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I hope there will be world bossesFollow

#1 Jul 26 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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I like reading abut stuff like in teh first EQ there was a monster that was literally made to be unbeatable (since it was really just an event monster with no supposed drops or purpose) and the entire server collaborated and organized to set up a date to test out just how "unbeatable" it was. Would be great to see something that epic happen on FFXIV
#2 Jul 26 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah that would be sick, kinda like the realm vs realm pvp, but have it PvE everyone trying to slay some super beast, id be down to do that!
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#3 Jul 26 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know, I don't think they are going to be making anymore unbeatable mobs...

Reminds me of Absolute Virtue from FFXI to be honest...

I remember hearing about linkshells fighting him for over 24 hours straight before finally giving up... that's too much, seriously...

I hope they learned NOT to do this from their mistakes in FFXI... that and the 24 hour HNM camping. Such a ridiculous waste of time IMHO.
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#4 Jul 26 2013 at 12:49 PM Rating: Default
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They already talked about the Titans they have in zones. Some of the maps which I cannot find already have the spots where they will be. Supposedly these are like Titan fates and they get more difficult each time you kill them.

Edited, Jul 26th 2013 2:50pm by Mopdaddy
#5 Jul 26 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Mopdaddy wrote:
They already talked about the Titans they have in zones. Some of the maps which I cannot find already have the spots where they will be. Supposedly these are like Titan fates and they get more difficult each time you kill them.

Edited, Jul 26th 2013 2:50pm by Mopdaddy


Last I heard, Odin will be like this. He's the only one that I know that will be like this though.
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#6 Jul 26 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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So what's the whole deal about free company roaming primals? Are those fates or instanced encounters?
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#7 Jul 26 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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i think in AV's case it wasn't a smart move to include him in the game since he was never intended to be beaten (but of course people wanted to). The first people who beat him using the wall trick didn't get any drops from him because he didn't have any at the time. They added drops to him later, and of course people wanted to kill him because that loot at the time was godly. It just wasn't cool to make him unbeatable. It also wasn't cool to force pop him after JoL, a ??? or something would have been better. Every time he popped a bunch of people just dropped dead lol.

Now the patched pandamonium warden (2 hour one) on the other hand, that i wouldn't mind in the game. I never personally got a kill on that, but he WAS killable. Was just extemely hard. As long as there varying degrees of difficulty throughout the game i have no problem with things being this hard. It just adds another challenge to aim for.
#8 Jul 26 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Default
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
I like reading abut stuff like in teh first EQ there was a monster that was literally made to be unbeatable (since it was really just an event monster with no supposed drops or purpose) and the entire server collaborated and organized to set up a date to test out just how "unbeatable" it was. Would be great to see something that epic happen on FFXIV


I dont know, that type of stuff brings me nightmarish flashbacks of the NM spawncamping of XI. NEVER AGAIN PLEASE!
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#9 Jul 26 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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If you watch the benchmark closely when they're riding chocobos past groups fighting mobs outside Gridania, in the far background you can see an enormous Adamantoise. I didnt notice it at first but that sucker is massive. I'm thinking that would qualify as a world boss.
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#10 Jul 26 2013 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I fought some giant stone golem in phase 3, in one of the higher level zones. It took maybe 10-15 minutes for about 20 people to take him down. I'm sure there will be high level FATE bosses.
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#11 Jul 26 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anyone that played 1.0 might remember the guardian treants that would one shot you with 9999 damage. These mobs looked invincible. One day on Besaid (later Blamung) the server decided to take one down and after about 1.5 hours they did it. It was a free for all, forgot alliances we are talking hundreds of players. We set our HP and kept dieing and coming back for more until it died. I would like to report it dropped something awesome but it didn't.

Edited, Jul 26th 2013 9:11pm by EdyNOTB
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#12 Jul 26 2013 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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EdyNOTB wrote:
Anyone that played 1.0 might remember the guardian treants that would one shot you with 9999 damage. These mobs looked invincible. One day on Besaid (later Blamung) the server decided to take one down and after about 1.5 hours they did it. It was a free for all, forgot alliances we are talking hundreds of players. We set our HP and kept dieing and coming back for more until it died. I would like to report it dropped something awesome but it didn't.

Edited, Jul 26th 2013 9:11pm by EdyNOTB


I love stories like this. I believe the human race is just wired to try to beat obstacles even if we are told its impossible.
Go humanity!!

That said, I really enjoyed FFXI Dynamus and sky gods. Sea was beautiful.

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#13 Jul 27 2013 at 12:34 AM Rating: Default
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Hairspray wrote:
I don't know, I don't think they are going to be making anymore unbeatable mobs...

Reminds me of Absolute Virtue from FFXI to be honest...

I remember hearing about linkshells fighting him for over 24 hours straight before finally giving up... that's too much, seriously...

I hope they learned NOT to do this from their mistakes in FFXI... that and the 24 hour HNM camping. Such a ridiculous waste of time IMHO.




except in AVs case only 8 ppl could hit him at a time because of the alliance limit and the claim system... in my example 200+ ppl could be attacking at the same time thus making it a LOT more manageable also n one fought AV for 24 hours straight and gave up.. that was pandemonium warden which was 16-18 hours
#14 Jul 27 2013 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
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I dont know, that type of stuff brings me nightmarish flashbacks of the NM spawncamping of XI. NEVER AGAIN PLEASE!


I agree. Some of the spawn timers were just insane 24+ hrs no thanks, the animosity and hatred created, again no thanks. Unbeatable mobs are just silly and serve no purpose.

