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#1 Jul 31 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Hello everyone. Can you reset your attribute points at any point? I've noticed I wasn't able to respec my classes once I dropped my points in a particular category. I'm asking this for two reasons. MAR and ARC are two jobs I haven't figured out how I wish to utilize my points yet. I'll start with MAR first.

Obviously STR for threat factor and VIT for DEF/HP pool are the 2 prime categories for MAR. So I'd like to ask people, how did you use your points into MAR? All STR? A mixed of both?

ARC is a bit of a mystery since all we know is that PIE expands the MP pool. We don't know what modifiers such as INT or MND boost their abilities yet. I suppose we could guess that all damage abilities use INT, but I'm hoping someone else knows for sure.

Edited: The ARC I was referring to is Arcanist, not Archer. I apologize for not picking up on the fact we already use ARC for the ranged class.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 1:40pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#2 Jul 31 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't remember seeing anything in game but I hope so. I also seem to remember hearing that the points you get for each job are applied to that job.

I think MND is pure curing potency and INT is spell damage, I'll have to see if I can find that table that explains it, the manual had descriptions for all of them. As soon as I finish lunch I'll look unless someone has beaten me to it by then.
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#3 Jul 31 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Pretty sure DEX was for ranged damage. Also, there was a greyed out button in the beta to reset your stat points, I'm assuming this will be implemented for open beta/launch.
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#4 Jul 31 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
ARC is a bit of a mystery since all we know is that PIE expands the MP pool. We don't know what modifiers such as INT or MND boost their abilities yet. I suppose we could guess that all damage abilities use INT, but I'm hoping someone else knows for sure.


Wouldn't it be expected that ARC would rely heavily on DEX?
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#5 Jul 31 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Hello everyone. Can you reset your attribute points at any point? I've noticed I wasn't able to respec my classes once I dropped my points in a particular category. I'm asking this for two reasons. MAR and ARC are two jobs I haven't figured out how I wish to utilize my points yet. I'll start with MAR first.

Obviously STR for threat factor and VIT for DEF/HP pool are the 2 prime categories for MAR. So I'd like to ask people, how did you use your points into MAR? All STR? A mixed of both?

ARC is a bit of a mystery since all we know is that PIE expands the MP pool. We don't know what modifiers such as INT or MND boost their abilities yet. I suppose we could guess that all damage abilities use INT, but I'm hoping someone else knows for sure.

As of phase 3, there was no way to reset your attribute points. Hopefully, that changes. For MRD, put all your points into VIT. Not only does it increase your total HP, but it also increases the amount of HP you regen. For ACN (I assume that's what you meant), I would suggest waiting to see how SMN and SCH function.

On MRD, I put my points into STR. I personally feel that it was a mistake and that VIT would have been the better option.
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#6 Jul 31 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:
On MRD, I put my points into STR. I personally feel that it was a mistake and that VIT would have been the better option.


I think it's going to depend a lot on playstyle and what you are fighting. Personally, I like STR as the better option because it increases my overall damage and allows me to hold hate better, but I'm sure there are lots of situations where going with a VIT build would be good also (anything that hits for a lot of damage at once). I'm very hopeful they allow us to reset; I can't imagine they wouldn't since they already have the option coded into the character panel.
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#7 Jul 31 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
ARC is a bit of a mystery since all we know is that PIE expands the MP pool. We don't know what modifiers such as INT or MND boost their abilities yet. I suppose we could guess that all damage abilities use INT, but I'm hoping someone else knows for sure.


Wouldn't it be expected that ARC would rely heavily on DEX?

ARC in this case may refer to Arcanist.

An archer would of course prefer dex, but an arcanist may prefer int, mnd, or possibly vit or pie, depending on how stats affect pets.
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#8 Jul 31 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bah, can't get on the beta forums from work, I forgot. Somewhere someone pasted the table of attributes and their descriptions though, I know I saw it here...
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#9 Jul 31 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ah here we go:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=137209435731041022&h=50&p=1#37

BartelX wrote:
...
Strength Increases melee attack power and the percentage of damage mitigated by block and parry.
Dexterity Increases ranged attack power and the chance of blocking or parrying an attack.
Vitality Increases maximum HP.
Intelligence Increases attack magic potency.
Mind Increases healing magic potency.
Piety Increases maximum MP.
...
Accuracy Increases the accuracy of physical and magical attacks.
Critical Hit Rate Increases the probability that an attack will deal critical damage.
Determination Increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks and the amount of HP recovered by spells.
Attack Power Increases the amount of damage dealt by physical attacks.
Skill Speed Reduces the recast time of weaponskills.
Attack Magic Potency Increases the amount of damage dealt by spells.
Healing Magic Potency Increases the amount of HP recovered by spells.
Spell Speed Reduces the cast and recast times of spells.
Defense Reduces the amount of damage received from physical attacks.
Parry Increases the probability that an attack will be blocked or parried.
Magic Defense Reduces the amount of damage received from magical attacks.
...

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#10 Jul 31 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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From Earlier Phases it just seemed more proficient to stack all your points into your Main Attribute. When leveling my CNJ, I stacked MIND. I did experiment with a few points into Piety to increase my MP, but the ratio seemed rather poor (3 points of MP for 1 point). Didn't seem to have a significant difference in MP regen either for what its worth.
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#11 Jul 31 2013 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
On MRD, I put my points into STR. I personally feel that it was a mistake and that VIT would have been the better option.

