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Scholar v. White MageFollow

#1 Jul 25 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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I know nothing official about Scholar abilities has been mentioned, other than that it will specialize in HoT, but I am wondering how people think SCH will stack up as a healer against a WHM.

I like playing the healer class, and I loved playing SCH in FFXI, but WHM usually trumped SCH in the healing department.

Do you guys think SCH will have access to spells like Raise, and Cure II, III? I like HoT, but sometimes spike heals are necessary. Basically I'm wondering, in a high level raid, do you think it will be possible to survive with just SCH as healers, or will WHM be necessary?
#2 Jul 25 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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I am fairly sure that it will be an effective healer on its own.

Worst case scenario, I think, high level dungeons will require both White Mage and Scholar.
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#3 Jul 25 2013 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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If they've done this correctly, the ideal situation will be one of each in higher level raids/dungeons.

That way neither one gets the shaft when it comes to getting to participate because of elitism.
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#4 Jul 25 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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boredenough wrote:
I know nothing official about Scholar abilities has been mentioned, other than that it will specialize in HoT, but I am wondering how people think SCH will stack up as a healer against a WHM.

I like playing the healer class, and I loved playing SCH in FFXI, but WHM usually trumped SCH in the healing department.

Do you guys think SCH will have access to spells like Raise, and Cure II, III? I like HoT, but sometimes spike heals are necessary. Basically I'm wondering, in a high level raid, do you think it will be possible to survive with just SCH as healers, or will WHM be necessary?


SCH should have Raise from cross-classing. I doubt Cure II or III will be available to them, but I'm sure they will have reasonable alternatives.

With regards to high level raids, I think it will end up depending on the party size. In the 8-man dungeons, you should probably be able to get away with having only one healer type. In the 24-man dungeons, I would expect to use a combination of the two. Everything should be able to be completed using just one type, but the most efficient setup should contain both.

Edited, Jul 25th 2013 3:23pm by FrozenSherbet
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#5 Jul 25 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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You should expect to see some sort of balance. For the game to put you in a position where you'd rather have Healer A as opposed to Healer B, is bad game design. Undoubtedly, one class will be marginally better than the other, but I can't imagine it'll be game breaking. Even if it was, expect nefts.
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#6 Jul 25 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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For me it really dont matter which is better because I will have both thats the joy of the class/job system. Lvl cnj and arcanist to 50 and you will always have the healer people need.

Like other MMO's its best to have a pure healer and a hot healer in the group for high end events. One for burst dmg control and one to keep people alive in the middle of dmg . I hope they implement this correct :)
#7 Jul 25 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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I have a feeling that Scholar will be sort of like Resto Druid in WoW. Pretty much every heal they had was a HoT (Heal over Time) effect. Some abilities allowed them to burst heal people with certain HoT effects. They ended up being really good at Raid Healing (Healing non tank party members) and giving the tank a constant flow of HP. This apposed to say Holy Paladin, whose skillset makes them excellent tank healers because of their quick and large burst heals. Not to say that I didn't out raid heal everyone I played with while healing the tanks on my Holy Paladin :D.

I'm assuming that Scholar and White Mage will behave similarly together in a party setting to Resto Druid and Holy Paladin. SCH will provide small HoT healing to the general party as they constantly take weak raid-wide damage while WHM will most likely plug themselves into the tanks to keep them alive. These roles synergize quite well with one another. Having constant HoTs on the tank allow for much needed breathing room when they take spike damage and WHM can always pop a Cure II/III/Medica on the party when they are hurting. Single target Raid healing can be quite difficult, especially without some tool such as Beacon of Light, (Holy paladin ability that you could put on someone, mainly a tank, and they would be healed for the same amount when you healed someone else) so WHM will probably have some troubles with it alone. Sure you could spam Medica/Cure III, but Medica costs roughly 10% of your MP. Without major amounts of Piety/MP refresh It doesn't seem very viable. SCH will hopefully provide better party healing while sacrificing larger tank heals.
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#8 Jul 25 2013 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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I like the idea of SCH helping out with HoT for the general party while WHMs focus on the tank. I found that on CNJ in beta, I only let the party HP fall behind when I suddenly had to devote energy away from the tank. This wasn't such a big deal in XI since WHM had access to HoT with Regen. I tried to avoid Medica on CNJ after serious drilling to not use Curaga I/II/etc in XI to avoid pulling hate. I found that after I stopped being afraid to use it, and Stoneskin came into play to keep on the DDs, curing became much more manageable.
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#9 Jul 25 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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I think WHM gets Regen around 40, although I think that is kind of late in my opinion. I like the idea of just putting stoneskin mostly on the DDs since it isn't really efficient to continuously cast on a tank during fights. It might be ok to cast it in between fights, but I'm looking forward to Regen much more.

