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Fear of not tanking.Follow

#1 Jul 15 2013 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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I have been reading about how many duty finder parties encounter bad tanks. I have only tanked in the instances that I have tried. Mainly due to the fear of meeting a tank that people keep talking about.

I doubt I am an excellent tank, but I think I do a decent job. I am able to keep all the mobs on me, most of the time, occasionally I lose one, but with a quick tomahawk, I can bring it back to me. The other class I would be interested in playing is a healer class, since that is what I usually play in MMO's.

I have never wiped on an instance(I have only done up to the lvl,20 instance. DPS always attacked my mob, whether he was marked or not. Healer always kept me alive.

My questions are:

1. Do any players have a fear of not playing their current role, DD, tank or healer, out of some sense of pride or fear of having a player of less skill taking that spot?

2. Are duty finder tanks really that bad where my fears are justified?

and Off topic

3. How can I tell which adds during boss fights that I should tank, or just let the DD burn them down?
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#2 Jul 15 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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The game's a learning process, so you shouldn't be "in fear." The thing is, as long as you ask questions, try to improve, and listen to the party, then you can't be a bad tank/DD/healer/whatever. It's those people who refuse to listen that are the bad ones.
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#3 Jul 15 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Sometimes you have dds that don't watch hate. I had a lancer chuck javelins before I could even shield lob or just start soloing stuff that will eat them alive lol
#4 Jul 15 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Excellent
godagun wrote:
Sometimes you have dds that don't watch hate. I had a lancer chuck javelins before I could even shield lob or just start soloing stuff that will eat them alive lol


This is just bad DDing. When I DD, I don't enjoy getting hit so it's in my best interest to let the big dude with the shield get his face bitten off. You would think it would be common sense.
#5 Jul 15 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Stilivan wrote:
The game's a learning process, so you shouldn't be "in fear." The thing is, as long as you ask questions, try to improve, and listen to the party, then you can't be a bad tank/DD/healer/whatever. It's those people who refuse to listen that are the bad ones.


I also add that as long as you don't set your flag for Duty Finder and then go afk leaving the group with 3 people to scramble to win without a tank, you're golden with me. This has happened to me and a lot of friends during Beta. A tank must accept the invite to proceed, don't think we won't bash you for doing this once the game launches.
#6 Jul 15 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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Imios wrote:
1. Do any players have a fear of not playing their current role, DD, tank or healer, out of some sense of pride or fear of having a player of less skill taking that spot?


Eh, no. I do know where you're coming from though. I'm a GLA because I love to tank stuff, so I always aim to be the best at it. However, even though I know people will be worse than me, there will also be people who are better than me as well. So I take both sides as a learning experience. I actually enjoy watching bad tanks too, and giving them advice. I hope SE fixes the /tell problem so I'll be enabled to give them pointers without calling them out.

I think this answers your second question as well.

Imios wrote:
3. How can I tell which adds during boss fights that I should tank, or just let the DD burn them down?


It's usually by the amount of effort it takes to kill them all. If there's a bunch of them, you'll want to grab them so they won't swarm your other party members. If the add has a lot of HP, you'll want to tank that too. There was also an interesting scenario in Brayflox where an add spawned attacking an NPC, and you'll want to save him.

If it's your first run, and you and your party honestly don't know for sure, go for the safe route and tank everything.
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#7 Jul 15 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Great Tanks don't allow anything stray away, know when they need to use CDs, move out of abilities, Mark targets, position Mobs perfectly when tanking to keep the rest of the group safe. Good tanks do most of the things great tanks do but sometimes a mob gets away but is quickly picked up. Playable tanks you can get through the instance with good DPS or Healers. Bad tanks don't take aggro off from other players, don't watch the group for adds, they pretty much make it look like a mess and the dungeons sometimes don't get finished.

My very last dungeon run I was with a (35)34 tank that did everything perfectly, these are a very small group of people. The 2 DPS were also very good, but the tank was perfect. It was the quickest and most efficient run I had in beta. It reminded me of when you played with people you knew and you play that much better, that's what FC's are for.

BUT just with anything it isn't always the tank so not everyone of those stories can be believed.

1. Yes I take pride in everything I play. I played back in EQ days when dying was a harsh experience. It made you want to play your character better, learn the best possible abilities to use at what times. It made you not want to slack b.c the other people with you are counting on you to perform at your best.