I think it's going to depend a lot on playstyle and what you are fighting. Personally, I like STR as the better option because it increases my overall damage and allows me to hold hate better, but I'm sure there are lots of situations where going with a VIT build would be good also (anything that hits for a lot of damage at once). I'm very hopeful they allow us to reset; I can't imagine they wouldn't since they already have the option coded into the character panel.

The problem with STR on MRD comes into play once you get WAR. Defiance increases HP by 25% and lowers damage by 35%. With Defiance up, each point of VIT is worth 1.25x it's initial value. STR, on the other hand, will increase your damage by the same percentage as before, but all the numbers involved are smaller.

As far as holding hate goes, I don't think 30 points of STR will matter much at level 50. With the enmity enhancers WAR and PLD get, it shouldn't be too hard for them to generate threat. Given that both jobs will be expected to reduce their damage by 30-35%, that extra 30 STR will affect kill speed very little. I think the extra HP regen that VIT indirectly increases will end up making the biggest difference.
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#12 Jul 31 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:

ARC in this case may refer to Arcanist.

An archer would of course prefer dex, but an arcanist may prefer int, mnd, or possibly vit or pie, depending on how stats affect pets.


Sorry about the confusion, I was referring to Arcanist, not Archer. I guess I'm still used to RNG from FFXI that I totally missed how someone could confuse what I meant. Thanks man...
#13 Jul 31 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I never even thought of that, now how will we know the difference between Archer and Arcanist!? Smiley: confused
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#14 Jul 31 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:
BartelX wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
On MRD, I put my points into STR. I personally feel that it was a mistake and that VIT would have been the better option.

I think it's going to depend a lot on playstyle and what you are fighting. Personally, I like STR as the better option because it increases my overall damage and allows me to hold hate better, but I'm sure there are lots of situations where going with a VIT build would be good also (anything that hits for a lot of damage at once). I'm very hopeful they allow us to reset; I can't imagine they wouldn't since they already have the option coded into the character panel.

The problem with STR on MRD comes into play once you get WAR. Defiance increases HP by 25% and lowers damage by 35%. With Defiance up, each point of VIT is worth 1.25x it's initial value. STR, on the other hand, will increase your damage by the same percentage as before, but all the numbers involved are smaller.

As far as holding hate goes, I don't think 30 points of STR will matter much at level 50. With the enmity enhancers WAR and PLD get, it shouldn't be too hard for them to generate threat. Given that both jobs will be expected to reduce their damage by 30-35%, that extra 30 STR will affect kill speed very little. I think the extra HP regen that VIT indirectly increases will end up making the biggest difference.


For warrior, I agree. I was honestly meaning more for MRD during the first 30 levels. I've always liked the concept of a damage tank more than an HP tank. And actually, I'd still think STR would have a place in any content that doesn't require you to run in Defiance (I'm guessing most leveling dungeons probably won't other than the occasional boss fight). For endgame, I can definitely see how VIT would make sense.
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#15 Jul 31 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:



As far as holding hate goes, I don't think 30 points of STR will matter much at level 50. With the enmity enhancers WAR and PLD get, it shouldn't be too hard for them to generate threat. Given that both jobs will be expected to reduce their damage by 30-35%, that extra 30 STR will affect kill speed very little. I think the extra HP regen that VIT indirectly increases will end up making the biggest difference.


I typically felt that the traits of the class were the best indicator for what to merit. MAR has only +VIT bonuses so that one of the reasons for my confusion. I felt MAR would be able to hold hate though damage only and primarily serve as an off tank. I'm not so sure on that early prognosis anymore from reading more about the class. I'm not so sure I'll want to play WAR right now, MAR looks cool enough. Because I wasn't able to take MAR high enough during Phase 3, I'm not sure how their damage will scale. All I know was that MAR was the best melee job in terms of damage for the jobs I was able to play. So part of me would rather just pile on the STR and just zerg the **** out of mobs wearing tank gear if necessary.

I honestly didn't know VIT played into HP regen. I thought it was defense and HP pool only. Now you've given me more to think about in determining which direction to go. I already feel stupid enough for dropping a few points into DEX on my LNC thinking it was ACC. :P

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 1:45pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#16 Jul 31 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:


For warrior, I agree. I was honestly meaning more for MRD during the first 30 levels. I've always liked the concept of a damage tank more than an HP tank. And actually, I'd still think STR would have a place in any content that doesn't require you to run in Defiance (I'm guessing most leveling dungeons probably won't other than the occasional boss fight). For endgame, I can definitely see how VIT would make sense.


I'm wondering if SE will allow us to respec points with a cooldown timer allowing further customizations for varying playstyles. Otherwise what's the point for offering DEX to a LNC or VIT for a mage? I'm interested in how you think MAR as an off tank in say a 8man or higher party would function in endgame using a str build only? I'd imagine in a 4 man or main tank role that VIT would primary based on the responses here.
#17 Jul 31 2013 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here is a post from the SE forums that you might find of interest.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/56961-Damage-healing-output-Forumla-s-Thoughts?p=789196&viewfull=1#post789196
Damage + healing output Forumla's - Thoughts

Ive been doing some testing to figure out the dmg formula.. and its very easy.
And so far, weapon stats are huge.

