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#52 Jul 15 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Compared to the actual game systems, mechanics, client/server interaction, etc, "end game" IS unimportant for launch. They're not going to push back a hard release date if it's not all finished, in fact, "end game" is going to he added as the game goes along. The idea that the game is going to be complete with all content available at release is just not true. So I'm not sure what part of my logic is all that mind blowing.


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 1:46am by KarlHungis


End Game IS Uninportant on Release ? Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh


Read the bolded part... it was in comparison to other aspects. I think endgame is very important, but I tend to agree that it's not as important as the other issues mentioned. And for all non-legacy players, having all endgame content at launch isn't crucial, since they don't walk into the game at 50.

From a legacy standpoint, having some endgame in is important, but as a poster above me said, if legacies were willing to pay for the game when it was incomplete, I think they'll be ok with not having every ounce of endgame content in at launch. As long as there is something to wet their whistle (which it has already been stated there will be), that should be good enough for them.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:16am by BartelX


End game content is the most important feature in an MMO in 2013, next to the combat system which is 90% of what you will be involved doing in an MMO, nobody cares about chocobo racing or housing, not as much as people care about End game content, nobody will stop playing if this game does not has chocobo racing, housing, but people will drop this game like a rock or any other game, if End game Content is subpar, why do you think Swotor Failed ? It did everything else right... But not end game... I really do not understand this notion that some posters have, that since this is a Final Fantasy titled game, it's immune to certain faults other games have failed for, yet this game FAILED already... Legacy players are waiting for this game to deliver, they have stuck around for this moment, if the game does not delivers do you really think 100% of them are going to stick around 6 more months or over a year for the game to deliver ? This is it for this game, is either go big or go home, they already played their "We are sorry we will fix this game" card....

There where around 50-75K legacy players, let's say for arguments sake there where 100K, this game has had over 1 million beta keys handed out, now we do know that that number is inflated, but let's say there are 1 million individual players, playing right now, do you honestly think that out of a million players, a million players, will be as forgiving as legacy players ?


So, by your logic 5% - 10% of the beta applicants are legacy players. And making that small percentage upset will ruin the game. But not making the other 90% - 95% happy won't? Not everybody is awesome like you and races to end game Ostia. There needs to be plenty of other stuff to do.

Since nobody on this forum has even played 2.0 endgame content, I would just say wait and see.
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#53 Jul 15 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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Its a fallacy to think that because legacy players paid for 1.0, they are going to accept incomplete ARR. Legacy players paid for 1.0 because they believed in the vision of Yoshi and SE's promises that the game is going to be fixed. They paid because they were told their progress will carry over and you will get perks in ARR.

If you think that all legacy players are going to be ok with an incomplete game once again and will happily pay for more promises and expectations, you are nuts. The time to deliver is now. The legacy servers will be filled with people who have already done Ifrit/Garuda prime and are looking for the next bit of content. Telling them that its not going to be there for a few months really is unacceptable.
#54 Jul 15 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Compared to the actual game systems, mechanics, client/server interaction, etc, "end game" IS unimportant for launch. They're not going to push back a hard release date if it's not all finished, in fact, "end game" is going to he added as the game goes along. The idea that the game is going to be complete with all content available at release is just not true. So I'm not sure what part of my logic is all that mind blowing.


End game content is the most important feature in an MMO in 2013, next to the combat system which is 90% of what you will be involved doing in an MMO, nobody cares about chocobo racing or housing, not as much as people care about End game content, nobody will stop playing if this game does not has chocobo racing, housing, but people will drop this game like a rock or any other game, if End game Content is subpar, why do you think Swotor Failed ? It did everything else right... But not end game... I really do not understand this notion that some posters have, that since this is a Final Fantasy titled game, it's immune to certain faults other games have failed for, yet this game FAILED already... Legacy players are waiting for this game to deliver, they have stuck around for this moment, if the game does not delivers do you really think 100% of them are going to stick around 6 more months or over a year for the game to deliver ? This is it for this game, is either go big or go home, they already played their "We are sorry we will fix this game" card....

There where around 50-75K legacy players, let's say for arguments sake there where 100K, this game has had over 1 million beta keys handed out, now we do know that that number is inflated, but let's say there are 1 million individual players, playing right now, do you honestly think that out of a million players, a million players, will be as forgiving as legacy players ?


First, please reread the bolded part again. How does chocobo racing or housing have anything to do with mechanics, client/server interactions, or game systems? I'm saying that the base systems are more important than the finished systems. If something in the base is broken, it really doesn't matter how polished you make your endgame... it has to work first.

Second, I LOVE how you mention swtor failing because of endgame content lacking. I made that exact same argument about a month ago (along with ridiculous lag, a plethora of bugs, and unbalanced pvp) as the main reasons swtor failed and you laughed at me, claiming it was the combat system that was by FAR the biggest issue. Also, please note that on launch swtor had an ok amount of endgame content (two decent raids, a bunch of flashpoints), the problem is that they have only released new content once every 6 months or so, which is why it is such a detrimental aspect to the game.

Third, I never said 6 months or a year for endgame implementation. If that is the case, you are absolutely correct and many of them will leave (just like in swtor). If they have some at launch to tide them over until they release more a month or two later, that's what I'm talking about (and actually mentioned in my post).

Fourth, like I said, new players aren't starting at 50. They have to level up to get there. Certainly some will do it within a week or two, but most will take a bit longer, try out multiple classes, try out crafting, and by the time they get there, they will have the content that's there at launch, and most likely be pretty close to releasing more (according to the timeline Yoshi-P has already set forth). So, I don't really see it as an issue.
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#55 Jul 15 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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SWTOR has had updates far far far more frequently than just once every 6 months.
#56 Jul 15 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?
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#57 Jul 15 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I'm curious. What kind of "end game" content did FFXI have at launch? Was it basically just Serktet/Simurgh/Roc until Zilart was released?

Irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. But if you don't want to discuss things, just say you don't want to discuss things. Or just ignore my post altogether. Responding with a dismissive tone is completely unnecessary.
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#58 Jul 15 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Default
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Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?
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#59 Jul 15 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
SWTOR has had updates far far far more frequently than just once every 6 months.


Sorry, I should have clarified, I was talking endgame content, as in new operations. We're approaching the 2 year mark of swtor and there are what, 5 operations now? It started at 2, so I'd say the once every 6 months is pretty accurate. And no, I do not consider adding a nightmare mode as new content. Don't get me wrong... I actually really loved swtor for quite a while. I liked the combat, I loved the story, I thought the progression 1-50 was nice, and I liked most of the classes. The things I mentioned (and specifically lack of endgame diversity) are what made me and most of my guild eventually quit. Once you beat Hardmode Kephess a month after it's launched, what is there to do for the next 5 months until a new raid is introduced? It was basically, put the op on farm mode, pvp, or level alts.
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#60 Jul 15 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I'm curious. What kind of "end game" content did FFXI have at launch? Was it basically just Serktet/Simurgh/Roc until Zilart was released?


Irrelevant. Besides the fact that FFXI released without any max level players, it also took a LONG time for players to reach max level. Plenty of development time there.

It would also be helpful if, in general, people (not just you) would please stop using FFXI as a point of reference for development of a new MMO. FFXI was released in 2002. This is 2013, over a decade later. There are tens of millions more MMO players now than there were then. The standards are different, the market is different, the players are different. FFXI is not a good reference point for the release of a new game (or the re-release in this case).

Quote:
Not to be snarky, but Legacy players are getting a big discount, and they have already proven that they'll pay money for an incomplete game on the promise of future improvement. It would be pretty strange for Legacy players to quit at game's release because the content they want is a month or two from being released.


