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#52 Jul 14 2013 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights...... It was hard if you only played XI, and never touched another MMO

yep that's me. But I thought XI was pretty hard

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 9:43am by klooste8
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#53 Jul 14 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Default
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Ostia your awesome......
#54 Jul 14 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Wow you guys must be pro players or something.

Last three days: Me and a tank had to carry a fight with the healer and mage in Haitali, where they died to the lightning drake.

Our LS Went to help a player go do Ifirt, we wiped two times after killing the Fetters smoothly.

And I personally got my face melted having the Dragon boss from Longstop turning to Dragon Breath + Venom Breath singeing me out for attacks. Then, mid fight, got revived, the IMMEDIATELY Venom Spit again.

So the 'Too easy' complaint isn't resonating with me. IF you already know what you're doing with every fight, it can be very easy. If not, stuff can go very wrong very quickly.


I wouldn't call myself pro, we we did just kill Ifrit completely naked.... It did help knowing the mechanics, but the gear was basically meaningless and the only reason I died was because of the lag on eruption from my server being JP-based.

I'm not saying there's no challenge, but I can't tell if what we did was based on our skill, or the fight being too easy.

Quote:
Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights


Rivenroad Hard was... If that wasn't up there then I never want to see this level of difficulty you hope for Ostia...

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 1:16pm by Louiscool
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#55 Jul 14 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ahh the age of YouTube. Wonder how many times those pioneers wiped to show us how easy it all really is.
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#56 Jul 14 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Wow you guys must be pro players or something.

Last three days: Me and a tank had to carry a fight with the healer and mage in Haitali, where they died to the lightning drake.

Our LS Went to help a player go do Ifirt, we wiped two times after killing the Fetters smoothly.

And I personally got my face melted having the Dragon boss from Longstop turning to Dragon Breath + Venom Breath singeing me out for attacks. Then, mid fight, got revived, the IMMEDIATELY Venom Spit again.

So the 'Too easy' complaint isn't resonating with me. IF you already know what you're doing with every fight, it can be very easy. If not, stuff can go very wrong very quickly.


I wouldn't call myself pro, we we did just kill Ifrit completely naked.... It did help knowing the mechanics, but the gear was basically meaningless and the only reason I died was because of the lag on eruption from my server being JP-based.

I'm not saying there's no challenge, but I can't tell if what we did was based on our skill, or the fight being too easy.

Quote:
Riven Road was not even close to being a top 20 on the hardest MMO fights


Rivenroad Hard was... If that wasn't up there then I never want to see this level of difficulty you hope for Ostia...

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 1:16pm by Louiscool


This is Rivenroad Hard As you can see, it is not an overly complicated fight, is a standard Tank & Spank, with adds.

This is Lich King 25 Hard Mode World First

This is Yogsaron 25 Hard Mode World First

Rivenroad is not even close, this is a not a shot at XIV, was the fight hard in comparison to XI and XIV content ? Yes! Was the fight the hardest fight in MMO history ? Not even close, that is all i am Saying.
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#57 Jul 14 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
This is just a beta


5 words that have haunted these forums for 3 years now Smiley: lol

Keysofgaruda wrote:
Anyone remember CoP? that airship fight was like a right of passage and i can deffinatley say that fight made me a better player.


I didn't really have any issues until Tenzen other than the odd person showing up missing a leg of the quest who couldn't enter. If I had to pick a fight that would've made me a better player it'd probably have been the moblin BC. Almost everyone I know just fought airship away from the spawn area and went all out until they could die and RR.


lol your right i chose the worst 5 words possible. I think those words holds more meaning now though as they really seem to be taking the beta extremely seriously this time.

And as for rivenroad hard not being close to the hardest fights in MMO's (reference to ostia's post)...really? were talking hard mode right, not the regular mission? Ive played tera, KotoR, XI, WoW, GW, GW2 and from those games...i can say i never found a fight as hard as rivenroad hard.

A lot of those MMO all had the same structure of gameplay where you just keep mages off to the side so there out of range, sleep adds ect. Riven road hard was extremely unforgiving to anyone. Just ONE time your out of position for his constant AoE attacks could easily wipe a party or make you lose a few minutes of progress should he absorb HP. And then theres him teleporting upstairs to charge an attack you have to cancel from him, and he also spawns a ton of golems for the party to deal with. BLM in that fight also gets mad respect for dealing with those meteors that fall. That final sequence from what our BLM's told us was a real pain in the ***.
#58 Jul 14 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Wow you guys must be pro players or something.

Last three days: Me and a tank had to carry a fight with the healer and mage in Haitali, where they died to the lightning drake.

Our LS Went to help a player go do Ifirt, we wiped two times after killing the Fetters smoothly.