2. Duty finder just puts you together with random people and you will find plenty do not play well not just tanks.

3. Usually Healer always dies first, then caster, and last melee. Or sometimes Healer, biggest spike damage dealer, everything else. Just depends on what the tank feels comfortable, or if you have a mage sleep. Just mark and fight, marking mobs is the easiest thing to do when you want to control the group. Just need to do it fast and not take 10 min to do it.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 1:16pm by Mopdaddy
#8 Jul 15 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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HeroMystic wrote:
Imios wrote:
1. Do any players have a fear of not playing their current role, DD, tank or healer, out of some sense of pride or fear of having a player of less skill taking that spot?


Eh, no. I do know where you're coming from though. I'm a GLA because I love to tank stuff, so I always aim to be the best at it. However, even though I know people will be worse than me, there will also be people who are better than me as well. So I take both sides as a learning experience. I actually enjoy watching bad tanks too, and giving them advice. I hope SE fixes the /tell problem so I'll be enabled to give them pointers without calling them out.

I think this answers your second question as well.

Imios wrote:
3. How can I tell which adds during boss fights that I should tank, or just let the DD burn them down?


It's usually by the amount of effort it takes to kill them all. If there's a bunch of them, you'll want to grab them so they won't swarm your other party members. If the add has a lot of HP, you'll want to tank that too. There was also an interesting scenario in Brayflox where an add spawned attacking an NPC, and you'll want to save him.

If it's your first run, and you and your party honestly don't know for sure, go for the safe route and tank everything.



Thank you. That is pretty much what I do currently. The dungeons so far have been easy enough in the add department where unless I go afk, the boss will go down, but, like you, I try to strive to be better than I currently am.

The main thing is that I like to complete the dungeon I queue up for. When I go as a tank, I pretty much know for sure that we will succeed in the dungeon. Currently there is no DD I have interest in playing so it isn't much of a concern, but if and when they release a thief class, I will be playing that pretty heavily and hopefully I can do what I can complete to help complete the dungeon. But, as a DD I feel I have less control over the outcome of the dungeon. Apart from doing as much damage as I can without pulling hate I feel pretty helpless.
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#9 Jul 15 2013 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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From my experience I've only had two or three tanks that were anywhere near as competent as I am with GLA and I ran well over 50 instances. The guildhests were the worst, as I used them to level my CNJ up and ended up heal tanking pretty much every one of them. I've also had to tank three or four bosses as healer, which I don't really understand. If all I'm doing is healing then how can I pull threat away from the tank and DDs? Once I got access to repose things got a bit better, I was able to sleep extra adds, but most of the time they would just come attack me when they woke up.

All a tank needs from a DD is for them to attack their primary target first while they gain threat on the group. after that target goes down I don't care what you attack since I'll basically be able to auto attack the rest of the fight without losing threat anyway. Once the first target is about to die save up an enmity combo move and use it to start the next mob and no one will pull off you.

My girlfriend's brother picked up MAR and when we started doing dungeons with him he didn't even know MAR was a tank class. I told him what abilities to use and he knocked it out of the park. I don't believe he has ever tanked in FFXI or another MMO before. I just don't understand why it is so difficult for some people.. maybe they are running around with broken weapons or something. XD

All things said, I will most likely end up PLD as my first job. I always play Paladin in games and my girlfriend really likes CNJ/WHM, so it works out well. I was a Paladin in FFXI and WoW. I ended up being a holy Paladin in WoW since healers tended to be the weak link in groups. Now it just looks like tanks are the weak link in XIV so I'll just fill that role. It will most likely flip around at end game though, when you can't just spam your heals and you actually have to watch your MP.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 3:02pm by DamienSScott
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#10 Jul 15 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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I came across some horrible tanks, and also some very good ones. It's a mixed bag when you use the Duty Finder.

It reminds me a lot of the queue system in DC Universe (In a good way.)

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#11 Jul 15 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Are good tanks on ps3 with a controller? Do you feel that you can tank efficiently without a keyboard? Any macros used?
#12 Jul 15 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just don't understand why it is so difficult for some people.. maybe they are running around with broken weapons or something. XD


To me it comes down to two things:

1. Some people do not understand that a tanks primary purpose is not to DO damage, but to ABSORB it. Yes, as a function of their purpose they do damage, but that is not their primary responsibility. This is where you get the tanks that don't flash or pull mobs off of other people, they are too busy trying to kill the mob themselves to do their job.

2. Some people just have very little or no situational awareness. These are the people that don't multitask well, and tanking is a multitasking position.

To me the tank is like the center on an offensive line in football. He has to protect his QB, but he also has to be able recognize threats and make adjustments for the rest of the line.
#13 Jul 15 2013 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly only had like 3 bad groups using the duty finder. Two had really bad tanks that weren't even holding threat against the CNJ's first cure, and the third had a CNJ who was too busy casting stone to actually keep the Tank over quarter HP. The majority of them were stellar, with little more talking outside of a hello and good job we proceeded to steam roll the dungeons with little effort.