I agree it'd be strange for them to quit at release after what they've already done. I also think that SE has a vested interest in keeping these players around, which will not happen if they're bored.


To be fair, FFXI had a ton of time sinks designed to slow player progression and levelling took a lot longer due to the difficulty and paltry exp mobs gave. The game didnt explain sh*t to you. A player would have to discover literally everything on their own, which takes more time. **** even the run speed was a time sink when you think about the size of the zones and the lack of transportation options before level 20.

FFXI had a lot of terrible game design elements that were often developed to frustrate the player.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 1:09pm by reptiletim
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#61 Jul 15 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually don't think 5 endgame raids in 2 years is slow at all. SWTOR's biggest endgame problem was, at least to start with, the raids were way too easy and short. Within a couple weeks of entering EV or KP, you could clear them start to finish in less than 2 hours each. And the itemization wasn't great. That's the biggest thing I hope ARR gets right.

I think its unrealistic to develop well thought out raids at a rate quicker than 5 every 2 years. But, those raid need to be worth it. You need bosses that take some time to figure out mechanics and patterns and just plain old experience to beat. You need to have interesting trash mobs between bosses. Interesting in the sense, they can drop cool stuff like crafting ingredients and such. I'm sure the super dedicated and hardcore guilds will still beat them fairly quickly, but for guilds that raid maybe once a week? It should take them a couple months to clear the raid and another couple months to master it and gear up from it. I am encouraged when I hear Yoshida says endgame encounters are designed to outright kill players and that places like Bahamut's Labyrinth take a long time to traverse. I hope that is true.
#62 Jul 15 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
I actually don't think 5 endgame raids in 2 years is slow at all. SWTOR's biggest endgame problem was, at least to start with, the raids were way too easy and short. Within a couple weeks of entering EV or KP, you could clear them start to finish in less than 2 hours each. And the itemization wasn't great. That's the biggest thing I hope ARR gets right.

I think its unrealistic to develop well thought out raids at a rate quicker than 5 every 2 years. But, those raid need to be worth it. You need bosses that take some time to figure out mechanics and patterns and just plain old experience to beat. You need to have interesting trash mobs between bosses. Interesting in the sense, they can drop cool stuff like crafting ingredients and such. I'm sure the super dedicated and hardcore guilds will still beat them fairly quickly, but for guilds that raid maybe once a week? It should take them a couple months to clear the raid and another couple months to master it and gear up from it. I am encouraged when I hear Yoshida says endgame encounters are designed to outright kill players and that places like Bahamut's Labyrinth take a long time to traverse. I hope that is true.


I see what you're saying and agree with you in terms of the length of ops. Being able to full clear the op in 2 hours really kills the depth of endgame. I still think that raids should come more often than one per 6 months. Rift had them coming out one every couple months. WoW was similar, or would be adding entire new wings onto raids. Lotro introduces new instances 4-5 times a year. Two a year seems like a slow schedule to me, but I suppose if they are pretty elaborate and require saving progress in order to beat over the course of several sessions, I'd be fine with that.
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#63 Jul 15 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Mmoderator wrote:
Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?



We're talking about the same guy who was publicly scolded in it's own thread by a mod here... that should help draw some conclusions.
#64 Jul 15 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I'm curious. What kind of "end game" content did FFXI have at launch? Was it basically just Serktet/Simurgh/Roc until Zilart was released?

Irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. But if you don't want to discuss things, just say you don't want to discuss things. Or just ignore my post altogether. Responding with a dismissive tone is completely unnecessary.


I mean, you COULD have read the rest of my reply to you... because everything after that first word was actually the important part. But if you don't want to discuss things, just say you don't want to discuss things.
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#65 Jul 15 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
I actually don't think 5 endgame raids in 2 years is slow at all. SWTOR's biggest endgame problem was, at least to start with, the raids were way too easy and short. Within a couple weeks of entering EV or KP, you could clear them start to finish in less than 2 hours each. And the itemization wasn't great. That's the biggest thing I hope ARR gets right.

I think its unrealistic to develop well thought out raids at a rate quicker than 5 every 2 years. But, those raid need to be worth it. You need bosses that take some time to figure out mechanics and patterns and just plain old experience to beat. You need to have interesting trash mobs between bosses. Interesting in the sense, they can drop cool stuff like crafting ingredients and such. I'm sure the super dedicated and hardcore guilds will still beat them fairly quickly, but for guilds that raid maybe once a week? It should take them a couple months to clear the raid and another couple months to master it and gear up from it. I am encouraged when I hear Yoshida says endgame encounters are designed to outright kill players and that places like Bahamut's Labyrinth take a long time to traverse. I hope that is true.


I see what you're saying and agree with you in terms of the length of ops. Being able to full clear the op in 2 hours really kills the depth of endgame. I still think that raids should come more often than one per 6 months. Rift had them coming out one every couple months. WoW was similar, or would be adding entire new wings onto raids. Lotro introduces new instances 4-5 times a year. Two a year seems like a slow schedule to me, but I suppose if they are pretty elaborate and require saving progress in order to beat over the course of several sessions, I'd be fine with that.


I'm hoping they'll add more than just raids to endgame. More primal fights, high level FATES, level capped dungeons sprinkled in between new raids can keep the interest going. And personally, I'm hoping for some non combat related endgame features too. They have mentioned that you can build towers and stuff for your houses. Would be cool if they were really involved and time consuming crafts. Like build a set of items a day and then have to wait for a cooldown to build again. Plus, hopefully the materia system is robust enough, where it is encouraged to spiritbond many items at lv50. Endgame is very important and expectations for endgame are obviously going to be high when the guy behind the game says Lv1-50 is basically a tutorial, the real game starts at lv50.
#66 Jul 15 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I mean, you COULD have read the rest of my reply to you... because everything after that first word was actually the important part. But if you don't want to discuss things, just say you don't want to discuss things.

I did read it. I just didn't feel like quoting it. And the rest of that post didn't provide any of the information I was looking for, and sounded just as dismissive and condescending.
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#67 Jul 15 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
I'm hoping they'll add more than just raids to endgame. More primal fights, high level FATES, level capped dungeons sprinkled in between new raids can keep the interest going. And personally, I'm hoping for some non combat related endgame features too. They have mentioned that you can build towers and stuff for your houses. Would be cool if they were really involved and time consuming crafts. Like build a set of items a day and then have to wait for a cooldown to build again. Plus, hopefully the materia system is robust enough, where it is encouraged to spiritbond many items at lv50. Endgame is very important and expectations for endgame are obviously going to be high when the guy behind the game says Lv1-50 is basically a tutorial, the real game starts at lv50.


I agree with you. I want some endgame crafting and gathering activities, and more robust things to do at 50 than just raids. I think (hope) we'll get that.
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#68 Jul 15 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Compared to the actual game systems, mechanics, client/server interaction, etc, "end game" IS unimportant for launch. They're not going to push back a hard release date if it's not all finished, in fact, "end game" is going to he added as the game goes along. The idea that the game is going to be complete with all content available at release is just not true. So I'm not sure what part of my logic is all that mind blowing.


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 1:46am by KarlHungis


End Game IS Uninportant on Release ? Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh


Read the bolded part... it was in comparison to other aspects. I think endgame is very important, but I tend to agree that it's not as important as the other issues mentioned. And for all non-legacy players, having all endgame content at launch isn't crucial, since they don't walk into the game at 50.

