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Will powerleveling be allowed in 2.0?Follow

#52 Jul 25 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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silverhope wrote:
Demonadrastos wrote:
IMFW wrote:
I hope that isnt in it, that stuff is so cheap, **** i can not stand people running in and start fight the monster im fighting, i didn ask for help so please dont give it, i enjoy being challenged!

^ This many times over. The moment I saw some attack a mob I was going for, I back off right away, simply because it annoys the **** out of me when someone joins in on my fights when I can handle it just fine. I find it will be rare to have one of those moments when you are soloing a strong mob who has you against the ropes to suddenly turn it around(or get your *** handed to you.) Also during beta, I had people higher lvl then me following me thinking they are helping me with kills when they were just annoying the crap out of me. Eventually I log out out of annoyance.


Im sorry but this is a MMO and many people like to help others. If you want to be left alone thats what RPGs are for. SE made the game so people can help eachother and still get some credit. Them helping dosent hurt ur exp any. As a healer I like helping random people if I see there health alittle low. Are you telling me that I should just keep walking because some people have a problem with help?

On the flip side if im on a DPS class and I need to do a quest and I notice others aswell I will join in and help kill things with them thus making it faster for all of us.

Also I wanna add that its horrible and wrong to just up and leave when someone wants to help you. Many times this happened to me as a cnj and than die because someone thought I was stealing there kill.




Edited, Jul 25th 2013 5:38pm by silverhope



Ok let me be clear if you see my name Maxximus Gold and im fighting a monster 4 to 5 levels above me im not looking for help, im looking to challenge my self, my skill and my gear, if i scream for help by all means help out if you want, but if im not asking for help just keep on walking.
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#53 Jul 25 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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Man, some need to get over others simply helping. Did you need it? Probably not. Are open world mobs actually challenging? Only if you're grossly underleveled (or being a **** thinking every mob in a given vicinity is yours to gather/AoE). The rest just kind of reminds me of the type of folks in XI who felt sitting around LFG for hours for the perfect 6-man party was the epitome of gaming. That doesn't exist in XIV, or at least isn't the primary method people will go about leveling. And that's a good thing. Leveling itself will probably teach little in terms of boss mechanics or even how to play in (good) parties. To that end, I don't see PLing being as much of a "problem" in this game compared to XI short of people finding that a lowbie being in a party with someone killing a level 50+ mob gives more EXP than the lowbie killing their respective range. And that's something a patch could easily fix if SE genuinely cares, because it's rather likely the grinding doesn't do much for the person at 50.
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#54 Jul 25 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Default
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Mopdaddy wrote:
Demonadrastos wrote:
IMFW wrote:
I hope that isnt in it, that stuff is so cheap, **** i can not stand people running in and start fight the monster im fighting, i didn ask for help so please dont give it, i enjoy being challenged!

^ This many times over. The moment I saw some attack a mob I was going for, I back off right away, simply because it annoys the **** out of me when someone joins in on my fights when I can handle it just fine. I find it will be rare to have one of those moments when you are soloing a strong mob who has you against the ropes to suddenly turn it around(or get your *** handed to you.) Also during beta, I had people higher lvl then me following me thinking they are helping me with kills when they were just annoying the crap out of me. Eventually I log out out of annoyance.

I have to seriously ask why do you play MMOs?


I have to ask why do you talk to me when you have nothing to say? I play how i like to play, i enjoy challenging my self and testing out my gear that i work hard to craft. Keep your nose and your help out of my business unless i ask for help, is that hard to get?
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#55 Jul 25 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Im not trying to be a sour or nothing, its just a major pet peeve of mine in video games and life, i dont like being helped if i didnt ask for help. I just really enjoying fighting monsters 3 to 4 levels higher then my current level, im not looking for the xp or easy loot or to kill it faster, im just looking for a tough fight.
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#56 Jul 25 2013 at 11:17 PM Rating: Good
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And people aren't telepaths. If someone "helps" then ask them not to the next time and carry on your way. Being selfish and stomping your foot because a passerby dared to be generous just reeks of immaturity. That mob will respawn in a minute or so if there aren't dozens around already. Meanwhile, in the time it takes for someone to stop and ask if someone needs help and for the person to reply, if they even can, could be enough to kill them. You then get one person sad they couldn't help and potentially another ****** that someone just stood there and did nothing, costing them time and money in repairs.
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#57 Jul 25 2013 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
And people aren't telepaths. If someone "helps" then ask them not to the next time and carry on your way. Being selfish and stomping your foot because a passerby dared to be generous just reeks of immaturity. That mob will respawn in a minute or so if there aren't dozens around already. Meanwhile, in the time it takes for someone to stop and ask if someone needs help and for the person to reply, if they even can, could be enough to kill them. You then get one person sad they couldn't help and potentially another ****** that someone just stood there and did nothing, costing them time and money in repairs.