If they linked them to fates where after this huge long chain of fates, or where everyone had to cordinate to do certain fates that spawned at the same time, afterwards a world boss spawned that would be cool. Loot would have to be where everyone got their own loot pool/coffer or have them drop stuff that you can obtain from other sources like dungeons would be great that way everyone gets a chance, instead of on FC having a monopoly on said World Boss.
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#15 Jul 27 2013 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
I like reading abut stuff like in teh first EQ there was a monster that was literally made to be unbeatable (since it was really just an event monster with no supposed drops or purpose) and the entire server collaborated and organized to set up a date to test out just how "unbeatable" it was. Would be great to see something that epic happen on FFXIV


Reminds me when all of Windurst beat down the mithra with our festival bokken. Took forever. The prize? Gold Carp. GOLD CARP!!!! it was very anticlimatic.
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#16 Jul 27 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Also EQ (At least on legends servers) had a Boss Mob that was controlled by a GM. I can't remember exactly was so long ago but I want to say it was some Vampire Lord from a zone Mistmoore or something it was a large castle. I remember the fun battles b.c it was almost like PvP except he was a Boss.

Edited, Jul 27th 2013 9:57am by Mopdaddy

Edited, Jul 27th 2013 9:59am by Mopdaddy
#17 Jul 27 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the way that Bioware did it on SWTOR, every planet had a boss that would require a large group of players to cooperate in order to bring down for the chance at some really good loot. The idea of a Notorious Monster that spawns every two or three hours in a couple mid to high level zones that requires an 8 man group to take down in exchange for some loot and bragging rights is something I'd be interested in.
#18 Jul 27 2013 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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If you look at the benchmark video; in one of the chocobo-riding scenes in the Shroud, there is a GIGANTIC TORTOISE walking around in the background. I don't know if anything has been said about that yet, but boy would that thing be fun to fight. Hopefully they weren't just messing around with mob sizes for benchmarking purposes, because it would be amazing if that enemy popped up randomly and just started destroying the zone.

It is at about the 4 minute mark:
Benchmark Video


#19 Jul 27 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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i hope endgame FATE bosses will something simmilar where free company will have to organized to take them down


since FATE is open world why not have a FATE endgame boss where 100-200 ppl fight aganist it with a crazy 2week - 4 week respawn timer lol


or a 1 time event with a cross-promtion endgame FATE boss ( like to promote ff15 , they will spawn the game final boss as a 1 time event fate boss in xiv ) the ppl that beat it will earn a special title
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#20 Jul 27 2013 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Ggrab wrote:
i hope endgame FATE bosses will something simmilar where free company will have to organized to take them down


since FATE is open world why not have a FATE endgame boss where 100-200 ppl fight aganist it with a crazy 2week - 4 week respawn timer lol


or a 1 time event with a cross-promtion endgame FATE boss ( like to promote ff15 , they will spawn the game final boss as a 1 time event fate boss in xiv ) the ppl that beat it will earn a special title



FATE is actually spelled A.N.A.R.C.H.Y.

That said Odin sounds like a FATE that will require a tad more knowledge than simply running in guns blazing. As for your spawn timer... I wouldn't mind one or two like that. Rare NM's are fun NM's so long as it isn't the norm.

Edited, Jul 27th 2013 3:16pm by ShindaUsagi
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#21 Jul 27 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
If you watch the benchmark closely when they're riding chocobos past groups fighting mobs outside Gridania, in the far background you can see an enormous Adamantoise. I didnt notice it at first but that sucker is massive. I'm thinking that would qualify as a world boss.


Yoshi said that wasn't in the game but if enough people request to have something that big he can allow it to happen.
#22 Jul 27 2013 at 8:07 PM Rating: Decent
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godagun wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
If you watch the benchmark closely when they're riding chocobos past groups fighting mobs outside Gridania, in the far background you can see an enormous Adamantoise. I didnt notice it at first but that sucker is massive. I'm thinking that would qualify as a world boss.


Yoshi said that wasn't in the game but if enough people request to have something that big he can allow it to happen.



Aww man, that's pretty disappointing.

Seriously though, what makes him think people WOULDN'T unanimously want to fight a gigantic monster like that?
#23 Jul 27 2013 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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I actually didn't mind the ridiculous spawn conditions of certain NM's, it made actually getting the item they drop feel so incredibly worth it. I can still remember the exact moment when I saw Argus spawn, killed it and got a Peacock Amulet...it was a pretty thrilling moment. Same goes for many other NM camping experiences. I realize not everyone has no life like me and can invest that kind of time into camping something though, but it was still something I did actually enjoy from FFXI.
#24 Jul 27 2013 at 10:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jeraziah wrote:
I actually didn't mind the ridiculous spawn conditions of certain NM's, it made actually getting the item they drop feel so incredibly worth it. I can still remember the exact moment when I saw Argus spawn, killed it and got a Peacock Amulet...it was a pretty thrilling moment. Same goes for many other NM camping experiences. I realize not everyone has no life like me and can invest that kind of time into camping something though, but it was still something I did actually enjoy from FFXI.


i have to agree with you on this. I would say i had some pretty bad luck. i went something like 0/25 for peacock charm, and didn't try again until they made it rare/ex. It took me 3 kills to get the rare/ex version so i was able to sell my old peacock charm and buy something else. The fealing you get when you achieve what your after is what the game is about.

