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#1 Aug 06 2013 at 3:23 AM Rating: Sub-Default
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Hey Final Fantasy XI / XIV community! ,

For starters this post is not meant to bash on anyone, but to create constructive criticism, as I will enjoy to hear what you too have to say. To begin I have a concern to address you with. Why is this game becoming noob friendly? I feel like FFXIV is a great game with great graphics and mechanics but they're leaning more toward the "WoW" model of things. Incorporating things like Dungeons and raids and Max out leveling in less than a week oppose to FFXI, where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve(its not about the end, its about the journey). Also to add, a 2.5 second cool-down on most timers just make the game battles awful to sit through. Fights in FFXI were slow paced, organized and timed where weapon skills were nicely detailed and they looked badass when they went off .. But in this new model of combat there is so much going on with countless spamming of flashes and explosions at any given time that makes the game look as if it were directed by Michael Bay. I think its better to adopt the old system used in FFXI where appreciation played the bigger part of the game. Building up to that given WS, instead of WS's/Combos going off every 2 seconds to where it takes away from the beauty and fun of things. I think the way they're going with things will make the game to where it wouldn't be appreciated as much as the old model of FFXI, that many have learned to love. Why not be original and stick to your bread and butter instead of trying to mimic a different game? I think this game should be both noob and veteran friendly to bring in new players and cater to every gamer(casual or hardcore)in general. Again, Just my thoughts.

These are just a small list of concerns that I would like to have answered or even express your opinions upon. I do have more concerns which i am willing to address such as the HNM system(because we all know HNMs make the game challenging, and who doesn't like the feel of out-claiming an LS and rubbing it in their face when you get that prized low drop percent D-ring you've been drooling for all year, or even wiping to a 2% Cerberus to GOH when your stuns fail, only to be out-claimed by another ls, only to create drama.) **** you might never even see that piece of equipment drop, which adds to the beauty of its rarity and scarceness. Its just what makes the game so great and memorable. What would be the fun if gear was so easily obtained, and max levels were easy to reach? There is no fun in that and that is what i'm trying to get at here. People complain that time sinks are a burden, but its actually the time sink that makes the game so much better. Lets face it, this game has amazing Potential but it just needs to incorporate more ideas from FFXI and merge it with this new one to create the best MMORPG possible.Why do People want everything handed to them?(Easy). If the game becomes noob friendly, in a sense there will be no diversification, no challenges, no fun, and every one will look the same. And to be honest when I play now its almost like no effort was put into gear detail. Everything is copy-paste-repeat. For example compare a Haubergeon in FFXI to a Hauby in FFXIV, its a HUGE difference as the FFXI hauby blows it away opposed to the half-a** appearance of the new one. Everyone looks the same, not to mention the only gear that looks good so far is the AF(and that's saying a little). Everything else looks like something I could put together on a budget at a thrift shop (no offense Yoshida & his team), oppose to the gear in FFXI which was so beautifully and thoughtfully designed. If things remain easy everyone will at some point have the same items without difficulty or consequence in obtaining them and we will essentially have nothing to flaunt or show to our friends, supporters, or haters that we put time and effort into obtaining. It is what ultimately sets apart the grinders from the whiners. It would be a blunt game, where equality is king and to quote "The Incredibles" -"When everyone is Super, no one will be."

-Thanks for chiming in

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 8:36pm by Wint Unlock Thread
#2 Aug 06 2013 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
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i love ff11 and played for 6 years. but i tell you fight 2 years for one piece of equipment is not fun, it's frustrating. now i am older and i don't have as much time as i was student. i still want to enjoy the game so 14 is not bad choice to be easier than 11.
#3 Aug 06 2013 at 4:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well the way I see it if a game gives you "early access" to its content its not noob friendly.

But even if it was I don't mind! I mean I come from Eve online that is one of the most challenging games out there, where everything takes time (a sh*it ton of time to be exact). The result is that its a 10 year old game with 500k subs only (and many of those are players with 2 or 3 accounts, I know because I was one of them as well) it is going well I agree but I doubt it will get to 1mil subs.

What I mean with this is that ARR also wants to undress a larger group of people. Lets be honest not many people played XI. Don't get me wrong FF fans played it and it still has a community but SE doesn't "want" an XI-2 but a new game to get more players.

Besides that we still haven't seen any end game raids (or have we, cause I haven't looked into much info the past month) so I can't say if it is easy or not.

Dungeons need to be accessed early. In my opinion you need early access on them and also have a good variate. I mean..why not? Yoshi kept saying that you get the first levels quite fast but it slows down a lot after 30 level. I can't be sure about it of course but you can't be sure it won't as well so it wont be that easy to get on the end level.

I was playing l2 back in the day and boy....how much I hated the leveling there. When you reached 70+ (or 75 to go to 78) it was near to impossible since only a few mobs gave you exp and that was like 0.06%.

So to sum it up I do not agree with you. FF might be easy now but there is a high chance it won't be in higher levels if we believe Yoshi. Besides that I've never played XI (well I did the trail to be honest but that was for 15 days) and I believe a lot of people that now play ARR have. At least 4-5 of the friends I got into it never did (actually none of them even knew XI existed). But by what I hear from other XI players it's super hard and I do not agree with the "farm those monsters for 4 months" and you "might" get the drop you want.

I want my game to be complex, I want the game to give me new challenges new goals etc. Eve did it right that's why I had 3 accounts in there and played so much but I do not want things in the game that are there simply to slow you down. I do not know if ARR will be that way we will see I guess in a few months.

That's my 2cents in this matter.
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#4 Aug 06 2013 at 4:11 AM Rating: Good
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In a perfect world, SE could get by with just your purchase and subscription, but unfortunately, this is not a perfect world. Also, as time goes on, gamers become more and more demanding and more and more resources are needed to please them. The days of Pac-Man are over outside of the indie scene. SE has one goal when creating this game and that is to make a ton of money. Just be thankful that they got Yoshida, an actual gamer, directing the project or it could be a lot worse than you think it is now.
#5 Aug 06 2013 at 4:23 AM Rating: Good
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In 2004-2005 I played at a beyond hardcore pace, and it still took me at least 10 months to get my MNK to 75. My coworkers hated me, and thought I was doing drugs. But all things considered, that was probably the best gaming experience of my life. Nothing was more relaxing than to sit in a camp and pull mobs for 12+ hours at a time. It was fun to chat away with people, and gain tons of xp. The game was slow paced, and difficult, but it was all worth my time and effort.

I'm gonna miss a lot of what XIV doesn't have, that XI did, but I guess it's a sacrifice I'm gonna have to make. For some reason I'm also very disappointed that magic spells don't come in the form of scrolls we can buy, or have to acquire as a drop, and are instead learned automatically upon attaining a certain level. I was actually looking forward to farming specific mobs for a spell.

So I dunno, maybe it is noob friendly, compared to what XI was, but the big difference is impatient kids won't even be interested in a game like this. I fully expect the XIV community to be vastly mature, responsible, and level headed, which is something you don't see often in a gaming community. So even if it is rather easy reach max level, the content will be difficult enough such that the game won't be noob friendly, nor should we expect to have to deal with the kinds of crowds that noob friendly games attract.
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#6 Aug 06 2013 at 4:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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That game exists, MistahWiggles, it's called FFXI. FFXIV gets to be a different game from that on account of it being a different game.

