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#102 Jul 15 2013 at 9:27 AM Rating: Default
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I know that. Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden are some of my favorite games. People love a challenge.

If a game is too easy, it's boring. No matter how good the rest of the game is.

I've played action games that have great combat systems but if the AI is horrible and I don't feel in danger and I don't have to try, the game is crap.
#103 Jul 15 2013 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I know that. Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden are some of my favorite games. People love a challenge.

If a game is too easy, it's boring. No matter how good the rest of the game is.

I've played action games that have great combat systems but if the AI is horrible and I don't feel in danger and I don't have to try, the game is crap.

That is untrue since the easiest games are the most popular. It is all about having fun that is the key word fun not easy.
#104Killua125, Posted: Jul 15 2013 at 9:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Prove it.
#105 Jul 15 2013 at 9:42 AM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
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Right here, you prove my point. "Failed to Dodge Eruption" This means you went in naked to a level 20 run, then called the fight easy when you preformed the fight perfectly. Once someone messed up, you failed regardless of the gear you wore.


Screenshot


Oh yes, things went perfectly, and I'm a total stranger to these "mechanics" you speak of, Hyrist.

That's a Drg tanking Ifrit, strafing his flamethrowers while the Brd main heals, because I died on hellfire, and the SHIELDLESS pld died after.

Oh do tell me how things went perfectly. We won right here, btw. I'm not saying that our skill and experience didn't make this win possible... but I was also pretty drunk on top of being a TERRIBLE healer soo.. this was the first time I healed in ARR.


I noticed you're a stranger to them, not even knowing that conjurer gets a field revive. So far you've shown images of nothing but level 20 Ifrit. Where's Brayfox's Longstop? You keep citing the fourth instance you encounter as some sort of godsend of difficulty.

You got extremely lucky to have managed that win. Thank your DRG and BRD for knowing how to improvise around your drunken ****.

Out of curiosity, I'd like to know what you used your Limit Break on.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:43am by Hyrist
#106 Jul 15 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:

I noticed you're a stranger to them, not even knowing that conjurer gets a field revive. So far you've shown images of nothing but level 20 Ifrit. [/quot]

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:43am by Hyrist


I don't main Whm, I main War. Again, I didn't heal further than this and only a handful of times, so you can stop with the condescension.

Quote:
You keep citing the fourth instance you encounter as some sort of godsend of difficulty.


Where did I cite any of this? I completed the storyline for the beta, and then I went back and completed it naked, and you are saying this is acceptable.

Quote:
You got extremely lucky to have managed that win. Thank your DRG and BRD for knowing how to improvise around your drunken ****.


Ha, luck has nothing to do with it. It was easy enough to complete without using a shield, or any gear at all. The PLD should have been one-shot, but instead he was dmg'd for less than 1 cure healed. He was kept at full hp the entire time, until I died to the JP lag eruptions.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, I'd like to know what you used your Limit Break on.


Level 1 was used by the Drg after I died, it was about 95% full to level 2 when he used it out of desperation.
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#107 Jul 15 2013 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Right here, you prove my point. "Failed to Dodge Eruption" This means you went in naked to a level 20 run, then called the fight easy when you preformed the fight perfectly. Once someone messed up, you failed regardless of the gear you wore.


Screenshot


Oh yes, things went perfectly, and I'm a total stranger to these "mechanics" you speak of, Hyrist.

That's a Drg tanking Ifrit, strafing his flamethrowers while the Brd main heals, because I died on hellfire, and the SHIELDLESS pld died after.

Oh do tell me how things went perfectly. We won right here, btw. I'm not saying that our skill and experience didn't make this win possible... but I was also pretty drunk on top of being a TERRIBLE healer soo.. this was the first time I healed in ARR.


I noticed you're a stranger to them, not even knowing that conjurer gets a field revive. So far you've shown images of nothing but level 20 Ifrit. Where's Brayfox's Longstop? You keep citing the fourth instance you encounter as some sort of godsend of difficulty.

You got extremely lucky to have managed that win. Thank your DRG and BRD for knowing how to improvise around your drunken ****.

Out of curiosity, I'd like to know what you used your Limit Break on.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:43am by Hyrist



Please!! Me and BartelX beat this fight with 2 out of 4 people dead :) This must be one LUCKY GAME!!!
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#108 Jul 15 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:

Please!! Me and BartelX beat this fight with 2 out of 4 people dead :) This must be one LUCKY GAME!!!


To be fair, I was wearing Dream Boots, which.. as we all know, have +1 Dreamyness on them. Maybe Ifrit was just smitten..
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#109 Jul 15 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I definitely think the leveling dungeons don't need to get any easier than they are now, I'd also point out that they ARE leveling dungeons. They aren't meant to be difficult.


Who says MMORPG leveling needs to be easy (monotonous)?


I guess it depends on whether or not the developer likes money.


Are you saying easier games make more money? Because you're so wrong.


I'm saying that if they can't retain new players long enough to get hooked on the game, they'll make a lot less money. If people quit the game out of frustration or because it seems like an impenetrable wall, they make less money.


You act like the next step beyond "brain dead, made-for-babies, easy" is "impenetrable wall".



No.

What is "braid dead, made-for-babies" to an experienced MMO player can sometimes seem like "impenetrable wall" to new players.

Difficulty is not an absolute concept, it's relative to your own ability. Some people are so used to moving out of the fire while keeping a DPS rotation, watching aggro, and seeing when they can toss a top off heal on some one else in the raid that anything less than that barely keeps them awake, while other people are flummoxed by simply needing to get out of a big red circle on the ground while still pressing "1." The hope is that the latter group can move closer in skill to the former group by the time they all reach max level.

Also, keep in mind that this game is meant to be playable with a controller, and a mouse and keyboard gives much faster reaction time and more precise control. So now, content has to be tuned with that in mind too. Bottom line is the game is going to be very easy if you're in the veteran MMO/PC player demo, and probably won't be challenging for quite a while, and that's by design. That's the burden of being so awesome.
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#110 Jul 15 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Please!! Me and BartelX beat this fight with 2 out of 4 people dead :) This must be one LUCKY GAME!!!