Whats funny is thats what i do, i tell the person and nothing bad ever happens, everyone gets it and is cool with it, seems like more people are making a bigger deal here then in the game.
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#58 Jul 26 2013 at 12:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've found that, most times, people aren't helping so much as they are simply killing common mobs for quests. For example, if you have worked a mob down to its last hit point and then someone else steps in and kills that mob, you both get credit for the kill. Granted, that's not always the reason, but it has been my experience that it usually is. I don't own the zones or the mobs in them, so if someone wants to kill 3 squirrels amd 3 ladybugs faster by "helping" me, I don't feel that it has any effect on my game experience. Even if it did bother me, I know that I don't own anything in the zone, so it doesn't matter anyway. If I want to kill things alone, I will go play skyrim.
#59 Jul 26 2013 at 3:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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IMFW wrote:
Ok let me be clear if you see my name Maxximus Gold and im fighting a monster 4 to 5 levels above me im not looking for help, im looking to challenge my self, my skill and my gear, if i scream for help by all means help out if you want, but if im not asking for help just keep on walking.


It's interesting to see people that actually dislike the general community actions of FF MMOs. I suppose it takes all kinds.
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#60 Jul 26 2013 at 6:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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KingAlkaiser wrote:
If people 49 levels above you are allowed to kill things while you gain 100% of the xp it would really discourage me playing game again. I can not tolerate cheating or exploits like this it ruins the game in several ways.

anyone know any information about partying with higher level players? honestly i do not mind level sync its perfect thing to do as long as people actually play the dam game.

P.S- I am also not a fan of what abyssea did to ff11 as well but that is off topic ( they could of done it a lor better )

Edited, Jul 25th 2013 11:56pm by KingAlkaiser


I exp'd with my Husband in P3, he was a level 20 Archer and I was level 10ish CNJ. We were running around killing my hunt log mobs. We experienced 2 things of note.

1st, Depending on the level of the mob i received little to no exp for the actual kill. ex. level 9 Opo Opo, I would get about 10exp (if any) and he would get about 30exp.
2nd, because we were partied up and I'm assuming because he was higher level, both the Opo's and the swarms linked with themselves and each other. If I dropped party these mobs would change and not link

I don't remember there being an option at the time for him to level sync. Might just not have been implemented in P3.

Edited, Jul 26th 2013 8:50am by Deathbuyer
#61 Jul 26 2013 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's funny that this is such a big deal again, when they basically nerfed over world mob xp into the ground. Quests, FATEs, and dungeons are where Yoshi wants people to go, and while I will miss and enjoyed camp parties in XI, I'll move on and play the current game. And you can't really PL in those 3 situations.

If someone is killing your mob in an open world setting, 99% of the time it's because it's a quest mob. If it's higher level than you and you're killing it just because, maybe YOU'RE the one in an area you shouldn't be yet taking quest mobs someone else could be appropriately killing. How's that for a reversal?
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#62 Jul 26 2013 at 7:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Anakte wrote:
I think it's funny that this is such a big deal again, when they basically nerfed over world mob xp into the ground. Quests, FATEs, and dungeons are where Yoshi wants people to go, and while I will miss and enjoyed camp parties in XI, I'll move on and play the current game. And you can't really PL in those 3 situations.

If someone is killing your mob in an open world setting, 99% of the time it's because it's a quest mob. If it's higher level than you and you're killing it just because, maybe YOU'RE the one in an area you shouldn't be yet taking quest mobs someone else could be appropriately killing. How's that for a reversal?


this so much this! There is no reason to grind out exp in open world the only reason to kill things are for quests and hunt logs. If someone gets mad over you helping than they can be mad but if im doing a hunt log or quest im gonna tag/kill everyone I see so I can get my quest/log done asap. Thus getting more exp per min. This mentality of NO THIS IS MINE.. has to go. We are a community, and our actions should refelct this.
#63 Jul 26 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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IMFW wrote:
Ok let me be clear if you see my name Maxximus Gold and im fighting a monster 4 to 5 levels above me im not looking for help, im looking to challenge my self, my skill and my gear, if i scream for help by all means help out if you want, but if im not asking for help just keep on walking.

Keep in mind your play is affecting the other player's play when this kind of situation happens. Mobs may respawn fast in this game, but they are still limited. If you fight a tougher mob by yourself, that fight is going to take longer than a typical fight. This means that it will take longer for the monster to respawn, and thus will make it so it takes other players longer to reach their objectives and move on.

"I was there first" is not a sufficient justification for slowing down the progress of other players, particularly since this is an area where the game design has attempted to eliminate the need to "be there first".
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#64 Jul 26 2013 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Anakte wrote:
I think it's funny that this is such a big deal again, when they basically nerfed over world mob xp into the ground. Quests, FATEs, and dungeons are where Yoshi wants people to go, and while I will miss and enjoyed camp parties in XI, I'll move on and play the current game. And you can't really PL in those 3 situations.

If someone is killing your mob in an open world setting, 99% of the time it's because it's a quest mob. If it's higher level than you and you're killing it just because, maybe YOU'RE the one in an area you shouldn't be yet taking quest mobs someone else could be appropriately killing. How's that for a reversal?


Thanks for this reply. I can appreciate what you are saying here. Your adding some specific examples to the general theme of this thread, which seems to be "PL is no longer an issue".
#65 Jul 26 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow okay IMFW I really feel sorry for you when the game starts. Its gonna be a free for all and everyone is going to be attacking everything that moves in the starter zones. Also if you want to fight things solo then don't go to any populated areas, if I happen to see you fighting I might just pop a few shots, leave and come back and do it again, cause I am an *** like that, and it would amuse me for a moment.