To figure your damage.


All you do is. (level 15 lancer)
Attack Power + Ability Potency / 100 x Weapon damage.

So for my 15 lancer. (this was with no or crappy gear if much gear at all)
60+150 = 210/100 = 2.1x10(weapon damage) = 21 Dmg per True Thrust.


For healing.
Healing Potency + Heal Potency / 70 X Weapon Damage.

It seems heals or at least Conj has a build in 30% increase over the damage forumla.

This will get you within 1-2 dmg of how much dmg your ability will do.
*Note, this does not account for passive Traits or Cleric stance that Increase Damage.


I would also note, The level 50 weapons in Ulda grand company Vender

Casters have a decent amount of a higher damage stats then melee, just something to think about when looking at the formula.
GLD/PLD Weapon - 39dmg
PUG/MNK Weapon - 39dmg
LNC/DRG Weapon - 39dmg
MRD/WAR Weapon - 39dmg
ACH/BRD - 35 dmg
Thm/BLM Weapon - 59dmg
CNJ/WHM Weapon - 59 dmg

Rest of the damage basically comes by your passive stat gains, gear stat allocation, armor enhancements, and the stats you choose.
Like a level 15 Lancer has a Higher STR then level 15 Pugalist

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#18 Jul 31 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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The XI RDM inside me has been theory crafting about VIT for Stoneskin. In XI Stoneskin has a soft cap of 350, which is about 30% of a 99 Hume RDM's max HP. In XIV crossclassed Stoneskin absorbs 10% of your max HP, which is significantly weaker than XI's version by that metric. I'm not sure how much HP a point of VIT gives or if it will be worth the tradeoff, but is should increase the strength of Stoneskin.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 3:55pm by ScrapTower
#19 Jul 31 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
For warrior, I agree. I was honestly meaning more for MRD during the first 30 levels. I've always liked the concept of a damage tank more than an HP tank. And actually, I'd still think STR would have a place in any content that doesn't require you to run in Defiance (I'm guessing most leveling dungeons probably won't other than the occasional boss fight). For endgame, I can definitely see how VIT would make sense.

STR's value should increase a lot once they add a second job to the class. Anyway, let's continue to hope that they put in a reset. Even if it costs gil, I'm fine with it.


ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I honestly didn't know VIT played into HP regen. I thought it was defense and HP pool only. Now you've given me more to think about in determining which direction to go. I already feel stupid enough for dropping a few points into DEX on my LNC thinking it was ACC. :P

HP regen is determined by a percentage of your total HP. Since VIT increases your HP, your HP regen increases by extension. If you have beta forum access, this thread brings it up. You'll have to sift through a whole lot of pointless arguing, though.


Wint wrote:
I never even thought of that, now how will we know the difference between Archer and Arcanist!? Smiley: confused

I've just been calling it ACN until the official abbreviation pops up. It would be a whole lot easier if Archer was called Bowman. Then we could just abbreviate that BOW.
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#20 Jul 31 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:

STR's value should increase a lot once they add a second job to the class. Anyway, let's continue to hope that they put in a reset. Even if it costs gil, I'm fine with it.


I don't understand what you mean here. Isn't the stats of MAR class and WAR job separate? Couldn't someone just dump all STR into MAR and all VIT into WAR having the best of both worlds, no negatives? Sorry for the confusion, my highest character was only lv22.


Quote:

HP regen is determined by a percentage of your total HP. Since VIT increases your HP, your HP regen increases by extension. If you have beta forum access, this thread brings it up. You'll have to sift through a whole lot of pointless arguing, though.


I see what you mean here. I assume MP regen works the same way.
#21 Jul 31 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I don't understand what you mean here. Isn't the stats of MAR class and WAR job separate? Couldn't someone just dump all STR into MAR and all VIT into WAR having the best of both worlds, no negatives? Sorry for the confusion, my highest character was only lv22.

As of right now, attribute points are separated by class only. SMN and SCH, for instance, both share the same attribute points with ACN. So if you dump all your points into STR for MRD, your WAR gets stuck with STR. The reason I brought up a second job for MRD is that it will probably end up being a DPS that takes better advantage of STR.
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#22 Jul 31 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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FrozenSherbet wrote:

As of right now, attribute points are separated by class only. SMN and SCH, for instance, both share the same attribute points with ACN. So if you dump all your points into STR for MRD, your WAR gets stuck with STR. The reason I brought up a second job for MRD is that it will probably end up being a DPS that takes better advantage of STR.


Ahhh, this makes sense to me now. I better tell my GLD buddy that his PLD will be affected if he doesn't dump all VIT in it. I'm a bit skeptical of another class using MAR as a job right now. I suppose SAM would be the ideal choice, but it seems Ninja and Thief are on the table to fit stealth slots first. Anyways, you've helped me a great deal when specing out my MAR.
#23 Jul 31 2013 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:
Wint wrote:
I never even thought of that, now how will we know the difference between Archer and Arcanist!? Smiley: confused

I've just been calling it ACN until the official abbreviation pops up. It would be a whole lot easier if Archer was called Bowman. Then we could just abbreviate that BOW.