It's true, we did. Once you learn the basic mechanic of avoid the stuff on the ground and realize the pattern goes outside > inside > outside, it's not overly difficult. Of course, that's kind of a bad example Ostia, since we both have 15+ years of mmo experience. New players will have a much tougher time understanding what's going on. I will say that's it's rather crazy that a healer can die, and Ifrit can basically still be kited indefinitely without him killing the rest of the group as long as they pay attention to where they step.
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#111Killua125, Posted: Jul 15 2013 at 11:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You think too highly of yourself, I think. It's easy for you and it's just as easy for everyone else. My friend doesn't play MMORPGs (and he's not even a huge gamer in general), he's playing the PS3 version, and he's found all the content to be a breeze.
#112 Jul 15 2013 at 12:21 PM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
Hyrist wrote:

I noticed you're a stranger to them, not even knowing that conjurer gets a field revive. So far you've shown images of nothing but level 20 Ifrit. [/quot]

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:43am by Hyrist


I don't main Whm, I main War. Again, I didn't heal further than this and only a handful of times, so you can stop with the condescension.

Quote:
You keep citing the fourth instance you encounter as some sort of godsend of difficulty.


Where did I cite any of this? I completed the storyline for the beta, and then I went back and completed it naked, and you are saying this is acceptable.

Quote:
You got extremely lucky to have managed that win. Thank your DRG and BRD for knowing how to improvise around your drunken ****.


Ha, luck has nothing to do with it. It was easy enough to complete without using a shield, or any gear at all. The PLD should have been one-shot, but instead he was dmg'd for less than 1 cure healed. He was kept at full hp the entire time, until I died to the JP lag eruptions.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, I'd like to know what you used your Limit Break on.


Level 1 was used by the Drg after I died, it was about 95% full to level 2 when he used it out of desperation.

You could do lots of FFXI content naked too. You just don't do as much damage or get hurt as bad with proper gear. The issue here isn't that the fights are designed overly easy. It's that they are designing it as intro to medium entry content.

Resource management is what made FFXI hard not the gear for most fights. Monsters hit hard and had those AoEs that cast too fast to interrupt that wrecked havoc. They usually came one after the other. But again this release isn't the end of where endgame content can go. For this class system of ARR to work, resource management of jobs must be tuned to where you must rely on parties to get the job done.

Yoshi said that they can go balls hard when new endgame first gets introduced then scaled back in difficulty after the next big ride is ready. Some of the design team of XI is developing the combat here too. It's not like they don't know how to make fights more challenging. This is a design choice for now.
#113 Jul 15 2013 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Dungeons that are needed to unlock game features such as retainers and such should be easy. I'd say even the ones that are required for story progression should be doable for new to mmo folks. The dungeons that are truly optional should be where the real challenges are.
#114 Jul 15 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Resource management is what made FFXI hard not the gear for most fights.


Exactly, and that is sorely missing from XIV, currently.
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#115 Jul 15 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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It's also a smart think for tha tank to pull Ifrit to one side of the field so that the rest of the players can position themselves to evade the inside/outside Radiant Plumes.

If the tank sits there and tanks the thing in the center... well, you're going to have a much more difficult time.

The point of this all is pattern recognition, and the fact that, guess what, you guys recognized the pattern. Good for you. That doesn't make the fight easy. Easy would be being able to completely ignore the Plumes and Eruptions all together.

What you are arguing is that the fight is simple, and if you realize you can dodge the majority of the powerful damage, which follows an easily discernable pattern, that you can survive the fight on minimal gear.

That's what we call a skill check. You passed it.

EASY fights are gear-checks only. If you have the right gear for your level you win, period. You don't need to worry about the fight Gimicks. Is the skill check simple on a level 20 fight? Absolutely. You guys are rating this as if it's Ifrit Hard or Extreme and it's annoying to say the least.

Truely hard fights? Both Gear and Skill Checks. Raven Nevermore, the fight that Ostia mindlessly insulted to the point of inciting rage on my part, has both in abundance, to the degree that one slip up will likely wipe the run - and that there is literally no way to 'One Run' the fight, as it requires you to farm meterials for the fight to even survive the first move if you're not a tank.

Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Resource management is what made FFXI hard not the gear for most fights.


Exactly, and that is sorely missing from XIV, currently.


Do Brayfox Longstop and try to revive someone twice, you'll see the exhaustion. But, hey, you want to hear a **** of a lot more people complain, make refresh mandatory in this game like it was in FFXI, and we'll have Bard Fantasy all over again.

So long as your players do their job in evading damage, there should be no need to be a major exhaustion issue in the game. Again, we're already seeing large traction in the complaints about TP exhaustion in fights.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 4:39pm by Hyrist
#116 Jul 15 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
It's also a smart think for tha tank to pull Ifrit to one side of the field so that the rest of the players can position themselves to evade the inside/outside Radiant Plumes.

If the tank sits there and tanks the thing in the center... well, you're going to have a much more difficult time.

The point of this all is pattern recognition, and the fact that, guess what, you guys recognized the pattern. Good for you. That doesn't make the fight easy. Easy would be being able to completely ignore the Plumes and Eruptions all together.

What you are arguing is that the fight is simple, and if you realize you can dodge the majority of the powerful damage, which follows an easily discernable pattern, that you can survive the fight on minimal gear.

That's what we call a skill check. You passed it.


................................................i hate you. Or at least... I hate that your logical explanation is making you agree with you.

Maybe it's because the three naked dudes all have a combined 500+ Ifrit wins under our belt from 1.0... but I didn't even realize that we automatically positioned Ifrit in the old spot, I set up where the "Whm Safe Zone" used to be, Archer was also legacy (wearing AF) and set up at the other safe spot instead of bunching up with me like I've seen people do on non-legacy servers. Smiley: bah
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#117 Jul 15 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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The tank in the group inside my LS that we wiped twice to, was new, and tanked Ifrit away from everyone else, but still near the center. We lost after killing the fetter due to a lot of us not being able to run out of the center circle in time for Radiant Plume to hit us. (Second cycle, stuns were down.)

