Eruption" This means you went in naked to a level 20 run, then called the fight easy when you preformed the fight perfectly. Once someone messed up, you failed regardless of the gear you wore. The fact that you failed on a slip up kinda kills the argument for it being easy. I'd concede an argument claiming that the low level boss fights are simple - because that's what they are for sake of being a teaching tool. But easy? They're only easy if you're following the lessons taught by the fight, which means the fight has fulfilled its purpose.

I'm not trying to insult you guys, I just detest the spread of misinformation. I play with a group called the Old Timers Guild. That name aptly describes a lot of its members, some of them are long MMO veterans, some are just hobbyists looking for a game to settle in, others are joining pretty much for their first MMO. The difference in experience shows, heck, just the simple difference in gaming background shows. Between helping them and the Duty Finder I get a fairly wide range of gameplay experiences and styles to sample. What you guys are describing is not average. Needing to wipe twice for the players to start understanding the mechanics typically is, and the game is very forgiving in this regard.

But if you're already an MMO vet, this content is going to be easy - because you already get the concept of pealing off adds, managing hate, learning and evading area attack patterns and focusing objectives such as Infernal Fetters and Void Lamps. If you're not, these fights take some getting used to, and the frequency of things going wrong starts going up exponentially. That's when the fights drag on, and that's when you start feeling the exhaustion mechanics.

The argument that is more the gray area and worth discussion for me is 'when is it right to take off the training wheels?' For me I think that comes synonymous of 'at what level do you want your players to spend the most time?' Because at that exact moment you do, you'll bottleneck your playerbase. My guess is Yoshida wants everyone to play at 50, so he keeps the difficulty curve gradual until 50, which at that point you expect to understand the bulk of the mechanics you're going to face.

If we start having this conversation about Ifrit Extreme, then I'll be concerned. But right now the pieces are in place. We're just ahead of the curve.

And to be honest, I'm having fun, easy or not.
#93 Jul 15 2013 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Mopdaddy wrote:
klooste8 wrote:
Quote:


Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights...... It was hard if you only played XI, and never touched another MMO

yep that's me. But I thought XI was pretty hard

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 9:43am by klooste8

That's like people thinking WoW is easy. In reality only 20% of people can actually finish the original heroic content in WoW. Was even worse before they made changes.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:03am by Mopdaddy


Same can be said about Chains of Promethia, killing Absolute Virtue, or Pandy Warden. Making content hard isn't difficult to do, making it fun is.


^This. CoP on launch was a BEAR. Just getting through the promyvions before they nerfed down the amount of mobs and the boss battles at the end was very tough. Phomiuna and Sacrarium, same thing. Both Riverne Sites were tough, the battle against the Mammets was crazy hard before they nerfed it, especially if they locked into warrior or blm form. Snoll was a ridiculously tough DPS race at launch simply because the gear wasn't as good and you couldn't stall him for an extra 15s. The Tenzen fight was tough, the airship battle was tough... they were all really difficult fights, but very rewarding.

To say FFXI was easy is silly. I've done 25-man Lich King. It was definitely a challenge, but no more so than CoP on launch. In fact, I had a MUCH tougher time getting through all of CoP initially than I did w/ ICC, and we beat that only about 2 months after the world-first on Lich King in WoW, so he hadn't really been nerfed at all yet.

Both games offered a challenge, and it gets old when people constantly bash FFXI as this easy-mode game that was just grindy. That just isn't true at all. For another example, try having fought Ark Angels when they were released and tell me they were easy. Heck, even stuff like Byakko at launch of sky was a very tough fight.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:33am by BartelX
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#94 Jul 15 2013 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.


Who says MMORPG leveling needs to be easy (monotonous)?


I guess it depends on whether or not the developer likes money.


Are you saying easier games make more money? Because you're so wrong.


I'm saying that if they can't retain new players long enough to get hooked on the game, they'll make a lot less money. If people quit the game out of frustration or because it seems like an impenetrable wall, they make less money.