Same goes for Gladiator and Goldsmith. A lot of people abbreviate both as Gld.
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#24 Jul 31 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Wint wrote:
I never even thought of that, now how will we know the difference between Archer and Arcanist!? Smiley: confused

I've just been calling it ACN until the official abbreviation pops up. It would be a whole lot easier if Archer was called Bowman. Then we could just abbreviate that BOW.

Same goes for Gladiator and Goldsmith. A lot of people abbreviate both as Gld.

To fix that, they could change Gladiator to Knight. I think Knight makes more sense for the name of the class anyway. For abbreviations, I just follow the naming conventions used in the Shared Skills Table. It keeps me from getting confused.
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#25 Jul 31 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:
BartelX wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Wint wrote:
I never even thought of that, now how will we know the difference between Archer and Arcanist!? Smiley: confused

I've just been calling it ACN until the official abbreviation pops up. It would be a whole lot easier if Archer was called Bowman. Then we could just abbreviate that BOW.

Same goes for Gladiator and Goldsmith. A lot of people abbreviate both as Gld.

To fix that, they could change Gladiator to Knight. I think Knight makes more sense for the name of the class anyway. For abbreviations, I just follow the naming conventions used in the Shared Skills Table. It keeps me from getting confused.


I would be completely ok if they changed gladiator to knight... but only if it meant we get this class.
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#26 Jul 31 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
ARC is a bit of a mystery since all we know is that PIE expands the MP pool. We don't know what modifiers such as INT or MND boost their abilities yet. I suppose we could guess that all damage abilities use INT, but I'm hoping someone else knows for sure.


Wouldn't it be expected that ARC would rely heavily on DEX?

ARC in this case may refer to Arcanist.

An archer would of course prefer dex, but an arcanist may prefer int, mnd, or possibly vit or pie, depending on how stats affect pets.


Makes sense. I'm still stick in FFXI world where Arcanist didn't exist.
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#27 Jul 31 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Also, there was a greyed out button in the beta to reset your stat points, I'm assuming this will be implemented for open beta/launch.

I had interpreted that to mean you could play around with stat allotment using the amount of available points at the time, and reset it before accepting it for good. i.e. If you had 5 points available, and added 3 to STR / 2 to VIT and didn't like how that looked, you could hit the reset button to return those 5 points back to your available pool rather than hitting the minus button 5 times.

I never payed any attention to it during Phase 3 for the few times I used those bonus points, so I can't say whether it actually worked that way or not.
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#28 Jul 31 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Default
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svlyons wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Also, there was a greyed out button in the beta to reset your stat points, I'm assuming this will be implemented for open beta/launch.

I had interpreted that to mean you could play around with stat allotment using the amount of available points at the time, and reset it before accepting it for good. i.e. If you had 5 points available, and added 3 to STR / 2 to VIT and didn't like how that looked, you could hit the reset button to return those 5 points back to your available pool rather than hitting the minus button 5 times.

I never payed any attention to it during Phase 3 for the few times I used those bonus points, so I can't say whether it actually worked that way or not.


I'm fairly confident any changes wont be permanent. Possibly limited over time or with some sort of quest, but the backlash SE would face over any balance changes they might make to the stats in the future would be overwhelming otherwise. I'd liken it to Neural Remaps in EvE Online.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 5:28pm by ScrapTower
#29 Jul 31 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Wint wrote:
I never even thought of that, now how will we know the difference between Archer and Arcanist!? Smiley: confused

I've just been calling it ACN until the official abbreviation pops up. It would be a whole lot easier if Archer was called Bowman. Then we could just abbreviate that BOW.


Same goes for Gladiator and Goldsmith. A lot of people abbreviate both as Gld.

Going from the abbreviations in-game (not that I like all of them!)
Archer = ARC
Arcanist = ACN
Gladiator = GLD
Goldsmith = GSM

Personally, I've been using ACH for archer, but otherwise (I assume) over time the in-game descriptors will win out ... maybe.
#30 Jul 31 2013 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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carmelita wrote:
BartelX wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:
Wint wrote:
I never even thought of that, now how will we know the difference between Archer and Arcanist!? Smiley: confused

I've just been calling it ACN until the official abbreviation pops up. It would be a whole lot easier if Archer was called Bowman. Then we could just abbreviate that BOW.


Same goes for Gladiator and Goldsmith. A lot of people abbreviate both as Gld.

Going from the abbreviations in-game (not that I like all of them!)
Archer = ARC
Arcanist = ACN
Gladiator = GLD
Goldsmith = GSM

Personally, I've been using ACH for archer, but otherwise (I assume) over time the in-game descriptors will win out ... maybe.


Gladiator is actually GLA, both in 1.0 and ARR.

Edit: And what's more fun is that it seems everyone has unofficially recognized Pugilist as PUG, Smiley: lol while the gear lists it as PGL.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 7:50pm by Ravashack
#31 Jul 31 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Reminds me of when Treasures of Aht Urhgan was about to release for FFXI, people thought Blue Mage would be abbreviated as BUM Smiley: lol
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#32 Jul 31 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ravashack wrote:
Gladiator is actually GLA, both in 1.0 and ARR.

Edit: And what's more fun is that it seems everyone has unofficially recognized Pugilist as PUG, Smiley: lol while the gear lists it as PGL.

