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#27 Jul 30 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:

What do you guys see as the future of the FFXIV: ARR economy?


This is a hard question to answer. If you look at the gear you get for quests and lv15+ dungeons, crafting(equipment and consumables) really isn't that big of a deal. Some people will point how you can use spiritbonds from gear into materia slots. While I see that argument, it appears that gear obtained from doing 4 man, 8 man, and higher groups will have superior gear that doesn't have a cost attached to it. Some will say that you need people to fix gear and even that's not true as npc's can do that already for a nominal fee. Duty Finder makes it easier than ever for FFXIV players to get gear without using gil. Crafting is quite enjoyable and painless to do. I don't see much reason for people not to craft this time around.

So if I can honestly answer your question; I'd have to say that the economy is less important than other games people might of played in the past. The focus is on having fun with friends and raiding for uber loot. The few money sinks the game has is barely worth mentioning. Chocobo rentals, dye supplies, crafting supplies, and teleporting to crags hardly calls for an economy where you need to work a second job like Eve Online just to keep enough gold on hand to pay for those things.

I don't think the economy will be an issue nor do I feel RMT will be a threat.
#28 Jul 30 2013 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ravashack wrote:
I can't prove it, but I'm on the side of "each stat has its own limit." When I started adding Materia to my tradeskill gear, I'd have some cases where adding one type of Tier 1 materia gave diminished results after I already slotted one successfully, and adding the other types of Tier 1 Materia didn't.


It's both basically. Testing found out that the stats themselves are capped at their own individual limit that's determined by the iLVL piece of gear. For example you have two level 50 pieces of gear that are both green in quality, yet one is iLVL 50 and the other is iLVL 65. Both have two sockets, but it's only the iLVL 65 that can benefit more from pumping more into a stat you want versus the 50.

They're also not all weighted the same. You may be able to push a +2 stat piece at level 15 into +4 or +5 stat, but Determination may only be able to gain a +1 or +2 increase.

It's a fairly smart move that combines the ability to push the limits on a piece of gear's power for min/max, yet it also places limits so that they're not sooo much higher on an individual piece with something of the same rough iLVLs (within a few). Plus, for people that don't browse forums (or not often) who may not know it reinforces the idea "Dumping a ton of materia into this one stat isn't smart because it's approached the gear's hardcap on this particular stat". It's a nice method of not having to actually having to deal with (and figure out the formulae for) diminishing returns on stat allocation.

Edited, Jul 30th 2013 8:44pm by Viertel
#29 Jul 30 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
I can't prove it, but I'm on the side of "each stat has its own limit." When I started adding Materia to my tradeskill gear, I'd have some cases where adding one type of Tier 1 materia gave diminished results after I already slotted one successfully, and adding the other types of Tier 1 Materia didn't.


It's both basically. Testing found out that the stats themselves are capped at their own individual limit that's determined by the iLVL piece of gear. For example you have two level 50 pieces of gear that are both green in quality, yet one is iLVL 50 and the other is iLVL 65. Both have two sockets, but it's only the iLVL 65 that can benefit more from pumping more into a stat you want versus the 50.

They're also not all weighted the same. You may be able to push a +2 stat piece at level 15 into +4 or +5 stat, but Determination may only be able to gain a +1 or +2 increase.

It's a fairly smart move that combines the ability to push the limits on a piece of gear's power for min/max, yet it also places limits so that they're not sooo much higher on an individual piece with something of the same rough iLVLs (within a few). Plus, for people that don't browse forums (or not often) who may not know it reinforces the idea "Dumping a ton of materia into this one stat isn't smart because it's approached the gear's hardcap on this particular stat". It's a nice method of not having to actually having to deal with (and figure out the formulae for) diminishing returns on stat allocation.

Edited, Jul 30th 2013 8:44pm by Viertel

Thanks for the heads-up. And yeah, I like the implementation as well. It may invalidate the "BiS" concept, or at least render it much less vital, as you won't be able to mindlessly push 1/2 stats in any/all augmentation of your gear. Balancing main stat, crit rating, accuracy, determination, skill/cast speed etc. will make many combinations worthwhile. Plus, while the vertical progression for gear is technically there, as you say the stat boost from moving from an ilvl60 to an ilvl65 item won't turn the game into ezymode.