I also don't understand the slippery slope argument here where "leveling doesn't take years" becomes "everyone gets all the best gear mailed to them for logging in on day one." It's not just the OP here making a claim like that, it comes up a lot.
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#7 Aug 06 2013 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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Leveling your first class will be easy heck maybe even your 2nd or 3rd will be decently easy but this game is built around the factof leveling most if not all jobs.

Sure you can lvl 1 class to 50 and not do jobs but than your gimped. In order to do jobs u need 1 30 and 1 lvl 15. So say I want to be the best healer I can be. Cnj to 30 than acn to 15 than lvl either cnj or whm to 50. Than I would want to level acn to 30 so I can unlock scholar and than lvl to 50 for cross abilitys with acn. THAN do it all over again for THM.

If players want all the ability to choose from they will be leveling ALOT of classes so once you use all your quests up and only have fates leves and instances it will slow down. So I reserve my judgment till than on the leveling speed.

If you remember ffxi is still a game but not what it used to be. It needed to change to get subs. Why would ffxiv set it self up like the old ffxi if it would struggle in the long run? Also saying they need to be fresh and new is funny because that's what ffxiv 1.0 was and it was way to out ta the box and failed.

Sounds to me you want the old ffxi back but those days are long gone. Times have changed and its time to move on and experience the new generation of MMOs. I personally can't wait for this game.
#8 Aug 06 2013 at 4:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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If things remain easy everyone will at some point have the same items without difficulty or consequence in obtaining them and we will essentially have nothing to flaunt or show to our friends, supporters, or haters that we put time and effort into obtaining. It is what ultimately sets apart the grinders from the whiners. It would be a blunt game, where equality is king and to quote "The Incredibles" -"When everyone is Super, no one will be."


First, there are time syncs for those that want them in FFXIV. You can gear-grind your heart out with rare prizes and even more rare multi-materia gear that casual players won't have the time to amass, if it really means that much to you. And if that isn't enough, they will soon raise the cap so you can start all over again to prove you have the time to be best (all over again).

Second, casual MMOs have proven support of a greater number of people than just exclusively hardcore ones. Hardcore players can play a casual MMO for its hardcore content knowing it will survive for years with greater development resources because of its popular appeal rather than try to eek out an existence with exclusively hardcore play and a far tinier population.

Final Fantasy has a giant fanbase who could get into a casual MMO with ease, including former FFXI players who just don't have the time like they used to. There's a huge market for what FFXIV is offering, but FFXI hasn't shut down, either, so choose your preferred style. It's not like you don't have options.

Finally, you may like horses and buggies a great deal. But that really doesn't make you look less undignified when you shake your cane at every passing car that those young whippersnappers insist on driving these days. The genre has changed before and it will change again. The old days are nice to reminisce over, but you can't turn back the clock.
#9 Aug 06 2013 at 5:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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mistahwiggles wrote:
Hey Final Fantasy XI / XIV community! ,

For starters this post is not meant to bash on anyone, but to create constructive criticism, as I will enjoy to hear what you too have to say. To begin I have a concern to address you with. Why is this game becoming noob friendly? I feel like FFXIV is a great game with great graphics and mechanics but they're leaning more toward the "WoW" model of things. Incorporating things like Dungeons and raids and Max out leveling in less than a week oppose to FFXI, where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve(its not about the end, its about the journey). Also to add, a 2.5 second cool-down on most timers just make the game battles awful to sit through. Fights in FFXI were slow paced, organized and timed where weapon skills were nicely detailed and they looked badass when they went off .. But in this new model of combat there is so much going on with countless spamming of flashes and explosions at any given time that makes the game look as if it were directed by Michael Bay. I think its better to adopt the old system used in FFXI where appreciation played the bigger part of the game. Building up to that given WS, instead of WS's/Combos going off every 2 seconds to where it takes away from the beauty and fun of things. I think the way they're going with things will make the game to where it wouldn't be appreciated as much as the old model of FFXI, that many have learned to love. Why not be original and stick to your bread and butter instead of trying to mimic a different game? I think this game should be both noob and veteran friendly to bring in new players and cater to every gamer(casual or hardcore)in general. Again, Just my thoughts.

These are just a small list of concerns that I would like to have answered or even express your opinions upon. I do have more concerns which i am willing to address such as the HNM system(because we all know HNMs make the game challenging, and who doesn't like the feel of out-claiming an LS and rubbing it in their face when you get that prized low drop percent D-ring you've been drooling for all year, or even wiping to a 2% Cerberus to GOH when your stuns fail, only to be out-claimed by another ls, only to create drama.) **** you might never even see that piece of equipment drop, which adds to the beauty of its rarity and scarceness. Its just what makes the game so great and memorable. What would be the fun if gear was so easily obtained, and max levels were easy to reach? There is no fun in that and that is what i'm trying to get at here. People complain that time sinks are a burden, but its actually the time sink that makes the game so much better. Lets face it, this game has amazing Potential but it just needs to incorporate more ideas from FFXI and merge it with this new one to create the best MMORPG possible.Why do People want everything handed to them?(Easy). If the game becomes noob friendly, in a sense there will be no diversification, no challenges, no fun, and every one will look the same. And to be honest when I play now its almost like no effort was put into gear detail. Everything is copy-paste-repeat. For example compare a Haubergeon in FFXI to a Hauby in FFXIV, its a HUGE difference as the FFXI hauby blows it away opposed to the half-a** appearance of the new one. Everyone looks the same, not to mention the only gear that looks good so far is the AF(and that's saying a little). Everything else looks like something I could put together on a budget at a thrift shop (no offense Yoshida & his team), oppose to the gear in FFXI which was so beautifully and thoughtfully designed. If things remain easy everyone will at some point have the same items without difficulty or consequence in obtaining them and we will essentially have nothing to flaunt or show to our friends, supporters, or haters that we put time and effort into obtaining. It is what ultimately sets apart the grinders from the whiners. It would be a blunt game, where equality is king and to quote "The Incredibles" -"When everyone is Super, no one will be."

-Thanks for chiming in



Cause 6 years ago I (like many other people) could spend 12 hours playing FFXI sitting in one spot killing mobs all day and part of the night changing out people as they went to work/school and then getting some japanese people over and over.

Today I can't do that and since the average gamer is 33+ years old no one really can. The stereotypical "basement no lifer" are not real. We have jobs/lifes and can not spend 5+ hours camping/killing HNMs.

It's not that they are making the game this way, it's the fact that we need the game to be this way.
#10 Aug 06 2013 at 5:18 AM Rating: Good
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Please, please, please go and post this on the Beta Forums and see what reaction you get there. :) People are very nice and polite on these forums :P

I understand you have an opinion on the game and although I don't necessarily disagree with all of your points comparing the game to old MMO's etc is neither constructive or that useful. Like many posters said above me, if you don't like it you don't have to play this, but I would urge you to try it out once it its released to see for yourself and if it's compatible with you and your life :)

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 11:21am by EdyNOTB
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#11 Aug 06 2013 at 5:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I played FFXI for 6+ years. I loved the game while I was playing it, I really did. But I absolutely do not want XIV to be like XI. You say you enjoyed the slow pace of combat and building up to WS and I did too... in that game. In XIV, I like how melee characters have more to do than just wait for 100 tp and WS, or occasionally hit a cooldown when it's ready. I love that tanks do more than just spam utsusemi. I also love how the classes actually feel relatively balanced so far.