What i REALLY don't want them to do again though is the king HNM's. It's not that it wasn't a cool feature to have in the game, but holy crap those botters made it impossible to claim them. If we did get claim it was like once a month per king, with the same 1 or 2 shells getting claim every day. If they can find a way to make it work so it's fair for everyone without 3rd party aps ruining it, i'm all for it.
#25 Jul 28 2013 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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Jeraziah wrote:
I actually didn't mind the ridiculous spawn conditions of certain NM's, it made actually getting the item they drop feel so incredibly worth it. I can still remember the exact moment when I saw Argus spawn, killed it and got a Peacock Amulet...it was a pretty thrilling moment. Same goes for many other NM camping experiences. I realize not everyone has no life like me and can invest that kind of time into camping something though, but it was still something I did actually enjoy from FFXI.

Yeah, no thanks.
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#26 Jul 28 2013 at 7:32 AM Rating: Default
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
Jeraziah wrote:
I actually didn't mind the ridiculous spawn conditions of certain NM's, it made actually getting the item they drop feel so incredibly worth it. I can still remember the exact moment when I saw Argus spawn, killed it and got a Peacock Amulet...it was a pretty thrilling moment. Same goes for many other NM camping experiences. I realize not everyone has no life like me and can invest that kind of time into camping something though, but it was still something I did actually enjoy from FFXI.


i have to agree with you on this. I would say i had some pretty bad luck. i went something like 0/25 for peacock charm, and didn't try again until they made it rare/ex. It took me 3 kills to get the rare/ex version so i was able to sell my old peacock charm and buy something else. The fealing you get when you achieve what your after is what the game is about.

What i REALLY don't want them to do again though is the king HNM's. It's not that it wasn't a cool feature to have in the game, but holy crap those botters made it impossible to claim them. If we did get claim it was like once a month per king, with the same 1 or 2 shells getting claim every day. If they can find a way to make it work so it's fair for everyone without 3rd party aps ruining it, i'm all for it.

I don't like anything that rewards someone over someone else just for being able to play longer in one sitting. But I'm sure there are players who link this with the notion that if you play in longer sittings, you should be better rewarded. The longer and crazier spawn conditions get and the more leet the loot. The game starts to funnel hardcore(time wise) and spit out casuals(time wise).

HNM having some of the best drops were the epitome of this in full effect. Why would SE develop a game with it's best drop content being something only 5-10% of the playerbase will ever participate in or even have the time to if they wanted?

Here's what I would like to see:
How about a monster hunter class? You can call it beastmaster if you want? This class would be labeled under a disciple of the land category but would have battle related abilities.

1.All the monster hunter's rewards come from hunting beast or notorious monsters out in the open field.Skins for personal armor, teeth for protection, meat for unique buffs, they learn unique skills by imitating monsters.

2.All notorious monsters are content for this class only, and when they spawn they are visible to other classes but only able to be acted upon by anyone playing the monster hunter class. Some monsters may require grouping of monster hunters.

3.There are special NM that the monster class can form bonds with, they level and grow alongside the monster hunter.

4.Because this is a special class whose content and rewards are designed specifically for this class. And these monsters do not hold drops that are really rare for other classes. This content can be applied and not cause the hardcore funnel effect. Whoever plays this class knows what they are getting themselves into from the very beginning.

5.This can be the content for players who prefer solo or light parties for the entire game. There would be a meta-game/endgame designed for them while not forcing this upon other classes.

6.There would be a centric commerce amongst monster hunters for trade.

Possible con:
Want: I'm dragoon and want to hunt HNM or notorious monsters in the open field!
SE: Hey, we have that content for you in FATE, instances and guildleves! It's not necessarily open world for you but that was a design decision by us for reasons stated above.
#27 Jul 28 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
Jeraziah wrote:
I actually didn't mind the ridiculous spawn conditions of certain NM's, it made actually getting the item they drop feel so incredibly worth it. I can still remember the exact moment when I saw Argus spawn, killed it and got a Peacock Amulet...it was a pretty thrilling moment. Same goes for many other NM camping experiences. I realize not everyone has no life like me and can invest that kind of time into camping something though, but it was still something I did actually enjoy from FFXI.


i have to agree with you on this. I would say i had some pretty bad luck. i went something like 0/25 for peacock charm, and didn't try again until they made it rare/ex. It took me 3 kills to get the rare/ex version so i was able to sell my old peacock charm and buy something else. The fealing you get when you achieve what your after is what the game is about.

What i REALLY don't want them to do again though is the king HNM's. It's not that it wasn't a cool feature to have in the game, but holy crap those botters made it impossible to claim them. If we did get claim it was like once a month per king, with the same 1 or 2 shells getting claim every day. If they can find a way to make it work so it's fair for everyone without 3rd party aps ruining it, i'm all for it.

I don't like anything that rewards someone over someone else just for being able to play longer in one sitting. But I'm sure there are players who link this with the notion that if you play in longer sittings, you should be better rewarded. The longer and crazier spawn conditions get and the more leet the loot. The game starts to funnel hardcore(time wise) and spit out casuals(time wise).

HNM having some of the best drops were the epitome of this in full effect. Why would SE develop a game with it's best drop content being something only 5-10% of the playerbase will ever participate in or even have the time to if they wanted?

Here's what I would like to see:
How about a monster hunter class? You can call it beastmaster if you want? This class would be labeled under a disciple of the land category but would have battle related abilities.

1.All the monster hunter's rewards come from hunting beast or notorious monsters out in the open field.Skins for personal armor, teeth for protection, meat for unique buffs, they learn unique skills by imitating monsters.

2.All notorious monsters are content for this class only, and when they spawn they are visible to other classes but only able to be acted upon by anyone playing the monster hunter class. Some monsters may require grouping of monster hunters.

3.There are special NM that the monster class can form bonds with, they level and grow alongside the monster hunter.

