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I hope there will be world bossesFollow

#52 Jul 29 2013 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
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Jeraziah wrote:
I actually didn't mind the ridiculous spawn conditions of certain NM's, it made actually getting the item they drop feel so incredibly worth it. I can still remember the exact moment when I saw Argus spawn, killed it and got a Peacock Amulet...it was a pretty thrilling moment. Same goes for many other NM camping experiences. I realize not everyone has no life like me and can invest that kind of time into camping something though, but it was still something I did actually enjoy from FFXI.


I don't or didn't mind NM spawns in FFXI either. It was clunky having to level RNG and THF just to get your foot in the door (unless you got lucky) but it was still some of the most fun moments. NM hunting got my heart pumping much like open world PvP. It just took way too long for a spawn and drop.

...and that being said I never got a drop from a famous NM, just Bloodpool Vorax when I would farm Pashow Marshlands. All of my equipment I farmed gil for and chose my time doing that (which I didn't mind doing).

FATEs are the perfect avenue for NMs like these, but I'd also like wandering world NMs that you can kill for your hunting log, and perhaps get seals to get cool gear.

Again I've always liked farming for things, and I guess I'd rather farm seals or something to get gear rather than just gil.
#53 Jul 29 2013 at 1:57 AM Rating: Good
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ClydesShadow wrote:
sandpark wrote:

D, There are reasons to explore maps already. Aetherytes, dungeons, new zones, cities, fates,etc. The world itself should provide incentive to explore and if it doesn't SE needs to add vista achievements, quests, or redesign the landscape so it does. Why should the cost of fast travel be expensive? The option exist to go the long way if you wish. And if you don't wish too, well that just sucks. I'd like to travel the world more often than I do. But the cost of travel in terms of time is too great. One to five times flying somewhere is ok, but if I travel there constantly, yeah it wears you down.

I offered a solution with a monster hunter alternative. It provides an avenue for players who want this content while not funneling the players who don't care for notorious monster type systems. The only con would be that you want to tackle this on let's say dragoon.
This type of system I put forward let's you get what you want and Rinsui gets what he wants.


Those reasons listed for map exploring are almost exclusively one time occurrences. After you've visited a dungeon or aetheryte a single time, there is never a reason to return. I never said the cost of travel should be high, I merely mentioned that currently the time expense outweighs the monetary expense. That's the reason we're having this conversation in the first place... People were saying they don't want world bosses because of the time cost (and some others because "it just isn't fair" excuse me while I get my violin to play these people a sad, sad song.)

Nonetheless, I will always advocate more content over less content. Beyond the fact that some people are diametrically opposed to it, I don't see how it decreases the experience of the game...

One last point, with the new "everyone can join the action" battle system... If these rare spawns did occur, if they were made strong enough, it is likely numerous people would be able to join the action and share in the loot.

No you visit those quite frequently. And there could be more reasons to visit those places than what we have currently Unless ideas or preferences limit those areas.

It decreases the experience of the game by funneling players into notorious monster content. If the drops are worthwhile anyone will try and pursue it and if they aren't worthwhile players will find it trivial. Worldwide content of this type that affects all classes will lead right back to the scenarios that people have been pointed out in EQ and FFXI. This isn't FFXI-2, I know some people want it to be, but it is not.

A monster hunter class, call it beastmaster where notorious monster content is built for specifically. Adds this experience that you seek and doesn't enforce or encourage everyone on the whole to partake in the said content.

Edited, Jul 29th 2013 3:58am by sandpark
#54 Jul 29 2013 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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ClydesShadow wrote:
Hairspray wrote:
I don't know, I don't think they are going to be making anymore unbeatable mobs...

Reminds me of Absolute Virtue from FFXI to be honest...

I remember hearing about linkshells fighting him for over 24 hours straight before finally giving up... that's too much, seriously...

I hope they learned NOT to do this from their mistakes in FFXI... that and the 24 hour HNM camping. Such a ridiculous waste of time IMHO.



I never understood why people have something against content like this?

If you don't want to do it, that's fine. No one is forcing you to participate. On the other hand, what about the people that like trying to go for extremely difficult content like this.... and before anyone says anything about gil farmers camping it, just make it rare/ex, problem solved.


Edit: I'm not talking about unbeatable content... I can understand why that is pretty much useless and adds nothing to the game. I'm more referring to extremely rare spawns.


Edited, Jul 28th 2013 11:44am by ClydesShadow

You're right, I won't be doing this type of content again.

I spent years in an HNMLS on Asura server for FFXI... and we camped all HNM's every day. I can't get all of that wasted time back now, and I absolutely refuse to do that ever again.

The only reason I was able to do it was I was attending college at the time, and I would be studying while I had the game up and running and our LS was HNM camping. I could hear any <call>s that went out and would respond immediately if we had claimed the NM.

But I'm not an irresponsible student any more... you can have any HNM's if FFXIV decides to put them into this game too... I won't try to take them from you.
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#55 Jul 29 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
It's feeling like you'd only be happy with the MMO equivalent of a horror movie where rounding the corner will randomly get you hacked to death by Jason. What's learned by that? Don't go there? Okay, but if it's random enough to not happen all the time and in random locations? At what point does it become simply trolling your own customers?


That game has already been made.. Its called Demon;s Souls or Dark Souls.. and guess what... people love it
#56 Jul 29 2013 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Seriha wrote:
It's feeling like you'd only be happy with the MMO equivalent of a horror movie where rounding the corner will randomly get you hacked to death by Jason. What's learned by that? Don't go there? Okay, but if it's random enough to not happen all the time and in random locations? At what point does it become simply trolling your own customers?


That game has already been made.. Its called Demon;s Souls or Dark Souls.. and guess what... people love it


So go play Demon'/Dark Souls then? Smiley: tongue Just messing, although I think having the HNMs be able to spawn almost anywhere is a bit much... perhaps just anywhere there are mobs of X level. Or maybe even vary it up where some are random, some are forced spawn from trigger item heirarchies (similar to abyssea style), some have enemy kills requirements (for instance, every 4,000-6,000 kills of X mob spawns an HNM), etc.