The Legacy Positioning for Ifrit is still optimal. Due to how close to the edges of both Radiant Plume attacks there are. I'd hate to think how a group of complete newbies figure out where to tank Ifrit in the long run.
#118 Jul 15 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Please!! Me and BartelX beat this fight with 2 out of 4 people dead :) This must be one LUCKY GAME!!!


It's true, we did. Once you learn the basic mechanic of avoid the stuff on the ground and realize the pattern goes outside > inside > outside, it's not overly difficult. Of course, that's kind of a bad example Ostia, since we both have 15+ years of mmo experience. New players will have a much tougher time understanding what's going on. I will say that's it's rather crazy that a healer can die, and Ifrit can basically still be kited indefinitely without him killing the rest of the group as long as they pay attention to where they step.


Yes we do have over 15+ years of experience, but there is no excuse for one tank and one DD to beat ifrit from 50% hp to 0% HP! If it where 10-15% then ok, that might require skill, but 50% of HP ? That's just bad encounter design, and also there is this assumption that the % of new players that will be playing this game is HUGE! Most people in 2013 have experienced a MMO, and most of the people that will pick up this game initially will be MMO players, there is no indication that the number of new players will outnumber the number of MMO players, so this notion that the game has to be stupid easy because of "New Players" is unfounded.

Also nobody is asking for hardmodes, but a steep increase in difficulty would help the games longevity.
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#119 Jul 15 2013 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Yes we do have over 15+ years of experience, but there is no excuse for one tank and one DD to beat ifrit from 50% hp to 0% HP! If it where 10-15% then ok, that might require skill, but 50% of HP ?


I'm not saying I disagree with you, which is why I said I thought it was crazy that this was possible. However, I do agree with Hyrist about the fight being more of a skill check than a DPS race or a gear check. Granted, it doesn't require an insane amount of skill once you figure out the pattern, but please just try and think of it from a brand new players perspective. If they've never seen a mechanic like that, they are going to have a harder time figuring out what to do, how to tank Ifrit, figure out why they have to kill the spike immediately, how to run in and out to avoid the eruptions, etc.

To us, and most people who have some experience in mmo's it's just common sense, but to any new player to an mmo, or even players who don't have a ton of mmo experience (hint, those coming solely from ffxi where running out of fire was never a mechanic) it will be a bit of a transition. The fight is required to progress in the story and even unlock something as simple as a chocobo, so the fact that it isn't overly difficult isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I think it's a good thing in keeping newer players AND teaching them the very basic fundamentals of boss encounters and mechanics. A lot of the veterans here are taking that for granted because we already know the mechanic and have seen it before.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 6:00pm by BartelX
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#120 Jul 15 2013 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I guess we'll see Ostia, because I staunchly disagree with what you said, and unfortunately for your viewpoint, my stance seems to fall in line with that of the developers.

I'm of the belief that your view are highly skewed by your experiences and your inability, apparently, to view perspectives beyond your own. You are ahead of the skill curve, new players are, in my experience with them, not so. You also take to the negative that you and BartelX managed to Duo Ifrit from half way. But you fail to recognize how a moment like that might become memorable for someone who isn't jaded by their experiences. You flatly ignore the tension and victory that sort of situation would provide from someone else, where often a comeback victory can often be viewed as the best kind.

And there also becomes the inspiration factor for those less skilled than you. Say you and BartelX did that with two Duty Finder randoms, and you carried the fight. One of those people was having an extremely hard time getting through those fights, and suddenly, they witnessed two skilled MMO players Duo it. Provided they don't take it as a slight, they're going to be inspired to do better, to learn more and to get on your level. It is very possible to have mentored someone in that moment.

But you say those moment's shouldn't be possible.

Now, if this was level 40, and we were facing down Garuda, and this was still possible, then the line would be crossed for me and I'd be agreeing with you guys. Mainly because you're only 10 levels from cap at that point and should have gained a great deal of experience in the multitude of Dungeons and Guildhests you've should have done up until that point. However, this is level 20 we're talking here, and a level of forgiveness in the mechanics should still be given.

Again, Brayfox Longstop starts getting nasty with you, in my experience. I got revived, and the boss stopped, and targeted me immediately before I could even run out of my revive animation. And you couldn't straight tank it because not only would the tank occasionally be forced to sit in a vat of poison, but the Boss would too, and it healed itself if you let it stay there.

So while Ifrit had a pattern easy to recognize, this dragon's pattern was a little more erratic. And because I met a Dragon Breath + Venom Pool to the face in chain, my White Mage had to revive me, then found out she couldn't a second time because it would bottom out her cures and the tank was getting beaten on hard.

So no, I don't agree with a steep climb in difficulty. I'm rather ok with the scaling as it is now. Perhaps they can increase it slightly once they figure out how to balance out the TP and MP resources a bit more. But for now, having experienced the entirety of the available dungeons and the majority of the Guildhests, I can see the growing difficulty.

Which brings me to my next question: What about the other runs. We talked about Ifrit a whole **** of a lot here, and people got as far as talking about Haltali and stopped. No observation on how the manor changed, nor Longstop. Did you guys not get that far?
#121 Jul 15 2013 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
I know that. Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden are some of my favorite games. People love a challenge.

If a game is too easy, it's boring. No matter how good the rest of the game is.

I've played action games that have great combat systems but if the AI is horrible and I don't feel in danger and I don't have to try, the game is crap.


I bought both Demons Souls and Dark Souls, and I quit playing because they were too difficult. I couldn't beat the Flamelurker without glitch killing him. To me that is not fun. The game was cool for a while, but it's just too stressful. Dark Souls was just on another level of stressful, having ******** drop in to your world all the time to backstab you to death. Again, not fun, just stressful. I play a game to alleviate stress, not build it up.

The highest selling Final Fantasy title of all time happens to be FFVII, the easiest game in the entire series.
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#122 Jul 15 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Doing that does nothing to help those people though. Opinion incoming, but if they're going to ramp up difficulty it should happen at a steady curve rather than all at the end. Otherwise you get there with no clue on what to do.