From a legacy standpoint, having some endgame in is important, but as a poster above me said, if legacies were willing to pay for the game when it was incomplete, I think they'll be ok with not having every ounce of endgame content in at launch. As long as there is something to wet their whistle (which it has already been stated there will be), that should be good enough for them.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:16am by BartelX


End game content is the most important feature in an MMO in 2013, next to the combat system which is 90% of what you will be involved doing in an MMO, nobody cares about chocobo racing or housing, not as much as people care about End game content, nobody will stop playing if this game does not has chocobo racing, housing, but people will drop this game like a rock or any other game, if End game Content is subpar, why do you think Swotor Failed ? It did everything else right... But not end game... I really do not understand this notion that some posters have, that since this is a Final Fantasy titled game, it's immune to certain faults other games have failed for, yet this game FAILED already... Legacy players are waiting for this game to deliver, they have stuck around for this moment, if the game does not delivers do you really think 100% of them are going to stick around 6 more months or over a year for the game to deliver ? This is it for this game, is either go big or go home, they already played their "We are sorry we will fix this game" card....

There where around 50-75K legacy players, let's say for arguments sake there where 100K, this game has had over 1 million beta keys handed out, now we do know that that number is inflated, but let's say there are 1 million individual players, playing right now, do you honestly think that out of a million players, a million players, will be as forgiving as legacy players ?

Endgame is very important. But there is plenty for people to do starting from scratch. How many dungeons did they say?15? How many jobs and classes? This isn't an alt game where you can focus on one class and ignore the rest, they have to level multiple class/jobs. That is going to take awhile to do. What is the best methods for making gil here? Crafting? Gathering? Guidleves?

ARR has two years of beta because of legacy in addition to the standard beta as most games have at launch. SE isn't dumb enough to make the same mistake as TOR or the second mistake twice. They know they want you legacy players to stick around. There will be endgame content like a mutha coming in patches and expansion during the first 6 months. I guarantee you.
#69 Jul 15 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't put it past any company to make stupid mistakes once or even more then once.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 2:57pm by Mopdaddy
#70 Jul 15 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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Suijin wrote:
Quote:

Okay, so after reading up the summary-so-far on 2ch, from what I gather it's:

August 1st - Character Creation Benchmark
August 8th - Producer Letter Live, in which they'll announce when the start date for Phase 4 is.

Hence, it will seem that Phase 4 will start sometime after that.


Credits to Stanislaw again for translating.

I personally think it will probably start around the 15th.. but who knows Smiley: smile


Could you provide the link for this translation? I'm certainly not willing to stumble around 2ch from work!

But really, thanks for providing the most relevant info I've seen thus far on the timing of Phase 4! Rate up for sure.
#71 Jul 15 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
Compared to the actual game systems, mechanics, client/server interaction, etc, "end game" IS unimportant for launch. They're not going to push back a hard release date if it's not all finished, in fact, "end game" is going to he added as the game goes along. The idea that the game is going to be complete with all content available at release is just not true. So I'm not sure what part of my logic is all that mind blowing.


End game content is the most important feature in an MMO in 2013, next to the combat system which is 90% of what you will be involved doing in an MMO, nobody cares about chocobo racing or housing, not as much as people care about End game content, nobody will stop playing if this game does not has chocobo racing, housing, but people will drop this game like a rock or any other game, if End game Content is subpar, why do you think Swotor Failed ? It did everything else right... But not end game... I really do not understand this notion that some posters have, that since this is a Final Fantasy titled game, it's immune to certain faults other games have failed for, yet this game FAILED already... Legacy players are waiting for this game to deliver, they have stuck around for this moment, if the game does not delivers do you really think 100% of them are going to stick around 6 more months or over a year for the game to deliver ? This is it for this game, is either go big or go home, they already played their "We are sorry we will fix this game" card....

There where around 50-75K legacy players, let's say for arguments sake there where 100K, this game has had over 1 million beta keys handed out, now we do know that that number is inflated, but let's say there are 1 million individual players, playing right now, do you honestly think that out of a million players, a million players, will be as forgiving as legacy players ?


First, please reread the bolded part again. How does chocobo racing or housing have anything to do with mechanics, client/server interactions, or game systems? I'm saying that the base systems are more important than the finished systems. If something in the base is broken, it really doesn't matter how polished you make your endgame... it has to work first.

Second, I LOVE how you mention swtor failing because of endgame content lacking. I made that exact same argument about a month ago (along with ridiculous lag, a plethora of bugs, and unbalanced pvp) as the main reasons swtor failed and you laughed at me, claiming it was the combat system that was by FAR the biggest issue. Also, please note that on launch swtor had an ok amount of endgame content (two decent raids, a bunch of flashpoints), the problem is that they have only released new content once every 6 months or so, which is why it is such a detrimental aspect to the game.

Third, I never said 6 months or a year for endgame implementation. If that is the case, you are absolutely correct and many of them will leave (just like in swtor). If they have some at launch to tide them over until they release more a month or two later, that's what I'm talking about (and actually mentioned in my post).

Fourth, like I said, new players aren't starting at 50. They have to level up to get there. Certainly some will do it within a week or two, but most will take a bit longer, try out multiple classes, try out crafting, and by the time they get there, they will have the content that's there at launch, and most likely be pretty close to releasing more (according to the timeline Yoshi-P has already set forth). So, I don't really see it as an issue.


Housing and chocobo racing are game systems, just like Auction house is a game system etc etc.... Do i really need to spell this out to you ? We still have latency/client & sever issues, there is still lag when it comes to AOE abilities etc etc, we have spent 3 phases testing the same 20 levels of content, yet the remaining 40 levels of content, will literally go untested, unless they extend phase 4 or delay the game, that is more than 50% of content that will go untested by players, and players are the best testers, for they will think outside of the box on how to beat encounters, in ways that SE could never dream off.

As for Swotor, yes swotor failed because of lack of end game, the class unbalance issue came to front when there was the lack of content, when you have only 2 raids and dungeons to run at cap level, what else is there to do ? PVP, in that is when class unbalance cost them dearly, for now not only is your end game content lacking, but the only other content avaiable is basically unplayable... Seriously you should try playing some MMOS sometimes.

Right now leveling up is way to easy, there will be people hitting 50 within the first 24 hours, let alone a week, once they get there they will start spamming primal fights, collect gear and tackle the 2 raids, one which is incomplete, and the other will not have bahamut avaiable on release. So techincally both raids will be incomplete.... Shiva, Ramuh will not be at release, so that is 3 primals, 2 incomplete raids at release..... Totally a non issue.
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#72 Jul 15 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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KarlHungis wrote:
The fact that it may be important to you doesn't mean it's an important feature over all, it means it's an important feature to you. Take a step back, take the emotional reaction out of it, and use your brain. No one said you can't care about it, but what I said, which is accurate, is that it's a minor feature at this point.


I assure you I am quite calm right now. You could sleep soundly while adrift on my emotional seas.

KarlHungis wrote:
Read the comments here and elsewhere. Most people really like the game even though we have no idea if the PvP will be any good at all. Even though it hasn't had one second of testing or even internal gameplay footage demonstrated so far. If PvP were considered a core feature of the game, it would have been in the game by now. That's not to say it won't eventually be awesome, but come on, if you can't admit what's completely obvious then you have a problem.


It's a valid point. Many people could enjoy FFXIV just fine without PvP. Maybe even a vast majority.

But consider this:

KarlHungis wrote:
So because maybe 5-10% of the player base will absolutely not play it for a month or two if they aren't able to get it working perfectly right away, it makes sense to push back the entire release so the other 90-95% of the player base can't play either? You don't see the slight flaw in that reasoning?