There's always going to be some bad players in random groups, but most of them will get better if you give them positive feed back and gentle correction. It's the fortunately rarer completely brain dead ones who make you want to smash your screen. But it's not like there's anything that can be done to fix that, no matter how much you dumb down a game, there's still going to be someone who will find it too hard.

1) There will always be someone worse and someone better than you at a certain role letting that determine what you want to play will just leave you frustrated and suck the fun outa the game. Learn from the better players, try to teach the weaker ones.

2) Really most of the tanks in Duty finder have been fine IMO, it's more often that us DD are being brain dead. Either not paying attention to what target they are attacking or not watching the threat bar and knowing when to back off.

3) Tanks should be trying to grab threat on everything that is attacking the party. It's far easier for the Healer to keep one target healed than three.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 10:33pm by Wyldkat
#14 Jul 15 2013 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
godagun wrote:
Sometimes you have dds that don't watch hate. I had a lancer chuck javelins before I could even shield lob or just start soloing stuff that will eat them alive lol


This is just bad DDing. When I DD, I don't enjoy getting hit so it's in my best interest to let the big dude with the shield get his face bitten off. You would think it would be common sense.


As a healer, I won't even toss those knuckleheads a cure until the tank has established some hate. No sense in making a bad situation go from bad to worse.


Regarding the OP, I'm nervous about tanking also simply because I've never done it before; healing is my favorite. That having been said, I fell in love with mrd during the beta and I want to level one in addition to my healing class. However, I want to play mrd as a dd, but I know that there will be situations when I will be asked to tank. I know what it's like to have a terrible tank though, so I'm going to be studying the first mrd tanking I find. I guess this means having to carry around 2 sets of mrd gear though.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 5:47pm by schneiderw
#15 Jul 15 2013 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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i wanted to play a lancer however none of my RL buddies elected to play the tank but one did decide to play our white mage, so I decided I'd handle tank. everyone in a party has their job, tanks set the pace, dd's follow the tanks lead, mages sleep off targets, heal and dd. you can't succeed without leadership and im not willing to have to find a good tank in-game and befriend them etc etc.
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#16 Jul 15 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Any time you have a game that randomly pairs people together you're going to have bad parties. Period. Not all the time of course, but it will happen as it has to be several times recently. One of the more recent ones I would attempt to sleep all the mobs in order for the party to focus on one, making it easier. I swear the tank was intentionally one-hitting every mob I slept to wake them up. As a result, everyone was attacking everything.

Tip: Let the mage sleep the mobs and focus on one. It makes life way easier for everyone.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 6:11pm by electromagnet83
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#17 Jul 15 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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I can kinda get this.

Although I want to tank, just to get in a group a bit faster, but really I've noticed anecdotally that DPS had about the same time finding a group in the DF.

I learned a little more about tanking when I did DPS in dungeons as well.
#18 Jul 15 2013 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Tip: Let the mage sleep the mobs and focus on one. It makes life way easier for everyone.


Again, something you would think would be common sense. Ask any FFXI Dynamis vet how quickly things can go to sh!% when someone attacks a slept mob like a dumba$$.
#19 Jul 15 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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That is the only problem with these easy dungeons is people think they can pull the mobs and other things will come to surface when they hit harder content.
#20 Jul 15 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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schneiderw wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
godagun wrote:
Sometimes you have dds that don't watch hate. I had a lancer chuck javelins before I could even shield lob or just start soloing stuff that will eat them alive lol


This is just bad DDing. When I DD, I don't enjoy getting hit so it's in my best interest to let the big dude with the shield get his face bitten off. You would think it would be common sense.


As a healer, I won't even toss those knuckleheads a cure until the tank has established some hate. No sense in making a bad situation go from bad to worse.


Regarding the OP, I'm nervous about tanking also simply because I've never done it before; healing is my favorite. That having been said, I fell in love with mrd during the beta and I want to level one in addition to my healing class. However, I want to play mrd as a dd, but I know that there will be situations when I will be asked to tank. I know what it's like to have a terrible tank though, so I'm going to be studying the first mrd tanking I find. I guess this means having to carry around 2 sets of mrd gear though.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 5:47pm by schneiderw


At least for the first 30 or so levels, you'll only need to carry one set of gear–a heavy set. Any additional bonuses on another set of gear wouldn't be worth losing the extra defense. As far as playing MRD as a DPS goes, I think you might run into problems. Unless the tank is really good, you'll probably end up grabbing quite a bit of the monster's attention. Your highest damage combo has an enmity modifier on it. Going back to my first point, wearing heavy armor would be a huge plus in those situations.