As far as dungeons and raiding, are you trying to say you'd rather have HNM's and content like sky where it's nothing but endless competition, grind, and trying to beat out botters for claims? If so, I just can't agree with you. I like having a lot of instanced content, so that it's not so exclusionary like XI was. I like being able to do stuff when I want to do stuff, as opposed to being forced to do it during a certain window, or having to wait for a group of 12-18 for basically anything involving endgame.

It sounds like you still enjoy the hardcore, grind it out, constant competition style mmo, and if so, XIV is probably just not the game for you. I'd reccommend looking into Korean mmo's, as many of them tend to be focused more on the grind and content that consumes a crazy amount of time as compared to games like XIV.

In the end, it's all a matter of opinion. You aren't wrong for wanting what you want, I just think you might be interested in the wrong game. Good luck to you with whatever you decide.
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#12 Aug 06 2013 at 5:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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as an ex FFXI player i do agree with you to an extent, i spent a whole summer playing it and only got my RDM to lvl 65 and was still proud of my "achievement", but as one of the gents in this thread stated that was 10 years ago and im too old to do that now so i do appreciate FFXIV allowing me quick access to its content and yes maybe SE learned a thing or two from WOW, not everyone is welling to spend that much time on a game.

all that being said i am confident that the game will get tougher towards end-game or that they will introduce an expansion sometime in the future, after all this is an ongoing project for SE they will have to develop more content if they want the game to survive for years to come, besides this is a Japanese company and from what i heard they like their games challenging.

One more thing: if you feel strongly about this i suggest you post on the official beta tester forum maybe SE will listen and provide something more challenging for those who enjoy the challenge :)
#13 Aug 06 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedLeo wrote:


One more thing: if you feel strongly about this i suggest you post on the official beta tester forum maybe SE will listen and provide something more challenging for those who enjoy the challenge :)


Please don't >_<. The beta forum is filled with people that are waiting for things to rage about.It would be a massacre!
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#14 Aug 06 2013 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
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Guy just seems to be copy-pasting this at various places so it almost feels like trollbait.

Personal thoughts: **** prestige gaming and making it the root of progression. There's no real justification for any singular game task taking years. Bluntly, more than a month is pushing it and I find tolerating longer gaps to ease pressure to on devs to actually produce, you know, new content to enjoy. Hardcores that burn themselves out at both ends only have themselves to blame and have been consistently proven a minority within the genre despite their extremely vocal proclivities. WoW, Rift, FFXI, Aion, whatever... pick any kind of online game that saves progress and you'll find a certain element with unreasonable expectations of their peers. So it's no surprise they fall back to petty insults like casuals being labeled noobs and just wanting **** handed to them when their prestige is threatened. They delude themselves into believing their "dedication" makes them more important and that discoveries they possibly make wouldn't have been found despite potentially hundreds of thousands of other players doing the same thing (and perhaps not going public with it or simply collaborating outside their own personal sphere of influence). And if it's more about wanting brutal hard, well, different strokes. At best I'd be cool with difficulty modes, but no +1 variants or even unique gear. Just make the drop rates better so, in the case of this game, you can outfit more jobs more swiftly and be ready for the next big content release (Again, to pressure the devs to not get lazy). The dirty scrubs might have one or two sets at best in comparison, if they'd even finished one.

/casualwhiteknightout
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#15 Aug 06 2013 at 6:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Even FFXI isn't like FFXI any more.
#16 Aug 06 2013 at 6:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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There are a few contradictions in the OP's post that I just dont understand. How can you on the one hand complain about the GCD and in the next breath comment that FFXIV's battles were superior. Essentially, all battles in FFXI had very long GCD's, it just worked differently.

This brings me to the next point about the "n" posts like this that make up the Internet commentary of ARR and that it that somehow FFXI is considered to be "hard". I played FFXI for about 8 years and never came across anything particularly hard. Time consuming, yes. Painful, yes, irritating, yes ( and fun, yes) but not hard. The difficulty in FFXI was the time it took, and the luck of the draw as to whether you could claim something ahead of a bunch of bots. It was a game of whoever has the fastest Internet wins. That is not hard. It is annoying.

Now, I don't have the time i used to have and whilst I agree that there was a certain satisfaction in getting a particular rare drop that satisfaction was more relief (that I would not have to go though the **** again) rather than any real sense of enjoyment. I honestly think people who enjoy that process (and I was one) are just masochists.

No one knows how hard XiV will be yet as no one has played endgame. Also, no point comparing a new release to an MMO that has been around for so long, but I for one would not play the game the OP is asking for here. I have done that, I have done my time and now I just want to be able to have some fun without losing my wife and kids to do it.

Time has moved on friend, perhaps you should to. Alternatively, I have not heard any rumour of the FFXI servers shutting down any time soon. Enjoy!



Edited, Aug 6th 2013 8:23am by HallieXIV
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#17 Aug 06 2013 at 6:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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First of all, I played FFXI for 5 years and loved playing my WHM but the endless grind with little progression got old. Most of the reasons you listed in your overly long (my opinion) post are the very reasons I ended up leaving FFXI and went to WoW. I am glad that Yoshi-P has decided to take the game in this direction and hasn't given into the "I want FFXI-2" crowd because I just don't have the time to play like I did when I played Ultima Online and then FFXI.

FFXI had some great qualities, it did, but at this point in time in the MMO industry you are asking to be disappointed with the numbers you will get if you made a game that is that big of a time sink. Put yourself in SE's shoes, would you want to go the route that gets you a solid product that has the potential to attract a huge number of subscribers (and thereby, profits) or do you want to go the route that creates a product that will only appeal to a small nitche in the MMO subscribership?

I want SE to succeed with this game because I have been playing thier games since well before the two companies merged. I love this company (not to imply that I'm fan girl, I don't look at SE through rose colored glasses) and the games they put out and I want them to do what is going to make them the most money so that they can continue to put out games that I like.
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#18 Aug 06 2013 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
This brings me to the next point about the "n" posts like this that make up the Internet commentary of ARR and that it that somehow FFXI is considered to be "hard". I played FFXI for about 8 years and never came across anything particularly hard. Time consuming, yes. Painful, yes, irritating, yes ( and fun, yes) but not hard. The difficulty in FFXI was the time it took, and the luck of the draw as to whether you could claim something ahead of a bunch of bots. It was a game of whoever has the fastest Internet wins. That is not hard. It is annoying.


Going to preface this by saying that the following is my opinion. There was plenty of hard content in XI. There was also plenty of time-consuming, annoying content. If you're trying to tell me that Sky Gods when first launched weren't difficult, or proto-Omega/Ultima when launched, or CoP missions, etc, then you probably didn't play the content when it first came out. Down the road they either nerfed it, or people got so overgeared that it became easy, but at launch, the vast majority of the content they released up through Aht Urgahn was very challenging and also incredibly time consuming and annoying to accomplish. It was a combo of both. I played through CoP missions before the nerfs, and it's still some of the more challenging content I've ever done in an mmo.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 8:44am by BartelX
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#19 Aug 06 2013 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
There's no real justification for any singular game task taking years.