Honestly though, I don't really mind the idea of HNM's, but only if the gear obtained from them can be done in other ways as well. Perhaps make several avenues to obtain it... like through endgame crafting (more than just simple recipes, perhaps having to combine with multiple crafters to produce and a reasonable failure rate), HNM's, AND another way like raiding. If there's multiple ways I wouldn't even mind if one of the avenues was a token/mark grind kind of system. The more options, the better.
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#57 Jul 29 2013 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
It's feeling like you'd only be happy with the MMO equivalent of a horror movie where rounding the corner will randomly get you hacked to death by Jason. What's learned by that? Don't go there? Okay, but if it's random enough to not happen all the time and in random locations? At what point does it become simply trolling your own customers?

Those who crave that kind of fear or challenge still have options to experience it even if the surrounding environment seems too... friendly. Unequip your armor. Having zero defenses in a mid-level zone will certainly be a risk if you catch aggro from some unexpected source. Same applies to making things more challenging. I know the usual retort here is, "But I earned my stuff and I want to use it...!" So use it, just don't get salty because not everyone's idea of entertainment is to pay to get kicked in the crotch by the game they're playing.


Sigh... if you can't understand that was I was saying was conceptual and not literal then there is no point in this conversation.
#58 Jul 29 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Is there an info out there as to NM's dropping gear still? Because I enjoyed the days where I would team up with my LS and we would go hunting Kokoroon for his armor or Cactuar Jack. I saw a couple of the old NM's as FATE's like the Prince of Pestilence but I don't believe I got any drops after taking him down.
#59 Jul 29 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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StycianLeo wrote:
Is there an info out there as to NM's dropping gear still? Because I enjoyed the days where I would team up with my LS and we would go hunting Kokoroon for his armor or Cactuar Jack. I saw a couple of the old NM's as FATE's like the Prince of Pestilence but I don't believe I got any drops after taking him down.


FATEs, at least the lower level ones, don't drop gear. No idea about 35+ ones. They do give you gobs of seals once you're in a Grand Company though, at least they did in Phase 3.
#60 Jul 29 2013 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
It's feeling like you'd only be happy with the MMO equivalent of a horror movie where rounding the corner will randomly get you hacked to death by Jason. What's learned by that? Don't go there? Okay, but if it's random enough to not happen all the time and in random locations? At what point does it become simply trolling your own customers?

Those who crave that kind of fear or challenge still have options to experience it even if the surrounding environment seems too... friendly. Unequip your armor. Having zero defenses in a mid-level zone will certainly be a risk if you catch aggro from some unexpected source. Same applies to making things more challenging. I know the usual retort here is, "But I earned my stuff and I want to use it...!" So use it, just don't get salty because not everyone's idea of entertainment is to pay to get kicked in the crotch by the game they're playing.



That's ridiculous. You aren't even responding to what he said, but rather to your own interpretation of such, twisted to give yourself some clever (?) rhetoric. Come on. Telling him to unequip his gear and get aggro "from an unexpected source" (because wearing less gear totally makes new enemies spawn randomly and attack, right?) You completely missed the point here, and hence your retort kind of completely doesn't make sense.

All he's saying is he wants a little bit of the unexpected in his game experience. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.


It just happens to be extremely difficult to implement successfully. Certainly not impossible by any means. Really, as things stand now, the best way to achieve this sort of thing is play a game with good open world PvP. Too bad there aren't many of those left.

I still think (and this is directed at some of the other responses) that it's foolish to dismiss Clyde's ideas, and especially dismiss them by using XI as an example! XI did dynamic content (campaign) horribly badly, yet Rift came along with newer tech and improved on it dramatically. Who's to say the same thing can't happen with random NM/world boss spawns, or any other of a host of ideas that no one wants to explore because "XI tried it and it failed" Come on.

As for the monster hunter idea. It's great. I love it. I think maybe they already did it in that game called Monster Hunter though ;) but seriously, I like the idea of an mmo without a traditional economy. Strictly trading monster drops and crafting. No money. I have no idea how to do it but it's another one of those crazy ideas that someone will someday implement successfully.


PS I consider Dark Souls to be far and away one of the best modern RPGs, and i wouldn't call it crotch-kicking gameplay. It's challenging and punishes bad or inattentive gameplay, but that's completely different than a game with poorly designed and frustrating mechanics.





Edited, Jul 29th 2013 7:51pm by Llester

Edited, Jul 29th 2013 7:56pm by Llester
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#61 Jul 29 2013 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:

As for the monster hunter idea. It's great. I love it. I think maybe they already did it in that game called Monster Hunter though ;) but seriously, I like the idea of an mmo without a traditional economy. Strictly trading monster drops and crafting. No money. I have no idea how to do it but it's another one of those crazy ideas that someone will someday implement successfully.


PS I consider Dark Souls to be far and away one of the best modern RPGs, and i wouldn't call it crotch-kicking gameplay. It's challenging and punishes bad or inattentive gameplay, but that's completely different than a game with poorly designed and frustrating mechanics.

Well it's too late for them to do a global economy like that for FFXIV. But I think they could pull it off along with the monster hunter concept. :)

I like Dark Souls as well. It doesn't emphasize twitch but does warrant attentive gameplay if you wish to be efficient.
#62 Jul 30 2013 at 12:39 AM Rating: Good
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Sigh... if you can't understand that was I was saying was conceptual and not literal then there is no point in this conversation.

See, I have a bit of a beef with people who clamor for something to be a certain way, but don't provide good methods to achieve that. You may have attempted that with the notion of "truly randomized" NMs, but it's something myself and others picked apart for reasons of loot, exploitation, fair challenge, and even peer pressure. You might feel I don't get you because I happen to employ a bit of snark and sarcasm when addressing a myriad of tired MMO matters, but the downside of "getting it" doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
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All he's saying is he wants a little bit of the unexpected in his game experience. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

He very much demanded more danger from the world because he believed exploring in its current iteration lacked that. I told him exactly how he could up the danger threshold without incessantly dragging people who don't want it down with him. He can, in turn, go on to reference Demon/Dark Souls all he likes and how a select group enjoy it, but there is also predictability to the game and its dangers. First time's a shock, sure. Next few times might be a challenge. Eventually, it can become an annoyance. Hence the whole, "At what point does it become trolling your customers?" line. Let's not forget that this game is subscription-based, too. Aion suffered as a P2P game in the West because the PvP was terribly imbalanced and gankers were griefing people left and right. Player-run or AI doesn't change the frustration of victims when their only choice is to do something else and hope the problem isn't there later.