I agree. Though we haven't seen a big chunk of the game. I'm assuming that's what's going to happen. Unless level 20 is the midpoint of the game.

Quote:
I'm not sure I understand... the 20-man what?


Raid. I can show up to a raid without knowing anything. It can be my first foray into group content. It won't be in FFXIV.

Quote:
I get that the dungeons are necessary for quests in XIV, but people almost always do dungeons in other games for gear. Dungeon related quests and gear to kill mobs faster makes questing/grinding faster and you can queue while you solo. It's encouraged in every game I've played. I'm not really sure what forced grouping has to do with dungeon difficulty anyway though...


My point exactly, encouraged not required. Difficulty is tied into the requirement part of the game. That's why the game isn't more difficult early on. Yoshi has made the choice to appeal to the most players. And most players do not play MMOs.

----

As I read more of his posts it looks like Hyrist and I agree on most everything.

This is the way it's going to be for the reasons we've laid out. Not to sound pompous or too objective but the way dungeons are, are the way they will be. Other than theory or what should be, especially for early dungeons, there is no point in discussing their current difficulty.

Now, again, most of us haven't seen the majority of the game. I would assume difficulty would ramp up and be very difficult at endgame. I'd think it look more like a log curve than anything.
#123 Jul 15 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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The highest selling Final Fantasy title of all time happens to be FFVII, the easiest game in the entire series.


To be completely fair here.. Final Fantasy (as a series) is known for its story, not its difficulty.
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#124 Jul 15 2013 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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The highest selling Final Fantasy title of all time happens to be FFVII, the easiest game in the entire series.


To be completely fair here.. Final Fantasy (as a series) is known for its story, not its difficulty.

And their original mechanics and jobs.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 6:17pm by sandpark
#125 Jul 15 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
The highest selling Final Fantasy title of all time happens to be FFVII, the easiest game in the entire series.


To be completely fair here.. Final Fantasy (as a series) is known for its story, not its difficulty.

And their original mechanics and jobs.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 6:17pm by sandpark


Eh, not so much origonal mechanics. See, they began same as anyone else - turn based. ATB did not come out until later and they essentially have stuck with variations of the ATB since. That's not really original after the sixth or seventh time.

Final Fantasy is mostly known for its tropes and ability to tell a good story. 'Origonal Mechanics' has been well muted for many a year now.
#126 Jul 15 2013 at 5:33 PM Rating: Default
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Spoonless wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm not really sure what forced grouping has to do with dungeon difficulty anyway though...
If dungeons are not optional, they have to be clearable by the majority of players. This then has to take into consideration those who are new to MMO and group play in general. So you end up with dungeons that are fairly easy for the veteran player.

The problem I see resulting from that design philosophy is that the difficulty curve eventually takes a sharp upturn for the newer players, assuming that eventually dungeons are tuned to challenge vets. My whole point with this is that it makes more sense to challenge new players now to prepare them for harder content as they progress.

Going to pull on experience from XI here, but I remember many groups where players were simply dismissed from the group because they weren't carrying their weight. We're talking about a standard 6 man grind and nothing that took any great amount of coordination or even attention. Back to the previous point, it was much more common for groups to tolerate poor play from people who showed up to the dunes as WAR/WHM(for those of you who never played XI, it's a poor support job choice). People were much more likely to actually try to explain to the person the ins and outs of choosing a sub job, pull timing, being aware of your group and environment, ect.

Basically what I'm saying is that in my opinion, it would make more sense to have the initial dungeons at least be more of a challenge to new players so that they are forced into the good habit of situational awareness when it comes to encounters rather than the bad habit of thinking that anything can be low-manned in subligar.

Hyrist wrote:
CoP was nerfed 3 time and had all of 30% of the player base completed it before the cap was removed. You want to say the difficulty wasn't a factor in that, go ahead and speculate - but that's not the type of statistic you want to see on an expansion after several years.

Where did these numbers come from exactly? Just curious...

killua125 wrote:
You act like the next step beyond "brain dead, made-for-babies, easy" is "impenetrable wall".

There is some middle ground that provides a challenge, makes people think, but is by no means frustrating or impossible.

By the way, any instance that you can complete without gear is totally unacceptable in a gear-based MMORPG, no matter how 'skilled' the players are.


ZAM you amaze me sometimes. Sub-D'd for making a completely rational point?

I would also like to know why when people say "This is too easy, give us a challenge" the immediate response is "Not every fight is endgame hardmode content".
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#127 Jul 15 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
CoP was nerfed 3 time and had all of 30% of the player base completed it before the cap was removed. You want to say the difficulty wasn't a factor in that, go ahead and speculate - but that's not the type of statistic you want to see on an expansion after several years.

Where did these numbers come from exactly? Just curious...

Probably the Vana'diel census.

2008 expansion mission progress data: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/08/11mission.html

2009 expansion mission progress data: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/09/9.html

2011 expansion mission progress data: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/6.html
(Notice how this survey specifically mentions the effect of removing the level cap on missions)

CoP was released in 2004.
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#128 Jul 15 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Where did these numbers come from exactly? Just curious...


Memory of one of the Vanadiel Censuses. I was too lazy to look up which one. Looks like the 8th.

Look at the rise in participation when Level Sync and Level Cap removal were introduced. From under 30% to over 50% in two years time because of those introductions.

Take it with a grain of salt. FFXI was a punishing game to begin with so many settled with not getting the content done and just hanging out with friends. And there were plenty of other time sinks. Still, 30% of people completing what was at the time five plus year old content still seems low. They likely lost people on that.
#129 Jul 15 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Been reading this thread. Going to have to side with Hyrist.

The opposite arguement is saying that we should prepare players now, at Lv 20 for endgame content because of the worry that further content will not be challenging enough. (Complete speculation)

Lv20 isn't even half way up to level cap. We haven't even seen future dungeons that more towards the later 30s and 40s I expect endgame concepts to be introduced.