Edited, Jul 31st 2013 7:50pm by Ravashack

I think Pugilist would actually be PUG if it wasn't for the whole pickup group acronym thing. PUG does seem like a better fit for the class. Instead, we're stuck with PGL which I can't help but pronounce as puggle.
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#33 Jul 31 2013 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Atkascha wrote:
Reminds me of when Treasures of Aht Urhgan was about to release for FFXI, people thought Blue Mage would be abbreviated as BUM Smiley: lol


I'm glad they didn't. There'd be no end to the jokes. "Hey, that's a nice looking BUM you have there!"
#34 Jul 31 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
Atkascha wrote:
Reminds me of when Treasures of Aht Urhgan was about to release for FFXI, people thought Blue Mage would be abbreviated as BUM Smiley: lol


I'm glad they didn't. There'd be no end to the jokes. "Hey, that's a nice looking BUM you have there!"

"Hey BUM, burst a Bomb Toss on that skillchain!" Smiley: sly
#35 Aug 03 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I really hope that SE allows us to configure the attribute points at will. I'm having a hard time with Arcanist because I found out SCH uses MND and SMN uses INT. If I boost my mind, I'd have to pick only SCH. This is because the attributes carry over to the Job class.
#36 Aug 03 2013 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:

As of right now, attribute points are separated by class only. SMN and SCH, for instance, both share the same attribute points with ACN. So if you dump all your points into STR for MRD, your WAR gets stuck with STR. The reason I brought up a second job for MRD is that it will probably end up being a DPS that takes better advantage of STR.


Ahhh, this makes sense to me now. I better tell my GLD buddy that his PLD will be affected if he doesn't dump all VIT in it. I'm a bit skeptical of another class using MAR as a job right now. I suppose SAM would be the ideal choice, but it seems Ninja and Thief are on the table to fit stealth slots first. Anyways, you've helped me a great deal when specing out my MAR.


Gladiator should be dumping all of his points into STR, not VIT, due to being the mitigation tank. Marauder's better served splitting them with a 2/1 ratio (1 VIT for every 2 STR) due to being the soaker tank. There's also the fact that STR does affect your auto-attack damage and abilities as well as is part of the calculation used for threat abilities as both classes.

Also I think you mentioned it (or maybe it was something else but could have sworn it was yours), but VIT does not affect defense. VIT affect health and only health. Defense is only modified by Protect and gear.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I really hope that SE allows us to configure the attribute points at will. I'm having a hard time with Arcanist because I found out SCH uses MND and SMN uses INT. If I boost my mind, I'd have to pick only SCH. This is because the attributes carry over to the Job class.


It's taken down now due to a request from S-E, but there were traits not yet translated on xivdb.com. I know somewhere I saw something about an INT/MND swap and it wasn't from cleric stance.
#37 Aug 03 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:


Gladiator should be dumping all of his points into STR, not VIT, due to being the mitigation tank. Marauder's better served splitting them with a 2/1 ratio (1 VIT for every 2 STR) due to being the soaker tank. There's also the fact that STR does affect your auto-attack damage and abilities as well as is part of the calculation used for threat abilities as both classes.

Also I think you mentioned it (or maybe it was something else but could have sworn it was yours), but VIT does not affect defense. VIT affect health and only health. Defense is only modified by Protect and gear.


Are you saying that because GLD has more def and a shield that STR is more useful for tanking purposes? I did some minor testing during Phase 3. I could of sworn 1 VIT= 1 DEF just like 1 STR= 1 ATK. You could be right though. I only was able to find my attribute tests for str/dex/vit etc between races, not the ATK/DEF totals.

Quote:

It's taken down now due to a request from S-E, but there were traits not yet translated on xivdb.com. I know somewhere I saw something about an INT/MND swap and it wasn't from cleric stance.


I've found many abilities for those classes on various sites, but nothing in regards to SMN or SCH traits beyond Arcanist of course. Cleric stance doesn't look like ARC and the 2 jobs can use it so I hope you're right.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2013 12:01pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#38 Aug 03 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
Gladiator should be dumping all of his points into STR, not VIT, due to being the mitigation tank. Marauder's better served splitting them with a 2/1 ratio (1 VIT for every 2 STR) due to being the soaker tank. There's also the fact that STR does affect your auto-attack damage and abilities as well as is part of the calculation used for threat abilities as both classes.

Also I think you mentioned it (or maybe it was something else but could have sworn it was yours), but VIT does not affect defense. VIT affect health and only health. Defense is only modified by Protect and gear.

I would still put all my points into VIT on both GLA and MRD. In the case of GLA and MRD, 450 HP adds an extra 9 HP per tic to your natural regen. If you switch to WAR, 563 HP results in 11 HP per tic.

For instance, if a MRD follows your build and sacrifices 20 points of VIT for STR, they lose 300 HP and 6 HP regen. A WAR loses an additional 75 HP and 2 HP regen. Even though STR increases your damage, both PLD and WAR rely on abilities that nerf said damage.

As far as damage mitigation goes, I would check out this thread of the beta forums.
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#39 Aug 03 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Even though STR increases your damage, both PLD and WAR rely on abilities that nerf said damage.