There's no flaw in this reasoning, and I'll explain why.

I would say 10% is cutting it a little low for PvP participation, but let's go with that number for now because it works in many similar features of the game. In fact, FFXIV is a collection of features that might only appeal to 10% of the population or so when you get right down to it.

Sure, everyone might dabble in a little crafting now and then, but how many people are going to play it hardcore enough to multi-meld materia on all manner of gear? Probably not even 10% are going to take it all the way, and even then, how many are going to pursue this from the beginning? Yet, if crafting weren't working, we'd allow the game an extra week or so of development if that's all it took, right? There are people with crafts at 50 already, and everyone relies on it.

Most people find Gathering rather mundane; a virtual simulation of repetitive field work. Maybe only 10% truly like this option and will pursue it to 50 with enthusiasm. Yet, we would not deny Gatherers a functioning system. We recognize materials gathering is the backbone of the economy, collecting ingredients not found through regular monster fighting, and keeping Crafters crafting. There are people with gathering at 50 already, so we'd give them an extra week.

Not everyone likes hardcore endgame. In a casual game like this, it seems anathema, and maybe only 10% will actually pursue it full force (if there's a million players, maybe even less than 10%). But we have a lot of former FFXI players and people from other hardcore MMO backgrounds, so we obviously have to keep them entertained even though the vast majority will be starting at level 1 and hardly pursuing endgame. But, since there are characters at 50 already, we'd give them an extra week.

Maybe not everyone likes quests, or storylines, or dungeons, or Guildleves, or grinding, but we'd wait a week for any of these because we recognize there are differing playstyles and while I might not like one thing, plenty of other people do.

So, what about PvP? Any modern MMO has PvP to some degree, in a mostly friendly PvE game. To skip this is half-assed, marks will be taken away by reviewers for not having it, and some players won't even bother picking up FFXIV in first place. With it so close to completion, why not spend an extra week on it if that's all it took? While other "10% features" require a level 50 mastery to be fully realized, PvP is available at a wide range of levels, and will probably be enjoyed by most new players far sooner than they'd level up to 50 in any class.

But if this doesn't do it for you, let me put it this way:

Crafters will benefit greatly since people will want different builds for PvP that differ from PvE, and Gatherers will benefit because Crafters a lot more supplies than if they were just gearing PvE builds. Hardcore endgame PvE players who don't care for PvP still benefit because those who enjoy playing PvP, and don't quit their subscription because it's there, will be funding the development team with actual subscription money while they play, which can only benefit endgame development far more than if they left to play something else. It may only be "10%" who like this, but it benefits the the playstyles of everyone who plays FFXIV. I'd say it's worth a week of extra development time.
#73 Jul 15 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Default
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Mmoderator wrote:
Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?


Really nobody says negative things besides me ? Huh... Funny! You must live in a Bubble Smiley: lol

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/48641-Let-s-draw-SEs-attention-to-this-problem-lack-of-responsiveness.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/56005-Requiring-dungeons-is-a-%2Areally%2A-bad-idea.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/81249-Feedback-Early-dungeons-are-barely-challenging

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/forums/341-Battle-System - Just look at all the complaints on the battle system alone Smiley: lol

Most MMO players care very little for chocobo racing and housing, and do care more for EG content. MMO Rpgs either succeed or fail because of content, people seemed to forget that yes 1.0 failed because of a huge number of issues, but lack of end game content was one of them also :)
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#74 Jul 15 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Mmoderator wrote:
Ostia,

Now I know there was 1mil keys handed out and I'm darn sure there probably were not that many online. However I do know that I only hear good things from people I have been playing in beta with. I've not heard one negative comment unless its from you... I know myself that a game can't continue on for years without a good endgame aspect but wow man... You do know there are some others who could actually care less about EG at all and are only in it for the smaller things such as housing and choco stuff... So my question to you really is why do you constantly bash/put others wants for this game down in the dirt? Or are you only caring about Ostia?


Really nobody says negative things besides me ? Huh... Funny! You must live in a Bubble Smiley: lol

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/48641-Let-s-draw-SEs-attention-to-this-problem-lack-of-responsiveness.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/56005-Requiring-dungeons-is-a-%2Areally%2A-bad-idea.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/81249-Feedback-Early-dungeons-are-barely-challenging

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/forums/341-Battle-System - Just look at all the complaints on the battle system alone Smiley: lol

Most MMO players care very little for chocobo racing and housing, and do care more for EG content. MMO Rpgs either succeed or fail because of content, people seemed to forget that yes 1.0 failed because of a huge number of issues, but lack of end game content was one of them also :)


Saying "lack of endgame content" is potentially misleading because it implies there wasn't a lack of other content. In other words, it'd be more appropriate on something like The Old Republic. FFXIV 1.0 suffered from lack of content on *everything* except tradeskills. Tradeskills was simply bizarre content, but having to figure out recipes kept people distracted for a bit. But running to Bluefog and Broken Water for leve turn-ins at level 10? SERIOUSLY? And let's not get started on having to find recipes like Clear Glass Lens with absolutely nothing to go on (except SCIENCE) until someone submitted it to yg.

#75 Jul 15 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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6,898 posts
Ostia wrote:
Housing and chocobo racing are game systems, just like Auction house is a game system etc etc.... Do i really need to spell this out to you ? We still have latency/client & sever issues, there is still lag when it comes to AOE abilities etc etc, we have spent 3 phases testing the same 20 levels of content, yet the remaining 40 levels of content, will literally go untested, unless they extend phase 4 or delay the game, that is more than 50% of content that will go untested by players, and players are the best testers, for they will think outside of the box on how to beat encounters, in ways that SE could never dream off.


I never even mentioned housing or chocobo racing, especially considering chocobo racing isn't even a thought being implemented yet. Also, I'm pretty sure game systems was to imply the foundations of the game at it's core, at least that's what I meant it as. And yeah, there still are some minor latency/client issues, which is why it's good that they are still testing more of the basic stuff. Please don't get condescending though, especially when you can't even use simple math to figure out that 20+40= 60, and the cap is 50. Not to mention dungeons, FATEs, leves, and behests went up into the 30's, so no, all the content didn't stop at 20, just the main storyline and quests did.

Other than that, I actually agree with you that I wish they had time to test the higher content, even if they had made it a legacy-only type situation (would have been a nice perk for those with legacy status). I agree that players make the best beta testers and that I do wish there was more time to get some of that content tested.

Ostia wrote:
As for Swotor, yes swotor failed because of lack of end game, the class unbalance issue came to front when there was the lack of content, when you have only 2 raids and dungeons to run at cap level, what else is there to do ? PVP, in that is when class unbalance cost them dearly, for now not only is your end game content lacking, but the only other content avaiable is basically unplayable... Seriously you should try playing some MMOS sometimes.


As you already know, I have plenty of mmo experience. I was just calling you on completely changing your opinion on swtor failing, because you tried to mock me for saying it was related to endgame while claiming it was the combat that caused it, which, if you've played swtor you'll realize is rather silly since the combat is quite fun and like a jazzed up version of WoW combat. Now if you had mentioned the combat LAG, and how abilities sometimes don't even activate yet still waste your GCD, I'd have agreed with you, as that is one of the more annoying bugs (which I've mentioned as being one of the reasons swtor is failing).

Ostia wrote:
Right now leveling up is way to easy, there will be people hitting 50 within the first 24 hours, let alone a week, once they get there they will start spamming primal fights, collect gear and tackle the 2 raids, one which is incomplete, and the other will not have bahamut avaiable on release. So techincally both raids will be incomplete.... Shiva, Ramuh will not be at release, so that is 3 primals, 2 incomplete raids at release..... Totally a non issue.