I'd say years worth of subscription income is justification.

The problem with FFXI was that it was designed in a way that to get anything done required a significant time investment. This whole time players are paying their fees. It's not that XP parties were difficult, it just took thousands and thousands of kills over months worth of time doing pretty much the same repetitive task to level up so that you could go do other content. It was full of time sinks designed to slow the player down to keep them subscribed longer. Every little thing had a "gotcha" attached to it. What looked like a simple task on the surface ended up being a 5 part chore that would take months to complete. There's plenty of examples of this in FFXI. Sure it had challenging elements, bit it was mostly just trying to work around game design meant to slow down the player. To this day I feel that FFXI was an accidental success. It was terribly designed, yet it had a certain charm.

With that said, SE would be fools to model anything in FFXIV around FFXI. It became clear years ago that people were tired of the old game mechanics and dated graphics. Thats why FFXI changed, and why FFXIV shouldn't have anything to do with its predecessor.
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#20 Aug 06 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
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I played quite a lot of FFXI. Absolutely loved the game, the epic feelings you got now and then, the journey to 75 for the first job (when it used to be a journey not a sprint) and so on. In fact, I still have my account active, even if I log in rarely, mostly to support the game and SE. It is, for all its frustration generation and sometimes broken mechanics, a very special, very cool game.

However, there's no denying that times have changed and our lives as well. So FFXI-2 is not viable these days, not with the budgets involved and the amount of entertainment that is being thrown at the current audiences every single day, from big franchises, the rise of the indie due to digital distribution and mobile gaming as well. So it's clear that the game must be different, more accessible and so on.

So letting all this hardcore stuff aside, there are some things that I miss from FFXI, which could maybe be altered so that they are not hardcore, but also help into building a more interesting world. I'll list just a couple of them below:

1. Different aggro mechanics and avoiding it
The fact that the mobs in FFXI aggroed based on different things (sight, sound, magic, HP etc.) and the fact that you could shield yourself against a specific agrro type (invisible, sneak etc.) was something that made the universe more interesting, more consistent and also gave birth to interesting "on the edge" situations while exploring.

While introducing ALL the aggro mechanics may be a bit too much, I would really love to see at least some differences between mobs. For instance, having a dungeon with vampires that are drawn to you when you're bleeding (<50% HP) is a mechanic that doesn't seem TOO hardcore to me, it's quite easy to understand and so on.

Also, being able to make yourself invisible (using a potion or helped by a mage) is - again - something very easy to understand and it could generate nice exploratory situations.

2. Mobs spawning on different conditions
I would very much like to see some mobs spawning on various conditions. Bats at night, werewolves on full moon, fire elementals on hot weather and so on. Again, it was making the universe more interesting and consistent. It's even a pity to have weather and a day/night cycle that influences the game in no way whatsoever (except weather influencing fishing, which has been confirmed). Ok, maybe having spells and abilities influenced by weather is too much, too hardcore, but having different mobs spawning at different times doesn't seem something super wicked.

Again, I'm not crying for something super hardcore, but these things would be nice, IMHO.





Edited, Aug 6th 2013 9:03am by griffonu
#21 Aug 06 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Default
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Completely agree, and find it pretty annoying when people like Callinon make troll comments like "go play FFXI then".

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 9:07am by Killua125
#22 Aug 06 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Completely agree, and find it pretty annoying when people like Callinon tell make troll comments like "go play FFXI then".


Am I the only person who sees the supreme irony of this communities biggest troll commenting on someone else's trolling.

Lol.
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#23 Aug 06 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Default
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It is a troll comment though IMO. Especially with FFXI being a very dated game now, very hard to get into, very different from its original self, etc.

I mean, FFXI can't be updated in a lot of ways because of the "PS2 limitations", it's pretty trollish and ridiculous that if someone wants the new Final Fantasy online to have something in common with XI that they should just go play that.

Yes XI is different. No Yoshi-P didn't have to pretend it doesn't exist (like he did, got 100% "inspiration" from World of Warcraft, RIFT, and Korean MMOs)

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 9:17am by Killua125
#24 Aug 06 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
Seriha wrote:
There's no real justification for any singular game task taking years.


I'd say years worth of subscription income is justification.

A bit of a no-brainer with that the goal of the sub model, but at the risk of veering off into nit-picking semantics, I look to it more as giving players lots of little goals to accomplish being more favorable than a few big ones.

For example, consider the number of equipment slots we have. What if getting Best-In-Slot took a month apiece, to use my hard limit at, say, 10 hours of play a week. You'll certainly succeed in stringing players along for a year+, but at what point does the repetition become more depressing than engaging? We should expect new content to come out during this span, right? And if you're unlucky, something you worked toward might even get out-dated, basically renewing the length of the grind.

These games are about making our avatars better. I get that some players want to be seen as better than others, but at the same time, I don't look to that under the mind set of, "In order for me to succeed, others must fail!" This may manifest in limited resources or even the PvP sphere (obviously), but I also consider how some random guy's playing on a server I'll never interact with really affects me. The sensible answer is that it doesn't and telling him that he doesn't do X as I do X means he'll never get Y would otherwise make me a selfish prick. Enter my usual parade for multiple paths to the same destination in my frequent defenses of the casual player in various MMO forums over the years. Sadly, I've yet to really see a dev embrace this anywhere, as I hold a sneaking suspicion they either believe the hype that prestige is required or are among that vocal minority of players, themselves... so there's a bit of playing favorites that goes on. Yoshi's admission to being a hardcore and how he'd design a MMO differently if this wasn't a FF title scares me on this front. But we'll see.

Back to little goals, though. Would people find the game more appealing if it took a month or two to fully gear an individual job? The number of jobs has certainly been promised to increase. And sure, you may have some gear overlap here and there. As well, not everyone will enjoy playing everything or certain roles. There are times I feel like people have been conditioned into believing that taking a break from a MMO is unconditionally a bad thing. From a mechanical standpoint, yes, it can be if there are no "catch up" mechanisms or incentives for more advanced players to help out the lowbies. But there's also a social element to this. Taking the time to play another game for comparison purposes, do RL things, or whatever can help refresh interest or actualize a non-bias perspective. Do people need to play 24/7? Nope. Is someone's $14.99 or whatever worth more than someone else's? Nope. Are you a better player because you went 1/1 on a drop while someone's gone 0/100? Nope.

SE may want to spend as little as possible to retain as many as possible for as long as possible, but I find that a slippery slope in today's MMO market. People do have options now, unlike 2004 where it was FFXI or EQ, then WoW a year later. People are also older and wiser to the trappings of the genre. As much as some crave that coveted WoW-killer or major step of innovation, I feel like the humbler approach of not treating us as soulless money-lobbing drones and not doing the bare minimum to be the real defining factor these days. Frankly, they're gonna have to in order to justify the sub model in the long term, too.
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#25 Aug 06 2013 at 7:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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mistahwiggles wrote:
where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve


Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it, just something to check off your to-do list.