I hope that they do make SCH more of a Raid healer, that way the two roles can feel different and won't have to be balanced in the same way.

Edited, Jul 25th 2013 7:25pm by DamienSScott
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#10 Jul 25 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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That's like comparing a WoW holy priest with a resto druid. The answer is "they perform acceptably against each other while having their own flavor and mechanics to differentiate gameplay".
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#11 Jul 25 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ruisu wrote:
That's like comparing a WoW holy priest with a resto druid. The answer is "they perform acceptably against each other while having their own flavor and mechanics to differentiate gameplay".


This is pretty much what I was going to say. People who only played FFXI don't really understand how modern MMOs work. I don't mean that in a bad way, FFXI just had a unique way of benching certain classes/jobs.
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#12 Jul 26 2013 at 7:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Ruisu wrote:
That's like comparing a WoW holy priest with a resto druid. The answer is "they perform acceptably against each other while having their own flavor and mechanics to differentiate gameplay".


This is pretty much what I was going to say. People who only played FFXI don't really understand how modern MMOs work. I don't mean that in a bad way, FFXI just had a unique way of benching certain classes/jobs.

That's the one thing I'm really glad Yoshi gets about modern day mmos. If you're favorite class is SCH, you should be able to play SCH and do your job effectively. I have faith that the class will have a spell list that is adequate while being different enough from WHM to be noticeable.

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#13 Aug 02 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Given the new data, I am still having trouble deciding if I want to roll a SCH or WHM!

The SCH cure has a nice barrier effect, and the fairy gets its own 300 potency cure, but WHM still seems like the true healer class with its much higher potency cures.
#14 Aug 02 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Scholar Pet Abilities

Fairy (2 forms, support and healer)
-Whispering Dawn: AoE regen around pet. Potency 100 for 21s. 30s recast.
-Embrace (both forms): 300 potency cure.
-Silent Dawn: Silences for 1s. 40s recast.
-Fey Glow: Increases Spell speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Light.
-Fey Covenant: Increases Magic Defense around fairy by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m
-Fey Light: Increases skill speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Glow.
-Fey Illumination: Increases Cure magic potency around pet by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m.

This was from an earlier post today. Thought it might help.
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#15 Aug 02 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Seems like the scholar is going to play a lil like the BRD from FFXI... running back and forth between dps and mages... could be wrong but that was first to pop to my head...

Looking forward to playing this class ;)

Edited, Aug 2nd 2013 3:41pm by Mmoderator
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#16 Aug 02 2013 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, the abilities look great, I'm just worried if WHM will always be preferred as a Healer if one slot is only available.
#17 Aug 02 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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boredenough wrote:
Yes, the abilities look great, I'm just worried if WHM will always be preferred as a Healer if one slot is only available.


Three things to consider.

One, Healer is going to be a desperate desire for anything the Duty Finder controls, and you do not control who in your duty Finder goes into - therefore you will get your equal share of Pug Parties.

Second - most 8 man runs will likely feature two healers as opposed to one. Therefore in higher levels you'll get two chances and that second chance will be greater as the system tries to diversify repeated roles.

Third - Arcanist has an alternative use in Summoner - meaning you have access to two roles if your LS already fills the one healer slot, which is very unlikely as throughout 1.xx there was typically the desire for two healers if possible, and Bard now falls into a DD Slot, not a healer slot.
#18 Aug 02 2013 at 3:13 PM Rating: Default
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WHM honestly should be always preferred (there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.) SCH is more of a support than a main healer, basically, for the real ****, you'll want both in your group, if you only plan to do the 4 man throwaway dungeons, then well, yeah you can use either/or but given how Arcanist and Scholar is setup, you'll want SCH support for the WHM.
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#19 Aug 02 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Weird. Looking at the abilities we've seen so far, I'd have thought the worry would be that WHM will be obsolete rather than the other way around. Scholar has higher throughput, more mana tools, a wide array of buffs, and a damage absorbing shield built directly into its "main" heal, plus really useful utility in the form of virus and bio. The only downside I see is the possible vulnerability of pets vs being completely self contained.
#20 Aug 02 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
WHM honestly should be always preferred (there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.) SCH is more of a support than a main healer, basically, for the real sh*t, you'll want both in your group, if you only plan to do the 4 man throwaway dungeons, then well, yeah you can use either/or but given how Arcanist and Scholar is setup, you'll want SCH support for the WHM.