This is not the majority of players. This is the very small minority of hardcore players, who, regardless of how fast you implement endgame content, will burn through it. And fyi, it will be 3 primals, 2 raids, 4 beastmen camps with endgame FATEs, AF quests, and relic quests (yeah, yeah, legacy this and that, I'm talking specifically from your new player analogy), with the promise of more endgame content coming with the first patch. If that's not enough to tide over the hardcore, I guess they'll just have to wait or find a different game.
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#76 Jul 15 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Wasnt it already announced in one of the letters from the producer that shortly after release they will be adding the Crystal Tower and Bahamut's Labarynth as end-game content? And that there is a planned expansion pack on the horizon?
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#77 Jul 15 2013 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:


It's a valid point. Many people could enjoy FFXIV just fine without PvP. Maybe even a vast majority.

But consider this:

KarlHungis wrote:
So because maybe 5-10% of the player base will absolutely not play it for a month or two if they aren't able to get it working perfectly right away, it makes sense to push back the entire release so the other 90-95% of the player base can't play either? You don't see the slight flaw in that reasoning?


There's no flaw in this reasoning, and I'll explain why.

I would say 10% is cutting it a little low for PvP participation, but let's go with that number for now because it works in many similar features of the game. In fact, FFXIV is a collection of features that might only appeal to 10% of the population or so when you get right down to it.



Just to be clear, the original topic you raised was about players for whom PvP is SO important that they literally won't play the game if PvP isn't in the game and working at release. I think even allowing for 10% is a very generous estimate of that number, based on the feedback so far.

I expect that long term, the majority of players are going to at least try PvP, and maybe a significant number will do it regularly.

I still don't expect to see more than 5-10% of the population who treats it as their primary play mode based on the stats I've seen from WoW, Guild Wars 2, SWTOR, etc. The dedicated PvP community tends to be very low double digits as a % of total players, and the truly competitive (people who have a Gladiator title in WoW, for example) are less than 1%.

All I'm talking about is: from a business standpoint, if you're making the go/no-go decision on FFXIV, the state of PvP is just not going to be a factor at all. Even if it's a total disaster in P4, they're not going to shelve the game until they get it right. They'll just shelve PvP until they get it right.

I thought it was pretty clear that's what I am talking about when I say "minor feature." Not "minor" in the sense that no one thinks it's the most important, not "minor" in the sense that it might not eventually be something that lots and lots of people do, but minor in the sense that they have a road map for launch, and "Get PvP perfect" isn't on that roadmap. If it were, then it would have been part of P3.



Edited, Jul 15th 2013 6:07pm by KarlHungis
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#78 Jul 15 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
All I'm talking about is: from a business standpoint, if you're making the go/no-go decision on FFXIV, the state of PvP is just not going to be a factor at all. Even if it's a total disaster in P4, they're not going to shelve the game until they get it right. They'll just shelve Pv until they get it right.

I thought it was pretty clear that's what I am talking about when I say "minor feature." Not "minor" in the sense that no one thinks it's the most important, not "minor" in th sense that it might not eventually be something that lots and lots of people do, but minor in the sense that they have a road map for launch, and "Get PvP perfect" isn't on that roadmap. If it were, then it would have been part of P3.


1) They haven't tested endgame in P3 either and I doubt very much you would conclude that was an unimportant "less than minor" feature.

2) FFXI missed the boat on PvP by waiting a year or two (depending on how you count it) by not having it at launch. Those who would have been into it moved on, and then WoW came along, and that was the end of that.

3) PvP brings a replayability to an MMO in much the same way as a regular gear-grind endgame. You gear up for it, you devise strategies for it, you'll even see linkshells devoted to it. I don't expect everyone to see the value in it but it extends the life of the game once all the story lines and leveling up are over with. It benefits trade classes and it brings in sub dollars. And nothing would announce to the world that FFXIV is serious about PvP like having it available at launch, just like having endgame ready for launch is equally important.
#79 Jul 15 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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KarlHungis wrote:

Just to be clear, the original topic you raised was about players for whom PvP is SO important that they literally won't play the game if PvP isn't in the game and working at release. I think even allowing for 10% is a very generous estimate of that number, based on the feedback so far.

I expect that long term, the majority of players are going to at least try PvP, and maybe a significant number will do it regularly.

I still don't expect to see more than 5-10% of the population who treats it as their primary play mode based on the stats I've seen from WoW, Guild Wars 2, SWTOR, etc. The dedicated PvP community tends to be very low double digits as a % of total players, and the truly competitive (people who have a Gladiator title in WoW, for example) are less than 1%.

All I'm talking about is: from a business standpoint, if you're making the go/no-go decision on FFXIV, the state of PvP is just not going to be a factor at all. Even if it's a total disaster in P4, they're not going to shelve the game until they get it right. They'll just shelve PvP until they get it right.

I thought it was pretty clear that's what I am talking about when I say "minor feature." Not "minor" in the sense that no one thinks it's the most important, not "minor" in the sense that it might not eventually be something that lots and lots of people do, but minor in the sense that they have a road map for launch, and "Get PvP perfect" isn't on that roadmap. If it were, then it would have been part of P3.

There is a reason why people don't play PvP as the primary playmode. It's not the primary feature.And the melee PvP in rng based mmos is the lowest common denominator for fun PvP.

Had TOR had a full blown 3D space dogfighting PvP or pod racing, it would be played alot more. Any system that has emergent gameplay has more replay value than a scripted content because the outcomes always vary regardless of stats and the end is not written by developers.

Any content that has emergent features is the type of stuff that can hold players over in between expansions if it is deep and cool. Crafting, gambling, racing, dungeon builders, chocobo breeding, dynamic events, etc, etc.

But for B2P or F2P it doesn't matter how long a player plays and if they find value as much as it does for a P2P game. They only make money if you purchase something while a P2P wants you to keep playing while paying between expansions. Crafting will get capped one day, jobs in PvE will get capped, story will be completed, scripted quest will run dry or bland. In emergent gameplay progress can be made too but you never really beat it and repeat the same experience over exactly if you wish to repeat play.

TLDR: This a PvE game which most will come here for, but PvP or emergent systems are the thoroughbreds that never run out of steam while the rest of the game develops.
#80 Jul 15 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Had TOR had a full blown 3D space dogfighting PvP


I can't be the only one who was thinking of this exact thing when Bioware talked about space battles being part of the game. Would've been awesome.
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#81 Jul 15 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
All I'm talking about is: from a business standpoint, if you're making the go/no-go decision on FFXIV, the state of PvP is just not going to be a factor at all. Even if it's a total disaster in P4, they're not going to shelve the game until they get it right. They'll just shelve Pv until they get it right.

I thought it was pretty clear that's what I am talking about when I say "minor feature." Not "minor" in the sense that no one thinks it's the most important, not "minor" in th sense that it might not eventually be something that lots and lots of people do, but minor in the sense that they have a road map for launch, and "Get PvP perfect" isn't on that roadmap. If it were, then it would have been part of P3.


1) They haven't tested endgame in P3 either and I doubt very much you would conclude that was an unimportant "less than minor" feature. \



I've already addressed this argument from Ostia in this thread. Since you apparently skimmed past it, I'll summarize:

1) "End game" isn't a feature, it's a way of describing content.
2) They're not going to hold up the launch of the game based on the state of the end game content.
3) So to the extent the two things are similar, the same principle applies

Quote:

2) FFXI missed the boat on PvP by waiting a year or two (depending on how you count it) by not having it at launch. Those who would have been into it moved on, and then WoW came along, and that was the end of that.