If the argument is more, "I don't want leveling in the same zone twice to be the exact same experience!" then I'd classify that a different animal and a problem solved by ways better than random monsters that'll eat your face just because. But as someone who's also played Rift and GW2, their ideas of a world changing based on dynamic events didn't go very far, and to be honest, toed that line with trolling players by locking out waypoints or quest hubs if an individual wasn't enough to overcome the challenge while there was zero incentive for outside helpers to rush to the rescue, too. Not an unsolvable problem, but it's also something I'd say a zone needs to be built from the ground up for and unlikely the case for the XIV we've seen up until now.

Edited, Jul 30th 2013 3:01am by Seriha
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#63 Jul 30 2013 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
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He very much demanded more danger from the world because he believed exploring in its current iteration lacked that. I told him exactly how he could up the danger threshold without incessantly dragging people who don't want it down with him.


It seemed more like you were just trashing his idea because you don't like it. And sorry, but your idea of "adding danger" is such a massive copout. Running around without gear isn't any more difficult in this world. It's incredibly easy to avoid a good majority of the mobs just by going around them. You aren't adding to the danger element by removing gear, you're just purposely gimping yourself for the off-chance that you get aggro and can't outrun it on a chocobo. Was Clyde's idea perfectly fleshed out and foolproof? No, as has been mentioned. It was still a decent starting point however. It seems more like it's just not what you specifically want in a game, so you decided to throw in a cheesy horror movie analogy and then basically throw salt on the wound with the "just don't wear gear!" argument.

Like I said in my last post, open-world HNM's anywhere does seem like a bit much, but having them in appropriate areas, with varying spawn conditions, and with drops that can be found elsewhere sounds like a great idea to me. There are a fair amount of people, not even just hardcore players, who like that kind of content, and if you make it so that they aren't the only way to get gear, it opens that content up to more than just the hardcore campers, especially if you make the gear from them untradeable to combat RMT.
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#64 Jul 30 2013 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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I had a longer post written up, but insomnia's kicking my **** so it probably wasn't going to come out as well as I'd like. Instead, I'll pose the following question with a bit to follow:

Can you expect equal rewards from content of unequal difficulties?

Now let me specify.

Can you expect equal rewards from content you can solo and content that requires 16+ players?

If the answer is no, then you are not offering alternative gear, and the potential rarity and difficulty of rare spawns invites the same ego raiders carry in demanding their own efforts yield superior loot no matter how much effort someone puts in elsewhere. R/Ex does not guarantee people still won't sell party slots for the chance for someone to get things. You'll still have the same logistics and personality issues that keep some from the raiding game away from the world spawn game. My ultimate take is that equal, alternative sources does not harm those who do things "the hard way", but poorly designed and positioned (H)NMs can harm those doing things "the easy way". It risks further muddying of the gear hierarchy and basically supports a system of haves and have-nots.

Maybe I'm too cynical in believing people don't want challenge alone when they ask for hard(er) stuff, but you can't deny the presence of sub-communities within games that thrive on the negative aspects of elitism and mocking those beneath them. I'd rather give no chance for that kind of sh*t to take root. And I have no delusion that'll ruffle feathers, if only for a time. All it'll take is a dev ballsy enough to do it and snub a typically vocal minority*, because Rift or GW2 sure didn't. Yoshi has shown me no signs he intends to with XIV, either.

* At the end of the post you get the head honcho of Rift saying that raiders are the game's smallest portion of the community. I am inclined to believe this more of a universal truth based on observing others and participating in numerous MMO communities. There are gross exaggerations on difficulty, for better or worse, as well as plenty of assumptions that go around for what people have done within these games. In the past, Daglar also noted that only 0.03% of Rift's players maxed Planar Attunement (sort of like FFXI merits) even though you'll get people claiming "everyone does it" and guilds demanding PA progress of an often unreasonable level. Despite this, I still can't quite wrap my head around why raiders in Rift have 3 more tiers of gear above the best open world or non-raid crafted counterparts. My only guess is too much value is still being put into the concept of prestige as relates to my earlier question in this post, which I know contributed to my dropping sub periodically before the game went F2P because I seriously had nothing to do with my warrior because I'd been arbitrarily gear capped by the gameplay hierarchy.

Edit: And while standing in the shower, the thought crossed my mind that hard content has been promised. If the only hang-up is that it's instanced or tied to FATEs, well, I think we're in a good place.

Edited, Jul 30th 2013 10:34am by Seriha
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#65 Jul 30 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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ClydesShadow wrote:
sandpark wrote:

D, There are reasons to explore maps already. Aetherytes, dungeons, new zones, cities, fates,etc. The world itself should provide incentive to explore and if it doesn't SE needs to add vista achievements, quests, or redesign the landscape so it does. Why should the cost of fast travel be expensive? The option exist to go the long way if you wish. And if you don't wish too, well that just sucks. I'd like to travel the world more often than I do. But the cost of travel in terms of time is too great. One to five times flying somewhere is ok, but if I travel there constantly, yeah it wears you down.

I offered a solution with a monster hunter alternative. It provides an avenue for players who want this content while not funneling the players who don't care for notorious monster type systems. The only con would be that you want to tackle this on let's say dragoon.
This type of system I put forward let's you get what you want and Rinsui gets what he wants.


Those reasons listed for map exploring are almost exclusively one time occurrences. After you've visited a dungeon or aetheryte a single time, there is never a reason to return. I never said the cost of travel should be high, I merely mentioned that currently the time expense outweighs the monetary expense. That's the reason we're having this conversation in the first place... People were saying they don't want world bosses because of the time cost (and some others because "it just isn't fair" excuse me while I get my violin to play these people a sad, sad song.)