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

I played FFXI for 7 years, and I only felt accomplishment on my first year of playing. Those accomplishments were beating Maat as RDM, getting level 75 for the first time, learning how to tank, and defeating the Ark Angels with my linkshell when they were still considered hard. You wanna know what happened after that? I realized none of that **** mattered, because you don't get anything out of it. And then from that point on I simply went to endgame events for the community, and what I get out of it was just a bonus. Eventually the friends I made over the first year quit either due to RL or getting burned out, and I continued playing on and off.

If you attempted to create FFXI-2 within FFXIV, the game would not succeed. And it's not because of what I said before. It's because the best thing about FFXI was the community. The game's combat was so mindnumbingly slow that you had to do something else to fill the void, and that usually goes to talking to other people. FFXIV's combat system does not permit this, especially not in boss battles. You cannot have long-winded conversations because you're constantly pressing buttons to keep your rotation going. FFXI players would notice this and either adapt, or leave. And non-FFXI players will have to do the same. In a market full of MMOs, especially ones that are F2P, I have no doubt that the newcomers would immediately become fatigued of the game and stop playing.

FFXI is a game for a niche audience, an audience that had the time and patience to grind content for years and years and years. I don't mind it's existence, and I don't regret playing it. But I played it long enough to know that the game has a massive number of problems, and that also includes the tedious, unfulfilling grind. Yoshi-P made the right call in avoiding that.
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#26 Aug 06 2013 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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HeroMystic wrote:
mistahwiggles wrote:
where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve


Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it, just something to check off your to-do list.

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

I played FFXI for 7 years, and I only felt accomplishment on my first year of playing. Those accomplishments were beating Maat as RDM, getting level 75 for the first time, learning how to tank, and defeating the Ark Angels with my linkshell when they were still considered hard. You wanna know what happened after that? I realized none of that sh*t mattered, because you don't get anything out of it. And then from that point on I simply went to endgame events for the community, and what I get out of it was just a bonus. Eventually the friends I made over the first year quit either due to RL or getting burned out, and I continued playing on and off.


I realize this is just your opinion, but when you say stuff like you're tired of FFXI players arguing that they got a sense of accomplishment from the game and that nothing had a sense of accomplishment, it seems very close-minded. Maybe you didn't, but I certainly did. The moment when my byakko's haidate finally dropped, or my Ace's Helm, or beating CoP, or any number of other accomplishments in game definitely made me feel great. I've never got that same feeling out of another game. Looking back, I realize that it's mostly because of the insane time commitment it required, but it was still an amazing feeling when I finally did "check that next item off my to-do list".

So while you may be tired of the argument, I myself see it as a valid one. That doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. I guess I'm just saying I get tired of having to defend what I liked in XI just because others didn't. Please don't infer that this means I want XIV to be like XI, because I absolutely don't. Just don't discount other peoples point of view simply because "you're tired of it".
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#27 Aug 06 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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1) Making the game accessible to casual or new players is crucial in the modern MMO era for long term success. That doesn't mean the entire game needs to or should be catered to casual players, but the design of the game can't be a stone wall that turns away the curious and only admits those who are committed to excellence on day one.

2) The flashy graphics: They are a bit over the top when you get a lot of people together in an area, but I think that players want combat that feels dynamic and impactful and flashy graphics and sound effects help create that feeling, so I think they're here to stay. That may not be how it was on FFXI, but it's how the Final Fantasy series in general has gone, so it's still very much in character. Just one of those time where you have to put on your dark sunglasses and "deal with it."

3) "Who doesn't love competing for HNMs?" Yea, is this a serious question? Who DOESN'T love that? Uhhh, 99.8% of the population of FFXI doesn't love it. It's a terrible design in every single way. It gives RMT a valuable commodity to try to monopolize, provides massive incentive to hack and bot, etc, on top of just being a frustrating bottle neck for most players. I don't know a single person who liked killing pop mobs or waiting at a spawn point with 15 other people hoping they could get claim on a mob before it even visually appeared, but knowing that they'd probably lose to a JP or hacker every time.

4) Ease of advancement: I actually agree with this somewhat. The nice thing about a game where you accomplish things easily is that you get those rewards up front and that makes you feel good about yourself, but in the long run, it creates other problems like a feeling that the game is hollow, as well as a need for an incredible amount of content to keep the hamster wheel going. From what we can see so far, gear choices in FFXIV do look extremely boring and vanilla, and the entire concept of end game character advancement is the very shallow and unsatisfying WoW style of tiered gear sets. I do think this is a problem for many people, though there are others who will be endlessly entertained by the notion of exchanging their sword of awesome +1 for a sword of awesome +2, and later, a +3, +4, etc.

I don't see anything like FFXI where you have major milestones in the development of your character, from getting a chobobo to getting an airship pass to unlocking your subjob or your first advanced job, to getting your AF, gobbie bags, etc. All of that stuff took a lot of time, but it was important, permanent stuff that you would never replace or outgrow, and it made it feel like you had really accomplished something, even though in the end it's all 0s and 1s, and not real.

I think any good MMO does need moments of "Finally, I accomplished it!" that aren't all gear centric, especially in a game like this where gear is clearly meant to be replaced at regular intervals. So far FFXIV doesn't have any of that, and it's a problem.
#28 Aug 06 2013 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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HeroMystic wrote:
mistahwiggles wrote:
where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve


Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it, just something to check off your to-do list.


Looks like you spelled "my" incorrectly, as "your." You don't speak for any one but YOU.

FFXI had many moments where many players felt tremendous sense of accomplishment, whether it's beating CoP, maxing out a crafing skill, getting full AF for the first time, beating Maat, getting relic weapon, a black belt, a peacock charm, or whatever difficult goal some one set and then exceeded. There was, for most of FFXI, a lot of ways to measure growth, both for your character and for yourself.

Quote:

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.


You said it, and you were wrong to say it for any one but yourself, so deal with the fact that FFXI players will always make this argument, because it was and will always be truth for many of us. I played FFXI on and off for 5 years, played WoW for almost 7 years, and apart from beating Yogg Saron for the first time and making "Gladiator" the first time, I never felt anything in WoW that measured up to the sense of accomplishment I regularly felt in FFXI. The fact that so many other people feel the same way should be a clue (but obviously, it isn't) that your own experience is not universal.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 10:03am by KarlHungis
#29 Aug 06 2013 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
It is a troll comment though IMO. Especially with FFXI being a very dated game now, very hard to get into, very different from its original self, etc.

I mean, FFXI can't be updated in a lot of ways because of the "PS2 limitations", it's pretty trollish and ridiculous that if someone wants the new Final Fantasy online to have something in common with XI that they should just go play that.

Yes XI is different. No Yoshi-P didn't have to pretend it doesn't exist (like he did, got 100% "inspiration" from World of Warcraft, RIFT, and Korean MMOs)

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 9:17am by Killua125



XIV and XI are separate entities though. To draw inspiration from those other games would ultimately be more favourable in the long game. Those who didn't like XI wouldn't like a prettier version of it either. It was never going to be like XI, it's like expecting FFXIII to be like FFVII. It draws character ideas from it and nothing more than the regular series staples.
#30 Aug 06 2013 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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Adzieboy wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
It is a troll comment though IMO. Especially with FFXI being a very dated game now, very hard to get into, very different from its original self, etc.

I mean, FFXI can't be updated in a lot of ways because of the "PS2 limitations", it's pretty trollish and ridiculous that if someone wants the new Final Fantasy online to have something in common with XI that they should just go play that.