4.Because this is a special class whose content and rewards are designed specifically for this class. And these monsters do not hold drops that are really rare for other classes. This content can be applied and not cause the hardcore funnel effect. Whoever plays this class knows what they are getting themselves into from the very beginning.

5.This can be the content for players who prefer solo or light parties for the entire game. There would be a meta-game/endgame designed for them while not forcing this upon other classes.

6.There would be a centric commerce amongst monster hunters for trade.

Possible con:
Want: I'm dragoon and want to hunt HNM or notorious monsters in the open field!
SE: Hey, we have that content for you in FATE, instances and guildleves! It's not necessarily open world for you but that was a design decision by us for reasons stated above.

WAAAYYYYY back when....There was supposed to be a "Shepherd" DoL class that tended to flocks of animals, like antelopes and rams and stuff. The idea was that the shepherd would "harvest" animal parts like the other DoLs harvest nodes. I think you're idea has merit along those lines for sure :)

There are also already "NMs" in the GC hunt logs that spawn randomly during certain levequests, but I don't believe they drop anything. I think it would be cool to have an addition like a Monster Hunting guild a la FF XII too. To sort of expand out from what's already there. Maybe as an addition to the adventurer's guild or something.
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#28 Jul 28 2013 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Monster hunting guild, I like the sound of that! We are the monster squad haha!

They could do the same thing with a treasure hunter guild. A class built around exploring ruins for relics, secret rooms, treasure maps, picking locks, solving puzzles, disarming or avoiding booby traps, etc.
#29 Jul 28 2013 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Monster hunting guild, I like the sound of that! We are the monster squad haha!

They could do the same thing with a treasure hunter guild. A class built around exploring ruins for relics, secret rooms, treasure maps, picking locks, solving puzzles, disarming or avoiding booby traps, etc.

Oooohh... yeah I like that too!

You should throw your suggestions up on the beta forums! Link your post back here if you do and we can "like" it for ya :)
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#30 Jul 28 2013 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I personally have a limit on how long it should take a monster to respawn, and that's 8 hours. Why? Well, assuming a global presence on a server, that should give the 3 big time zone groupings (NA/JP/EU) a shot or two daily. However, as much as I despised Kings or things like Tiamat in XI, Rift and the Volan event did a good job in reminding me why long respawn times suck: Miss it? Tough ****.

"But it's cool having these rare items that not everyone would have!" And essentially this where myself and I suspect others would convey the sentiment that skill should prevail over dumb luck. Dumb luck on being around when the mob pops. Dumb luck in being able to kill it if it's actually difficult. Dumb luck in whatever it has actually dropping. In turn, a single item could take weeks, months, maybe even years to drop for someone. Big question, WHY?! FFXI taught me this breed of rarity brings out the worst in people. MPK, ninja looting, outright deception on (re)spawn conditions, friends camping against friends, RMT and even legit players choking supply... the list probably goes on. Frack that.

Let the FATEs be our source of open world baddies, and ideally have respawns somewhere in the 1-3 hour range. None of this **** like the world boss in ArcheAge that took 100+ people down and only dropped one item. Loot pools for everyone. Credits/tokens, too. That way, even if Odin, Behemoth, or whatever never directly drops what you want, you can at least buy it after a certain number of attempts. If the fear is everyone will look the same after a point, well, that's where items with the same stats, but different looks come in. Or a wardrobe system. Those who really like punishing lotteries can handicap themselves in that regard. Don't drag everyone else down, because that's a good way to kill endgame by leaving people feeling they're just spinning their wheels and getting nowhere.
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#31 Jul 28 2013 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Jeraziah wrote:
snip

Yeah, no thanks.
Once game mechanics start to reward you for organizing your real life around in-game events,
the pimpled banner of the basement ghoul is on the rise. Which is always a good time to quit.


I'm with you. There's no way I have time for that sort of thing anymore if it becomes a barrier to progression. On the other hand, I'm not against its existence. There should be a happy medium, which is not "getting rid of them altogether." It's fine that you don't enjoy NM camping, and I agree that multi-day spawn timers combined with tiny drop rates are pretty ridiculous and unjustifiable, but how about making some difficult spawn conditions for those who DO want to participate in those kinds of activities? I can't out of time restrictions, but there is clearly a demand, and there are other ways to make NM spawns difficult/rare that don't involve waiting in the same spot for hours at a time.

I don't want to turn away from the topic of this thread, but we have multiple unrelated posts that are trying to cut to the heart of a much broader, single issue: I think what we're seeing here is a general worry that a sense of accomplishment is being thrown out the window. Nightmare Mode dungeons are all well and good, but "accomplishment" can and should be applied to many other aspects of the game. To quote another commenter from another forum (sorry I don't have the name for credit):

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I just miss how scary and brutal FF11 was. I will never forget stocking up on invis potions to travel up some cave to a snow mountain to allow me to be teleported there. I almost got killed by some undead thing, and some paladin guy saved my ***, and then I got lost once up on the mountain and killed, but 5 minutes later some party revived me. It was a journey of fear, sorrow, and then victory. I want to relive this


I think FFXIV is doing a better job than most in trying to strike that balance between "easy mode" and "accomplishment." I have faith in Yoshi-P, so I guess we'll see how it ends up!
#32 Jul 28 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:
I don't know, I don't think they are going to be making anymore unbeatable mobs...

Reminds me of Absolute Virtue from FFXI to be honest...

I remember hearing about linkshells fighting him for over 24 hours straight before finally giving up... that's too much, seriously...