Nonetheless, I will always advocate more content over less content. Beyond the fact that some people are diametrically opposed to it, I don't see how it decreases the experience of the game...

One last point, with the new "everyone can join the action" battle system... If these rare spawns did occur, if they were made strong enough, it is likely numerous people would be able to join the action and share in the loot.


Skyrim and Oblivion had these issues as well... that Fast Travelling was just TOO easy.

Do you know what their response was? Don't use it if you don't want to. It's completely by CHOICE.

Therefore, for the people who prefer to teleport and such, let them use it, for the people who wish to walk, go for it.

Though I do agree the game should definitely have more content and, while I'm not used to the World Boss concept, I'm definitely for it. As long as it remains optional, it shouldn't hinder anyone's experience.
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#66 Jul 30 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
I had a longer post written up, but insomnia's kicking my **** so it probably wasn't going to come out as well as I'd like. Instead, I'll pose the following question with a bit to follow:

Can you expect equal rewards from content of unequal difficulties?

Now let me specify.

Can you expect equal rewards from content you can solo and content that requires 16+ players?

If the answer is no, then you are not offering alternative gear, and the potential rarity and difficulty of rare spawns invites the same ego raiders carry in demanding their own efforts yield superior loot no matter how much effort someone puts in elsewhere. R/Ex does not guarantee people still won't sell party slots for the chance for someone to get things. You'll still have the same logistics and personality issues that keep some from the raiding game away from the world spawn game. My ultimate take is that equal, alternative sources does not harm those who do things "the hard way", but poorly designed and positioned (H)NMs can harm those doing things "the easy way". It risks further muddying of the gear hierarchy and basically supports a system of haves and have-nots.

Maybe I'm too cynical in believing people don't want challenge alone when they ask for hard(er) stuff, but you can't deny the presence of sub-communities within games that thrive on the negative aspects of elitism and mocking those beneath them. I'd rather give no chance for that kind of sh*t to take root. And I have no delusion that'll ruffle feathers, if only for a time. All it'll take is a dev ballsy enough to do it and snub a typically vocal minority*, because Rift or GW2 sure didn't. Yoshi has shown me no signs he intends to with XIV, either.


This is why I proposed several methods of gaining gear. This would allow them to scale how quickly you can get the gear with how challenging the content is. For instance, let's say there are world HNMs, and they are SUPER hard. Like, it takes a very skilled group to bring them down. However, for that hard work, the odds are very high that you will get 1-3 very nice drops.

Now you compare that to raiding. I know a lot of people don't love token/mark/whatever grinding, but I do think that as long as it's not the only viable option of gearing, it can be very effective. So you make your raids drop tokens or whatever, and maybe have a much smaller chance at outright dropping the gear itself.

Then you also add a crafting/gathering avenue, where gatherers can dig up rare/ex materials (very infrequently), maybe even as part of a repeatable questline, that they can then either combine with other crafters to make the gear or possibly make themselves if they have all crafts required to make it (multiple 50's).

Now you have three avenues through which to get your gear. Crafters can still get theirs, albeit it will take a while to get all mats and have it crafted. Or, you can raid for it and slowly progress towards it or get lucky on a drop. Or, you can do HNM battles for it and have a higher chance of seeing it drop, if you can beat the challenge. Heck, you could even throw in a fourth avenue for the all-around players, where HNM's and raid bosses can also drop mats for crafters as well.

Does this system completely eliminate competition on the HNMs? No, probably not, which is why you make the spawns considerably more random or conditional based, or some even trigger item based. But it at least gives enough options for all types of players to obtain their gear.

All I'm really saying is, don't discount content in the game simply because it's not your cup of tea. You really can add stuff like this to the game as long as it's done well and balanced, which it absolutely can be. Everyone just thinks of the worst case scenario like in FFXI where for YEARS the HNMs were the only way to obtain the gear and the camping, botting, hacking was attrocious. That could be mostly rectified with a system that has multiple paths to gear acquisition. Nothing will be perfect, but I definitely think it can work.
#67 Jul 30 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think FATEs give that kind of fun without having the issues of trying to camp them caused by exclusive claim. Bubbly Bernie is one example, there is another near Camp Tranquil that is a giant golem.
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#68 Jul 30 2013 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with BartelX... as I mentioned before, if you don't like it, don't do it. But on the other side the content shouldn't be forced.

I don't agree with BartelX's idea completely, but I understand the system he is trying to communicate, and if it's done right, it can be a good system, but I doubt we're going to see a system like that in FFXIV anyway.
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#69 Jul 30 2013 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I think FATEs give that kind of fun without having the issues of trying to camp them caused by exclusive claim. Bubbly Bernie is one example, there is another near Camp Tranquil that is a giant golem.

There's an enormous Ochu too back in a corner of one of the Shroud zones. Can't remember which one right now, but it's near the crashed airship with Biggs and Wedge that's part of the storyline quests for Gridania.
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#70 Jul 30 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Now you have three avenues through which to get your gear. Crafters can still get theirs, albeit it will take a while to get all mats and have it crafted. Or, you can raid for it and slowly progress towards it or get lucky on a drop. Or, you can do HNM battles for it and have a higher chance of seeing it drop, if you can beat the challenge. Heck, you could even throw in a fourth avenue for the all-around players, where HNM's and raid bosses can also drop mats for crafters as well.

Which I'm generally for. Favorites can't be played, though. It's something I don't trust a dev to not do, nor do I expect players to not yearn for their style to be the best way because Competition!(tm). I'd love for Yoshi to prove me wrong here, but his own confession of being a hardcore MMOer and that he would've designed an entirely different game if not FF themed leaves me fearful that favorites will be played. We'll see.
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#71 Jul 30 2013 at 10:30 AM Rating: Default
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Stilivan wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
sandpark wrote:

D, There are reasons to explore maps already. Aetherytes, dungeons, new zones, cities, fates,etc. The world itself should provide incentive to explore and if it doesn't SE needs to add vista achievements, quests, or redesign the landscape so it does. Why should the cost of fast travel be expensive? The option exist to go the long way if you wish. And if you don't wish too, well that just sucks. I'd like to travel the world more often than I do. But the cost of travel in terms of time is too great. One to five times flying somewhere is ok, but if I travel there constantly, yeah it wears you down.