And for the above other comments comparing dungeon to crafted gear - while crafted HQ gear may not have the raw power stat-wise of dungeon gear (and, let's face it - we are speculating about gear strength for 50 crafted vs. 8man vs. 24man content anyway), it is far more customisable via the materia system. If the DoW DD gear (MNK/DRG stuff) from 50 dungeons is crit-heavy, working some crafted pieces with accuracy & determination stats + materia boosts may well be useful.

In summary - the game won't revolve around the economy - clearly. But with the constant destruction of gear to feed the materia system (and overclocking newly acquired gear will chew though materia), and utilised gear being unsellable between players, every profession is effectively creating consumables - just "to be consumed" over varying lengths of time. And previous MMO experience tells us that consumable professions tend to have the greatest longevity.
#30 Jul 30 2013 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
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SuikodenXXX wrote:
Atkascha wrote:
silverhope wrote:
Gnu wrote:


It's a storage chest with boobs, what's not to like?



But I play a girl toon so its a guy retainer.. ; ;


I'm pretty sure you get to pick your retainer's appearance by open beta/launch. They were automatically chosen for you in phase 3.
I hope so lol


This made me lawl.

So does the retainer kind of work like a companion? Or are they just my slave thing?

This is important as it will determine what gender I make them. Smiley: sly
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#31 Jul 30 2013 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Stilivan wrote:


This made me lawl.

So does the retainer kind of work like a companion? Or are they just my slave thing?

This is important as it will determine what gender I make them. Smiley: sly


They are pretty much your city-slaves.
#32 Jul 30 2013 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:
Stilivan wrote:


This made me lawl.

So does the retainer kind of work like a companion? Or are they just my slave thing?

This is important as it will determine what gender I make them. Smiley: sly


They are pretty much your city-slaves.


That's pretty neato, thanks. I guess I can sic my chocobo at things for my companion fill.
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#33 Jul 30 2013 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Anybody who spends a decent amount of time crafting will be able to make more money than they need selling in the market even at sub-standard pricing. High quality items are not hard to make, and materia sells well and pretty much falls in your lap as you spiritbond anyway.

All a retainer is for is so you can sell items in the market and to hold your overflow items, but you can only sell in one city at a time which seems unnecessarily restrictive. Although I can see it would be advantageous to focus your items on the city where the jobs that use those items reside.

Sure the high level high quality items should fetch good money as there are less and less people crafting that high, but with all the easy ways to make money, all the nice drops you can't sell anyway, and the fact that selling a good item you may not need for 100 gil is still a lot better than selling it for 1 gil - the question is why is the economy even relevant? It seems they've done so much to stifle RMT that they've essentially made money into the proverbial 'no object'.
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#34 Jul 30 2013 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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ErikHighwind wrote:
Anybody who spends a decent amount of time crafting will be able to make more money than they need selling in the market even at sub-standard pricing. High quality items are not hard to make, and materia sells well and pretty much falls in your lap as you spiritbond anyway.

All a retainer is for is so you can sell items in the market and to hold your overflow items, but you can only sell in one city at a time which seems unnecessarily restrictive. Although I can see it would be advantageous to focus your items on the city where the jobs that use those items reside.

Sure the high level high quality items should fetch good money as there are less and less people crafting that high, but with all the easy ways to make money, all the nice drops you can't sell anyway, and the fact that selling a good item you may not need for 100 gil is still a lot better than selling it for 1 gil - the question is why is the economy even relevant? It seems they've done so much to stifle RMT that they've essentially made money into the proverbial 'no object'.


The retainer's goods are accessible in all cities. Designating a city for the retainer is simply for the rotating tax rate, which will be reduced in some cities and not reduced in others. This changes on a regular basis, so if you check where the tax rate is reduced every day and move your retainer(s) as appropriate, you will have less of your sales taxed for more profit. Or if the regular tax is not enough of a difference from the reduced rate for you to bother moving the retainer(s), you can leave them as is.

Edit: Word change for clarification.

Edited, Jul 30th 2013 10:37pm by Ravashack
#35 Jul 30 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
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ErikHighwind wrote:


Sure the high level high quality items should fetch good money as there are less and less people crafting that high, but with all the easy ways to make money, all the nice drops you can't sell anyway, and the fact that selling a good item you may not need for 100 gil is still a lot better than selling it for 1 gil - the question is why is the economy even relevant? It seems they've done so much to stifle RMT that they've essentially made money into the proverbial 'no object'.