Yes XI is different. No Yoshi-P didn't have to pretend it doesn't exist (like he did, got 100% "inspiration" from World of Warcraft, RIFT, and Korean MMOs)

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 9:17am by Killua125



XIV and XI are separate entities though. To draw inspiration from those other games would ultimately be more favourable in the long game. Those who didn't like XI wouldn't like a prettier version of it either. It was never going to be like XI, it's like expecting FFXIII to be like FFVII. It draws character ideas from it and nothing more than the regular series staples.


Thing is, there actually are a fair number of similarities between XI and XIV... such as all classes on 1 character, same basic ideas for races, 3 factions, many of the same abilities and spells (or very similar, flash, provoke, berserk, blizzard, etc), similar methods of travel, many of the same monster types, etc. It's funny, because Killua is always whining about how XIV ripped everything from XI, and now he's saying they have nothing in common. Yet he's calling others the trolls... hypocrisy much?
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#31 Aug 06 2013 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
mistahwiggles wrote:
where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve


Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it, just something to check off your to-do list.

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

I played FFXI for 7 years, and I only felt accomplishment on my first year of playing. Those accomplishments were beating Maat as RDM, getting level 75 for the first time, learning how to tank, and defeating the Ark Angels with my linkshell when they were still considered hard. You wanna know what happened after that? I realized none of that sh*t mattered, because you don't get anything out of it. And then from that point on I simply went to endgame events for the community, and what I get out of it was just a bonus. Eventually the friends I made over the first year quit either due to RL or getting burned out, and I continued playing on and off.


I realize this is just your opinion, but when you say stuff like you're tired of FFXI players arguing that they got a sense of accomplishment from the game and that nothing had a sense of accomplishment, it seems very close-minded. Maybe you didn't, but I certainly did. The moment when my byakko's haidate finally dropped, or my Ace's Helm, or beating CoP, or any number of other accomplishments in game definitely made me feel great. I've never got that same feeling out of another game. Looking back, I realize that it's mostly because of the insane time commitment it required, but it was still an amazing feeling when I finally did "check that next item off my to-do list".

So while you may be tired of the argument, I myself see it as a valid one. That doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. I guess I'm just saying I get tired of having to defend what I liked in XI just because others didn't. Please don't infer that this means I want XIV to be like XI, because I absolutely don't. Just don't discount other peoples point of view simply because "you're tired of it".


I admit my opinion is strong, but much as you get tired of having to defend what you liked about XI, I get tired of having to defend XIV (or any non-FFXI) game that doesn't have those elements and thus claiming there's a "lack" of accomplishment to it just because it wasn't a massive timesink.

You don't have to defend your point. If you enjoyed the game, that's completely fine and I don't mind that. I never said anything about it being an invalid argument either, just a tired one. It's not going to happen in FFXIV and I simply wish people would realize that others prefer something different, even people who have played FFXI.

My point is, it goes both ways. You can have a sense of accomplishment beyond taking months, or even years, to grind something.

EDIT:
KarlHungis wrote:
You said it, and you were wrong to say it for any one but yourself, so deal with the fact that FFXI players will always make this argument, because it was and will always be truth for many of us. I played FFXI on and off for 5 years, played WoW for almost 7 years, and apart from beating Yogg Saron for the first time and making "Gladiator" the first time, I never felt anything in WoW that measured up to the sense of accomplishment I regularly felt in FFXI. The fact that so many other people feel the same way should be a clue (but obviously, it isn't) that your own experience is not universal.


Same as above. Just because many players see it as a huge accomplishment, doesn't mean everyone else does either. I am just an example of the opposite side. Am I speaking for everyone? No. But to act as if that sense of accomplishment is only valid because you took months/years to complete it is a complete wash. Getting level 75 is overwritten by the fact that you have to do merits, completing your AF or AF2 gear is overwritten by the fact that most of them are terrible. Getting Relics is overwritten by the fact that they suck compared to the new weapons in Abyssea and SoA. And now FFXI players mostly state that Abyssea destroyed the game they loved and are finding a new home.

The reality is while no one has had the same experience, FFXI players talk as if it things don't take forever, there's no sense of accomplishment at all. This is 100% untrue.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 9:27am by HeroMystic
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#32 Aug 06 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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HeroMystic wrote:
I admit my opinion is strong, but much as you get tired of having to defend what you liked about XI, I get tired of having to defend XIV (or any non-FFXI) game that doesn't have those elements and thus claiming there's a "lack" of accomplishment to it just because it wasn't a massive timesink.

You don't have to defend your point. If you enjoyed the game, that's completely fine and I don't mind that. I never said anything about it being an invalid argument either, just a tired one. It's not going to happen in FFXIV and I simply wish people would realize that others prefer something different, even people who have played FFXI.

My point is, it goes both ways. You can have a sense of accomplishment beyond taking months, or even years, to grind something.


The problem I had with your post was that it seemed like you were discounting others opinions about the game because you didn't feel that way. For a specific example, you open your argument by saying: "Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it". That just seems like a very nescient response based solely in your own personal views. As I said, I respect your opinion that the game didn't give you a sense of accomplishment, but your post made it seem like you didn't respect the opinions of those who did get that feeling from the game.

Also, nowhere in my post did I say you can't get that sense from different styles of games, I said that I personally haven't gotten that same level from a game since. I'm not sure why you're having to defend XIV, at least not from me. I love the game and am very glad it's not like XI. I'm past that phase in my life and not looking for a massive grind anymore. I just didn't like the way you approached your position on XI, making it seem like what you said was a fact and that people were wrong for gaining a sense of accomplishment from the game.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 10:24am by BartelX
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#33 Aug 06 2013 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
Completely agree, and find it pretty annoying when people like Callinon make troll comments like "go play FFXI then".


Screenshot


Killua125 wrote:
It is a troll comment though IMO. Especially with FFXI being a very dated game now, very hard to get into, very different from its original self, etc.


But that's what he's asking for. He's asking for dated mechanics and a sloggy grindfest. It's fine to want that, but that game has been made already.

I loved FFXI. I played it for 4 years starting in 2004. My first level 75 job took me two of those years to do. I did the NM camping, I did the story missions, I did the xNMs, I did the needing a party of six to cross the street for a hot dog.

I don't think I'm the only person who stopped playing FFXI for a reason. I'm older now, I have a business to run. I don't have hours on end to sit in one place not accomplishing anything. I still love MMOs, but I would never play FFXI today.

I am not the only person who fits that description.

Killua125 wrote:
I mean, FFXI can't be updated in a lot of ways because of the "PS2 limitations", it's pretty trollish and ridiculous that if someone wants the new Final Fantasy online to have something in common with XI that they should just go play that.

Yes XI is different. No Yoshi-P didn't have to pretend it doesn't exist (like he did, got 100% "inspiration" from World of Warcraft, RIFT, and Korean MMOs)


Didn't I read somewhere else that, at one point, Yoshi said that anything that was in FFXI could be in FFXIV? Like.. gameplay features I mean, not design concepts? I thought I read that somewhere, I may have to track it down later. Unless I was hallucinating when I saw that, it doesn't sound like Yoshi is ignoring anything.