In FFXI that makes sense because white mages have nothing to fall back on besides healing while scholars are multi talented.

But FFXIV is a different animal. Every class and job should fit in one of three roles: healer, damage, and tank. While there can be variations (e. g. Gladiators are great at tanking a single mega-boss while Warriors specialize in tanking multiple opponents) they should be adequate to perform their assigned function in their own way. There's no room for lol jobs in this game.

In other words, if white mages are always preferred for every healing situation, then there's something wrong with scholars.
#21 Aug 02 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm actually worried about WHM's ability to restore MP. THM/BLM has MP restorative skills. ACN/SCH/SMN also have skills to replenish MP. As far as I can see all those skills can't be used by CON/WHM and they have none of their own.

Out of all the DoM, WHM seems like the one most likely to struggle with MP even with the chance to cast instant, no MP Cures.
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#22 Aug 02 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Considering end-game involves two tanks and two healers in a Full party of 8, there is no point in making these debates on which job is better.
#23 Aug 02 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
WHM honestly should be always preferred (there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.) SCH is more of a support than a main healer, basically, for the real sh*t, you'll want both in your group, if you only plan to do the 4 man throwaway dungeons, then well, yeah you can use either/or but given how Arcanist and Scholar is setup, you'll want SCH support for the WHM.


In FFXI that makes sense because white mages have nothing to fall back on besides healing while scholars are multi talented.

But FFXIV is a different animal. Every class and job should fit in one of three roles: healer, damage, and tank. While there can be variations (e. g. Gladiators are great at tanking a single mega-boss while Warriors specialize in tanking multiple opponents) they should be adequate to perform their assigned function in their own way. There's no room for lol jobs in this game.

In other words, if white mages are always preferred for every healing situation, then there's something wrong with scholars.


Every one of Arcanist (Scholar base abilities) and Scholars/Fey's abilities points toward Support rather than flatout healer. This is why I say you'd realistically want both, there would be nothing wrong with Scholar if people choose WHM mostly because WHM is through and through designed to be a healer, Scholar is not, just take a lot at the abilities and compare Conjurer versus Arcanist as that's their base classes.

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#24 Aug 02 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
Every one of Arcanist (Scholar base abilities) and Scholars/Fey's abilities points toward Support rather than flatout healer. This is why I say you'd realistically want both, there would be nothing wrong with Scholar if people choose WHM mostly because WHM is through and through designed to be a healer, Scholar is not, just take a lot at the abilities and compare Conjurer versus Arcanist as that's their base classes.


I want to say you're trolling, but considering your posts the past few months it's about par for the course so I'll just assume you're blind and can't read and compare.

They get:

  • Resurrection at level 22, which is 10 levels higher than WHM but also doesn't have the built-in "doesn't work in combat" restriction (WHM's comes off at level 28).
  • A 300 potency cure which is granted 100 potency less than a WHM's but it also has a built-in cureskin (Afflatus Solace/what the **** thing is from other MMOs/etc.) that is for the full amount of the heal and if the heal crits it's *twice* the amount of the heal. All in all this makes the actual cures a 600 potency that splits into re-active and pro-active healing (and that's the absolute *best* kind as a healer) -- and this is BEFORE it crits. Superior, by far.
  • A 150 potency AoE cure that's only 50 less than Medica II and it also gives off a shield on the target equal to the amount cured. Again, you're looking at really a 300 potency AoE heal (stronger than a WHM's already) that, once again, is BEFORE it crits. WHM's Medica II tacks on a 100 potency Regen that may be decent but will ultimately end up being a wash between the shield and the regen. Equal here.
  • A copy of Esuna, except that Scholar's can't proc the next one to be free (big deal...). WHM wins only due to the proc chance to make it free.
  • Has the ability to put up a ground targetted ability that reduces the damage taken by anyone who enters by 10% for 15 seconds (30 second cooldown), which also has a chance to make the AoE heal free to cast. WHM has *NOTHING* like this, SCH win.
  • An instant heal for 20% of a target's health during Aetherflow (and considering everything seems to be built up on that I'd expect a high uptime on it). The best WHM has is Stoneskin which is only really nice for the pull. I imagine cost will be prohibitive (like stoneskin is) to prevent spamming of this. Equal.