That was my assessment as well. It's so strange for me since I'm switching from FFXI to FFXIV. I remember the high ticket craftable items like the Scorpion Harness and the Hauby that used to cost millions simply because SE limited the materials required to make them. Although despite the gear that binds on your character, it's like the game keeps throwing gear at you without even trying so it doesn't matter. Consumables of arrows/bullets/ninja tools were costly in FFXI, but I don't see any consumables in FFXIV that break the bank. I have this feeling that craftable gear will primarily be sold to players that don't wish to do the hardcore endgame content like the Crystal Tower or the Bahamut fights. People say we'll still have RMT, but that begs the question, who is buying gil and why would they. Unless SE follows the same game-plan from FFXI's relic weapons, I don't see any use at all for buying gil no matter how casual you are.
#36 Jul 30 2013 at 9:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I spent 90% of my Gil in P3 on teleporting and repairs. Both of those things can be easily replaced with free versions. I think the only gear I bough were some jewelry pieces. By the time I got to where I couldn't make my own stuff I was getting comparable versions from dungeon runs.
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#37 Jul 30 2013 at 10:07 PM Rating: Good
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This is an awesome thread. I've been out of the loop for a while so there is lots of good info in here. I don't really understand how creating materia works... Maybe someone can clear this up for me. As I understand it, you have to wear gear, do stuff with it on, then eventually it's spiritbond will reach 100%. Once this happens you can create a piece of random materia by destroying this gear? So... to create high level materia you have to wear high level gear then destroy it... How long does it take to get spiritbond to 100%? Does this mean that people will be wearing gear they don't actually like just to "farm" materia? I don't like the sound of that.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 12:08am by ScrapTower
#38 Jul 30 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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if you sell to spirit bond parties you know they buy in bulk and buy the cheapest item 1st. They make materia and sell it so they can buy the expensive ones if they can't make it.It's supply and demand
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#39 Jul 30 2013 at 10:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Warmech wrote:
if you sell to spirit bond parties you know they buy in bulk and buy the cheapest item 1st. They make materia and sell it so they can buy the expensive ones if they can't make it.It's supply and demand


So my initial interpretation was correct. They've created a system that requires grinding in sub-optimal gear to farm materia. I'm not sure I like that.

I like that spiritbonding made armor essentially a consumable which keeps crafting profitable, however I didn't know what spiritbonding actually did until today.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 12:51am by ScrapTower
#40 Jul 31 2013 at 2:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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ScrapTower wrote:
Warmech wrote:
if you sell to spirit bond parties you know they buy in bulk and buy the cheapest item 1st. They make materia and sell it so they can buy the expensive ones if they can't make it.It's supply and demand


So my initial interpretation was correct. They've created a system that requires grinding in sub-optimal gear to farm materia. I'm not sure I like that.

I like that spiritbonding made armor essentially a consumable which keeps crafting profitable, however I didn't know what spiritbonding actually did until today.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 12:51am by ScrapTower

Well, it's true to an extent. But the level of the materia (from 1 - 5) is dictated by the level of the gear that is converted. So level 15 gear won't convert into grade 5 materia. But yes, people will be looking for cheap gear @ a certain level (let's say 41, giving a 10 level spread between each materia tier. In saying that, level 15+ stuff I converted in p3 was still tier 1 - maybe you need to convert level 50 gear for tier 5 stuff? Would help this "sub-optimal grind" a bit.), grinding exp on it (FATEs would be good for this, as speculation), converting it trying to hit the "right" materia, and selling it if not, as most types of materia will become useful to at least 1 class/job.
#41 Jul 31 2013 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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ScrapTower wrote:
Warmech wrote:
if you sell to spirit bond parties you know they buy in bulk and buy the cheapest item 1st. They make materia and sell it so they can buy the expensive ones if they can't make it.It's supply and demand


So my initial interpretation was correct. They've created a system that requires grinding in sub-optimal gear to farm materia. I'm not sure I like that.

I like that spiritbonding made armor essentially a consumable which keeps crafting profitable, however I didn't know what spiritbonding actually did until today.


Then don't worry about making your own materia if it upsets you that much. Just buy the materia and move along if it doesn't interest you; not all aspects of the game will (and that's just a fact towards everyone).