I never said XIV couldn't take inspiration from XI. MMOs take inspiration from other MMOs. Final Fantasies take inspiration from other Final Fantasies. But taking inspiration doesn't mean carbon copy. It's also too early for you or anyone else to know what features will be added down the line.

Adzieboy wrote:
XIV and XI are separate entities though.


Exactly.

The two games are different. It's ok for them to not be the same.
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#34 Aug 06 2013 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I guess my question is how is the leveling system in XI better than XIV? Do you really think there is any more skill in pulling single mobs in a row to level than actually running dungeons and getting invaluable experience working as a group with different mechanics on multiple dungeon bosses?

This leveling system is very similar to SWTOR which I have played since leaving XI due to time restrictions. I had just as many memories leveling and met good people and joined a good guild just like I did in XI. My good memories in XI didn't revolve around grinding to level, it was doing things as a small group of friends. My most fond memory actually is me and my crew camping out to get me the JoyToy for my Warrior. Took a while but we did it and had fun doing it. Now it wasn't fun camping that spawn window, it was fun doing something with my ingame friends. We could have had just as much fun if we were doing multiple quests to get each of us items instead of spending weeks just to get me my sword.

There will be higher tiers in XIV that casual gamers like me won't be able to accomplish, that will leave the "elite" (people with more time) the ability to get the uber gear us normal folk won't get. Difference is you won't have to dedicate as much time to do so, not camping spawn windows but working game strategies to beat the mob and get the drop.

It just annoys me when people confuse having more game play time for the better ability to play the game better.

Quote:
I don't think I'm the only person who stopped playing FFXI for a reason. I'm older now, I have a business to run. I don't have hours on end to sit in one place not accomplishing anything. I still love MMOs, but I would never play FFXI today.


Best quote ever, I am married and have 3 kids. I can't sit down and play a 3 day weekend straight like I used to be able to. I happen to like the idea of games catering to people like me AND having the next tier of gameplay for people who can accomplish those things. I wanted a Ridill so bad in FFXI, but I knew to my game restrictions I would never be able to get it. I didn't resent those who had it, but I did feel very left out because there was a huge gap for us casual players in FFXI.


Edited, Aug 6th 2013 10:32am by Techsupport
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#35 Aug 06 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

You said it, and you were wrong to say it for any one but yourself, so deal with the fact that FFXI players will always make this argument, because it was and will always be truth for many of us. I played FFXI on and off for 5 years, played WoW for almost 7 years, and apart from beating Yogg Saron for the first time and making "Gladiator" the first time, I never felt anything in WoW that measured up to the sense of accomplishment I regularly felt in FFXI. The fact that so many other people feel the same way should be a clue (but obviously, it isn't) that your own experience is not universal.

Yet you played WoW longer? I feel like there's some sense of denial going on, long-time WoW embitterment (FFXI players get it, too~), or maybe a bit of "FFXI popped my MMO cherry" nostalgia if it was actually your first essentially ruining subsequent accomplishments because it just wasn't the same the second/third/etc. time around.

I also find it silly you claim XIV to have no milestones, but here, have a few:
- Getting to 10 so you can unlock and change classes.
- Completing level 15 storyline mission and getting airship access.
- Unlocking job/class abilities from quests.
- Unlocking jobs from classes at 30.
- Getting retainer and AH access.
- Getting your chocobo companion.

...this is just what we've seen out of beta. Certainly you can expect more story content, artifact quests, and who knows what other surprises as well as an actual achievement system. You're basically making the same mistake you accuse HM of making by simply omitting the "for you" or "for me" in saying there's nothing to do. Which, well, is a lie.

BartelX wrote:
That just seems like a very nescient response based solely in your own personal views.

It probably shouldn't be much of a shocker that I align myself more with HM's terse output, but regardless of personal opinion, you can't really shake that some get more... invested, no, addicted to certain aspects of these games. Perhaps its intentional by the devs or just a psychological weakness in the individual, I don't know. What I do know is that when I see the usual, "I want such and such to be like FFXI!" epithets, it too often glorifies the good without giving the bad a fair acknowledgment. Yeah, the (H)NM game is an example. Forced partying for more mundane tasks like EXPing is another. Long-time job issues were another can of worms, too. Fundamentally, we need to stop and think that SE could have just brought FFXI into the next decade, but instead they opted for a new game (for better or worse under Tanaka's leadership). This carries the implication that maybe they thought not all was well with XI or that, indeed, times have changed and things that worked then wouldn't work now. The bridges XI burned with people would be hard to repair even with an overhaul. Thus, fresh start.

I can then say people overvalue digital goods. This carries well into endgame balancing, the economy, and how the community behaves. It shouldn't be surprising that I then correlate prestige to the precious and rare goods within a given game as they outright affect our growth and performance. I, too, want more people to play, and in turn give everyone a better chance to expand the community. At the same time, I feel those very prestige walls contradict that desire and instead segregate players into groups where the greater refuses to interact with the lesser. Art may imitate life, but I also try to remember these are games first.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 11:01am by Seriha
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#36 Aug 06 2013 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
The problem I had with your post was that it seemed like you were discounting others opinions about the game because you didn't feel that way. For a specific example, you open your argument by saying: "Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it". That just seems like a very nescient response based solely in your own personal views. As I said, I respect your opinion that the game didn't give you a sense of accomplishment, but your post made it seem like you didn't respect the opinions of those who did get that feeling from the game.


The intent behind my post was to show that just because things took forever, that doesn't mean there's a sense of accomplishment to it is bigger than everyone else's. I said what I said because I was admittedly annoyed by the same tired argument from seemingly the same group of players. That said, I still stand by my words. It's been a view I've had for a very long time.

I'm not defending the game towards you, persay, because I respect your opinion as well. But there are a lot of problems with FFXI that I feel players have looked past simply because they got used to it and saw it as the norm, and wanting FFXIV to be like FFXI makes me feel like they're not willing to break out of their bubble. I've had massive fun with other MMOs, and even if it didn't take forever, I can say the game is fun the whole way through. I can legitimately tell my friends to play this game because you won't have to "work around" the problems that FFXI had.

No one is wrong for having that sense of accomplishment in XI. I didn't, and if people asked me how I felt about FFXI, I will stand by what I said and I will not sugarcoat any of it by saying "It's just my opinion". I see that as a suppressant of my experiences and I don't feel anyone has to hide behind that phrase just because it's an unpopular opinion.
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#37 Aug 06 2013 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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I really wish people would take the game for what it's offering and try it without preconceptions about what they've already experienced in other games. Yes it borrows from other games, but perhaps the entire game as a whole will work once you filter out your expectations based upon what you've played in other games.
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#38 Aug 06 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
BartelX wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
mistahwiggles wrote:
where things took time and effort and a sense of accomplishment to achieve


Nothing in FFXI had a sense of accomplishment to it, just something to check off your to-do list.

There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

I played FFXI for 7 years, and I only felt accomplishment on my first year of playing. Those accomplishments were beating Maat as RDM, getting level 75 for the first time, learning how to tank, and defeating the Ark Angels with my linkshell when they were still considered hard. You wanna know what happened after that? I realized none of that sh*t mattered, because you don't get anything out of it. And then from that point on I simply went to endgame events for the community, and what I get out of it was just a bonus. Eventually the friends I made over the first year quit either due to RL or getting burned out, and I continued playing on and off.