Now back on topic. I think the days of Power-leveling are pretty well over. Level Sync will help stop PLing in fates. Outside fates XP isnt all that great. This is really a non issue with the way they have it currently set up. I am sure some people will figure out a way to PL themselves but there is nothing that says you have to do the same.
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#66 Jul 26 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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IMFW wrote:
I hope that isnt in it, that stuff is so cheap, **** i can not stand people running in and start fight the monster im fighting, i didn ask for help so please dont give it, i enjoy being challenged!



I cant believe all the stuff people can make up about me, off of one post, im a big team player i enjoy fighting monsters with my friends, but some times i like to fight by my self, then i get a few people flameing me with a bunch of smart *** comments, that i dont need or care for, if you dont like the way i play then dont play like me, if you want to talk to me please dont assume or imply i do something when i dont, in life its not what you know its what you can prove.
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#67 Jul 26 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
One of the things I actually liked about Guild Wars 2 was how anyone could attack anything.

It's a shift from the old days of gaming, when EVERYTHING was a competition, right down to the ability to claim a monster to get the exp from it. However, times have changed... once you remove the need to "compete" for open-world monsters, there are not as many reasons to seriously get angry over other people jumping in.

In other words, the open world of gameplay is becoming less competitive and more cooperative. I'm a fan of that, but I know there are gamers who will really miss the constant competition.
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#68 Jul 26 2013 at 12:49 PM Rating: Default
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IMFW wrote:
I cant believe all the stuff people can make up about me, off of one post, im a big team player i enjoy fighting monsters with my friends, but some times i like to fight by my self, then i get a few people flameing me with a bunch of smart *** comments, that i dont need or care for, if you dont like the way i play then dont play like me, if you want to talk to me please dont assume or imply i do something when i dont, in life its not what you know its what you can prove.


If you happened to be on my server and I found you in game, I'd probably follow you around, "helping" you kill mobs for a while. Then I would get bored and craft you some HQ Underpants.

Besides, this whole point is moot considering that overworld mobs are so easy. If you want more of a "challenge" just do levequests on +4. No one can attack those mobs unless they are in your party. Problem solved.

Edited, Jul 26th 2013 3:16pm by DamienSScott
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#69 Jul 26 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
In other words, the open world of gameplay is becoming less competitive and more cooperative. I'm a fan of that, but I know there are gamers who will really miss the constant competition.


There's PvP for that Smiley: wink
#70 Jul 26 2013 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
Thayos wrote:
In other words, the open world of gameplay is becoming less competitive and more cooperative. I'm a fan of that, but I know there are gamers who will really miss the constant competition.


There's PvP for that Smiley: wink


Not quite yet there isnt.
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#71 Jul 26 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
One of the things I actually liked about Guild Wars 2 was how anyone could attack anything.

It's a shift from the old days of gaming, when EVERYTHING was a competition, right down to the ability to claim a monster to get the exp from it. However, times have changed... once you remove the need to "compete" for open-world monsters, there are not as many reasons to seriously get angry over other people jumping in.

In other words, the open world of gameplay is becoming less competitive and more cooperative. I'm a fan of that, but I know there are gamers who will really miss the constant competition.


I was outside of town with level 1 and there was competition for mobs. Couldn't chain5 them because they didn't pop back fast enough.

Then I went out another gate and there was no one there to compete with. I have no idea why that happened.

In FATE the mobs died so fast I barely could target them in time, as a pug and thm.

As an arc, I could target and kill very fast.
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#72 Jul 26 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
Man, some need to get over others simply helping. Did you need it? Probably not. Are open world mobs actually challenging? Only if you're grossly underleveled (or being a **** thinking every mob in a given vicinity is yours to gather/AoE). The rest just kind of reminds me of the type of folks in XI who felt sitting around LFG for hours for the perfect 6-man party was the epitome of gaming. That doesn't exist in XIV, or at least isn't the primary method people will go about leveling. And that's a good thing. Leveling itself will probably teach little in terms of boss mechanics or even how to play in (good) parties. To that end, I don't see PLing being as much of a "problem" in this game compared to XI short of people finding that a lowbie being in a party with someone killing a level 50+ mob gives more EXP than the lowbie killing their respective range. And that's something a patch could easily fix if SE genuinely cares, because it's rather likely the grinding doesn't do much for the person at 50.


I rather hope that isn't the case. I think the whole point of leveling is to teach you how to play the game. I don't think it needs to be belabored with a huge grind, but it definitely has to introduce you to the skills your character has control over.

I think the reason people get upset over powerleveling is that they end up working with teammates that don't even know the basics of their role. Without that minimum understanding, a boss fight would be hopeless.
#73 Jul 26 2013 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Grandmomma wrote:
In FATE the mobs died so fast I barely could target them in time, as a pug and thm.

As an arc, I could target and kill very fast.