All I'm saying is, I think the current gated content is fine when you consider it is holding essential features. There is still 30 more levels after that to see the ramp up to end game difficulty, whatever that may be.
#130Ostia, Posted: Jul 15 2013 at 7:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The difference between level 20 content and level 30 content is none, they are as easy, level 30 guildhest is as easy as level 15 guildhest, level 30 dungeons are as easy as level 15-23 dungeons, level 30 is 5 levels past the midpoint of the game.
#131 Jul 15 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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The data listed in the census isn't really a fair and accurate measure. The numbers are not a running total of completion, but a yearly comparison of how many people accepted which missions in comparison to the previous year. The only real notable here is that in the 10th census, half of all players who started CoP had finished. That number goes up substantially when you consider the number of players who started CoP and quit XI, the number of mules and alt characters with no intention of completing the missions and the number of RMT with no intention of completing the missions(which I imagine to be pretty significant).

The Vana'diel Collection was released in the summer of '05 and it bundled FFXI RotZ and CoP. Given that they were the same price, it's probably fair to say that almost everyone who purchased FFXI from that point on had the expansion. The only requirement to be considered in that census was registering the game and entering Delkfutt's Tower for the cutscene to begin the first mission. Way too many characters who started the missions with no intention of finishing them to read too much into the census number being a result of difficulty.




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#132 Jul 15 2013 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:

The difference between level 20 content and level 30 content is none,

Bullsh*t. Calling it loud and clear. Once again, Ostia, your blatant disregard for detail has you crossing the line between negative opinion and spreading misinformation.

Each individual guildhest differs for one another, so that's too long of a list for me to disseminate here.

We have no reference for Trials as Ifrit is the only impression, and that is level 20. So your argument there is baseless.

As far as dungeons, nothing previous to Manor can account for an Instant Kill moves during boss fights. Manor has Lady's Candle (or some such similar name) which will kill you and anyone in range if you let it detonate.

Same situation between manor and Copperbell. If you've got a full party of strong DPS, you can out-speed kill the Boss before the adds become a problem. Conversely, the Adds give Lady Amaranthine a high-potency Stoneskin effect which they will refresh if you break through it early with a limit break. Copperbell is also the first dungeon to introduce Monster that have to be weakened by using objectives.


Hatali, just one step above Copperbell, you are introduced to field damage via Wyrm that can easily wipe your group if you don't get the eff out of the water. You also differ in add objectives between 'defend target point' to 'eliminate enemies before they reach destination'. The latter comes with an additional attack effect and additional adds as consequence.

Step beyond that, you get landmines, terrain effects (the slime on the ground.) As well as your first Dungeon objective for attacking an individual body part on a monster.

Back to Manor, the Void Lamps, additional multi-target switch objective on top of instant kill boss spawn, on top of peel objective. This time the adds can coordinate with the boss to freeze a larger area with Terror as well. Also - patrolling mobs in the dungeon itself. ALSO - secondary hate targeting.

Moving on to Longstop, first introduction of NPCs to defend, additionally, first interrupted mini-boss fight. Additionally, first introduction to boss healing mechanics. It also has a different formula for targeting than simply 'secondary hate' as it seems to target people at different stages on the hate list at a currently undetermined pattern.

So yeah, level 20 dungeon, defiantly different than level 30 dungeon. The difference is in the details. What are you doing, what are you supposed to be learning? And yes, the dungeons, particularly the bosses more than the dungeons themselves, get more difficult as you go on.

But it is gradual. If you're already someone who has endgame raiding experience, all this stuff is water under the bridge to you. If you're new to MMOs or your MMO experience is limited, then these elements are significant learning points to you.



Ifrit level 20 is the equivalent of Three Kingdoms BCNM in FFXI in terms of progression. Back when that BCNM fight was released it had a cap of 25 in which certain jobs could SOLO the fight given proper preparation, let alone be duoed. My first memories of the BCNM involved me and two others going in with me at only level 23 on my Red Mage. Our 'Tank' died briefly after the seeker did and I was forced to chainspell in order for us to beat the fight. However, we did beat it. By your own standards, we shouldn't have. OBVIOUSLY Vanilla FFXI was too easy. Smiley: rolleyes


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:47pm by Hyrist
#133 Jul 16 2013 at 12:48 AM Rating: Default
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Hyrist wrote:
Ostia wrote:

The difference between level 20 content and level 30 content is none,

Bullsh*t. Calling it loud and clear. Once again, Ostia, your blatant disregard for detail has you crossing the line between negative opinion and spreading misinformation.

Each individual guildhest differs for one another, so that's too long of a list for me to disseminate here.

We have no reference for Trials as Ifrit is the only impression, and that is level 20. So your argument there is baseless.

As far as dungeons, nothing previous to Manor can account for an Instant Kill moves during boss fights. Manor has Lady's Candle (or some such similar name) which will kill you and anyone in range if you let it detonate.

Same situation between manor and Copperbell. If you've got a full party of strong DPS, you can out-speed kill the Boss before the adds become a problem. Conversely, the Adds give Lady Amaranthine a high-potency Stoneskin effect which they will refresh if you break through it early with a limit break. Copperbell is also the first dungeon to introduce Monster that have to be weakened by using objectives.


Hatali, just one step above Copperbell, you are introduced to field damage via Wyrm that can easily wipe your group if you don't get the eff out of the water. You also differ in add objectives between 'defend target point' to 'eliminate enemies before they reach destination'. The latter comes with an additional attack effect and additional adds as consequence.

Step beyond that, you get landmines, terrain effects (the slime on the ground.) As well as your first Dungeon objective for attacking an individual body part on a monster.

Back to Manor, the Void Lamps, additional multi-target switch objective on top of instant kill boss spawn, on top of peel objective. This time the adds can coordinate with the boss to freeze a larger area with Terror as well. Also - patrolling mobs in the dungeon itself. ALSO - secondary hate targeting.

Moving on to Longstop, first introduction of NPCs to defend, additionally, first interrupted mini-boss fight. Additionally, first introduction to boss healing mechanics. It also has a different formula for targeting than simply 'secondary hate' as it seems to target people at different stages on the hate list at a currently undetermined pattern.