I offered a solution with a monster hunter alternative. It provides an avenue for players who want this content while not funneling the players who don't care for notorious monster type systems. The only con would be that you want to tackle this on let's say dragoon.
This type of system I put forward let's you get what you want and Rinsui gets what he wants.


Those reasons listed for map exploring are almost exclusively one time occurrences. After you've visited a dungeon or aetheryte a single time, there is never a reason to return. I never said the cost of travel should be high, I merely mentioned that currently the time expense outweighs the monetary expense. That's the reason we're having this conversation in the first place... People were saying they don't want world bosses because of the time cost (and some others because "it just isn't fair" excuse me while I get my violin to play these people a sad, sad song.)

Nonetheless, I will always advocate more content over less content. Beyond the fact that some people are diametrically opposed to it, I don't see how it decreases the experience of the game...

One last point, with the new "everyone can join the action" battle system... If these rare spawns did occur, if they were made strong enough, it is likely numerous people would be able to join the action and share in the loot.


Skyrim and Oblivion had these issues as well... that Fast Travelling was just TOO easy.

Do you know what their response was? Don't use it if you don't want to. It's completely by CHOICE.

Therefore, for the people who prefer to teleport and such, let them use it, for the people who wish to walk, go for it.

Though I do agree the game should definitely have more content and, while I'm not used to the World Boss concept, I'm definitely for it. As long as it remains optional, it shouldn't hinder anyone's experience.



"Do you know what their response was? Don't use it if you don't want to. It's completely by CHOICE.

Therefore, for the people who prefer to teleport and such, let them use it, for the people who wish to walk, go for it. "


Great advice except theres one major issue with that.... if you wanna walk as opposed to fast travel.. you gotta listen to the other 5 ppl in your party you decided to fast travel whine and ****** about you taking too long


it should be like FFXI wa sin which you had to walk to just about everywhere at least once after that you UNLOCKED teh ability to fast travel (i.e finding the teleport crystals, unlocking the MAWs, outpost supply delivery for warps etc etc Id be completely fine with that
#72 Jul 30 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Stilivan wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
sandpark wrote:

D, There are reasons to explore maps already. Aetherytes, dungeons, new zones, cities, fates,etc. The world itself should provide incentive to explore and if it doesn't SE needs to add vista achievements, quests, or redesign the landscape so it does. Why should the cost of fast travel be expensive? The option exist to go the long way if you wish. And if you don't wish too, well that just sucks. I'd like to travel the world more often than I do. But the cost of travel in terms of time is too great. One to five times flying somewhere is ok, but if I travel there constantly, yeah it wears you down.

I offered a solution with a monster hunter alternative. It provides an avenue for players who want this content while not funneling the players who don't care for notorious monster type systems. The only con would be that you want to tackle this on let's say dragoon.
This type of system I put forward let's you get what you want and Rinsui gets what he wants.


Those reasons listed for map exploring are almost exclusively one time occurrences. After you've visited a dungeon or aetheryte a single time, there is never a reason to return. I never said the cost of travel should be high, I merely mentioned that currently the time expense outweighs the monetary expense. That's the reason we're having this conversation in the first place... People were saying they don't want world bosses because of the time cost (and some others because "it just isn't fair" excuse me while I get my violin to play these people a sad, sad song.)

Nonetheless, I will always advocate more content over less content. Beyond the fact that some people are diametrically opposed to it, I don't see how it decreases the experience of the game...

One last point, with the new "everyone can join the action" battle system... If these rare spawns did occur, if they were made strong enough, it is likely numerous people would be able to join the action and share in the loot.


Skyrim and Oblivion had these issues as well... that Fast Travelling was just TOO easy.

Do you know what their response was? Don't use it if you don't want to. It's completely by CHOICE.

Therefore, for the people who prefer to teleport and such, let them use it, for the people who wish to walk, go for it.

Though I do agree the game should definitely have more content and, while I'm not used to the World Boss concept, I'm definitely for it. As long as it remains optional, it shouldn't hinder anyone's experience.



"Do you know what their response was? Don't use it if you don't want to. It's completely by CHOICE.

Therefore, for the people who prefer to teleport and such, let them use it, for the people who wish to walk, go for it. "


Great advice except theres one major issue with that.... if you wanna walk as opposed to fast travel.. you gotta listen to the other 5 ppl in your party you decided to fast travel whine and ****** about you taking too long


it should be like FFXI wa sin which you had to walk to just about everywhere at least once after that you UNLOCKED teh ability to fast travel (i.e finding the teleport crystals, unlocking the MAWs, outpost supply delivery for warps etc etc Id be completely fine with that


Well, if you have five people waiting on you, and you can fast travel, but refuse to use it, who's in the wrong at this point? You're not suggesting for this reason alone that everyone should be forced to travel right? Well okay then. On your own time, when traveling to other locations, choose not to fast travel.

I'd respond to your other part of your post if it made more sense. Smiley: eek
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#73 Jul 30 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Default
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Stilivan wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Stilivan wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
sandpark wrote:

D, There are reasons to explore maps already. Aetherytes, dungeons, new zones, cities, fates,etc. The world itself should provide incentive to explore and if it doesn't SE needs to add vista achievements, quests, or redesign the landscape so it does. Why should the cost of fast travel be expensive? The option exist to go the long way if you wish. And if you don't wish too, well that just sucks. I'd like to travel the world more often than I do. But the cost of travel in terms of time is too great. One to five times flying somewhere is ok, but if I travel there constantly, yeah it wears you down.

I offered a solution with a monster hunter alternative. It provides an avenue for players who want this content while not funneling the players who don't care for notorious monster type systems. The only con would be that you want to tackle this on let's say dragoon.
This type of system I put forward let's you get what you want and Rinsui gets what he wants.


Those reasons listed for map exploring are almost exclusively one time occurrences. After you've visited a dungeon or aetheryte a single time, there is never a reason to return. I never said the cost of travel should be high, I merely mentioned that currently the time expense outweighs the monetary expense. That's the reason we're having this conversation in the first place... People were saying they don't want world bosses because of the time cost (and some others because "it just isn't fair" excuse me while I get my violin to play these people a sad, sad song.)