And I personally got my face melted having the Dragon boss from Longstop turning to Dragon Breath + Venom Breath singeing me out for attacks. Then, mid fight, got revived, the IMMEDIATELY Venom Spit again.

So the 'Too easy' complaint isn't resonating with me. IF you already know what you're doing with every fight, it can be very easy. If not, stuff can go very wrong very quickly.


I wouldn't call myself pro, we we did just kill Ifrit completely naked.... It did help knowing the mechanics, but the gear was basically meaningless and the only reason I died was because of the lag on eruption from my server being JP-based.

I'm not saying there's no challenge, but I can't tell if what we did was based on our skill, or the fight being too easy.


Hm. I'll be testing the difference of receiving damage with or without armor later down the line then. Methinks it has more to do with Ifirit's damage mechanics than the actual fight itself. A level 20 primal is going to be easy if you've already memorized the pattern. (It's a fairly simple pattern.) But it's how the tank manages to survive with no armor that makes me blink a bit. Methinks healing may need a nerf that or damage received needs a buff.

Edit: A sidenote about resource mechanics, at around level, Conjurer has to make effort to maintain their MP or else they can burn out. (This means taking advantage of their traits.) Additionally, any lengthy fights have the physical damage dealers running out of TP. So exhaustion is a factor here, it's just introduced gradually. The only class that essentially has infinite resources is Thamaturge - and its damage scaling is currently tuned for it.

So long as the tank and players know how to evade or stun incoming attacks appropriately, then it's fine if the Conjurer isn't running out. When s/he starts having to revive members of the party is when his/her MP starts becoming taxed, and taxed quickly. I was only able to be revived in the Longstop fight once, then our WHM couldn't revive me again due to MP constraints.

Hey Ostia, where are your White Ravens? I wanna see them. Seriously if you think it wasn't hard you must make money playing video games. Only ~400 ever received that item. Unless you're one of them you really don't get the right to make judgement calls on that level of difficulty.




Edited, Jul 14th 2013 2:28pm by Hyrist
#59 Jul 14 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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DragonBourne wrote:
I'm perfectly fine with the difficulty. I feel they are on par with where they should be, given the small amount I was allowed to experience thus far. To be honest, I'm not looking forward to the part when the game closes off without having a horde of players dressed in top-tier gear. That's usually where it ends for me. Not because I don't want a challenge, but usually because it consists of grouping up with egotistical elitists, sadly.

Ostia wrote:
Now Hatali is again stupid easy, the second boss you can pull to the ramp and evade his electricity gimmick


Hmmm, must be nice to have a sightseer class in the group, because we wiped, due to not having one.

Quote:
Now Toto Rak is also stupid easy, the third one is not even hard, even if you dont attack the tail when he is ready to use his special ability, the damage he does is sad....


Again, wiped twice trying to figure out where the **** to go when he covers the area in poison. That sightseer class must be exclusive to elite players like yourself, cause I never seem to get grouped with one.


And I'm just curious, did you think it was more or less fun because you wiped? And I'm not saying that in any sort of sarcastic or condescending way... I'd really like to know your opinion with regards to that.

I think losing every once in awhile and having to think a little bit, tends to be more fun than tank and spank. Now that being said, I don't think it would be fun to lose a 90 minute raid session, but individual wipes, for me anyway add interest to the game.

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 3:10pm by ClydesShadow
#60 Jul 14 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Hm. I'll be testing the difference of receiving damage with or without armor later down the line then. Methinks it has more to do with Ifirit's damage mechanics than the actual fight itself. A level 20 primal is going to be easy if you've already memorized the pattern. (It's a fairly simple pattern.) But it's how the tank manages to survive with no armor that makes me blink a bit. Methinks healing may need a nerf that or damage received needs a buff.

Edit: A sidenote about resource mechanics, at around level, Conjurer has to make effort to maintain their MP or else they can burn out. (This means taking advantage of their traits.) Additionally, any lengthy fights have the physical damage dealers running out of TP. So exhaustion is a factor here, it's just introduced gradually. The only class that essentially has infinite resources is Thamaturge - and its damage scaling is currently tuned for it.


I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....
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#61 Jul 14 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Completing content lowman and undergeared has me worried. I know there are people of the opinion that gear shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not you are tall enough to ride, but the threshold has to be present somewhere. If the only requirement to defeating content is that you be a certain level or just having certain abilities, I don't see that playing out too well for the prospect of a challenging endgame...
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#62 Jul 14 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Completing content lowman and undergeared has me worried. I know there are people of the opinion that gear shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether or not you are tall enough to ride, but the threshold has to be present somewhere. If the only requirement to defeating content is that you be a certain level or just having certain abilities, I don't see that playing out too well for the prospect of a challenging endgame...