Remember STR also affects the potency of parry and shield block. Mitigating incoming damage is a good thing, and smaller HP losses are easier for a healer to keep up with than large ones.

Quote:
I could of sworn 1 VIT= 1 DEF just like 1 STR= 1 ATK. You could be right though. I only was able to find my attribute tests for str/dex/vit etc between races, not the ATK/DEF totals.


VIT only adds HP as far as I can tell. And while HP is definitely a thing you want, STR is not meaningless for tanks.
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#40 Aug 03 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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FrozenSherbet wrote:

I would still put all my points into VIT on both GLA and MRD. In the case of GLA and MRD, 450 HP adds an extra 9 HP per tic to your natural regen. If you switch to WAR, 563 HP results in 11 HP per tic.

For instance, if a MRD follows your build and sacrifices 20 points of VIT for STR, they lose 300 HP and 6 HP regen. A WAR loses an additional 75 HP and 2 HP regen. Even though STR increases your damage, both PLD and WAR rely on abilities that nerf said damage.

As far as damage mitigation goes, I would check out this thread of the beta forums.


I checked out the link and I definitely see your point. However, I have to ask where does these calculations come from exactly? I need to trust the source basically. Can you also explain how you get 450HP? How much is each VIT worth? 15HP per point?
#41 Aug 03 2013 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Are you saying that because GLD has more def and a shield that STR is more useful for tanking purposes? I did some minor testing during Phase 3. I could of sworn 1 VIT= 1 DEF just like 1 STR= 1 ATK. You could be right though. I only was able to find my attribute tests for str/dex/vit etc between races, not the ATK/DEF totals.


Nope VIT is purely for health (like PIE is purely for mana). It's actually explained in the beta manual that it doesn't increase defense.

There's been a lot of tests based on what formulas people have been able to figure out (like how Shield Lob/Savage combos are 3.0 modifiers on enmity and Rage of Halore is 5.0 modifier, and that Shield Oath is a passive 2.0 modifier that's applies at the end of the threat calculation. It's even been mathed out based on attack returns, threat returns, and VIT gains through gear (and how much it's worth at level 50 on P3 characters) that it's still flat out better to dump every single point into STR for Gladiator/Paladin.

The percentage of mitigation you gain via 30 points of STR ends up outweighing the 30 points of VIT you gain in health in terms of effectiveness -- and this is even before the added attack power and threat capabilities. Plus, Sword Oath (for when you don't NEED the ridiculous threat from Shield Oath) has been increased from 25 AA bonus to 50 AA bonus.

The post linked below (from FrozenSherbert) shows only the percentage gained per point of STR, but it doesn't show how that % change reflects on your total health (effect health). Health/HP/VIT is only as useful as it is to prevent you from being 3-shot from normal swings/abilities and one-shot from really hard hitting ones (Hellfire, for instance). Beyond those two points health does nothing for you as a serious tank and mitigation is where it matters.

More health is an e-peen and psychological benefit only. It doesn't help you past the point of surviving. STR boosts your mitigation, (that 1% has more effects on your survival than most people realize when RNG is in effect) and helps (even if a tiny bit) push your personal damage higher to get a fight over with sooner. If you are surviving in between a casted healing spell consistenting and not dying immediately after a big hit those points in VIT are utterly wasted and sitting there doing absolutely nothing for you.

You even see this in gear swap happy FFXI. What was more important for a tank? To put on all that +HP gear or to put on gear that mitigated damage as much as possible? Effective. Health.

The regen gained through VIT is a moot point and not even worth seriously considering: you're in a group and you're going to get healed. The chances of that extra 2-3 a tick saving your life is so astronomically low that it's embarrassing to even list that as a reason to dump points into VIT.

Quote:
It's taken down now due to a request from S-E, but there were traits not yet translated on xivdb.com. I know somewhere I saw something about an INT/MND swap and it wasn't from cleric stance.


ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I've found many abilities for those classes on various sites, but nothing in regards to SMN or SCH traits beyond Arcanist of course. Cleric stance doesn't look like ARC and the 2 jobs can use it so I hope you're right.


BG still had the static text listed from earlier and it showed that *SCHOLAR* (and not Arcanist OR Summoner) were granted access to Cleric Stance (and that THM and BLM lost access to it), and I definitely remember seeing that on the changes before reversal on xivdb.com since it was one of the very few exceptions where a job was mentioned on a cross class ability and not the base class itself.

Therefore, based on that, I'd dump all the points into MND and then switch to Cleric Stance when needing to nuke. MP's easier to get and deal with versus raw stats plus the return of healing potency per point of MND is fairly noticeable.
#42 Aug 03 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Even though STR increases your damage, both PLD and WAR rely on abilities that nerf said damage.


Remember STR also affects the potency of parry and shield block. Mitigating incoming damage is a good thing, and smaller HP losses are easier for a healer to keep up with than large ones.

Check the link I included at the bottom of the post. It takes something like +50 STR to increase damage mitigation on parry and shield block by 1%.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:

I would still put all my points into VIT on both GLA and MRD. In the case of GLA and MRD, 450 HP adds an extra 9 HP per tic to your natural regen. If you switch to WAR, 563 HP results in 11 HP per tic.