Nonetheless, I will always advocate more content over less content. Beyond the fact that some people are diametrically opposed to it, I don't see how it decreases the experience of the game...

One last point, with the new "everyone can join the action" battle system... If these rare spawns did occur, if they were made strong enough, it is likely numerous people would be able to join the action and share in the loot.


Skyrim and Oblivion had these issues as well... that Fast Travelling was just TOO easy.

Do you know what their response was? Don't use it if you don't want to. It's completely by CHOICE.

Therefore, for the people who prefer to teleport and such, let them use it, for the people who wish to walk, go for it.

Though I do agree the game should definitely have more content and, while I'm not used to the World Boss concept, I'm definitely for it. As long as it remains optional, it shouldn't hinder anyone's experience.



"Do you know what their response was? Don't use it if you don't want to. It's completely by CHOICE.

Therefore, for the people who prefer to teleport and such, let them use it, for the people who wish to walk, go for it. "


Great advice except theres one major issue with that.... if you wanna walk as opposed to fast travel.. you gotta listen to the other 5 ppl in your party you decided to fast travel whine and ****** about you taking too long


it should be like FFXI wa sin which you had to walk to just about everywhere at least once after that you UNLOCKED teh ability to fast travel (i.e finding the teleport crystals, unlocking the MAWs, outpost supply delivery for warps etc etc Id be completely fine with that


Well, if you have five people waiting on you, and you can fast travel, but refuse to use it, who's in the wrong at this point? You're not suggesting for this reason alone that everyone should be forced to travel right? Well okay then. On your own time, when traveling to other locations, choose not to fast travel.

I'd respond to your other part of your post if it made more sense. Smiley: eek



well lets see fast travel only applies to instance dungeons and levequests.. instance dungeons that require a party to enter... its not like you can freely enter them sand explore them like a TRADITIONAL mmo.. sooo what reason would i have for exploration on my own time? which is another bad thing... Why have a vast open world if theres no reason/incentive to explore? (hence the world bosses and NMs thing)
#74 Jul 30 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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If there are incentives out there for you to explore that are completely optional, then exploration is encouraged, it's a choice, and it's not being forced. Forcing people to explore is stupid. Refusing to explore because it isn't necessary to you but wanting the game to make you do it is stupid. Play the game how you would like to. MMOs aren't about everyone having the same experience. You may like to explore but others may hate it. So go ahead and explore, travel town to town without teleporting, and whatever. In an MMO you can do whatever you want... let's keep it that way.

Edited, Jul 30th 2013 12:54pm by Stilivan
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#75 Jul 30 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
it should be like FFXI wa sin which you had to walk to just about everywhere at least once after that you UNLOCKED teh ability to fast travel (i.e finding the teleport crystals, unlocking the MAWs, outpost supply delivery for warps etc etc Id be completely fine with that


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but XIV is like that already. You can't be teleported by someone else to a place you haven't been yet. I think even most dungeons require you at least talk to the NPC outside before you can enter/warp to it.
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#76 Jul 30 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
it should be like FFXI wa sin which you had to walk to just about everywhere at least once after that you UNLOCKED teh ability to fast travel (i.e finding the teleport crystals, unlocking the MAWs, outpost supply delivery for warps etc etc Id be completely fine with that


Um, it is like that. You can't fast travel to any crystal you haven't been to already, nor are you allowed to hop on someone elses teleport if you haven't visited it yet. You can't use airships until level 15 and completing storyline. You can't use chocobos until level 20 and after completing 3 dungeons and the Ifrit battle. Heck, even the dungeons you have to at least visit once and complete the quest (talk to someone near the entrance) to even gain access. So yes, you still have to unlock most stuff.

The major differences are: any job can teleport instead of only allowing whm to do it (thus negating RMT to make money via tele-taxi), it costs gil which helps remove a bit of money from the economy, and there are a lot more telepoints... which is a VERY good thing imo.

edit: Wint beat me to it. Smiley: motz

Edited, Jul 30th 2013 1:22pm by BartelX
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#77 Jul 30 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
it should be like FFXI wa sin which you had to walk to just about everywhere at least once after that you UNLOCKED teh ability to fast travel (i.e finding the teleport crystals, unlocking the MAWs, outpost supply delivery for warps etc etc Id be completely fine with that


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but XIV is like that already. You can't be teleported by someone else to a place you haven't been yet. I think even most dungeons require you at least talk to the NPC outside before you can enter/warp to it.



what about levelquests? when 1.0 cam eout i was under the impression that you walk up to a crystal in town and itl automatically telepotrs you to every levequest which tajkes places in areas that can be accessed by foot/chocobo (so theyre not in instanced areas)?
#78 Jul 30 2013 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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No they don't work like that at all Smiley: confused
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#79 Jul 30 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Wint wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
it should be like FFXI wa sin which you had to walk to just about everywhere at least once after that you UNLOCKED teh ability to fast travel (i.e finding the teleport crystals, unlocking the MAWs, outpost supply delivery for warps etc etc Id be completely fine with that


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but XIV is like that already. You can't be teleported by someone else to a place you haven't been yet. I think even most dungeons require you at least talk to the NPC outside before you can enter/warp to it.


what about levelquests? when 1.0 cam eout i was under the impression that you walk up to a crystal in town and itl automatically telepotrs you to every levequest which tajkes places in areas that can be accessed by foot/chocobo (so theyre not in instanced areas)?


Not to sound rude, but I really haven't got a clue what you are talking about. You were never automatically tele'd anywhere from what I remember in 1.0. You could spend anima to tele there once you had unlocked them, but it wasn't ever free. Now, if you unlock a crystal, you can tele there to do levequests at that camp for gil. Again, you still have to unlock the crystal, and also be a high enough level to do the levequests at that camp.
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#80 Jul 30 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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In 1.0, you had to have attuned yourself to each Aetheryte Crystal and Shard before you could teleport there. However, you could be teleported to the crystals by someone in your party even if you didn't have the attunement. I think they have changed that for ARR right?