The fodder out in the world is easily killed relatively brainlessly with quested items and crafted ones are usually a slight step up above that. It isn't like you're taking off all of your God gear from sky and trying to go solo weapons in the palace with vendor gear.
#42 Jul 31 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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carmelita wrote:
In summary - the game won't revolve around the economy - clearly. But with the constant destruction of gear to feed the materia system (and overclocking newly acquired gear will chew though materia), and utilised gear being unsellable between players, every profession is effectively creating consumables - just "to be consumed" over varying lengths of time. And previous MMO experience tells us that consumable professions tend to have the greatest longevity.


I hadn't really thought about it from this perspective before, but it's a really intriguing concept. I love the idea that all crafting classes will have utility due to the constant turnover of gear (or actual consumables like food, potions, ethers). I was initially worried at how easy it was to grind out a stack of something like copper ore on a gathering class, but with how much of the low level gear becomes spirtbind fodder, I can see this being incredibly useful. They really did a wonderful job of fleshing out the crafting portion of the game.

I still think gathering needs to have a little more variability (perhaps some gathering FATEs or some actual quests in towns that only pop up when you are on the correct class).

I'm still curious as to what will be more profitable, gathering classes or crafting classes. With the shear volume of mats you can obtain gathering, I can see it being incredibly lucrative, especially at higher levels for stuff like the grade 5 dark matter or materia bonding agent (can't remember what it was called), as well as just the high level mats needed to make certain gear. I'm wondering how self-sufficient people will be, or how dependant they will be on the market to buy these base mats.

Man, this game just needs to come out now. Smiley: lol
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#43 Jul 31 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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Gotta remember that doing instances is not hte only way to spiritbind gear. Fates and leves and even gathering/crafting help this. Do you really need to farm fates in your best of the best gear? I wouldent even if the process was changed due to repair costs. I like to keep my good gear rdy for instances.

Plus once you spiritbind and break the gear to materia there is no reason to repair it heh. so its a win win.
#44 Jul 31 2013 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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silverhope wrote:
Gotta remember that doing instances is not hte only way to spiritbind gear. Fates and leves and even gathering/crafting help this.


The question that occurs to me is: why am I doing fates and leves at 50, except to grind out materia?
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#45 Jul 31 2013 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
silverhope wrote:
Gotta remember that doing instances is not hte only way to spiritbind gear. Fates and leves and even gathering/crafting help this.


The question that occurs to me is: why am I doing fates and leves at 50, except to grind out materia?


GC Leves for marks and GC Hunting Log. FATEs for marks if they still give em out on release and possibly gear for "endgame-style" FATEs. Also good for messing with your battle rotations to try and improve your own performance.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 10:31am by BartelX
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#46 Jul 31 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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KarlHungis wrote:
silverhope wrote:
Gotta remember that doing instances is not hte only way to spiritbind gear. Fates and leves and even gathering/crafting help this.


The question that occurs to me is: why am I doing fates and leves at 50, except to grind out materia?


The Level 50 FATES have their own rewards. Behemoth etc. have other drops than just exp, gil, and seals

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 10:33am by Deathbuyer
#47 Jul 31 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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This has turned into a fascinating thread. I've been wondering myself if I should level gathering classes (Botany and Miner first) to 50 before tackling crafting. I wouldn't have to break up what I'm doing for the sake of gathering mats. In the beta I noticed a lot of people /shouting for mats like elm/yew logs which are around level ~16-20 Botany. The HQ versions sold pretty well for me on the Market Wards. For those people who can't stand gathering, there is a profit to be made with selling leftover materials. The lesson to take away from here is to make a profit by putting in work that others can't be bothered to do. Selling crystals/shards/materia/catalysts/spiritbond gear/high level mats will be profitable enough.
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#48 Jul 31 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
Atkascha wrote:
This has turned into a fascinating thread. I've been wondering myself if I should level gathering classes (Botany and Miner first) to 50 before tackling crafting. I wouldn't have to break up what I'm doing for the sake of gathering mats. In the beta I noticed a lot of people /shouting for mats like elm/yew logs which are around level ~16-20 Botany. The HQ versions sold pretty well for me on the Market Wards. For those people who can't stand gathering, there is a profit to be made with selling leftover materials. The lesson to take away from here is to make a profit by putting in work that others can't be bothered to do. Selling crystals/shards/materia/catalysts/spiritbond gear/high level mats will be profitable enough.