When you get WAR, things will become even worse. Defiance decreases your damage but further increases your enmity generation. You could go as MRD or just not use Defiance, but you end up wasting a lot of your class's potential. My suggestion would be to try out LNC once Beta 4 opens up. It's the most similar DPS to MRD, and it would save you from being asked to tank. I realize that Great Axes are ****, but you might enjoy LNC and DRG more on the long term.

If you do decide to stick with MRD, the best piece of advice I can give you is to level GLA and PGL before you hit the dungeons. You'll want to get Flash and Second Wind. Flash is a good way to start out a battle and to generate additional hate during long fights. Second Wind is pretty much a free potion on a timer. For multiple enemies, using Overpower 2-3 times at the start is a great way to cement hate. If you're up against 5+, combining Bloodbath and Overpower can help make things easier on the healer. Other than that, you'll mostly just use Fracture, Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder, and Heavy Swing > Maim until more abilities become available.
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#21 Jul 15 2013 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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certain people will reach lvl 50 and have pimp gear, some wont. kind of exciting. even if you never reach lvl 50, there is a lot to do and explore.
#23 Jul 15 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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FluEpidemic wrote:
Are good tanks on ps3 with a controller? Do you feel that you can tank efficiently without a keyboard? Any macros used?


I played a Gladiator to level 30 with my Xbox 360 controller on my PC, identical control layout as the PS3 controller. It was very efficient (imo). Being able to move, switch targets, and hit macros all at the same time basically. If you know how to use the controller it works pretty well. I could mark targets (1, 2, 3, etc.) and quickly switch targets for hate control with the Dpad.

Near the end of phase 3, I switched to KB/Mouse combo just to test it out, and felt myself very crippled. WASD movement and 1,2,3,4,etc. hotkeys made it hard to move accurately and use abilities simultaneously. Moving with the mouse was an option, but an inaccurate one. Moving with the analog stick on a controller while pressing trigger + A, B, X, Y, etc. for specific abilities felt much smoother.

I'm sure I could play with the key bindings a bit more to figure out something more efficient, but as it sat, I felt more efficient using the Default PS3/360 controller layout than I did when I used the default KB/Mouse combo.
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#24 Jul 15 2013 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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I would like to use a keyboard and mouse for PS3. Only problem is on PS3 I couldn't find a way to remap the keys.

Unlike the poster above me I found doing anything but CNJ hard to play with controller. The targeting was all odd for me even after changing it around and using L+circle, triangle..., targeting changes.

As a healer though I thought a controller was the best thing in the world especially when I was in groups. I couldn't believe how great it worked. Thankfully I was going to play healer from start so I don't have to worry much.

If they can give me the ability to remap my keyboard keys on PS3 I would be 100% set with this game. Right now I am 99% :)


Edited, Jul 15th 2013 7:15pm by Mopdaddy
#25 Jul 15 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Mopdaddy wrote:
If they can give me the ability to change remap my keyboard keys I would be 100% set with this game. Right now I am 99% :)


You can, in the main menu there is a Keybinds menu. You can change every key in the game, and add a few that aren't there by default.
Edit: I see you added the "on the PS3". I'm not 100% if that menu still exists on the PS3, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't. Obviously I cannot log in right now on my PS3 to check Smiley: smile

Quote:
Unlike the poster above me I found doing anything but CNJ hard to play with controller. The targeting was all odd for me even after changing it around and using L+circle, triangle..., targeting changes.


I left it as the default targeting system. Up/Down Dpad cycled through your party members (handy for healers, or anything that needed to target party). Left/Right on the Dpad cycled through the on screen enemies. Was able to lock on to my main target, then if I quickly needed to switch to an add for hate control, I'd just tap left or right, L/R Trigger + A/B/Y/X or (X/O/Tri/Squ) to fire off an provoke or shield lob, and the target would automatically go back to my main target so I could keep attacking. Or if I needed to permanently switch targets, just tap Left or Right and press the Confirm button to switch.

Used the controller as Conjurer, Gladiator, and Thaumaturge. The only things I hadn't really used it as was Melee DD, so I guess there could be some inefficiencies there, but I can't imagine how.

I was impressed by how well the controller scheme works. And I will probably keep using it, since Keyboard/Mouse didn't impress me enough to change.

Edited, Jul 15th 2013 7:23pm by TirithRR
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#26 Jul 15 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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For some reason as default the targets kept being everything but what was in front of me in dungeons. Yea on the PS3 I couldn't find it.
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