As a caster, I stand between the battle and the spawning point (if there's a road or something that the mobs are "coming" from) and start casting on one as soon as it pops. If my spell hits and no one else is starting to go for it, I cast again. If someone else is going for it, I immediately tab to a new target and start casting on that one instead. You get ranked by the amount you contribute, as a caster your damage comes after a cast time instead of on button press, so that's what I came up with to help the best I could, contribute solid damage, and I almost always got a top ranked xp reward.

As melee, it was a bit more chaotic, especially when I was trying to hit positional abilities, but I found the same basic strategy worked, stay on the outskirts of where the battle was, and start laying into whatever was near me.. if things were dying too fast, just start targeting them as they pop instead of the ones already in the thick of the mess.

Archer, yea extremely easy. Benefit of range, benefit of instant abilities, FATE beasts.
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#74 Jul 26 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
[I think the reason people get upset over powerleveling is that they end up working with teammates that don't even know the basics of their role. Without that minimum understanding, a boss fight would be hopeless.

There were still bad players in XI even when it took some people a year+ to get their first job to 75. Even in XIV's case, I don't see how general EXPing teaches a healer how to heal a group when their style for killing mobs ideally doesn't involve casting a single cure. On the other hand, they may have some common sense and decent situational awareness, having read tooltips on their abilities and using them wisely when they finally step into a group scenario. There's basically no way you can predict a stranger is good, as even a healer decked out in dungeon gear at a specific level could've just greed lotted it on a DPS job earlier. Assuming PLing to be the root of lacking skill because of this just strikes me as silly, and I have no doubt when some here against it are on their third+ job, they'll be wishing for a way for things to be a little faster.



Anyway, I got a nice passive aggressive PM from a certain someone for basically telling them to chillax over people daring to help. I like to function off the belief that MMOs should be designed for as many people to experience as much of the content as possible instead of defaulting to stuff like prestige gear and ultimately segregating players who have and don't have things. A consequence of being more laid back about this kind of stuff means things might happen that certain personalities will be displeased with. Anyone getting ****** over people being well-meaning will earn my scorn regardless of how much of a righteous prick they perceive me because of it. The alternative of implementing systems that frown upon players interacting and helping one another just simply seems far worse as someone who played these games when they were The Thing(tm). Instances still exist if you truly crave an isolated environment, but I also see that devolving into the same old boring ho-hum of ranged class superiority if soloing is your thing. And really, people getting angry over trash mobs is dumb. There are no dibs, either. Maybe some time post-launch once people are more spread out someone could find some little isolated corner of the world and solo well into obscurity, but I also feel that's short-changing the overall game and potential strengths of community play. Granted, I'm not blind to the shortcomings of interacting with others, either.
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#75 Jul 26 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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I donno about calling Archers FATE beasts. More like FATE annoyances. If they take hate from a tank the monster is constantly moving and there's virtually no way, pre15 for any melee to engage upon it reliably, yet they insist on kiting the monster rather then letting the healers who are trying to get participation heal them up. (Glad Stone now comes default with Weight effect.)

I'm sure the higher level FATES won't be so easy to kite out. Then again, by those levels the tanks have better tools to keep hate with.
#76 Jul 26 2013 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. ****, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.
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#77 Jul 26 2013 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. ****, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.


It's pretty normal for bosses to be immune to snares and roots, that tends to take care of ridiculous kiting on bosses that are not meant to be kited.
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#78 Jul 26 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Seriha wrote:
We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. ****, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.


It's pretty normal for bosses to be immune to snares and roots, that tends to take care of ridiculous kiting on bosses that are not meant to be kited.

Wasn't always the case in XI, sadly. There's also pathing (some people exploited fences and other terrain to trick mobs into taking u-turns) and the mob's actual ******** Some having no ranged attacks at all, or being limited to TP use, let people string things along further. Could also consider movement speed gear and abilities a factor, too. Some even outright speedhacked to do the **** they did.

The consequences to RDM were still pretty harsh in the long term, though, and the job honestly hasn't recovered from the mix of neglect and resistance to suggestions for fear of recreating those old days.
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#79 Jul 27 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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On terms of kiting, unlike in XI where you could run something completely across the zone... There is a restrictive mechanic in XIV that prevents a player from moving the target too far out of their natural spawn area. If you do... and this includes FATEs, you will lose aggro (not bad if you didn't want to fight in the first place). As well as, the Target will instantly full heal upon returning to their spawn location. Needless to say, Archers and DoM (current main ranged attackers) will have to restrict their kiting... Said person will have a ton of ****** off players if they accidentally run say ex. Lazy Laurence to his reset border... after he's been taken down to 10%.
#80 Jul 27 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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DamienSScott wrote:

Besides, this whole point is moot considering that overworld mobs are so easy. If you want more of a "challenge" just do levequests on +4. No one can attack those mobs unless they are in your party. Problem solved.

Edited, Jul 26th 2013 3:16pm by DamienSScott


This. Why anyone would want to spend more than half their playing time solo in what's supposed to be a teamwork oriented genre I'll never understand but yes, levequests are there to take you right to the top.
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#81 Jul 27 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
One of the things I actually liked about Guild Wars 2 was how anyone could attack anything.

It's a shift from the old days of gaming, when EVERYTHING was a competition, right down to the ability to claim a monster to get the exp from it. However, times have changed... once you remove the need to "compete" for open-world monsters, there are not as many reasons to seriously get angry over other people jumping in.