Well you're not going to have to wait a year or two from launch this time, but this still isn't a PvP centric game.

Quote:

3) PvP brings a replayability to an MMO in much the same way as a regular gear-grind endgame. You gear up for it, you devise strategies for it, you'll even see linkshells devoted to it. I don't expect everyone to see the value in it but it extends the life of the game once all the story lines and leveling up are over with. It benefits trade classes and it brings in sub dollars. And nothing would announce to the world that FFXIV is serious about PvP like having it available at launch, just like having endgame ready for launch is equally important.


I feel like you're quoting my post without having read a word of it. No one disputes that PvP can be great, and we all obviously comprehend that it's very important to you. I can't really comprehend why you would be playing this particular game if PvP is your main concern, since there are already well established MMOs with better PvP than this game is likely to have (GW2 and WoW both come to mind immediately).

Either way, PvP isn't a key launch feature. It just isn't. You can write a 10,000 word novella on why PvP is the most important achievement of mankind, and it just still isn't a key feature of this particular game at launch. I think I've done a more than adequate job of explaining what I mean and you've gone above and beyond in your effort to ignore what I'm saying, so how many times should we talk past each other?

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 7:26pm by KarlHungis
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#82 Jul 15 2013 at 7:37 PM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Housing and chocobo racing are game systems, just like Auction house is a game system etc etc.... Do i really need to spell this out to you ? We still have latency/client & sever issues, there is still lag when it comes to AOE abilities etc etc, we have spent 3 phases testing the same 20 levels of content, yet the remaining 40 levels of content, will literally go untested, unless they extend phase 4 or delay the game, that is more than 50% of content that will go untested by players, and players are the best testers, for they will think outside of the box on how to beat encounters, in ways that SE could never dream off.


I never even mentioned housing or chocobo racing, especially considering chocobo racing isn't even a thought being implemented yet. Also, I'm pretty sure game systems was to imply the foundations of the game at it's core, at least that's what I meant it as. And yeah, there still are some minor latency/client issues, which is why it's good that they are still testing more of the basic stuff. Please don't get condescending though, especially when you can't even use simple math to figure out that 20+40= 60, and the cap is 50. Not to mention dungeons, FATEs, leves, and behests went up into the 30's, so no, all the content didn't stop at 20, just the main storyline and quests did.

Other than that, I actually agree with you that I wish they had time to test the higher content, even if they had made it a legacy-only type situation (would have been a nice perk for those with legacy status). I agree that players make the best beta testers and that I do wish there was more time to get some of that content tested.

Ostia wrote:
As for Swotor, yes swotor failed because of lack of end game, the class unbalance issue came to front when there was the lack of content, when you have only 2 raids and dungeons to run at cap level, what else is there to do ? PVP, in that is when class unbalance cost them dearly, for now not only is your end game content lacking, but the only other content avaiable is basically unplayable... Seriously you should try playing some MMOS sometimes.


As you already know, I have plenty of mmo experience. I was just calling you on completely changing your opinion on swtor failing, because you tried to mock me for saying it was related to endgame while claiming it was the combat that caused it, which, if you've played swtor you'll realize is rather silly since the combat is quite fun and like a jazzed up version of WoW combat. Now if you had mentioned the combat LAG, and how abilities sometimes don't even activate yet still waste your GCD, I'd have agreed with you, as that is one of the more annoying bugs (which I've mentioned as being one of the reasons swtor is failing).

Ostia wrote:
Right now leveling up is way to easy, there will be people hitting 50 within the first 24 hours, let alone a week, once they get there they will start spamming primal fights, collect gear and tackle the 2 raids, one which is incomplete, and the other will not have bahamut avaiable on release. So techincally both raids will be incomplete.... Shiva, Ramuh will not be at release, so that is 3 primals, 2 incomplete raids at release..... Totally a non issue.


This is not the majority of players. This is the very small minority of hardcore players, who, regardless of how fast you implement endgame content, will burn through it. And fyi, it will be 3 primals, 2 raids, 4 beastmen camps with endgame FATEs, AF quests, and relic quests (yeah, yeah, legacy this and that, I'm talking specifically from your new player analogy), with the promise of more endgame content coming with the first patch. If that's not enough to tide over the hardcore, I guess they'll just have to wait or find a different game.


Game systems are game systems, foundations are foundations, or what you interpret as game foundations, the latency issue is major flag right now, it's been since alpha, we are going into phase 4 Open Beta. Fates and guildhest do not even compare to end game content, they are filler content, guildhest might as well be level 10 content, since the difficulty or complexity of them on level 30 are the same as the ones in level 10, Level 10-15 guildhest are tutorials as off right now, and you only do them once, there is no point in doing them more than that, the EXP/GIL reward is subpar when compared to Grand Company Leves, and the content is mediocre at Best.

As for Swotor... Again you are missing the point, did Swotor lack end game content ? Indeed, it had only 2 raids, and flashpoints, but also had PVP, PVP does prolong a games content, and it is end game content, the problem Swotor had was that when the majority of players reached the end game, and where done with it or burned out, their other avenue was broken, and unbalanced, had it been done right, it would have given the developing team some time to correct the PVE aspect of the game, since people did had something to do, but when both PVP and PVE are out, what are players then to do ? Sit down and craft ? Crafting does not sell MMORPGS, nor RPGs, nor anything, crafting is a side gimick to compliment an MMO, is not the main course, and it will never Be.

It is the majority of players, the majority of players got to cap level withing weeks of in WOW, in Rift, In GW2, in any other game that is not XI or EQ.... Yet this one is special ? How so ? The leveling system is the same, yet somehow people will take their sweet time getting to cap ? Lmao! Yeah OK!

Fates are not End Game Content, just like they where not in Rift or in GW2, they where a nice addition to the leveling system, that was nice to have, Fates in XIV do not even drop Items... Primals are not end game content, they where the lame excuse of End Game Content in 1.0, but having them as end game content in ARR is in insult, the excuse for the primals being single encounters and not instances or raids, was that the coding in 1.0 did not allowed developers to properly construct said content... Well they did fix that Right ? So why are we having the same exact content in 2.0 ? Beast man strongholds... Really ? Come on, they where boring and lame, a zergfest from start to finish with no strategy involved... If that is all we are gonna get for end game content... The big patch better come a month into the games life.
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#83 Jul 15 2013 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm with Ostia on this. Are they holding a lot back for Phase 4, Early Access, or Live? Seems a bit thin at the moment. I know there are raids planned, but has there been any mention of when? How about large scale PvP?

When is my big question. And if it will come fast enough.

EDIT:

Quote:
2) They're not going to hold up the launch of the game based on the state of the end game content.


They should. Why should they not?

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:08pm by Yotis
#84 Jul 15 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Game systems are game systems, foundations are foundations, or what you interpret as game foundations, the latency issue is major flag right now, it's been since alpha, we are going into phase 4 Open Beta. Fates and guildhest do not even compare to end game content, they are filler content

I haven't seen anything even CLOSE to a major latency issue. I've seen the occasional AoE attack that hits even if you are out of the circle before the cast bar completes (like 1 in 50) and a few other very minor concerns. What are you seeing that is so major? Also, you pointed out there isn't content after 20, I pointed out there is. It's really that cut and dry, filler content or no.