So yeah, level 20 dungeon, defiantly different than level 30 dungeon. The difference is in the details. What are you doing, what are you supposed to be learning? And yes, the dungeons, particularly the bosses more than the dungeons themselves, get more difficult as you go on.

But it is gradual. If you're already someone who has endgame raiding experience, all this stuff is water under the bridge to you. If you're new to MMOs or your MMO experience is limited, then these elements are significant learning points to you.



Ifrit level 20 is the equivalent of Three Kingdoms BCNM in FFXI in terms of progression. Back when that BCNM fight was released it had a cap of 25 in which certain jobs could SOLO the fight given proper preparation, let alone be duoed. My first memories of the BCNM involved me and two others going in with me at only level 23 on my Red Mage. Our 'Tank' died briefly after the seeker did and I was forced to chainspell in order for us to beat the fight. However, we did beat it. By your own standards, we shouldn't have. OBVIOUSLY Vanilla FFXI was too easy. Smiley: rolleyes


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:47pm by Hyrist


You do know you are quoting me out of context right ? The person i was answering and me where arguing about content difficulty, and i said that the difference between level 20 & 30 content where none, speaking of the difficulty... But i am sure you knew this... You just gotta try and get one in... since i owned you pretty bad last time we argued Mr. Pugilist are scalable damage dealers Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

Oh that was a good one Hyrist! Oh and also copper bell mines slime boss has a one shot attack in bombs... so your argument about mannor being the first dungeon that has a one shot kill ability is wrong... Lmao! So not only do you miss quote me on purpose.. But you also get your argument wrong ? DAMM! Smiley: lol Also... Hatali is not the first dungeon or instance where you experience "GTFO OF THE FIRE" that would be IFRIT :) Jesus! Can you get something right if you are gonna argue ?
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#134 Jul 16 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Once again, misinformation, you need to cite your sources and drop the insults or you need to learn not to post before you do your research.

Puglist's primary damage scaling is based on Greased Lightning stacks and maintaining them. Each stack of Greased lightning adds + 7% Dmg & 5% Auto attack speed. Three stacks of Greesed lightning is +21% Damage and 15% Auto attack speed, up constantly. Stacking with other damage buffs. Thus, Puglist Damage is scaling incrementally, compared to Dragoon, which is primarily buff-and-burst style.

It's a similar concept to Astral Fire without the additional resource consumption. Your goal as Puglist is to get to 3 Stacks of Greased Lighting as fast as possible and continue it. If you can't, you're behind in damage.


Also, you're the one misquoting here.

First thing I said -
Quote:
As far as dungeons
Ifrit is out of the question right there - (not to mention I said Ifrit is categorized as a Trial in Duty Finder and has no other comparison point.) let alone the fact that the Hatali Wyrm is 'mode' based, Ifirit's attacks are singular rotations. Ifrit's attacks are also interrupt-able, Wyrm's Damage is passive.

The mining bomb, I'll admit, I overlooked. onsidering all the other mechanics introduced there, because I forgot the mining bomb also can instakill, that's minor as ****. Again, look at the layering in Manor. Subtargeting, Patrols, Multiple Switches, Protective Adds (That don't inflict immune on their charge.) They're adding together, adding to the difficulty.

You completely missed the point of my post. Each of those things are matters you have to keep track of in the dungeons, adding to the difficulty. The introduction of new elements add into slow growth of difficulty. The difference between level 20 and 30 dungeons is easily illustrated by the continual introductions of differing and layering combat mechanics.

Then again, you're not the one I should be talking this over with, to be honest. You've already determined that everything is too easy to you. I'm just putting this conversation into the proper perspective. You want to say there's no difference, let that be your own words. They're not the impressions of myself nor my Free Company, nor should your opinion be considered fact.


Edited, Jul 16th 2013 8:57am by Hyrist
#135 Jul 16 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
You do know you are quoting me out of context right ?

Smiley: lolSmiley: laughSmiley: lol
Pot, meet kettle.

Hyrist wrote:
Once again, misinformation, you need to cite your sources and drop the insults or you need to learn not to post before you do your research.

Puglist's primary damage scaling is based on Greased Lightning stacks and maintaining them. Each stack of Greased lightning adds + 7% Dmg & 5% Auto attack speed. Three stacks of Greesed lightning is +21% Damage and 15% Auto attack speed, up constantly. Stacking with other damage buffs. Thus, Puglist Damage is scaling incrementally, compared to Dragoon, which is primarily buff-and-burst style.

It's a similar concept to Astral Fire without the additional resource consumption. Your goal as Puglist is to get to 3 Stacks of Greased Lighting as fast as possible and continue it. If you can't, you're behind in damage.


Don't bother Hyrist, I had the exact same argument with him, and he's just too stuck in his ways to understand the concept. He thinks that DPS classes can only be burst or sustained damage, even though there are TONS of classes in games that do not fit either of those molds.

Edited, Jul 16th 2013 9:32am by BartelX
#136 Jul 16 2013 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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I just want to make sure that the convesation is balanced. A 'pro' player is going to generalize mechanics he or she feels is beneath them, and overlook every essential part from the perspective of a new player.

Also, combat mechanics are layered in, and, honestly - there's been parses done to prove the point of how essential Greased Lightning is. (Before GL, Puglist's DPS is below that of Archer, after 3 stacks, it's higher than Dragoons.) Now this comes with the possible reservation that the base potency of the moves are too low, but I'd want to parse myself with one of my FC's Monks first.

I've over a decade under my belt when it comes to MMOs just on my lonesome over multiple MMOs (Sticking primarily between Aion and XI.) Differnce being I was a casual player with a hardcore mindset. I love the number crunching, but in the end I feel as if play-style is the individual player's choice. So long as they try and are not offending their team, they can play how they want.

But when it comes to details, I'm meticulous. Mainly because I love stacking DoTs. Perhaps I'm sadistic, watching an enemy bleed out, awell. It's fun to be able to lay down damage that pays out in the long run.
#137 Jul 16 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
The highest selling Final Fantasy title of all time happens to be FFVII, the easiest game in the entire series.