This is what I did for gil in 1.0. I started leveling Botanist to gather my own mats but found it to be more profitable to sell those mats to other people. I also made a tidy little profit selling base mats (cotton thread, lumber, ingots etc) to crafters. I do agree with what other people are saying about the economy not being a huge factor like it was in XI.
#49 Jul 31 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Atkascha wrote:
This has turned into a fascinating thread. I've been wondering myself if I should level gathering classes (Botany and Miner first) to 50 before tackling crafting. I wouldn't have to break up what I'm doing for the sake of gathering mats. In the beta I noticed a lot of people /shouting for mats like elm/yew logs which are around level ~16-20 Botany. The HQ versions sold pretty well for me on the Market Wards. For those people who can't stand gathering, there is a profit to be made with selling leftover materials. The lesson to take away from here is to make a profit by putting in work that others can't be bothered to do. Selling crystals/shards/materia/catalysts/spiritbond gear/high level mats will be profitable enough.


This is what I did for gil in 1.0. I started leveling Botanist to gather my own mats but found it to be more profitable to sell those mats to other people. I also made a tidy little profit selling base mats (cotton thread, lumber, ingots etc) to crafters. I do agree with what other people are saying about the economy not being a huge factor like it was in XI.


I consider that a good thing. I crafted in FFXI but what a giant pain it was... it seemed like unless you were a high-level goldsmith you were not really making good money.

I was 100+6 on Woodworking and could barely break even on Demon Arrows unless I made my own arrowheads.

It will be refreshing to play a game where the economy is not so messed up and favors only a few players.

I'm actually considering doing Alchemy and Leatherworking so I can work on my own armor and make potions and materia for sale.
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#50 Jul 31 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
ScrapTower wrote:
Warmech wrote:
if you sell to spirit bond parties you know they buy in bulk and buy the cheapest item 1st. They make materia and sell it so they can buy the expensive ones if they can't make it.It's supply and demand


So my initial interpretation was correct. They've created a system that requires grinding in sub-optimal gear to farm materia. I'm not sure I like that.

I like that spiritbonding made armor essentially a consumable which keeps crafting profitable, however I didn't know what spiritbonding actually did until today.


Then don't worry about making your own materia if it upsets you that much. Just buy the materia and move along if it doesn't interest you; not all aspects of the game will (and that's just a fact towards everyone).

The fodder out in the world is easily killed relatively brainlessly with quested items and crafted ones are usually a slight step up above that. It isn't like you're taking off all of your God gear from sky and trying to go solo weapons in the palace with vendor gear.


I'm not complaining, it's just not the system that I would pick. I would argue however that buying the best materia will probably not be an option for most players due to it's likely very high cost. It will have to be farmed, which means spending a significant amount of time in disposable "spiritbond gear". I have no problem with the creation of materia requiring a grind in some form or another. It's the forced gear setup that bothers me.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 1:26pm by ScrapTower
#51 Jul 31 2013 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Hairspray wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Atkascha wrote:
This has turned into a fascinating thread. I've been wondering myself if I should level gathering classes (Botany and Miner first) to 50 before tackling crafting. I wouldn't have to break up what I'm doing for the sake of gathering mats. In the beta I noticed a lot of people /shouting for mats like elm/yew logs which are around level ~16-20 Botany. The HQ versions sold pretty well for me on the Market Wards. For those people who can't stand gathering, there is a profit to be made with selling leftover materials. The lesson to take away from here is to make a profit by putting in work that others can't be bothered to do. Selling crystals/shards/materia/catalysts/spiritbond gear/high level mats will be profitable enough.


This is what I did for gil in 1.0. I started leveling Botanist to gather my own mats but found it to be more profitable to sell those mats to other people. I also made a tidy little profit selling base mats (cotton thread, lumber, ingots etc) to crafters. I do agree with what other people are saying about the economy not being a huge factor like it was in XI.


I consider that a good thing. I crafted in FFXI but what a giant pain it was... it seemed like unless you were a high-level goldsmith you were not really making good money.

I was 100+6 on Woodworking and could barely break even on Demon Arrows unless I made my own arrowheads.

It will be refreshing to play a game where the economy is not so messed up and favors only a few players.

I'm actually considering doing Alchemy and Leatherworking so I can work on my own armor and make potions and materia for sale.


I agree. In XI my main source of income was gardening. I leveled Cooking to 75ish and it was a colossal pain. After that I was able to make decent gil but nowhere close to as much as I made gardening. My 1.0 character has all crafting/gathering jobs except Fisher, Culinarian and Alchemist in the 20s so I should be in a good place to support myself at launch.
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