In other words, the open world of gameplay is becoming less competitive and more cooperative. I'm a fan of that, but I know there are gamers who will really miss the constant competition.


Speaking of competition, remember those flame wars years ago in the XI forums arguing back and forth whether or not using provoke to pull was unfair? I think ARR is going in the right direction.
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#82 Jul 27 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
One of the things I actually liked about Guild Wars 2 was how anyone could attack anything.

It's a shift from the old days of gaming, when EVERYTHING was a competition, right down to the ability to claim a monster to get the exp from it. However, times have changed... once you remove the need to "compete" for open-world monsters, there are not as many reasons to seriously get angry over other people jumping in.

In other words, the open world of gameplay is becoming less competitive and more cooperative. I'm a fan of that, but I know there are gamers who will really miss the constant competition.


I'm a teamwork centric player but there's nothing wrong with competitiveness either. I suppose it's a balancing act. In XI I put in a lot of time solo to gain some sought after EX/Rare loot. There was a sense of accomplishment when I would beat out a RNG and THF duo as a RDM/THF on any given NM. That kind of smirk you get when you get drop no money can buy.

Contrary to how some of my posts may sound there is room for individual accomplishment in MMO. And it's highly rewarding in a psychological sense. There are better ways to make me feel I am part of a social environment than to simply allow Jane Anyone to jump in on my claim and grab credit for what I almost killed.

And players will get angry for whatever. So we move from "you took my claim" to "why didn't anyone jump in and help me". We're simply removing one extreme expectation for another. Suddenly I will become responsible for the the player who bit off more than he/she could chew because I happened to be passing by. Extreme perhaps. But not unlikely.


Edited, Jul 27th 2013 3:05pm by ShindaUsagi
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#83 Jul 27 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Contrary to how some of my posts may sound there is room for individual accomplishment in MMO. And it's highly rewarding in a psychological sense. There are better ways to make me feel I am part of a social environment than to simply allow Jane Anyone to jump in on my claim and grab credit for what I almost killed.

I'll agree there's room, but emphasis shouldn't be on the expense of others. GW2's achievement system has gone through a bit of a metamorphosis since the game's launch, but right now I think it's a decent system of "things to do" that an individual might chase. Personally, I'd never flesh out the PvP category, but stuff like, "Kill 10/100/500/1000 spider type enemies" is something workable, even if a bit grindy. I think tracking what FATEs we've participated in would also be fun, with little rewards tied to completing categories in zones. Fair access is generally what I shoot for.

Quote:
And players will get angry for whatever. So we move from "you took my claim" to "why didn't anyone jump in and help me". We're simply removing one extreme expectation for another. Suddenly I will become responsible for the the player who bit off more than he/she could chew because I happened to be passing by. Extreme perhaps. But not unlikely.

I touched on this a bit, but I also think there's something to be said about willfully biting off more than you can chew. If you're willfully engaging mobs levels above you, the possibility of death should be on your mind. As is, people have a higher potential of being able to help with XIV's system compared to XI. In turn, should they be willing and aware (the telepathy I also mentioned includes all kind of personal intent), they have the means to step in instead of waiting for someone to CFH (if they ever did, because CFH meant loot/EXP loss). If anything, XI's system encouraged watching people die, as you could then snipe a weakened foe for profit. MPK was also quite real, especially at HNMs like Fafnir/Nidhoog and Tiamat.
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#84 Jul 27 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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ShindaUsagi wrote:
And players will get angry for whatever. So we move from "you took my claim" to "why didn't anyone jump in and help me". We're simply removing one extreme expectation for another.

The good thing about the "extreme" to which FFXIV's pendulum has swung is that its a situation that resolves itself much more quickly. In FFXI, two groups fighting over claims could **** heads for hours, depending on how stubborn the players are. In the case of FFXIV, a player who didn't get outside help will simply die (if they truly needed the help). Problem solved!
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#85 Jul 27 2013 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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IMFW wrote:
Im not trying to be a sour or nothing, its just a major pet peeve of mine in video games and life, i dont like being helped if i didnt ask for help..


no time like the present to get the @#%^ over it.


edit for topical material: the system as it is now makes a lot more sense from a healthy gameplay perspective than, say, XI's "I claimed this crab so you can't hit it unless i call for help and lose all rewards for killing it" system.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 1:39am by Llester
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#86 Jul 28 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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This Thread has helped me change my mind about helping/being helped. I'm all for it now.
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#87 Jul 28 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. ****, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.


I think you forgot the prime reason for this exploit, Utsusemi abuse. I'm hoping that when NIN is announced that shadows no longer ruin the NIN class by making them some psuedo tank or giving gimped shadows so classes can kite forever.

Edit: All those excuses you made about RDM are b.s. and you know it. RDM was working as intended, but people like you wanted more from a class that was supposed to be average. The problem is average wasn't good enough and many jobs fell victim to that reality. Nobody on the FFXIV forums wishes to hear your emo rants about why SE screwed over RDM in FFXI.