For instance, if a MRD follows your build and sacrifices 20 points of VIT for STR, they lose 300 HP and 6 HP regen. A WAR loses an additional 75 HP and 2 HP regen. Even though STR increases your damage, both PLD and WAR rely on abilities that nerf said damage.


As far as damage mitigation goes, I would check out this thread of the beta forums.

I checked out the link and I definitely see your point. However, I have to ask where does these calculations come from exactly? I need to trust the source basically. Can you also explain how you get 450HP? How much is each VIT worth? 15HP per point?

I'm just going by the numbers used on the beta forums. Every thread I could find is using +15 HP per point at level 50 with 2% of the total HP being converted to regen.

When it comes to VIT, the big thing for me is the HP regen. If that didn't increase on top of the extra HP, I would say go full STR.
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#43 Aug 03 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:
I'm just going by the numbers used on the beta forums. Every thread I could find is using +15 HP per point at level 50 with 2% of the total HP being converted to regen.

When it comes to VIT, the big thing for me is the HP regen. If that didn't increase on top of the extra HP, I would say go full STR.


Eh...

I can kinda see why it might be nice but it's still not a good enough reason for me. If every 2 (or 3, 4, 5) points actually still increased defense then I'd vote it a winner all around as unlike FFXI you can almost *instantly* see defense changes in this game (which means they got a good working formula, yay!)
#44 Aug 03 2013 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Are you saying that because GLD has more def and a shield that STR is more useful for tanking purposes? I did some minor testing during Phase 3. I could of sworn 1 VIT= 1 DEF just like 1 STR= 1 ATK. You could be right though. I only was able to find my attribute tests for str/dex/vit etc between races, not the ATK/DEF totals.


Nope VIT is purely for health (like PIE is purely for mana). It's actually explained in the beta manual that it doesn't increase defense.

There's been a lot of tests based on what formulas people have been able to figure out (like how Shield Lob/Savage combos are 3.0 modifiers on enmity and Rage of Halore is 5.0 modifier, and that Shield Oath is a passive 2.0 modifier that's applies at the end of the threat calculation. It's even been mathed out based on attack returns, threat returns, and VIT gains through gear (and how much it's worth at level 50 on P3 characters) that it's still flat out better to dump every single point into STR for Gladiator/Paladin.

The percentage of mitigation you gain via 30 points of STR ends up outweighing the 30 points of VIT you gain in health in terms of effectiveness -- and this is even before the added attack power and threat capabilities. Plus, Sword Oath (for when you don't NEED the ridiculous threat from Shield Oath) has been increased from 25 AA bonus to 50 AA bonus.

The post linked below (from FrozenSherbert) shows only the percentage gained per point of STR, but it doesn't show how that % change reflects on your total health (effect health). Health/HP/VIT is only as useful as it is to prevent you from being 3-shot from normal swings/abilities and one-shot from really hard hitting ones (Hellfire, for instance). Beyond those two points health does nothing for you as a serious tank and mitigation is where it matters.

More health is an e-peen and psychological benefit only. It doesn't help you past the point of surviving. STR boosts your mitigation, (that 1% has more effects on your survival than most people realize when RNG is in effect) and helps (even if a tiny bit) push your personal damage higher to get a fight over with sooner. If you are surviving in between a casted healing spell consistenting and not dying immediately after a big hit those points in VIT are utterly wasted and sitting there doing absolutely nothing for you.

You even see this in gear swap happy FFXI. What was more important for a tank? To put on all that +HP gear or to put on gear that mitigated damage as much as possible? Effective. Health.

The regen gained through VIT is a moot point and not even worth seriously considering: you're in a group and you're going to get healed. The chances of that extra 2-3 a tick saving your life is so astronomically low that it's embarrassing to even list that as a reason to dump points into VIT.

Quote:
It's taken down now due to a request from S-E, but there were traits not yet translated on xivdb.com. I know somewhere I saw something about an INT/MND swap and it wasn't from cleric stance.


ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I've found many abilities for those classes on various sites, but nothing in regards to SMN or SCH traits beyond Arcanist of course. Cleric stance doesn't look like ARC and the 2 jobs can use it so I hope you're right.


BG still had the static text listed from earlier and it showed that *SCHOLAR* (and not Arcanist OR Summoner) were granted access to Cleric Stance (and that THM and BLM lost access to it), and I definitely remember seeing that on the changes before reversal on xivdb.com since it was one of the very few exceptions where a job was mentioned on a cross class ability and not the base class itself.

Therefore, based on that, I'd dump all the points into MND and then switch to Cleric Stance when needing to nuke. MP's easier to get and deal with versus raw stats plus the return of healing potency per point of MND is fairly noticeable.

I'd much rather have a guaranteed 9 or 11 HP regen than what could turn out to be 0% damage mitigation. If that 30 STR fails to get you to the next tier, it's completely worthless in that respect.

Let's say one character has a regen of 9 HP per tic higher than someone else. Every 3 seconds, that person gains a measly 9 HP extra. Over 30 seconds, that becomes 90 HP. After 300 seconds, all of a sudden there's a 900 HP difference. So not only do you start out with an extra 450 HP, but over a five minute time period, you pick up an additional 900 HP. For trash mobs, that means absolutely nothing. For things that actually matter, that could potentially make quite a bit of difference.