Ostia wrote:
As for Swotor... Again you are missing the point

How exactly am I missing the point? Did I even mention crafting in swtor? Nope, I didn't. PvP wasn't "out", it was actually incredibly popular initially, and again once they merged the servers after everyone quit. There were instant queues at all times of day, and there were sometimes 10+ instances of huttball going on. PvP was never an issue because it was actually fun. The issue was the class balance IN PvP, which I had already mentioned, and the lack of PvE endgame content, which I already mentioned. PvP itself was never broken, it was just unbalanced. I know you'll want to claim that's the same thing, it really isn't. I had all elite warhero gear and was capped rank for PvP, trust me, that aspect of the game was actually one of the strongest parts of swtor (other than them constantly rebreaking the balance and creating flavor of the month classes like smash sents, hybrid sorcs, gunslingers, and vanguards). Even unbalanced, it was a lot of fun and the ideas behind PvP were mechanically sound and working fine.

Ostia wrote:
It is the majority of players, the majority of players got to cap level withing weeks of in WOW, in Rift, In GW2, in any other game that is not XI or EQ.... Yet this one is special ? How so ? The leveling system is the same, yet somehow people will take their sweet time getting to cap ? Lmao! Yeah OK!

The reason it takes longer is because of leveling multiple classes for cross-class skills, leveling crafting in order to add materia to your gear or craft gear/accessories/food/medicine, and leveling gathering to support crafting. Some people WILL be at cap in under a week. Most will not. And I still don't think the majority of players in those games were at cap in a couple weeks. I think the majority took considerably longer than that. Heck, I played 4-5 hours a day when I was unemployed and it still took me a month to hit cap in WoW, and that was 80 cap.

Ostia wrote:
Fates are not End Game Content... Primals are not end game content... Beast man strongholds... Really ? Come on, they where boring and lame, a zergfest from start to finish with no strategy involved...

Yoshi-P himself said there would be endgame FATEs, and I'm guessing that many of them will occur in the strongholds, thus making it more of an endgame event. I'm guessing those will drop gear, but who knows for sure. Hard Mode/Extreme Mode Primals are endgame content, whether you want to admit it or not. You also completely glossed over relics and AF. And yeah, I already know your response "lmao, that sh*t is so easy! Everything is so easy! Lololol!" I get it, everything is easy mode to you. Go play a different game then where you can challenge yourself if you have such a problem with all the difficulty or lack of content. It's honestly that simple.

Why are we even arguing about endgame content? It's not out yet, so it's a pointless debate. Once the game launches, we'll see how it goes. Fair enough?

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:01pm by BartelX
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#85 Jul 15 2013 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Gnu wrote:
Suijin wrote:
Quote:

Okay, so after reading up the summary-so-far on 2ch, from what I gather it's:

August 1st - Character Creation Benchmark
August 8th - Producer Letter Live, in which they'll announce when the start date for Phase 4 is.

Hence, it will seem that Phase 4 will start sometime after that.


Credits to Stanislaw again for translating.

I personally think it will probably start around the 15th.. but who knows Smiley: smile


Could you provide the link for this translation? I'm certainly not willing to stumble around 2ch from work!

But really, thanks for providing the most relevant info I've seen thus far on the timing of Phase 4! Rate up for sure.


Just to clarify, that quote was taken directly from the Blue Gartr (BG) Forums, Stanislaw just happens to be a poster over there Smiley: smile
The link to the translation, can be found here

And the source is from the recent Nico Nico event that was held on Sunday, Yoshi announced the above dates there. Smiley: grin
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#86Ostia, Posted: Jul 15 2013 at 9:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The latency issue in 1.0 was such a big issue because of fight mechanics like Ifrit in 1.0, since ARR is following into the WOW boss mechanics territory, we should expect that more encounters will have mechanics where you need to evade attacks, move out of the way of things, click things, etc etc.. .In 1.0 it was mostly Ifrit and ifrit extreme, in ARR latency issues will be much more pronounce since most content deals with moving away of stuff on floors, clicking things to stop adds from spawning etc etc.
#87 Jul 15 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
The latency issue in 1.0 was such a big issue because of fight mechanics like Ifrit in 1.0, since ARR is following into the WOW boss mechanics territory, we should expect that more encounters will have mechanics where you need to evade attacks, move out of the way of things, click things, etc etc.. .In 1.0 it was mostly Ifrit and ifrit extreme, in ARR latency issues will be much more pronounce since most content deals with moving away of stuff on floors, clicking things to stop adds from spawning etc etc.

You claim PVP was not broken, but that only classes where imbalanced.... Do you even know the definition of oxymoron ? That statement must be up there with "Scalable damage dealers" seriously that statement was just insane.

As soon as you provide me the proof of this huge surge of "New Players" that is the reason as to why the game is so easy mode, i will be more than happy to provide you with the evidence of how little time it takes for players to get to cap level in modern MMOS, with this game not being and exception.

Primals are not end game content, they where an excuse for content in 1.0, Onyxia was not end game content, it was a loot pi~ata, and even onyxia had a lair with a few trash pulls. As for the rest, sure we can wait, but once i am right, you must admit it :D


I'm confused, what does 1.0 latency issues have to do with ARR? ARR does NOT have the same latency issues as 1.0. Have you been having major issues with it? I certainly haven't. A 1 in 50 lag that happened in mob and player heavy FATEs is hardly anything to be concerned with. I never had an issue in a dungeon, or anywhere without a mass amount of people and mobs.

The core mechanics of the entire PvP system worked flawlessly in swtor. Huttball was fun, interesting, and worked every time. Alderaan and Novare Coast were control point WZ's that functioned perfectly. Voidstar was a timed, break down the barriers style WZ that functioned perfectly. They were all fun, worked without incident, and although classes were not always balanced, it still required a good group of players to win a WZ. You couldn't just stack 8 vanguards and win. You had to have tanks, you had to have DPS, you had to have healers, and you had to use tactics in every single warzone. A good DPS of any class could beat even an average flavor of the month class with skill and tactics. Skill and gear were the ultimate trump cards, like every other well-designed PvP. It's not an oxymoron at all. Did you even play pvp in swtor, cuz it certainly doesn't seem like it.

As I told you, I was in a top-rated ranked 8 man team that did ranked 4 nights a week for the better part of a year. PvP was one of the LEAST broken aspects of swtor. Having classes imbalanced was an annoying inconvenience that only was a detriment in that it got so frustrating to see which class they would super-buff or super-nerf next.

As for endgame, I guess we'll see. Even if you are wrong, I doubt you'd ever admit it... I've yet to see that happen from you, ever.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 11:37pm by BartelX
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#89 Jul 15 2013 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah Ostia is the type of person that believes WoW was the perfect MMORPG and had zero issues in any regards. He's been wrong on numerous occasions, he doesn't admit it, he just fades out of existence and stalks another thread. In XIV 1.0 you dodged attacks (he wouldn't know because he didn't do the content in 1.0) and latency was far less of an issues compared to animation lock.

In ARR you do nothing but dodge attacks, which isn't something WoW invented because I clearly remember playing many RPGs and other type of games in the 90s where dodging attacks were a staple mechanic.

Ostia: "But in terms of MMORPGs it started because WoW did it first!"