There are no stone tablets handed down by MMO Jehovah to let every one know what designers MUST or MUST NOT do, but I think I'm not spoiling a secret when I say that the design of ARR is very much based on making sure players can get gradually acclimated to the game, even if that means MMO vets get a little bored along the way. Even if that hadn't been said explicitly in interviews, you can see that from the design of the game itself.

I don't think the goal is to make the game "easy" but to make it *accessible* to the greatest number of people possible.

MMO vets under estimate the amount of learning they've done in previous games, how long it took them, and what that looks like for some one who is fresh to MMOs. By the time I left WoW a few years ago, PvP or Raiding was practically like flying a helicopter with my 50 hot keys and encyclopedic knowledge of hundreds of abilities and map objectives. There's no way you can make content that's going to challenge me that doesn't scare away new players. I'd rather see them get the hand holding they need so when we get to 50 and the content is at least mildly interesting, they can keep up with a short learning window.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:45am by KarlHungis
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#95 Jul 15 2013 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Mopdaddy wrote:
klooste8 wrote:
Quote:


Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights...... It was hard if you only played XI, and never touched another MMO

yep that's me. But I thought XI was pretty hard

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 9:43am by klooste8

That's like people thinking WoW is easy. In reality only 20% of people can actually finish the original heroic content in WoW. Was even worse before they made changes.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:03am by Mopdaddy


Same can be said about Chains of Promethia, killing Absolute Virtue, or Pandy Warden. Making content hard isn't difficult to do, making it fun is.


^This. CoP on launch was a BEAR. Just getting through the promyvions before they nerfed down the amount of mobs and the boss battles at the end was very tough. Phomiuna and Sacrarium, same thing. Both Riverne Sites were tough, the battle against the Mammets was crazy hard before they nerfed it, especially if they locked into warrior or blm form. Snoll was a ridiculously tough DPS race at launch simply because the gear wasn't as good and you couldn't stall him for an extra 15s. The Tenzen fight was tough, the airship battle was tough... they were all really difficult fights, but very rewarding.

To say FFXI was easy is silly. I've done 25-man Lich King. It was definitely a challenge, but no more so than CoP on launch. In fact, I had a MUCH tougher time getting through all of CoP initially than I did w/ ICC, and we beat that only about 2 months after the world-first on Lich King in WoW, so he hadn't really been nerfed at all yet.

Both games offered a challenge, and it gets old when people constantly bash FFXI as this easy-mode game that was just grindy. That just isn't true at all. For another example, try having fought Ark Angels when they were released and tell me they were easy. Heck, even stuff like Byakko at launch of sky was a very tough fight.


I'm amused most of the examples stated was pre-ToAU era, when we couldn't even figure out if Elemental Staves were better than wands.

Saying the game was hard when content first came out is kinda silly in of itself, because we didn't know anything. It was less that the content itself was hard and more of the game just had a gimmick that we needed to learn about first. I fought against Ark Angels at launch and it was a blast, but soon after people found that you can just 18-man BLM it to death with no problem as long as everyone had good gear. CoP was more of the exception than the norm. While I'd say the content was mostly easy, players were just too lazy to be fully prepared for it.
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#96 Jul 15 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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CoP was nerfed 3 time and had all of 30% of the player base completed it before the cap was removed. You want to say the difficulty wasn't a factor in that, go ahead and speculate - but that's not the type of statistic you want to see on an expansion after several years.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:01am by Hyrist
#97 Jul 15 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Right here, you prove my point. "Failed to Dodge Eruption" This means you went in naked to a level 20 run, then called the fight easy when you preformed the fight perfectly. Once someone messed up, you failed regardless of the gear you wore.


Screenshot


Oh yes, things went perfectly, and I'm a total stranger to these "mechanics" you speak of, Hyrist.

That's a Drg tanking Ifrit, strafing his flamethrowers while the Brd main heals, because I died on hellfire, and the SHIELDLESS pld died after.

Oh do tell me how things went perfectly. We won right here, btw. I'm not saying that our skill and experience didn't make this win possible... but I was also pretty drunk on top of being a TERRIBLE healer soo.. this was the first time I healed in ARR.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:18am by Louiscool
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#98 Jul 15 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
CoP was nerfed 3 time and had all of 30% of the player base completed it before the cap was removed. You want to say the difficulty wasn't a factor in that, go ahead and speculate - but that's not the type of statistic you want to see on an expansion after several years.