Speaking of fast travel in Oblivion and Skyrim, its funny that people complain about it. I just started playing Morrowind again and the reason I am not playing more is the lack of fast travel. I'm desperately trying to find up to date mods that allow fast travel. Having to run back routes I have already run multiple times isn't immersive. its a gigantic pain in the ***.
#81 Jul 30 2013 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
In 1.0, you had to have attuned yourself to each Aetheryte Crystal and Shard before you could teleport there. However, you could be teleported to the crystals by someone in your party even if you didn't have the attunement. I think they have changed that for ARR right?

Speaking of fast travel in Oblivion and Skyrim, its funny that people complain about it. I just started playing Morrowind again and the reason I am not playing more is the lack of fast travel. I'm desperately trying to find up to date mods that allow fast travel. Having to run back routes I have already run multiple times isn't immersive. its a gigantic pain in the ***.


Yes.

I'm still not sure why he's thinking Levequests teleported you to where to start them. You have to run to where they start, albeit not a great distance from the Levemete.
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#82 Jul 30 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Arjuncorpse wrote:
In 1.0, you had to have attuned yourself to each Aetheryte Crystal and Shard before you could teleport there. However, you could be teleported to the crystals by someone in your party even if you didn't have the attunement. I think they have changed that for ARR right?

Speaking of fast travel in Oblivion and Skyrim, its funny that people complain about it. I just started playing Morrowind again and the reason I am not playing more is the lack of fast travel. I'm desperately trying to find up to date mods that allow fast travel. Having to run back routes I have already run multiple times isn't immersive. its a gigantic pain in the ***.


Yes.

I'm still not sure why he's thinking Levequests teleported you to where to start them. You have to run to where they start, albeit not a great distance from the Levemete.


Maybe he is confused because it teleports you to the levemate after the quest is finished. (By choice)
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#83 Jul 30 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Wint wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
it should be like FFXI wa sin which you had to walk to just about everywhere at least once after that you UNLOCKED teh ability to fast travel (i.e finding the teleport crystals, unlocking the MAWs, outpost supply delivery for warps etc etc Id be completely fine with that


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but XIV is like that already. You can't be teleported by someone else to a place you haven't been yet. I think even most dungeons require you at least talk to the NPC outside before you can enter/warp to it.


what about levelquests? when 1.0 cam eout i was under the impression that you walk up to a crystal in town and itl automatically telepotrs you to every levequest which tajkes places in areas that can be accessed by foot/chocobo (so theyre not in instanced areas)?


Not to sound rude, but I really haven't got a clue what you are talking about. You were never automatically tele'd anywhere from what I remember in 1.0. You could spend anima to tele there once you had unlocked them, but it wasn't ever free. Now, if you unlock a crystal, you can tele there to do levequests at that camp for gil. Again, you still have to unlock the crystal, and also be a high enough level to do the levequests at that camp.

This is how I view travel. First to a couple of times traveling to a particular region in world is magnificent. Having to travel that same road 10,20,30, or 50 times starts to wear me out. Sure you can make each trip a bit different with detours or small talk. Sometimes I take in the wonders and sometimes I wish the trip was over now. It's called options.
#84 Jul 30 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Hairspray wrote:
I spent years in an HNMLS on Asura server for FFXI... and we camped all HNM's every day. I can't get all of that wasted time back now, and I absolutely refuse to do that ever again.

The only reason I was able to do it was I was attending college at the time, and I would be studying while I had the game up and running and our LS was HNM camping. I could hear any <call>s that went out and would respond immediately if we had claimed the NM.

But I'm not an irresponsible student any more... you can have any HNM's if FFXIV decides to put them into this game too... I won't try to take them from you.


You spent years in an HNMLS in XI letting other people do the work while you studied for college. You say it was wasted time, but that sounds pretty productive to me.

Anywho, there's several ways they can implement world boss content that will allow people to participate. It's just a matter of doing it properly. WoW handles world bosses pretty well so even if they just straight jacked the same implementation, it would work quite well.
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#85 Aug 01 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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Stilivan wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
sandpark wrote:

D, There are reasons to explore maps already. Aetherytes, dungeons, new zones, cities, fates,etc. The world itself should provide incentive to explore and if it doesn't SE needs to add vista achievements, quests, or redesign the landscape so it does. Why should the cost of fast travel be expensive? The option exist to go the long way if you wish. And if you don't wish too, well that just sucks. I'd like to travel the world more often than I do. But the cost of travel in terms of time is too great. One to five times flying somewhere is ok, but if I travel there constantly, yeah it wears you down.

I offered a solution with a monster hunter alternative. It provides an avenue for players who want this content while not funneling the players who don't care for notorious monster type systems. The only con would be that you want to tackle this on let's say dragoon.
This type of system I put forward let's you get what you want and Rinsui gets what he wants.


Those reasons listed for map exploring are almost exclusively one time occurrences. After you've visited a dungeon or aetheryte a single time, there is never a reason to return. I never said the cost of travel should be high, I merely mentioned that currently the time expense outweighs the monetary expense. That's the reason we're having this conversation in the first place... People were saying they don't want world bosses because of the time cost (and some others because "it just isn't fair" excuse me while I get my violin to play these people a sad, sad song.)

Nonetheless, I will always advocate more content over less content. Beyond the fact that some people are diametrically opposed to it, I don't see how it decreases the experience of the game...

One last point, with the new "everyone can join the action" battle system... If these rare spawns did occur, if they were made strong enough, it is likely numerous people would be able to join the action and share in the loot.


Skyrim and Oblivion had these issues as well... that Fast Travelling was just TOO easy.

Do you know what their response was? Don't use it if you don't want to. It's completely by CHOICE.

Therefore, for the people who prefer to teleport and such, let them use it, for the people who wish to walk, go for it.

Though I do agree the game should definitely have more content and, while I'm not used to the World Boss concept, I'm definitely for it. As long as it remains optional, it shouldn't hinder anyone's experience.