Edited, Jul 28th 2013 6:22pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#88 Jul 28 2013 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I think you forgot the prime reason for this exploit, Utsusemi abuse. I'm hoping that when NIN is announced that shadows no longer ruin the NIN class by making them some psuedo tank or giving gimped shadows so classes can kite forever.


I think a Decoy move would be more suitable from a balance perspective. If they aren't considered tanks (and I hope that they aren't) this would give them a decent "get out of jail free" card. If they do end up with shadows it will probably end up on a 2-3 minute cooldown and only avoid a couple attacks.
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#89 Jul 28 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Hey guys, I have this awesome idea for a class. Let's make it mediocre to everything and make all mobs that matter immune to things it does so nobody will invite it to anything."
That's what happened to RDM. The class that was never a melee due to lacking tools, the class that faded into obscurity as a third-rate healer once colibri went out of style, the class you'd never take over a BLM or eventually SCH for nuking, the class that would never tank again after a blanket adjustment to resisted debuffs offered the coup de grace to their alleged primary toolkit, the class nobody wanted in Abyssea, the class that eventually brought no unique procs to Voidwatch, and even now doesn't offer anything unique to Adoulin content beyond a slightly higher MACC to debuffs that do land.

Utsu helped in some solos, but wasn't required for all. Nevermind how many other classes were ignored for their own soloing. Jack Of All Trades, Suck At Them All does not and will never work in an MMO. So, rest assured I'll be there telling SE not to @#%^ up RDM when it's on the table for XIV, but don't even dare try to trivialize DoT/Kite tactics as a strength of ranged classes across games and an important factor for balancing content. XI may have brought its own unique conditions with no leashing or Utsu, but the rest is still very real with no shortage of people putting down RDM in the past because of those things.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 11:06pm by Seriha
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#90 Jul 28 2013 at 9:15 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:

The class that was never a melee due to lacking tools, the class that faded into obscurity as a third-rate healer once colibri went out of style, the class you'd never take over a BLM or eventually SCH for nuking, the class that would never tank again after a blanket adjustment to resisted debuffs offered the coup de grace to their alleged primary toolkit, the class nobody wanted in Abyssea, the class that eventually brought no unique procs to Voidwatch, and even now doesn't offer anything unique to Adoulin content beyond a slightly higher MACC to debuffs that do land.

Utsu helped in some solos, but wasn't required for all. Nevermind how many other classes were ignored for their own soloing. Jack Of All Trades, Suck At Them All does not and will never work in an MMO. So, rest assured I'll be there telling SE not to @#%^ up RDM when it's on the table for XIV, but don't even dare try to trivialize DoT/Kite tactics as a strength of ranged classes across games and an important factor for balancing content. XI may have brought its own unique conditions with no leashing or Utsu, but the rest is still very real with no shortage of people putting down RDM in the past because of those things.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 11:06pm by Seriha


RDM wasn't needed to melee, that's what BLU was for... RDM v2. I'll agree that RDM lost a purpose to be in the party, but I don't agree with you on why it happened. You have this crazy conspiracy theory that SE screwed over the class just because a few RDM's abused the game mechanics. Instead of just making mobs resist the 50th Bio II cast, they rather just nerf the class. Look at FFXIV today, there is basically 1 healer class and 1 healing JOB. I'm not counting SCH from I heard either. If RDM does come to FF14, it will be very similiar to WHM and BLM. Heck BLM already has our Convert ability. Aero spells are like Dia/Bio from FFXI too. Utsesuemi was utilized more often than you like to admit. The best solos were always done with /nin. Later on things changed a bit, but that was after lv75 cap anyways.
#91 Jul 28 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh how much fun I had watching a RDM spend 5 hours soloing Narasimha in Labyrinth of Onzozo while EXPing back in the day. I hope whatever he was going for was worth the Shihei XD.

If they brought RDM to FFXIV maybe it would revolve around en-spells.. oh wait, no elemental resistances.. maybe they will apply debuffs? SCH seems to be taking the most likely healing role that they would have with Regen based healing. I just don't really see a place for it unless they come up with a new mechanic for them.
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#92 Jul 28 2013 at 9:40 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Seriha wrote:
We've both seen what RDM did to XI's endgame with unchecked DoT/Kite tactics. Hopefully XIV doesn't permit such stupidity on anything meaningful, as the inevitable outcome tends to mean a class suffers in the future because of it. But when I mention ranged superiority, that extends into other games, too, where melees simply lack the option to kite indefinitely while doing damage or mitigating it enough to do what they want to. ****, I'd probably be giddy if DEF/VIT is actually done right this time around.


I think you forgot the prime reason for this exploit, Utsusemi abuse. I'm hoping that when NIN is announced that shadows no longer ruin the NIN class by making them some psuedo tank or giving gimped shadows so classes can kite forever.

Edit: All those excuses you made about RDM are b.s. and you know it. RDM was working as intended, but people like you wanted more from a class that was supposed to be average. The problem is average wasn't good enough and many jobs fell victim to that reality. Nobody on the FFXIV forums wishes to hear your emo rants about why SE screwed over RDM in FFXI.



Edited, Jul 28th 2013 6:22pm by ShadowedgeFFXI

The problem wasn't ninja having shadows, the problem was shadows being subbed. Had it been only sub-able by classes that don't have ranged or self heal abilities it would have leveled the playing field a bit for solo ability between melee and magic users. There should be different types of tanks strong in one area but weaker than others in other areas. I don't want to see NInja be a tank period in ARR, but a damage dealer.