So, a single target heal, an AoE heal, a raise, a status removal ability, and the ability to reduce damage on potentially the entire group if need be on a short cooldown, and finally an instant heal that's % based if needed for emergencies. This isn't taking into considering their fairy companion either as that could also help alleviate healing woes (I honestly sincerely doubt this but we will see).

.....

So....what is it exactly that WHM has that SCH doesn't?

Regen? Regen heals for absolute sh*t amounts because they're afraid to buff it back to 1.0 amounts where it healed more than you could cure in a period of time. Regen was recently buffed to 150 potency (I guess in an attempt to make it somewhat useful), but that's still more of a single target thing.

Benediction? Sure, nice in an "OH SH--" moment but if it comes down to that you've potentially lost the fight anyway (whereas the shields from Scholar could have prevent someone dipping that low to begin with).

No, what I see is basically the difference between a TBC/WotLK Holy Priest (White Mage) and a Disc Priest (Scholar). One is aimed at reacting to damage and the other is aimed at being proactive with shields. Both are literally equal when it comes down to total damage taken and healed, and that's honestly how it should be.

Scholar is *HARDLY* "a support" role. That list of abilities shows it's built to heal and do it damned well.

No, if anything, looking at the toolkits and how they heal I laugh because White Mage now heals like SCH did (has the highest Regen spell, chance to proc free spells = stratagem charges) and Scholar as the WHM (S H I E L D S). Remember that once Afflatus Solace came into play WHM blew everyone else away

Edited, Aug 2nd 2013 9:14pm by Viertel
#25 Aug 02 2013 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Considering I know very little about the mage classes so far; I'm glad to see a thread on the subject. I was curious about something though. It seemed to me that AoE's and losing hate to DD's wasn't a constant concern for our healers in my parties during phase 3. That the priority was the tank and any DD who wanted to off-tank usually was doing a disservice to the group. My experience is limited to beta so I can't say for sure, but I thought you guys would be able to comment. Personally, I'm liking what I see so far from all the new mage classes. I hope all classes can coexist without min/maxers claiming one is better than the other.
#26 Aug 02 2013 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Considering I know very little about the mage classes so far; I'm glad to see a thread on the subject. I was curious about something though. It seemed to me that AoE's and losing hate to DD's wasn't a constant concern for our healers in my parties during phase 3. That the priority was the tank and any DD who wanted to off-tank usually was doing a disservice to the group. My experience is limited to beta so I can't say for sure, but I thought you guys would be able to comment. Personally, I'm liking what I see so far from all the new mage classes. I hope all classes can coexist without min/maxers claiming one is better than the other.


Healing threat will only be an issue at the start of a pull. 1 point healed is 0.5 points of threat, and in a group X threat generated by a heal is split amongst Y targets. As long as you get one or two Flashes/Overpowers it's virtually impossible for the healers to pull off of you (unless they're nuking as Stone had some WEIRD threat going on in P3).

Plus, from what they've managed to figure out Flash's threat is based off of the weapon damage, STR, and Determination of the tank so it'll scale with level to keep up the pace with bigger heals. Once you double that with the threat stance at level 40 (which is a 2x multiplier) it makes healing threat even more a non-issue in a fight. In the event there's a throat stab/threat wiping move there's always Provoke (unlike FFXI's this one sets up to highest enmity +1) so it's fairly easy to keep it off of the healers.

This is all with a Gladiator tank, obviously. A Marauder can cross Flash if they want and virtually ensure threat's his, and slot Provoke as well for threat wiping moves to get back up quickly. Healer threat looks to be a non-issue to anyone that reads their tooltips.


Edited, Aug 2nd 2013 11:18pm by Viertel
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