I hope they learned NOT to do this from their mistakes in FFXI... that and the 24 hour HNM camping. Such a ridiculous waste of time IMHO.



I never understood why people have something against content like this?

If you don't want to do it, that's fine. No one is forcing you to participate. On the other hand, what about the people that like trying to go for extremely difficult content like this.... and before anyone says anything about gil farmers camping it, just make it rare/ex, problem solved.


Edit: I'm not talking about unbeatable content... I can understand why that is pretty much useless and adds nothing to the game. I'm more referring to extremely rare spawns.


Edited, Jul 28th 2013 11:44am by ClydesShadow
#33 Jul 28 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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ClydesShadow wrote:
If you don't want to do it, that's fine. No one is forcing you to participate. On the other hand, what about the people that like trying to go for extremely difficult content like this....


Except that waiting and idling your thumbs for 4+ hours waiting on something to spawn isn't difficult. It's time consuming, boring, and pointless. Plus, it's not like the majority of world bosses are ever really difficult. EQ's became long fights with massive cure chains, but it was boring as ****.

FFXI's required you to be able to breath and know basic endgame mechanics (stand on a wyrm's feet, attack anything else from the sides if you can and it long faces, pretend something new has a spike flail because odds are it does, etc.), but they were hardly difficult. Nidhogg just hit harder with hurricane wing and had mighty strikes. King Behemoth required the kiters to be non-braindead. Aspidochelone was the herp-derp king and only required you to know to nuke when it shell, rest when out. Khimaira involved figuring out Fulmination was blocked by slight height elevations and rendered him virtually impotent. Cerberus was a joke, and Hydra just involved remember which block magic or physical. The fact that *ALL* of these could (and were) killed by small groups when they were current content is just more proof they weren't really that difficult.

In fact, of all the MMOs I've played and done endgame with that's had world bosses (EQ, FFXI, WoW, LotRO) there wasn't a single one that really had a difficult fight because they're meant to be easily beaten. The "challenge" is bothering to try and track when they spawn.
#34 Jul 28 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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ClydesShadow wrote:

I never understood why people have something against content like this?
If you don't want to do it, that's fine. No one is forcing you to participate.

True. But seeing others with the associated drops constantly reminds me of the
fact that there is a lot of content I`ll never be able to see and a lot of equipment I`ll
never be able to wear, simply because I work and have better things to do in my
life than camping virtual dispensers of random rewards 24/7.

Now I may Sound like a parent, but I actually believe that games should reward
"healthy" competition. Not a competition that is won by those who manage to
ignore their RL responsibilities and deteriorating eyesight longest.
#35 Jul 28 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Well what I dont understand is why ppl dont wan that kinda content using this as an excuse "that kinda stuff only helps the no lifes who can play all day camping a 24 hour pop wereas ppl who dont have the schedule to schedule their life around a game cant do that and would be alienated from that kinda content and thus would never be able to get that kinda stuff"

I disagree 100% for one reason, even FFXI made a solution to that very problem... BCNM that drop teh same or equivalent equipment that is rare/ex (or not rare ex.

for example dont wanna deal with camping argus for a peacock amulet? ok pay 40 seals and take a spin getting the peacock charm.. and just like that both "hardcore" and "casuals" can be happy, or am I missing something?
#36 Jul 28 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:

I never understood why people have something against content like this?
If you don't want to do it, that's fine. No one is forcing you to participate.

True. But seeing others with the associated drops constantly reminds me of the
fact that there is a lot of content I`ll never be able to see and a lot of equipment I`ll
never be able to wear, simply because I work and have better things to do in my
life than camping virtual dispensers of random rewards 24/7.
.



and if thats the way you feel about it (which makes perfect sense) then you shouldnt let what other ppl in gave have or can do that you dont have or cant do because you have better (and MORE IMPORTANT) thing s to worry about/think about then virtual status items. Its just like real life not everyone is gonna be rich own a mansion a Lamborghini or be the CEO of one of the biggest companies in the world, but those of us who arent are still happy with/comfortable with were we at in life right? (sure we may not be bill gates and cant get EVERYTHING we want but at least we''re living comfortably and not living pay check to paycheck.. or even worse.. unemployed and broke)... point being you can still play and enjoy FFXIV or any mmo at a comfortable level without worrying about being the Bill Gates of Eorzea or having teh best gear known to man... let the ppl with more time on their hand (or money) live that life, you dont NEED that to be happy do you?
#37 Jul 28 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Its just like real life

It`s just that I don`t play games for an accurate replication of the tedious and boring parts of real life.
For that, I have my real life.
#38 Jul 28 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Default
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Well what I dont understand is why ppl dont wan that kinda content using this as an excuse "that kinda stuff only helps the no lifes who can play all day camping a 24 hour pop wereas ppl who dont have the schedule to schedule their life around a game cant do that and would be alienated from that kinda content and thus would never be able to get that kinda stuff"

I disagree 100% for one reason, even FFXI made a solution to that very problem... BCNM that drop teh same or equivalent equipment that is rare/ex (or not rare ex.

for example dont wanna deal with camping argus for a peacock amulet? ok pay 40 seals and take a spin getting the peacock charm.. and just like that both "hardcore" and "casuals" can be happy, or am I missing something?

Just farming seals killing a certain monster over and over is no different from camping an NM for hours. Unless you mean acquiring seals naturally over time, but even then unless the drop rate is extremely high,it would take way too long. That hours of mundane/repetitive tasks adds up & would be better served actually accomplishing things or having fun in the meantime. Not waiting to have fun. It's like trying to craft something, but you are not allowed to craft an HQ item until 21 hours and the stars and moon have to align or having to gather 40 different materials for crafting.