Stillivan, I certainly don't wish for the elimination of quick travel, it is most certainly a great thing..... What I did say was, let's think of ways to make it so that there is some actual incentive to travel by foot, beyond "ohhh look at the pretty polygons." Meaning, at current I have essentially two option:

A. Quick travel for a small gil fee
B. Walk by foot or chocobo, for what in terms of gil that could be made doing something else, is a considerable time fee (albeit the zones are still fairly quickly traversed.)

Therefore, if i am to choose option B., there needs to be some other incentive provided to the player being the pretty polygons. My world boss idea was just that, an idea. I'm sure there are numerous other ways they could increase the incentive for the player to choose option B. Nonetheless, these ideas in no way hamper the player's ability to choose option A.

As to the world bosses, as Bartel suggested, with some careful planning they could certainly make them pop in the right places while still eliminating the camping effect.

sandpark wrote:
This is how I view travel. First to a couple of times traveling to a particular region in world is magnificent. Having to travel that same road 10,20,30, or 50 times starts to wear me out. Sure you can make each trip a bit different with detours or small talk. Sometimes I take in the wonders and sometimes I wish the trip was over now. It's called options.


This is truly puzzling me. No one and I mean no one is suggesting the elimination of quick travel. We are only offering up ideas to promote traveling by other means.

Edited, Aug 1st 2013 3:10pm by ClydesShadow

Edited, Aug 1st 2013 3:13pm by ClydesShadow
#86 Aug 01 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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There really isn't a viable way to promote traveling by foot/chocobo if there is the option to teleport. It takes more time. People don't want to waste time. The reward for taking the time to travel by foot is that you know your way around the world. Eorzea doesn't turn into a series of teleport points. "Camp Ala Mhigo? Yeah, I have that teleport crystal. No idea how I got there..."
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#87 Aug 01 2013 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Atkascha wrote:
There really isn't a viable way to promote traveling by foot/chocobo if there is the option to teleport. It takes more time. People don't want to waste time. The reward for taking the time to travel by foot is that you know your way around the world. Eorzea doesn't turn into a series of teleport points. "Camp Ala Mhigo? Yeah, I have that teleport crystal. No idea how I got there..."


That makes sense... I mean, if I wanted to send you a message I would type up an email, not send a snail mail. Times change, and technology makes life easier and better.
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#88 Aug 01 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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Atkascha wrote:
There really isn't a viable way to promote traveling by foot/chocobo if there is the option to teleport. It takes more time. People don't want to waste time. The reward for taking the time to travel by foot is that you know your way around the world. Eorzea doesn't turn into a series of teleport points. "Camp Ala Mhigo? Yeah, I have that teleport crystal. No idea how I got there..."



... This looks like quite the uphill battle. I don't mean to be rude, but the method of achieving any desired behavior is incentive, cost/reward. If you provide incentive to walk, some people will do it... others won't.

It seems that people are highly advocating less content which is baffling my mind. I would bet a million bucks that if some content that the same people are advocating against were in the game, they would be ardent supporters of that very same content.

People just snap to simplified retort any time CONSTRUCTIVE critique is presented.

If you can't understand how creating incentive can drive behavior (and still be fun) then that's fine... but don't sit here and say something as ridiculous as "there isn't a viable way to promote traveling by foot/choco." Just because you can't think of any ways it can be done, doesn't mean it can't.

Edited, Aug 1st 2013 4:05pm by ClydesShadow
#89Ehllfire, Posted: Aug 01 2013 at 2:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Im not saying go for less content, just not content that only 1% of the gamer base can do or have the time to. NM's were just waste of time sinks. Sure camp a spot for 36 hours with 30 other competitors for a 2% chance of a drop. That is not fun, that is not content for everyone to be able to do. If you want to make fates that have NM's sure, as long as they spawn regularly often (say once an hour)
#90 Aug 01 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Notorious monsters dont just have to be super tough end game only type monsters, i would love to see NMs kinda at all levels, my idea would be like say your farming antalops for the horns, after killing a bunch a NM antalop spawns, just make him different color, a funny name and a different TP attack, for his drop have him drop like 2-3 HQ horns. NMs in my idea would just drop more HQ materials. All in all i just really hope they add some type of NMs.
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#91 Aug 01 2013 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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IMFW wrote:
my idea would be like say your farming antalops for the horns, after killing a bunch a NM antalop spawns, just make him different color, a funny name and a different TP attack


Oh my god that would be great. I hated NM/HNM camping in 11. This way would atleast make you earn the chance to fight NM if and however much you wanted to. I could see a negative of this though, if you were just grinding on a certain monster and then BAM the NM spawned and slaughtered you while you were a low level.
#92 Aug 01 2013 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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IMFW wrote:
Notorious monsters dont just have to be super tough end game only type monsters, i would love to see NMs kinda at all levels, my idea would be like say your farming antalops for the horns, after killing a bunch a NM antalop spawns, just make him different color, a funny name and a different TP attack, for his drop have him drop like 2-3 HQ horns. NMs in my idea would just drop more HQ materials. All in all i just really hope they add some type of NMs.


That's exactly how I feel about the subject IM.
#93 Aug 01 2013 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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153 posts
Ehllfire wrote:
Im not saying go for less content, just not content that only 1% of the gamer base can do or have the time to. NM's were just waste of time sinks. Sure camp a spot for 36 hours with 30 other competitors for a 2% chance of a drop. That is not fun, that is not content for everyone to be able to do. If you want to make fates that have NM's sure, as long as they spawn regularly often (say once an hour)


Seriously, what the **** is going on? Are you thick or are you just not reading what is being said? Are people just seeing the word NM and not reading anything else?

#94 Aug 01 2013 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
68 posts
IMFW wrote:
Notorious monsters dont just have to be super tough end game only type monsters, i would love to see NMs kinda at all levels, my idea would be like say your farming antalops for the horns, after killing a bunch a NM antalop spawns, just make him different color, a funny name and a different TP attack, for his drop have him drop like 2-3 HQ horns. NMs in my idea would just drop more HQ materials. All in all i just really hope they add some type of NMs.


I really like that idea. The drops aren't so glorious that it would cause heavy camping, but you could still turn a decent coin I imagine.

I think this is a good middle ground.
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