I believe that beyond the first trial (Ifrit)... maybe even beyond the second, it's not going to fly walking into a battle in your birthday suit.

I do think there is a level of skepticism about the difficulty of this game due to the fact that we're only getting access to the opening areas.

I'm also simultaneously optimistic that once we start to progress into the 30+ zones, things will start to get a bit more challenging.

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 5:19pm by ClydesShadow
#63 Jul 14 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.
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#64 Jul 14 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


Don't CNJs currently have essentially unlimited MP?
#65 Jul 14 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


Don't CNJs currently have essentially unlimited MP?


They might at lower levels, don't know about higher ones. But that's your challenge right there.. as long as your healer simply cannot run out of MP, you can pretty much never die in any encounter that doesn't one-shot people.
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#66 Jul 14 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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IMO conjurer isn't just supposed to heal (at least in the beta test so far)... Stone 2 does pretty OK damage and when playing another class than CNJ I always find it a bit frustrating when some lazy conjurers never bother to DPS inbetween heals...! Of course it gets easy/boring if u don't play ur class... '-'
#67 Jul 14 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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Akumane wrote:
IMO conjurer isn't just supposed to heal (at least in the beta test so far)... Stone 2 does pretty OK damage and when playing another class than CNJ I always find it a bit frustrating when some lazy conjurers never bother to DPS inbetween heals...! Of course it gets easy/boring if u don't play ur class... '-'


Well....if conjurer has unlimited mp while just healing.....then that's what's going to happen. No encounter so far has required extra dps from the healer, and having a healer with infinite mp makes it so you can never die.
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#68 Jul 14 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.
#69 Jul 14 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.


I haven't played Conjurer outside of phase 2, and I didn't do any dungeons in phase 2. I was responding to what Louiscool said.. it's actually in the quote you quoted.

Since I haven't played the class myself in any meaningful sense, I was basing my information (and therefore my response) on the information I was given. I'm sorry if it made you upset, but you actually didn't just get finished explaining how healer MP is limited here. If you did it in another thread, then I haven't read that. If you'd like to respond to Louis with your own data and experience, you should respond to him.
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#70 Jul 14 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.


1) You cannot raise during combat (as far as I can tell)
2) I haven't seen or encountered any hate issues in my runs. To be fair, in all cases, either I or my friend was the tank and we both have extensive experience tanking in XI and XIV.
3) Infinite may be the wrong word. Fights don't last long enough for mp to become an issue. We beat Ifrit, naked, in 7 minutes. I pressed cure every 2 seconds (or whatever the GCD is). The only time was failed was when our random 4th member (fully geared) failed to dodge eruption, or when I failed to dodge it. I even had time to keep Aero on Ifrit, and Stone 2 / Aero the needle when it popped up.

Edited, Jul 14th 2013 11:38pm by Louiscool
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#71 Jul 14 2013 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.


I haven't played Conjurer outside of phase 2, and I didn't do any dungeons in phase 2. I was responding to what Louiscool said.. it's actually in the quote you quoted.

Since I haven't played the class myself in any meaningful sense, I was basing my information (and therefore my response) on the information I was given. I'm sorry if it made you upset, but you actually didn't just get finished explaining how healer MP is limited here. If you did it in another thread, then I haven't read that. If you'd like to respond to Louis with your own data and experience, you should respond to him.


I played CNJ for the great majority of P3. I didn't really have any MP issues until the last boss of Toto Rak. Between cures and medicas and Esunas and a quick aero here and there I was really low on MP by the end of the fight.

During the trash mob fights I could keep the tank up with no problems and still get in plenty of aero and stone 2 casts for sure. The issue I feel is that CNJ (at level 24 anyway) only really has those very few abilities. Level 26 gets a sleep spell though so there's an opportunity for some crowd control responsibility too.

Either way I had so much fun playing it. I'll definitely be starting off the same come P4.



Edited, Jul 14th 2013 8:42pm by LebargeX
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#72 Jul 14 2013 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

1) You cannot raise during combat (as far as I can tell)

There's a level 28 trait allowing you to cast raise during battle.
#73 Jul 14 2013 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.


Who says MMORPG leveling needs to be easy (monotonous)?


I guess it depends on whether or not the developer likes money.
#74 Jul 14 2013 at 11:08 PM Rating: Default
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LebargeX wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
I was the conjurer, cure-bombing a naked pld. MP was infinite....


That's going to skew the difficulty HEAVILY to the easy side. Infinite healer MP trivializes any content that isn't capable of one-shotting a tank.


It's a darn good thing I just spent time explaining that the Healer MP pools isn't infinite now, eh?

Tanks not getting one-shotted is fine, it's picking your DDs off the floor is when your tank needs an immediate cure and your MP just got floored due to trying to raise the DD the first time around is when your healer starts to be taxed.