I offered a solution above that offers that type of content for the few who want it and allows everyone else to bypass that should they wish with my monster hunters class idea.
#39 Jul 28 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:

Except that waiting and idling your thumbs for 4+ hours waiting on something to spawn isn't difficult. It's time consuming, boring, and pointless. Plus, it's not like the majority of world bosses are ever really difficult. EQ's became long fights with massive cure chains, but it was boring as ****.



Again, who is forcing you to participate in the content? You don't like it, fine. Why remove it for those who do?




#40 Jul 28 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:

I never understood why people have something against content like this?
If you don't want to do it, that's fine. No one is forcing you to participate.

True. But seeing others with the associated drops constantly reminds me of the
fact that there is a lot of content I`ll never be able to see and a lot of equipment I`ll
never be able to wear, simply because I work and have better things to do in my
life than camping virtual dispensers of random rewards 24/7.

Now I may Sound like a parent, but I actually believe that games should reward
"healthy" competition. Not a competition that is won by those who manage to
ignore their RL responsibilities and deteriorating eyesight longest.



This is like saying, I see people in my town with Ferraris, but they shouldn't be able to have them just because I don't want to be reminded that I'll never have one.
#41 Jul 28 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Everyone wants to play a game that best rewards exactly their own level of time and commitment. Since that can never happen, a game can either have something for everyone, or just decide that it's aiming at only a certain kind of player.

Personally, I'd rather have something for everyone, but it's harder for a developer to pump out enough content to satisfy different player types. If the developer can keep up, though, it means a larger and more varied player base, which is always a good thing.

Personally, if I can handle seeing people in a café using the newest iPad when I don't own one, then I can handle people in an imaginary world using an imaginary sword when I don't imaginarily own one.
#42 Jul 28 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Caesura wrote:
Everyone wants to play a game that best rewards exactly their own level of time and commitment. Since that can never happen, a game can either have something for everyone, or just decide that it's aiming at only a certain kind of player.

Personally, I'd rather have something for everyone, but it's harder for a developer to pump out enough content to satisfy different player types. If the developer can keep up, though, it means a larger and more varied player base, which is always a good thing.

Personally, if I can handle seeing people in a café using the newest iPad when I don't own one, then I can handle people in an imaginary world using an imaginary sword when I don't imaginarily own one.

The way I look at it, prior to an expansion, a casual player should be able to deck out one class. A hardcore player, on the other hand, should be able to do the same with at least three or four classes. The problem with my train of thought is that not every hardcore player is going to want to use that many classes. So yeah, this is an argument that never ends.

Regarding world bosses, I wouldn't mind them as large scale FATEs that take place during certain times of the year. I wouldn't want them dropping anything valuable—maybe just a title or vanity item. I also don't want to see them take longer than an hour to kill. That's just my opinion, though.
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#43 Jul 28 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Viertel wrote:

Except that waiting and idling your thumbs for 4+ hours waiting on something to spawn isn't difficult. It's time consuming, boring, and pointless. Plus, it's not like the majority of world bosses are ever really difficult. EQ's became long fights with massive cure chains, but it was boring as ****.

Again, who is forcing you to participate in the content? You don't like it, fine. Why remove it for those who do?

Because those who "like to" participate in that kind of content are doing it for the rewards (as you said yourself).
Consequently, the rewards provided will not be obtainable by other, more thrilling or generally appealing means.
Consequently, those who do not want to participate in that kind of content will lose out on the associated rewards.
Since I do neither want to participate in that kind of content nor lose out on important rewards, I am against the
implementation of that kind of content. Hard to understand?

Let`s make a deal: As long as that kind of content offers no meaningful rewards, I will support its implementation.
Not satisfied?
Bummers.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 6:28pm by Rinsui
#44 Jul 28 2013 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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no the king system in xi was broken even after they made things r/ex for kings you still had RMT and bots only they would just let the item hit the ground if no one wanted to buy it and frankly i loved the content until i got sick of rotating my sleep schedule around so i can be up for a pop window where the monster would spawn purple. yeah nothing makes you want to commit domestic abuse on your S.O. and children more than waking up at 3 in the morning waiting a couple hr just to see fafhog materialize purple. after a couple years of that i just said **** em. that was also about the time i started letting my account go dead for months at a time.
#45 Jul 28 2013 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
Viertel wrote:

Except that waiting and idling your thumbs for 4+ hours waiting on something to spawn isn't difficult. It's time consuming, boring, and pointless. Plus, it's not like the majority of world bosses are ever really difficult. EQ's became long fights with massive cure chains, but it was boring as ****.

Again, who is forcing you to participate in the content? You don't like it, fine. Why remove it for those who do?

Because those who "like to" participate in that kind of content are doing it for the rewards (as you said yourself).
Consequently, the rewards provided will not be obtainable by other, more thrilling or generally appealing means.
Consequently, those who do not want to participate in that kind of content will lose out on the associated rewards.
Since I do neither want to participate in that kind of content nor lose out on important rewards, I am against the
implementation of that kind of content. Hard to understand?

Let`s make a deal: As long as that kind of content offers no meaningful rewards, I will support its implementation.
Not satisfied?
Bummers.


Edited, Jul 28th 2013 6:28pm by Rinsui


Your comments are incredibly in line with current American pop-culture. If I can't have it then no one should have it. Don't like it? Well bummers.

I never implied they should eliminate the content that exists now, I simply intimated that the game could benefit from a particular type of content which adds a sense of wonder to the game... A feeling of "well maybe one day I'll happen by one of these rare spawns."