I'm one of those people who didn't complete CoP before the cap was removed, which is why I say it's more of an exception to the norm. If I'm completely honest though I can't say CoP was "too hard" in most cases, just that getting through it was a major hassle. Most of the nerfs came from "Quality of Life" issues such as allowing animas and items similar to that on the Auction House. Even then, no matter how much I tried to truck through it, players just wouldn't have their stuff ready.

I guess I shouldn't say players were too lazy to prepare, but rather it was too much busywork.
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#99 Jul 15 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.


Who says MMORPG leveling needs to be easy (monotonous)?


I guess it depends on whether or not the developer likes money.


Are you saying easier games make more money? Because you're so wrong.


I'm saying that if they can't retain new players long enough to get hooked on the game, they'll make a lot less money. If people quit the game out of frustration or because it seems like an impenetrable wall, they make less money.


You act like the next step beyond "brain dead, made-for-babies, easy" is "impenetrable wall".

There is some middle ground that provides a challenge, makes people think, but is by no means frustrating or impossible.

By the way, any instance that you can complete without gear is totally unacceptable in a gear-based MMORPG, no matter how 'skilled' the players are.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:20am by Killua125
#100 Jul 15 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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HeroMystic wrote:
I'm amused most of the examples stated was pre-ToAU era, when we couldn't even figure out if Elemental Staves were better than wands.

Saying the game was hard when content first came out is kinda silly in of itself, because we didn't know anything. It was less that the content itself was hard and more of the game just had a gimmick that we needed to learn about first. I fought against Ark Angels at launch and it was a blast, but soon after people found that you can just 18-man BLM it to death with no problem as long as everyone had good gear. CoP was more of the exception than the norm. While I'd say the content was mostly easy, players were just too lazy to be fully prepared for it.


Ok, well Einherjar wasn't easy either. Nor was a lot of salvage. Nor was Pandemonium Warden. ZNM's weren't all a cakewalk, and the top tiers were definitely challenging. Heck, even Dynamis held quite a challenge for a long time and required a lot of coordination among an alliance to get through. Also, AA came out in what, 2005? The 18-man blm spam wasn't even utilized for a couple years after that, and was a gimmick t best.

Why would we not talk about how hard content is when it's released? That's kind of the whole point... before it all gets nerfed down and there are a billion strategies to master before even starting it. Doing Ulduar or ICC now in WoW isn't NEARLY as tough as it was when it launched.

Laziness had very little to do with much of the difficulty in XI. Inexperience was definitely a factor, as was not being top-geared, but skill played a very large role in the outcome of most fights in FFXI in my experiences. I'm hopeful it carries over to XIV.
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#101 Jul 15 2013 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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HeroMystic wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
CoP was nerfed 3 time and had all of 30% of the player base completed it before the cap was removed. You want to say the difficulty wasn't a factor in that, go ahead and speculate - but that's not the type of statistic you want to see on an expansion after several years.


I'm one of those people who didn't complete CoP before the cap was removed, which is why I say it's more of an exception to the norm. If I'm completely honest though I can't say CoP was "too hard" in most cases, just that getting through it was a major hassle. Most of the nerfs came from "Quality of Life" issues such as allowing animas and items similar to that on the Auction House. Even then, no matter how much I tried to truck through it, players just wouldn't have their stuff ready.

I guess I shouldn't say players were too lazy to prepare, but rather it was too much busywork.


I completed the promys pre-nerf and then gave up right before the dragon fight (onryu or whatever? Earth Dragon dude..) because it was sooo taxing to get people to prepare for it, buy proper gear, gt those items you needed, etc...

Quote:
You act like the next step beyond "brain dead, made-for-babies, easy" is "impenetrable wall".

There is some middle ground that provides a challenge, makes people think, but is by no means frustrating or impossible.


And there's evidence to show that "Insanely difficult" gets a lot more sales than expected. Look at Demon's / Dark Souls, or Ninja Gaiden.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:21am by Louiscool
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