To be completely fair here.. Final Fantasy (as a series) is known for its story, not its difficulty.

And their original mechanics and jobs.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 6:17pm by sandpark


Eh, not so much origonal mechanics. See, they began same as anyone else - turn based. ATB did not come out until later and they essentially have stuck with variations of the ATB since. That's not really original after the sixth or seventh time.

Final Fantasy is mostly known for its tropes and ability to tell a good story. 'Origonal Mechanics' has been well muted for many a year now.

I know they began they same. Original to me means original. Doesn't matter if they used different iterations of it forever. Unoriginal would be playing FF with Elder Scrolls combat gameplay. I'm not a huge Elder scrolls head like some people but they are basing the combat on the mmo one exactly like their offline titles.

I think ES combat is boring but it is built exactly like their offline titles. How well the combat retention plays in an mmo space remains to be seen. ARR sets the controller UI up just like Dark souls but adds 16 actions per bar. And their pc hotbar like WoW.



I have nothing against borrowing UI. If you are trying to bring tab targeting to a more real time feel. Imo there is no better game to draw inspiration from than the souls series because it does it best. Just showing that the ATB system regardless of how often used or how old is original.
#138 Jul 16 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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You mean as far as the use of ATB? Eh, hard to judge considering how niche of a game it is. I do like the Stamina system, but it because of how outright nasty the enemies can be, it's almost forcing you to value stamina above all other stats.

But I get your meaning. It's just a personal impression, and one I've seen that mirrors with others. Final Fantasy hasn't really felt like something that really emphasis original systems above storytelling. In the ranking I'd say that queues as a higher priority trait. But that's just a personal opinion.
#139 Jul 17 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
I have nothing against borrowing UI. If you are trying to bring tab targeting to a more real time feel. Imo there is no better game to draw inspiration from than the souls series because it does it best. Just showing that the ATB system regardless of how often used or how old is original.

WoW will always be the standard for that reason. Not because they took it upon themselves to design and implement the best looking, feeling, most responsive, ect. MMO UI ever created, but because they made it fully customizable and said "Do it your **** self". It's perfect for those of us who have an opinion on how to make it better (and those of us who know we can Smiley: tongue)

The vid you linked looks a lot like TERA except with the ability to lock target. Regardless, it looks a lot more fun and engaging than what XIV is currently using. Mayhaps we'll get some info on combat changes coming before launch, but I'm not sure how it will work out to delay much longer.
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#140 Jul 17 2013 at 6:31 AM Rating: Good
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Just thought I'd tack this on here really quick, since it came directly from Yoshi-P in his duty finder thesis.

Quote:
Therefore, players will be able to solo their way through level 1 to 15 as a battle class. From level 15 to 35, the players will "learn the basics of party play." After level 35, we expect some players to really start talking about the mechanics and strategies for boss battles.


So really, the first 35 levels are learning the basics and fundamentals of encounters. So to all those complaining about how easy dungeons still seem to be at higher levels, hopefully this will answer your concerns.

Edited, Jul 17th 2013 8:31am by BartelX
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#141 Jul 17 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Good, 40 is about where I draw the line for newbie tolerance. If you're doing a level 40 run and you don't know the most basics, it's time to put the breaks on advancement and revisit some dungeons to iron out your game. It's not to say that individual is a terrible person or is just plain 'bad' - everyone has their weak points. But it's nice that level sync allows you to revisit places that might put emphasis on a part of a higher level dungeon/trial you feel weak on.
#142 Jul 17 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
I have nothing against borrowing UI. If you are trying to bring tab targeting to a more real time feel. Imo there is no better game to draw inspiration from than the souls series because it does it best. Just showing that the ATB system regardless of how often used or how old is original.

WoW will always be the standard for that reason. Not because they took it upon themselves to design and implement the best looking, feeling, most responsive, ect. MMO UI ever created, but because they made it fully customizable and said "Do it your **** self". It's perfect for those of us who have an opinion on how to make it better (and those of us who know we can Smiley: tongue)

The vid you linked looks a lot like TERA except with the ability to lock target. Regardless, it looks a lot more fun and engaging than what XIV is currently using. Mayhaps we'll get some info on combat changes coming before launch, but I'm not sure how it will work out to delay much longer.

Yeah I'm looking forward to how combat changes up to launch.

Now that I look how the resource bars are setup and the feel of the game. TERA does sort of seem like the Souls series. If you don't mind an rpg without being linnear, not much quest story, but some of the best combat and enemy design around for a single player rpg. You owe it to yourself to try Demon Souls(Central hub with linked zones) or Dark Souls(Open World). Players can invade your world and try to help or kill you. I have about 350 hours playing Dark Souls lol. It's not as hard as people say if you time your moves and don't get lazy.
#143 Jul 17 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
I'll just put this here because I don't want to create a new thread:

I joined a Copperbell party as a lancer. It was me, an archer and a conjurer.

We had 20 mins left and needed to beat the slime and the last gigas.

We went for it. No tank, just us three.

Since I've ran Copperbell as a GLD I knew what to do. I told them and the archer kited the slimes, and I took care of the bomb and spriggans.

We passed that pretty easily.

We died on some trash mobs, but made it to the gigas.

I told them I'd tank the gigas and for the archer to take care of the adds. Everything was going great when I saw there were too many adds and they were going after the CON. The gigas was down to litterally a sliver of health, the archer was barely alive...

I died! Then saw the screen go black...to a cutscene of the boss dying!

It was pretty epic. More importantly it was fun.

----

I think the level of difficulty is fine up to 20. Considering you have to pass these to progress, they can't be overly difficult. The game is teaching you things in order to prepare for endgame; things like communication, hate management, etc. I'd think the endgame, which none of us have seen, will be the (not surprisingly) hardest content.

Should there be a heroic mode for some of these dungeons....yeah I think so. But really I think the early dungeons are fine
.