In the end, it all comes down to what type of healer you have. If your healer is capable of keeping you at 100% HP regardless of curing efficiency, increasing VIT won't help you a single bit. If your healer is more concerned about managing MP, regen will be valuable. In all likelihood, the stats won't make any difference. If MP management is unnecessary, VIT becomes a solo stat. If PLD or WAR have their defense/HP buff up, +30 STR is going to have little to no effect on overall damage.
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#45 Aug 03 2013 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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If that 30 STR fails to get you to the next tier, it's completely worthless in that respect.


Are we completely sure that only whole percentage points count? I realize that's a tough one to test without a lot of data, but if we aren't sure, then it's an assumption we shouldn't make.
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#46 Aug 03 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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FrozenSherbet wrote:

I'd much rather have a guaranteed 9 or 11 HP regen than what could turn out to be 0% damage mitigation. If that 30 STR fails to get you to the next tier, it's completely worthless in that respect.

Let's say one character has a regen of 9 HP per tic higher than someone else. Every 3 seconds, that person gains a measly 9 HP extra. Over 30 seconds, that becomes 90 HP. After 300 seconds, all of a sudden there's a 900 HP difference. So not only do you start out with an extra 450 HP, but over a five minute time period, you pick up an additional 900 HP. For trash mobs, that means absolutely nothing. For things that actually matter, that could potentially make quite a bit of difference.

In the end, it all comes down to what type of healer you have. If your healer is capable of keeping you at 100% HP regardless of curing efficiency, increasing VIT won't help you a single bit. If your healer is more concerned about managing MP, regen will be valuable. In all likelihood, the stats won't make any difference. If MP management is unnecessary, VIT becomes a solo stat. If PLD or WAR have their defense/HP buff up, +30 STR is going to have little to no effect on overall damage.


So basically the argument you're against is that all the str boosting is not going to improve the parry/block rating high enough to warrant the points spent. The damage done is also in question because of the abilities that reduce attack. VIT can be useless as well if you have a good enough healer negating the regen. I suppose if I'm a tank, I'd rather go with VIT if only avoiding a potential one shot.
#47 Aug 03 2013 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
If that 30 STR fails to get you to the next tier, it's completely worthless in that respect.

Are we completely sure that only whole percentage points count? I realize that's a tough one to test without a lot of data, but if we aren't sure, then it's an assumption we shouldn't make.

I don't think we can be sure about anything. We're all working on what amounts to be assumptions. In about three months, pretty much nothing said in this discussion is going to mean much. In my case, I'm mostly debating out of boredom.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
FrozenSherbet wrote:

I'd much rather have a guaranteed 9 or 11 HP regen than what could turn out to be 0% damage mitigation. If that 30 STR fails to get you to the next tier, it's completely worthless in that respect.

Let's say one character has a regen of 9 HP per tic higher than someone else. Every 3 seconds, that person gains a measly 9 HP extra. Over 30 seconds, that becomes 90 HP. After 300 seconds, all of a sudden there's a 900 HP difference. So not only do you start out with an extra 450 HP, but over a five minute time period, you pick up an additional 900 HP. For trash mobs, that means absolutely nothing. For things that actually matter, that could potentially make quite a bit of difference.

In the end, it all comes down to what type of healer you have. If your healer is capable of keeping you at 100% HP regardless of curing efficiency, increasing VIT won't help you a single bit. If your healer is more concerned about managing MP, regen will be valuable. In all likelihood, the stats won't make any difference. If MP management is unnecessary, VIT becomes a solo stat. If PLD or WAR have their defense/HP buff up, +30 STR is going to have little to no effect on overall damage.


So basically the argument you're against is that all the str boosting is not going to improve the parry/block rating high enough to warrant the points spent. The damage done is also in question because of the abilities that reduce attack. VIT can be useless as well if you have a good enough healer negating the regen. I suppose if I'm a tank, I'd rather go with VIT if only avoiding a potential one shot.

Pretty much. Hopefully, a reset will be available so you can change builds depending on the situation. I just find VIT to be a bit more convenient. You really can't go wrong either way.
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#48 Aug 03 2013 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
If that 30 STR fails to get you to the next tier, it's completely worthless in that respect.


Are we completely sure that only whole percentage points count? I realize that's a tough one to test without a lot of data, but if we aren't sure, then it's an assumption we shouldn't make.


I haven't found much actual hard compiled stat data at all. I guess it would have been a waste to do it during beta while things are still in flux.

I'm sure people will be testing and posting and linking and sharing all their Stat findings here soon.

I've got to admit, its so refreshing to see people passing time up to the release date talking about how they think the stats work instead of "Don't give me it's just a beta, this is what release will be... blah, blah," like last time!


#49 Aug 03 2013 at 10:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I've got to admit, its so refreshing to see people passing time up to the release date talking about how they think the stats work instead of "Don't give me it's just a beta, this is what release will be... blah, blah," like last time!


I suppose the difference here is that, unlike 1.0, this one doesn't suck.

Quote:
Pretty much. Hopefully, a reset will be available so you can change builds depending on the situation. I just find VIT to be a bit more convenient. You really can't go wrong either way.


If they really want to continue with this stat allocation system, they have to add a way to reset them. It's just a beginner's trap otherwise, and with no way to fix it other than re-rolling... it's a harsh trap indeed.
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