I also think there is a general lack of imagination amongst the community. It's commonly held that these rare spawns must always occur like they always have in games like XI and EQ. Where the monster spawns in a set place, on some random timer. What if the monsters spawned in totally random places in the world at any given time? Therefore making it completely impossible to camp any monster, because there is absolutely no certainty as to where it would spawn. This achieves several goals:

A. Eliminates camping completely
B. Provides everyone in the world (within a specific level range) a chance of obtaining the item
C. Provides individuality, because it creates a situation where every player in the game has a chance to obtain a rare item... it solves the problem of "Look at my awesome new sword... Oh wait, crap, everyone and their Mom also has that awesome sword."
D. It provides a reason to explore maps... currently, there is little incentive to explore the world. Teleporting has too little barrier to access, and makes the cost of foot travel to high. By making rare spawns occur at random places in the world, people will be more willing to run from place to place.

I could go on and on, but I think I've demonstrated at least a few tangible positives that would be associated with world bosses that spawned in random locations, and not just one of several small spots on a particular map.

Needless to say, people are so entrenched in their ideas I'm sure a debate such as this is mostly futile.

@Fillupurcup

This is a perfect example of a way to alleviate that. Having complete random pops anywhere in the world completely disincentivizes camping... as to the fact that the entire world is the camp.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 9:43pm by ClydesShadow
#46 Jul 28 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Again, who is forcing you to participate in the content? You don't like it, fine. Why remove it for those who do?

Contrary to Duo's attempt to deflect the problem of XI's HNM system with BCs, there was no alternative to an Adaman Hauberk, Ridill, Defending Ring, Dalmatica, and other abjurations. This persisted for years and even when Einherjar arrived as pseudo-BC content, it just copied some of the king pools and required people exploiting mule rotations to actually fight Odin on a semi-regular basis. Only exception was Black Belt items from KS99s, but 3 drops for 1 class does not a system make. I could also go into more detail for gaps in Rift relative to world currency gear and raid stuff, but I doubt people will genuinely care.

It can be assured that if hard mobs were plopped into the wild that dropped nothing, people would *****. Ego and prestige is exactly why raiders demand better gear because they believe it's justified for their efforts. Challenge isn't their only goal. It's also the nature of MMOs for people to shoot for optimal builds and skill rotations, of which people will "require" even if the expectation is unreasonable due to trickle down sheep-ism. For example, XI's current hiccup are PUG groups requiring DDs have Delve weapons to do Delve content. If you're someone just getting into Adoulin, then this is impossible. Some justify this by them maybe playing BRD or WHM until you get a weapon of choice, but then that just snowballs time and potential class disinterest against the player. And even before this situation, it wasn't uncommon to see HNM LS require people be a certain gear tier, usually obtainable via another HNM LS, before accepting them. Because @#%^ helping the fresh blood get up to speed.

Now, I'm not against these mobs existing if their loot has reasonable alternative and accessible sources. I just don't trust any company to do that because pandering to the vocal minority of the egotistical hardcore seems to be the in thing in the MMO scene (This is my experience in XI, Rift, Aion, Tera, and GW2 talking). And you can bet your *** they'll be resentful if there are other sources, evoking terms like welfare epics or simply saying they're better because they got it X way. I'd love it if this toxic class warfare didn't exist, but game mechanics influence player behavior, and limited resources do bad things to people.

Quote:
I also think there is a general lack of imagination amongst the community. It's commonly held that these rare spawns must always occur like they always have in games like XI and EQ. Where the monster spawns in a set place, on some random timer. What if the monsters spawned in totally random places in the world at any given time? Therefore making it completely impossible to camp any monster, because there is absolutely no certainty as to where it would spawn. This achieves several goals:

I'll cite Sandworm and Ixion for this as an example from XI and simply say it doesn't work. In fact, it just better rewards the no-lifers and those who run multiple accounts. Potentially cheaters/hackers, too. As well, the longer these two mobs existed popping in multiple areas once a day or longer, people fine-tuned their conditions and began to rule out what zones they'd pop in and eventually potential pop spots. There was also a point where I had people in my LS ****** at me because I refused to camp these ******* (in part because I knew they wouldn't give me any drops anyway because I wasn't in their inner circle). True random, as you yearn for it, can't exist. I know I'd also be ****** off if I'm on a lowbie job and suddenly a level 55+ HNM pops on my *** and eats me and everyone else in the area until other people decide to show up if they even care to. The Ram HNMs in LTP and KH had this effect on some in XI for sure.

Conditional pops are fine. Like kill X raptors to force a raptor NM to pop. Or drag a fly mob to a swamp to lure out a frog NM. Depending on how the world changes reflective to FATEs could also be a thing, too. The main point is to not totally divorce control from the player, because perceived wasted time is temptation to play another game if they're forced to experience such enough. People aren't rats in a Skinner Box, don't treat us as such.

Edited, Jul 28th 2013 10:42pm by Seriha
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#47 Jul 28 2013 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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ClydesShadow wrote:

I never implied they should eliminate the content that exists now, I simply intimated that the game could benefit from a particular type of content which adds a sense of wonder to the game... A feeling of "well maybe one day I'll happen by one of these rare spawns."