Great post and I agree totally....
The game does fell like its holding your hand early on and I believe it is too teach.. Not everyone has played a mmo before or a FF game,,



Edited, Jul 17th 2013 7:57pm by Nashred
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#144 Jul 17 2013 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Kierk wrote:
I'll just put this here because I don't want to create a new thread:

I joined a Copperbell party as a lancer. It was me, an archer and a conjurer.

We had 20 mins left and needed to beat the slime and the last gigas.

We went for it. No tank, just us three.

Since I've ran Copperbell as a GLD I knew what to do. I told them and the archer kited the slimes, and I took care of the bomb and spriggans.

We passed that pretty easily.

We died on some trash mobs, but made it to the gigas.

I told them I'd tank the gigas and for the archer to take care of the adds. Everything was going great when I saw there were too many adds and they were going after the CON. The gigas was down to litterally a sliver of health, the archer was barely alive...

I died! Then saw the screen go black...to a cutscene of the boss dying!

It was pretty epic. More importantly it was fun.

----

I think the level of difficulty is fine up to 20. Considering you have to pass these to progress, they can't be overly difficult. The game is teaching you things in order to prepare for endgame; things like communication, hate management, etc. I'd think the endgame, which none of us have seen, will be the (not surprisingly) hardest content.

Should there be a heroic mode for some of these dungeons....yeah I think so. But really I think the early dungeons are fine
.



Great post and I agree totally....
The game does fell like its holding your hand early on and I believe it is too teach.. Not everyone has played a mmo before or a FF game,,



Edited, Jul 17th 2013 7:57pm by Nashred


Not everyone played an MMO when I first signed into EverQuest for the first time.

So embarrassing too. I was to a point where I was starting to group with my Shadow Knight and I hadn't purchased my pull ability yet (I know! The horror!!!!). Suffice to say after that first real encounter with other players I tucked my tail back home and purchased Pull. Couple days later I learned what it meant to be a tank. Peer pressure is the best teacher. There's something to be said for being thrown into the fire. Too Darwinian?

Don't get me wrong. I am enjoying the game and my CE reservation isn't going anywhere but inside my ps3/ps4 console. But there's something to be said for a quick smack upside the noggin from your peers. The genre can handle it. We're all still here complaining on one front or another, after all. And kids will be complaining on one front or another years from now.
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#145 Jul 17 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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ShindaUsagi wrote:


Not everyone played an MMO when I first signed into EverQuest for the first time.

So embarrassing too. I was to a point where I was starting to group with my Shadow Knight and I hadn't purchased my pull ability yet (I know! The horror!!!!). Suffice to say after that first real encounter with other players I tucked my tail back home and purchased Pull. Couple days later I learned what it meant to be a tank. Peer pressure is the best teacher. There's something to be said for being thrown into the fire. Too Darwinian?

Don't get me wrong. I am enjoying the game and my CE reservation isn't going anywhere but inside my ps3/ps4 console. But there's something to be said for a quick smack upside the noggin from your peers. The genre can handle it. We're all still here complaining on one front or another, after all. And kids will be complaining on one front or another years from now.


I said this in another post but (like you've posted) imagine playing an MMO for the first time. It can be very daunting. Especially knowing/realizing what you do, can impact the entire group.

And imagine your first parties. Being scolded, or being told or taught is common.

I remember playing THF in FFXI and doing it completely wrong. I got a scolding from a JP player who was annoyed that I was putting hate on the wrong player all of the time. It was a lot of ; ;. lol. I'm sure I contributed to the stereotype of a bad NA player.

However this gradual learning curve in FFXIV, which starts to get difficult around level 40 (which I suspected), allows for conversations like this to happen, without too much consequence and hopefully not too much alienation.
#147 Jul 17 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Playing EQ as my first MMO taught me what I needed to do to play above average. If you didn't play your character well in that game you got nowhere. As a monk that had to pull in NToV back in the day it was probably the best learning ever. I kind of always wish people had to play games like FFXI and EQ before they moved onto other games. I think those people in the long run would be happy they did. I know I would be happy they did heh.


Edited, Jul 17th 2013 9:23pm by Mopdaddy
#148 Jul 17 2013 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:


Not everyone played an MMO when I first signed into EverQuest for the first time.

So embarrassing too. I was to a point where I was starting to group with my Shadow Knight and I hadn't purchased my pull ability yet (I know! The horror!!!!). Suffice to say after that first real encounter with other players I tucked my tail back home and purchased Pull. Couple days later I learned what it meant to be a tank. Peer pressure is the best teacher. There's something to be said for being thrown into the fire. Too Darwinian?

Don't get me wrong. I am enjoying the game and my CE reservation isn't going anywhere but inside my ps3/ps4 console. But there's something to be said for a quick smack upside the noggin from your peers. The genre can handle it. We're all still here complaining on one front or another, after all. And kids will be complaining on one front or another years from now.


I said this in another post but (like you've posted) imagine playing an MMO for the first time. It can be very daunting. Especially knowing/realizing what you do, can impact the entire group.

And imagine your first parties. Being scolded, or being told or taught is common.

I remember playing THF in FFXI and doing it completely wrong. I got a scolding from a JP player who was annoyed that I was putting hate on the wrong player all of the time. It was a lot of ; ;. lol. I'm sure I contributed to the stereotype of a bad NA player.

However this gradual learning curve in FFXIV, which starts to get difficult around level 40 (which I suspected), allows for conversations like this to happen, without too much consequence and hopefully not too much alienation.


I remember playing RDM as my first job on FFXI, without any care in the world. I was in a level 50 party and I got lectured on how to use debuffs and refresh/haste cycles, then I got told my gear was **** (which is was), and it kept going on and on.

Then I went to the Killing Ifrit Forums when it was still thriving to complain about the guy. Was a pretty bad idea, especially since he had his own account threw all my baggage in the open.

While I cleaned up my act, and laugh about it now, I doubt anyone would've developed a tolerance like mine. I'm totally fine with the game holding your hand at the beginning for newcomers. It's better for the newbies, and better for us experienced players when it comes to endgame content.
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