All in all, there will be a lack of content end game because they've said in the latest developers commentary most of the content is 4 man parties and I don't know about you, but that says 2 things:

1. Most content will be leveling dungeons like what we've seen in beta
2. Most end-game content can't really be classified as such and that leaves a small number of actual end-game content coming at release that requires 8-24 people.
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#90Ostia, Posted: Jul 16 2013 at 12:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Smiley: lol Ostia has been right about the following major issues Smiley: lol
#91Ostia, Posted: Jul 16 2013 at 12:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You are confused, the only reason the latency issues in ARR do not seem as bad as in 1.0 is because we no longer have animation locks.... If we still had those, it would be the same, latency is a serious problem that should be addressed as quick as possible, again your arguing in the side of ignorance, latency/lag is a game breaking issue, that should not be dismissed as "Pfff a 1 in 20 chance to lag in heavy populated content ? Please!" as you have yourself said, if there will be End game FATES, that would probably emulate NM and HNM.... Latency will be a major issue, since there will be lots and lots of people camping, and trying to claim them, also most fates spawn 15-25 monsters, and in lower levels there is a high number of people doing them.... the game does slows down in heavy populated areas, specially fates where effects are going off etc etc.... Also since this game is moving towards a more WOW like boss encounter type fights... Latency would be a major issue, imagine doing 25 man heroic Lich King, with high latency problems...... One thing is losing or dying because you make a mistake, another issue is to die, because the server could not register that you did indeed move on time from the fire :/
#92 Jul 16 2013 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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Yotis wrote:
I'm with Ostia on this. Are they holding a lot back for Phase 4, Early Access, or Live? Seems a bit thin at the moment. I know there are raids planned, but has there been any mention of when? How about large scale PvP?

When is my big question. And if it will come fast enough.



Yoshi has already talked about the numerous types of end game content that's going to be in the game at launch as well as what's being patched in shortly after launch. Someone summarized already in this thread I believe. It's all stuff they've been testing internally for awhile now. In other words, they're holding back a bunch of content because they want people testing the core game, not racing to beat the end game before the game even goes on sale.

EDIT:

Quote:


They should. Why should they not?

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:08pm by Yotis


Because they wouldn't have even announced a launch date if they hadn't been hitting their internal goals, which means that even if they hit some snags, most of that content is still going to be there at launch. It seems like players think that because they haven't seen content it isn't done, even though the content has clearly all been tested extensively internally before it even hits beta.

The offer I made earlier in this thread stands. If any one thinks the game is going to be pushed back, ill wager 100k gil that it won't be.



Edited, Jul 16th 2013 3:22am by KarlHungis
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#93 Jul 16 2013 at 2:15 AM Rating: Excellent
Wow, I had to make an account just because reading this thread is making me insane, regarding the pushing back the release date thing.

Once you're within a couple months of release, pushing back your release date will cause a HUGE amount of loss of confidence. This translates directly to sales. They WILL 100% WITHOUT A DOUBT keep their release date. It doesn't matter how important PVP is to what percentage of the people, we are way too close for them to do this.

Delaying PVP a few weeks or months to iron out bugs is vastly preferable to damaging the image of an already tarnished name to ALL of their consumers.

As far as end game goes- end game is largely just an extension of what's already tested. Legacy players are able to test their high-level abilities, general dungeon mechanics have been tested, the only thing left is bigger numbers and whatever unique abilities a boss will have. PVP on the other hand is completely untested, Player stats and values are tuned vs monsters, not other players. The amount of armor/HP/damage involved is completely topsy-turvy.

To equate the untestedness of "end-game" (i.e. dungeons, but higher level) to PVP is ludicrous.
#94 Jul 16 2013 at 4:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia, you sure do a lot of typing for a man that had a farewell thread about how you wont be buying the game...


You must just love talking about FFXIV.... Or your on some mission to persuade players from playing. Smiley: laugh
#95 Jul 16 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
You are confused, the only reason the latency issues in ARR do not seem as bad as in 1.0 is because we no longer have animation locks.... If we still had those, it would be the same, latency is a serious problem that should be addressed as quick as possible, again your arguing in the side of ignorance, latency/lag is a game breaking issue, that should not be dismissed as "Pfff a 1 in 20 chance to lag in heavy populated content ? Please!" as you have yourself said, if there will be End game FATES, that would probably emulate NM and HNM.... Latency will be a major issue, since there will be lots and lots of people camping, and trying to claim them, also most fates spawn 15-25 monsters, and in lower levels there is a high number of people doing them.... the game does slows down in heavy populated areas, specially fates where effects are going off etc etc.... Also since this game is moving towards a more WOW like boss encounter type fights... Latency would be a major issue, imagine doing 25 man heroic Lich King, with high latency problems...... One thing is losing or dying because you make a mistake, another issue is to die, because the server could not register that you did indeed move on time from the fire :/

Your issue Ostia, is that instead of responding to what someone has written, you just change sh*t to your own version of it to try and make a point. Somehow 1 in 50 became 1 in 20. When did that happen? Did I say 1 in 20? Nope, never did! The rest of your argument is so paper thin it's freaking ridiculous. I've done every aspect of content available in the beta so far. I've NEVER had "Game-breaking" latency issues. Heck, even at the Highbridge FATEs, where there are literally over 20 mobs and were well over 50 people, the worst the latency ever got was missing the AoE circle about 1 in 50, like I said. Comparing that to ANY other game I've played, WoW, lotro, ffxi, ffxiv 1.0... that's amazing! There was also zero lag in those situations. None. Zip. Nada. That's unheard of for that many players and mobs on screen. Heck, I'd lag in WoW if there were more than 20-25 people on screen.

The worst issues I've had were the 1 in 50 AoE misses (which would never be a problem in a 24-man instance since I've never had that problem with less than 30-40 players and 15-20 mobs on screen), fall damage not happening instantly, a tenth of a second delay when interacting with objects before the progress bar appears, and if I use multiple skills in between GCD I will sometimes have to press the second button twice. Wow, those sure are game-breaking.

Ostia wrote:
See here is where i stop believing you are a whatever you say you are... You say the core mechanics of PVP where fine in swotor... Yet you also say classes where imbalanced.... CLASS BALANCE IS THE CORE MECHANIC FOR PVP!! With out class balance you cannot have flawless Player Vs Player as you Said! It is Impossible! It's a contradictory Statement. This added to the "Scalable damage dealer" thing... seriously makes me question you have all this "Years of MMO" experience.... But as you always do, i am sure you will hide behind "Is my Opinion" argument that you always throw around ever time you get busted around here Smiley: wink


Lmao, if you honestly think that classes are balanced in WoW pvp, or really any other game that has pvp you're a bigger troll than I thought. It's virtually impossible to completely balance the classes, because every time you make ANY changes to a class, you are throwing it out of balance with the others. There are ALWAYS going to be classes that are more powerful than others.

Oh, and also, stop taking everything I write out of context. I never said PvP was flawless, I said the core mechanics to it, as in the warzones and tactics involved, worked flawlessly, which they did. You do this every time... you focus in on one word of a post and then try and claim things that people never said. It's what people who are bad at arguing do to try and prove their point. PvP was fun and the biggest issue it had was that classes were imbalanced (like almost every game that has PvP). Don't believe me? Why don't you ask reavers in lotro how balanced pvp is. Or how about rogues in gw2 or WoW? It might have changed, but when I played 3 years ago, a well played rogue was pretty much unstoppable. So quit your BS about class balance breaking PvP. It's a ridiculous argument, and you know it.

As for my opinions, you're **** right they are my opinions, because I'm not condescending and arrogant enough to think that everything I state is a fact like you. Although in this case, it's just a simple case of I have the experience playing the game, and you're just talking out of your ***. Now go do some research on swtor pvp so you can come back and pretend like you played it and know what you are talking about.

Edited, Jul 16th 2013 9:18am by BartelX
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#96 Jul 16 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was hoping to see if anyone had any more details on Phase 4. I think the thread title mislead me a bit. Little did I know that this is the the thread-of-the-week that has been highjacked to discuss how FFXIV compares to WoW.
#97 Jul 16 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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