Supposed to be average wouldn't cut it XI because of the highly forced grouping and stricter subbed restrictions. Average to above average works just fine in ARR with classes though.
#93 Jul 28 2013 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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We're veering off topic for sure, but RDM's big issue in XI was lacking synergy. If you subbed NIN or WAR, your mage side suffered. If you subbed WHM/BLM/SCH, your melee side suffered. There was no good hybrid food, either. From there, it just had no unique tools to really stand out. I've babbled incessantly about things SE could do to improve XI's iteration, but in a best case scenario, you'd get ideas myself or others proposed winding up on new jobs, like BLU and Diffusion or SCH's Accession AoEing buffs. The aspect of the playerbase that felt a RDM should never, ever swing at a mob didn't help things, either. So, while it might not have entirely been Tanaka ****** about his babies being soloed, there were mixed signals coming from the community and an eventual chicken and egg scenario had been established. Did nobody melee on RDM because they preferred to imitate a backline mage? Or did people not melee on RDM because it had no tools do it effectively? My general sentiment on how game mechanics influence player behavior applies here, and I err toward the second question if solely because job theme suffers if you eliminate a third of the job's foundation.

Now, how will XIV do it? Eh, I'd need to know what kind of starter job they'd pick. Some seem to have an interest with Musketeer, but that's too ranged attack-y for my liking with guns and stuff. As a branching path, they could emulate the BLU and RDM dynamic with a new base class, but I feel like BLU doesn't really fit within XIV at the moment. It also doesn't feel like a good alternate for Gladiator/Paladin as much as some liked tanking on RDM. If they really want to run with the debuffer idea, then you can pile on the secondary effects to various melee/magical attacks and do the job. But to make a hybrid work in this day and age, you can't do the one or the other style XI tried to employed. It all needs to come together smoothly to avoid atrophy of one aspect.
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#94 Jul 28 2013 at 10:03 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:


Now, how will XIV do it? Eh, I'd need to know what kind of starter job they'd pick. Some seem to have an interest with Musketeer, but that's too ranged attack-y for my liking with guns and stuff. As a branching path, they could emulate the BLU and RDM dynamic with a new base class, but I feel like BLU doesn't really fit within XIV at the moment. It also doesn't feel like a good alternate for Gladiator/Paladin as much as some liked tanking on RDM. If they really want to run with the debuffer idea, then you can pile on the secondary effects to various melee/magical attacks and do the job. But to make a hybrid work in this day and age, you can't do the one or the other style XI tried to employed. It all needs to come together smoothly to avoid atrophy of one aspect.


I suppose since all the classes are basically DoT to some degree and no class strikes me as the uber DD in this game, RDM will do fine. BRD is a good example of how RDM will work when included to the mix. I disagree with you about BLU though. FFXIV would obviously change how you learn spells, but I could definitely see BLU being awesome here. As for RDM, I'd say a mix of BLM and WHM with some DPS elements like BRD only RDM would be a front line class like PLD.
#95 Jul 28 2013 at 10:06 PM Rating: Default
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sandpark wrote:

The problem wasn't ninja having shadows, the problem was shadows being subbed. Had it been only sub-able by classes that don't have ranged or self heal abilities it would have leveled the playing field a bit for solo ability between melee and magic users. There should be different types of tanks strong in one area but weaker than others in other areas. I don't want to see NInja be a tank period in ARR, but a damage dealer.

Supposed to be average wouldn't cut it XI because of the highly forced grouping and stricter subbed restrictions. Average to above average works just fine in ARR with classes though.


Agree on all points. If SE ***** up Ninja again making it a tank, I'm done with them and everything they make. NIN is a DD, period!
#96 Jul 28 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see a reason why BLU absolutely has to be shackled to RDM in FFXIV. I can see why someone would suggest Musketeer because of Blue Bullets, but with all the other weaponry of characters using Blue Magic in the previous games (Staves, Whips, Swords/Scimitars, Spears), they could fit in any of the cities under anything. It wouldn't even be a stretch to give them a totally new weapon of their own.
#97 Jul 28 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Agree on all points. If SE @#%^s up Ninja again making it a tank, I'm done with them and everything they make. NIN is a DD, period!

Whoever did the most damage was the tank anyways. :P
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#98 Jul 28 2013 at 10:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Seriha wrote:


Now, how will XIV do it? Eh, I'd need to know what kind of starter job they'd pick. Some seem to have an interest with Musketeer, but that's too ranged attack-y for my liking with guns and stuff. As a branching path, they could emulate the BLU and RDM dynamic with a new base class, but I feel like BLU doesn't really fit within XIV at the moment. It also doesn't feel like a good alternate for Gladiator/Paladin as much as some liked tanking on RDM. If they really want to run with the debuffer idea, then you can pile on the secondary effects to various melee/magical attacks and do the job. But to make a hybrid work in this day and age, you can't do the one or the other style XI tried to employed. It all needs to come together smoothly to avoid atrophy of one aspect.