That, or when you're five minutes down in the fight, well after your DDs are exhausted and your tank's struggeling to keep hate.

Exhaustion mechanics exist in this game. You won't encounter them unless you're messing up, especially in the early encounters.


I haven't played Conjurer outside of phase 2, and I didn't do any dungeons in phase 2. I was responding to what Louiscool said.. it's actually in the quote you quoted.

Since I haven't played the class myself in any meaningful sense, I was basing my information (and therefore my response) on the information I was given. I'm sorry if it made you upset, but you actually didn't just get finished explaining how healer MP is limited here. If you did it in another thread, then I haven't read that. If you'd like to respond to Louis with your own data and experience, you should respond to him.


I played CNJ for the great majority of P3. I didn't really have any MP issues until the last boss of Toto Rak. Between cures and medicas and Esunas and a quick aero here and there I was really low on MP by the end of the fight.

During the trash mob fights I could keep the tank up with no problems and still get in plenty of aero and stone 2 casts for sure. The issue I feel is that CNJ (at level 24 anyway) only really has those very few abilities. Level 26 gets a sleep spell though so there's an opportunity for some crowd control responsibility too.

Either way I had so much fun playing it. I'll definitely be starting off the same come P4.



Edited, Jul 14th 2013 8:42pm by LebargeX


Sleep is a waste of MP currently, there is no reason to sleep a mob, an extra mob has little to no consequential outcome in a trash pull, hopefully on higher levels CC starts playing a major part of gameplay.
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#75 Jul 15 2013 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
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It seems like a lot of broken records around here:

MMO vet: The game is too easy, there needs to be more challenge! All of these dungeons up to level 25 are too easy. Me and my experienced MMO buddies steamrolled through the first 6 dungeons. If you think these are hard then you've never played the first 5 dungeons of ____, ____, and especially ____!

Therefore the game will _____!

----

Is this the basic argument? Because as others have pointed out we're still out of, I'd say, the majority of the game. Secondly, most of us playing now, even in beta, are probably MMO vets; when release happens I'm sure the failure rate will be much higher, especially with those newbies using the duty finder. Thirdly, SE has no incentive to make the content difficult especially in the beginning; these are (as repeated) tutorial dungeons and dungeons that are needed to be completed to access further content. (Not to mention the fact as Karl has pointed out SE has no incentive monetarily to make things any more difficult, especially early on.)

Also there's a handful of anecdotal stories, mine included, that really prove nothing about the difficulty one way or the other. If anything it seems as though the difficulty really has more to do about class balance or enmity tweaks.

My story earlier in the thread was just to show how a fight could turn out and that a well organized team can do things a regular PUG couldn't; against a boss/specific event... (although a 3 man with no tank would have ironically a very tough time with trash mobs as we did.)

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To Parallel:

In FFXI, the most fun and skillful parts for me, were soloing content. I had to create my difficulty in some respects, especially since I never made it to endgame. Groups, at least leveling groups, weren't too difficult. And really both ARR and FFXI seem to be around the same difficulty around the same levels.

----

The Point:

The thing is, ARR holds your hand, or rather guides you through content. And ironically, a reason why people may think earlier dungeons in other games were harder, was because those other games did horrible jobs with introducing to content and your class.

Other games just throw you into the fray and that's not necessarily difficult, but rather seems like bad design.

---

People are looking for things that are unique about FFXIV, I think the handholding and needing to pass group content to progress, is right in front of people's faces but are refusing to acknowledge it. It is a brilliant mix of FFXI and WoW and I haven't seen any other MMO do this; require people to group in a dungeon setting this early on.
#76 Jul 15 2013 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
The Point:

The thing is, ARR holds your hand, or rather guides you through content. And ironically, a reason why people may think earlier dungeons in other games were harder, was because those other games did horrible jobs with introducing to content and your class.

Other games just throw you into the fray and that's not necessarily difficult, but rather seems like bad design.


I'm not sure I'd call it bad design. The times I learned most about MMOs in my time playing them was usually following a few wipes. At some point you stop and ask yourself what is going wrong and is there anything myself or someone in my group can do to fix it. I don't think people necessarily want these dungeons to be on the level of Yogg or LK, but it would promote learning and teamwork if they were at least challenging.

You could say the same thing about bad design if content is too easy. If it's supposed to be a guided tutorial then it's not working if you don't have to do much more than spam the same abilities you could outside playing solo against the local fauna.

Kierk wrote:
It is a brilliant mix of FFXI and WoW and I haven't seen any other MMO do this; require people to group in a dungeon setting this early on.

I don't recall any MMOs that don't have you grouping early on for content, including XI. Everything I can think of that I've played had me grouping with other players for instanced content around level 10 at the latest.
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