I also think there is a general lack of imagination amongst the community. It's commonly held that these rare spawns must always occur like they always have in games like XI and EQ. Where the monster spawns in a set place, on some random timer. What if the monsters spawned in totally random places in the world at any given time? Therefore making it completely impossible to camp any monster, because there is absolutely no certainty as to where it would spawn. This achieves several goals:

Sounds fair in theory, but in execution not likely. If the drops are not random and are worthwhile, there lies motive to camp. I believe Ixion in XI had random spawn points. I still saw guilds use third party programs and farm the monsters. Also to have a massive system run algorythyms to make everything completely random would require a server system running in the backgrounds which would eat up server/pc resources. Fates might seem random but they are scripted to run at certain intervals.

Clydeshadow wrote:

A. Eliminates camping completely
B. Provides everyone in the world (within a specific level range) a chance of obtaining the item
C. Provides individuality, because it creates a situation where every player in the game has a chance to obtain a rare item... it solves the problem of "Look at my awesome new sword... Oh wait, crap, everyone and their Mom also has that awesome sword."
D. It provides a reason to explore maps... currently, there is little incentive to explore the world. Teleporting has too little barrier to access, and makes the cost of foot travel to high. By making rare spawns occur at random places in the world, people will be more willing to run from place to place.

A. No it would not.
B. True, but so does all content. If the drops(rare) are the best at their level range, it would funnel players into doing this content the most.
C.Anything cool made and players will find a way to abuse or pursue it. Everyone and their mom will have that awesome sword too, unless the spawn times are so wide and vast that only players with extreme amounts of free time will be snowflakes.
D, There are reasons to explore maps already. Aetherytes, dungeons, new zones, cities, fates,etc. The world itself should provide incentive to explore and if it doesn't SE needs to add vista achievements, quests, or redesign the landscape so it does. Why should the cost of fast travel be expensive? The option exist to go the long way if you wish. And if you don't wish too, well that just sucks. I'd like to travel the world more often than I do. But the cost of travel in terms of time is too great. One to five times flying somewhere is ok, but if I travel there constantly, yeah it wears you down.

I offered a solution with a monster hunter alternative. It provides an avenue for players who want this content while not funneling the players who don't care for notorious monster type systems. The only con would be that you want to tackle this on let's say dragoon.
This type of system I put forward let's you get what you want and Rinsui gets what he wants.
#48 Jul 28 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
I know I'd also be ****** off if I'm on a lowbie job and suddenly a level 55+ HNM pops on my *** and eats me and everyone else in the area until other people decide to show up if they even care to. The Ram HNMs in LTP and KH had this effect on some in XI for sure.

That happened when I was an up-and-coming monk on the purple belt quest. My competition & I all wiped out when Bloodtear Baldurf popped instead. Some other bystanders as well perhaps. I thought it was pretty **** funny.
#49 Jul 28 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Default
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sandpark wrote:

D, There are reasons to explore maps already. Aetherytes, dungeons, new zones, cities, fates,etc. The world itself should provide incentive to explore and if it doesn't SE needs to add vista achievements, quests, or redesign the landscape so it does. Why should the cost of fast travel be expensive? The option exist to go the long way if you wish. And if you don't wish too, well that just sucks. I'd like to travel the world more often than I do. But the cost of travel in terms of time is too great. One to five times flying somewhere is ok, but if I travel there constantly, yeah it wears you down.

I offered a solution with a monster hunter alternative. It provides an avenue for players who want this content while not funneling the players who don't care for notorious monster type systems. The only con would be that you want to tackle this on let's say dragoon.
This type of system I put forward let's you get what you want and Rinsui gets what he wants.


Those reasons listed for map exploring are almost exclusively one time occurrences. After you've visited a dungeon or aetheryte a single time, there is never a reason to return. I never said the cost of travel should be high, I merely mentioned that currently the time expense outweighs the monetary expense. That's the reason we're having this conversation in the first place... People were saying they don't want world bosses because of the time cost (and some others because "it just isn't fair" excuse me while I get my violin to play these people a sad, sad song.)

Nonetheless, I will always advocate more content over less content. Beyond the fact that some people are diametrically opposed to it, I don't see how it decreases the experience of the game...

One last point, with the new "everyone can join the action" battle system... If these rare spawns did occur, if they were made strong enough, it is likely numerous people would be able to join the action and share in the loot.
#50 Jul 28 2013 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Seriha wrote:
I know I'd also be ****** off if I'm on a lowbie job and suddenly a level 55+ HNM pops on my *** and eats me and everyone else in the area until other people decide to show up if they even care to. The Ram HNMs in LTP and KH had this effect on some in XI for sure.

That happened when I was an up-and-coming monk on the purple belt quest. My competition & I all wiped out when Bloodtear Baldurf popped instead. Some other bystanders as well perhaps. I thought it was pretty **** funny.


Well I suppose it would be wise to not make them pop right in front of the opening areas... Although pretty much anywhere else in the world would definitely add intrigue to the landscape.

I guess for me the fun of the adventure is not knowing what could be right around the next turn.

For many others it appears to be, not knowing what could be right around the next turn, just as long as I know I have zero chance of dying or someone else getting something I don't have.
#51 Jul 28 2013 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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It's feeling like you'd only be happy with the MMO equivalent of a horror movie where rounding the corner will randomly get you hacked to death by Jason. What's learned by that? Don't go there? Okay, but if it's random enough to not happen all the time and in random locations? At what point does it become simply trolling your own customers?

Those who crave that kind of fear or challenge still have options to experience it even if the surrounding environment seems too... friendly. Unequip your armor. Having zero defenses in a mid-level zone will certainly be a risk if you catch aggro from some unexpected source. Same applies to making things more challenging. I know the usual retort here is, "But I earned my stuff and I want to use it...!" So use it, just don't get salty because not everyone's idea of entertainment is to pay to get kicked in the crotch by the game they're playing.
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