I suppose since all the classes are basically DoT to some degree and no class strikes me as the uber DD in this game, RDM will do fine. BRD is a good example of how RDM will work when included to the mix. I disagree with you about BLU though. FFXIV would obviously change how you learn spells, but I could definitely see BLU being awesome here. As for RDM, I'd say a mix of BLM and WHM with some DPS elements like BRD only RDM would be a front line class like PLD.

It's kind of funny because I've seen some people ****** BRD isn't like its XI incarnation. Either way, speculation only goes so far here. My snipe on BLU in XIV hinges on how the classes have been established at the moment as mainly their default class with then a few of the job's abilities added on top. BLU's pretty much rooted in being a bunch of monster abilities, so a starting class will need to account for this in some manner unless SE wants to deviate from their established paradigm. If we're not going to pair it with RDM under the premise of "melee mage" then I would open myself to either Mime or Beastmaster. The first under the premise of imitation, though maybe your party members instead of mobs. Other is more a distinction between controlling the monster or "becoming" the monster. In this case, I just hope they avoid the whole "turn into a soulflayer" implication XI used since some craved that even though the plot implicitly told you why that was a bad thing.
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#99 Jul 28 2013 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:

It's kind of funny because I've seen some people ****** BRD isn't like its XI incarnation. Either way, speculation only goes so far here. My snipe on BLU in XIV hinges on how the classes have been established at the moment as mainly their default class with then a few of the job's abilities added on top. BLU's pretty much rooted in being a bunch of monster abilities, so a starting class will need to account for this in some manner unless SE wants to deviate from their established paradigm. If we're not going to pair it with RDM under the premise of "melee mage" then I would open myself to either Mime or Beastmaster. The first under the premise of imitation, though maybe your party members instead of mobs. Other is more a distinction between controlling the monster or "becoming" the monster. In this case, I just hope they avoid the whole "turn into a soulflayer" implication XI used since some craved that even though the plot implicitly told you why that was a bad thing.



I think most people that dislike how BRD plays now thought they could exploit it again for FFXIV for an easy endgame slot. BRD was a horribly boring job in FFXI, I'm glad they make BRD's actually do something now other than sit on their hands. Personally I think RDM and BLU are twins of each other in many ways. I could easily see RDM being the first hybrid caster to play on the frontlines instead of the backline. RDM will need AoE buffs like BRD otherwise it won't work. Considering how every buff is AoE anyways, I'm guessing this trend will continue. I can see RDM work like LNC using debuffs only with more magic and less ws. I hope they stick with the rapier swords though.

The BLU soulflayer story element was FFXI exclusive. I wouldn't worry about that.
#100 Jul 29 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Seriha wrote:

It's kind of funny because I've seen some people ****** BRD isn't like its XI incarnation. Either way, speculation only goes so far here. My snipe on BLU in XIV hinges on how the classes have been established at the moment as mainly their default class with then a few of the job's abilities added on top. BLU's pretty much rooted in being a bunch of monster abilities, so a starting class will need to account for this in some manner unless SE wants to deviate from their established paradigm. If we're not going to pair it with RDM under the premise of "melee mage" then I would open myself to either Mime or Beastmaster. The first under the premise of imitation, though maybe your party members instead of mobs. Other is more a distinction between controlling the monster or "becoming" the monster. In this case, I just hope they avoid the whole "turn into a soulflayer" implication XI used since some craved that even though the plot implicitly told you why that was a bad thing.

I think most people that dislike how BRD plays now thought they could exploit it again for FFXIV for an easy endgame slot. BRD was a horribly boring job in FFXI, I'm glad they make BRD's actually do something now other than sit on their hands. Personally I think RDM and BLU are twins of each other in many ways. I could easily see RDM being the first hybrid caster to play on the frontlines instead of the backline. RDM will need AoE buffs like BRD otherwise it won't work. Considering how every buff is AoE anyways, I'm guessing this trend will continue. I can see RDM work like LNC using debuffs only with more magic and less ws. I hope they stick with the rapier swords though.

The BLU soulflayer story element was FFXI exclusive. I wouldn't worry about that.

I personally want to see RDM and BLU come from the same class. I want them both to combine TP and MP in order to play their respective roles. I would make RDM a DPS and BLU a healer. With iconic abilities such as Mighty Guard and White Wind, I could definitely see BLU fulfilling that role. That probably won't happen, but I like how the roles would balance each other.
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#101 Jul 29 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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FrozenSherbet wrote:


I personally want to see RDM and BLU come from the same class. I want them both to combine TP and MP in order to play their respective roles. I would make RDM a DPS and BLU a healer. With iconic abilities such as Mighty Guard and White Wind, I could definitely see BLU fulfilling that role. That probably won't happen, but I like how the roles would balance each other.


I'm on the fence with this. On one hand, it's redundant to have RDM have the same cures and nukes as BLM and WHM so it does make more sense to have the BLU heal using new spells. On the other hand, all the jobs in the game seem generic to me. They all seem to have a DoT and even CJN is encourages to do some form of damage. Personally if I had to choose based on Yoshi's plans for jobs, I'd use BLU and RDM as front line buffers/DoT jobs and leave Nin/THF for front line debuffers/Dot classes.
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