I realize this is just your opinion, but when you say stuff like you're tired of FFXI players arguing that they got a sense of accomplishment from the game and that nothing had a sense of accomplishment, it seems very close-minded. Maybe you didn't, but I certainly did. The moment when my byakko's haidate finally dropped, or my Ace's Helm, or beating CoP, or any number of other accomplishments in game definitely made me feel great. I've never got that same feeling out of another game. Looking back, I realize that it's mostly because of the insane time commitment it required, but it was still an amazing feeling when I finally did "check that next item off my to-do list".

So while you may be tired of the argument, I myself see it as a valid one. That doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it. I guess I'm just saying I get tired of having to defend what I liked in XI just because others didn't. Please don't infer that this means I want XIV to be like XI, because I absolutely don't. Just don't discount other peoples point of view simply because "you're tired of it".


Absolutely agree 100%. Rate up, good sir! When my Byakko pants dropped after a 3 month wait in line, I was ecstatic! It really did feel like an accomplishment because of all the time and work I put into it with those fellow linkshell companions. I still have fond memories of those folks and all the places we went and the things we did together.

That doesn't mean that I need ffxiv to be the same, though. That was then, this is now. I expect ffxiv to provide me with just as many fond memories as ffxi did. That's all I can hope for.
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#39 Aug 06 2013 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
There, I said it. I'm absolutely tired of FFXI players making this argument.

You said it, and you were wrong to say it for any one but yourself, so deal with the fact that FFXI players will always make this argument, because it was and will always be truth for many of us. I played FFXI on and off for 5 years, played WoW for almost 7 years, and apart from beating Yogg Saron for the first time and making "Gladiator" the first time, I never felt anything in WoW that measured up to the sense of accomplishment I regularly felt in FFXI. The fact that so many other people feel the same way should be a clue (but obviously, it isn't) that your own experience is not universal.

Yet you played WoW longer? I feel like there's some sense of denial going on,


Your instincts are way off. I played WoW longer because Blizzard's customer service mentality was light years ahead of S-E, and because I had far more friends playing WoW than FFXI. There were also a lot of features about WoW that I consider superior, such as the UI and combat. I'm not at all bitter about WoW, I enjoyed it for what it was, and I played it for a long time, but in the end, there's only so many spices that could be added to that soup.

I'm also not bitter about FFXI. I think S-E accomplished some unprecedented things with FFXI, from the Job system and the concept of being able to accomplish everything on one character (which they brought back in FFXIV, so kudos to them) and as I have already mentioned, the fact that there are MANY things to accomplish and feel pride in other than pure "I have higher stats" epeenage. That they don't recognize the value of those things in the design of FF14 is a bit of a failure, IMO, but that doesn't mean that it won't still be a very enjoyable game or have other aspects that set it apart from other MMOs. I just believe there are some ways it could be better than it is, and this is one of those ways.

I think it's funny that you would disagree even a little bit or find fault with this because a lot of the things I'm talking about are "non elitist" goals that were accomplished in bite sized, but many staged processes. The sorts of things that you claim up and down should comprise the end game of FFXIV. I won't try to psycho analyze what it is that you "really" want in an MMO, because I think it's ignorant to think we have some deep insight into each other on the internet. As far as I am concerned, the apparent contradiction must simply be a break down in comunication.

I really think you should take this same approach instead of condescendingly thinking that you have some lens of expertise through which to interpret my comments. Your best bet at comprehension is to just take what I say about my opinions and my preferences as being the literal truth. It's disrespectful and frankly pretty stupid to think you know better than I do what I like or don't like.

Now finally, you mentioned milestones in FFXIV and I agree that they exist, but the difference between milestones in FFXIV and FFXI is that they mostly occur while still in the "learning" stage of the game and with such hand holding that they really aren't accomplishents in any way. I don't think that getting an airship pass has to be an accomplishment, it can simply be a method of gating content and opening up the world, but without something to take that spot, the game lacks texture that could otherwise exist.
#40 Aug 06 2013 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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HeroMystic wrote:
The intent behind my post was to show that just because things took forever, that doesn't mean there's a sense of accomplishment to it is bigger than everyone else's. I said what I said because I was admittedly annoyed by the same tired argument from seemingly the same group of players. That said, I still stand by my words. It's been a view I've had for a very long time.

I'm not defending the game towards you, persay, because I respect your opinion as well. But there are a lot of problems with FFXI that I feel players have looked past simply because they got used to it and saw it as the norm, and wanting FFXIV to be like FFXI makes me feel like they're not willing to break out of their bubble. I've had massive fun with other MMOs, and even if it didn't take forever, I can say the game is fun the whole way through. I can legitimately tell my friends to play this game because you won't have to "work around" the problems that FFXI had.

No one is wrong for having that sense of accomplishment in XI. I didn't, and if people asked me how I felt about FFXI, I will stand by what I said and I will not sugarcoat any of it by saying "It's just my opinion". I see that as a suppressant of my experiences and I don't feel anyone has to hide behind that phrase just because it's an unpopular opinion.


This argument is starting to get very circular, so I'm just going to close with saying that having an opinion on something is absolutely valid and appreciated. Stating something as if it's a fact however, will always cause controversy. Whether or not you meant to, your post came off very one-sided, completely discounting those who did gain a sense of accomplishment from goals in FFXI. I also don't think adding that it's your opinion is sugar-coating anything, I think it is just letting people know that you are speaking from your own point of view, instead of in absolutes, which is what your OP came off as.

I think we're in agreement on the direction of XIV, and we both want it to be pretty different from XI.
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#41 Aug 06 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I really wish people would take the game for what it's offering and try it without preconceptions about what they've already experienced in other games. Yes it borrows from other games, but perhaps the entire game as a whole will work once you filter out your expectations based upon what you've played in other games.


Wint, that's impossible. We, human beings, can never experience anything without the context of everything that came before. You cannot un-experience previous games or MMOs and remove them from the way you interpret a new MMO. It would be awesome if that were possible, since that would allow people to have that "first MMO" magical experience again, but it's just not possible.

We can be open to the possibility of new experiences and new ideas, but when evaluating a game such as FFXIV which mainly consists of things we've already experienced in one way or another, it's impossible not to have some preferences or opinions.
#42 Aug 06 2013 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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KarlHungis wrote:
Wint wrote:
I really wish people would take the game for what it's offering and try it without preconceptions about what they've already experienced in other games. Yes it borrows from other games, but perhaps the entire game as a whole will work once you filter out your expectations based upon what you've played in other games.


Wint, that's impossible. We, human beings, can never experience anything without the context of everything that came before. You cannot un-experience previous games or MMOs and remove them from the way you interpret a new MMO. It would be awesome if that were possible, since that would allow people to have that "first MMO" magical experience again, but it's just not possible.

We can be open to the possibility of new experiences and new ideas, but when evaluating a game such as FFXIV which mainly consists of things we've already experienced in one way or another, it's impossible not to have some preferences or opinions.


I know, wish in one hand and crap in the other, we know which hand will be full first Smiley: laugh

It's a nice dream. I'm not saying don't have an opinion on how things could be changed, but I just think demanding things should change because it was this way in X game without giving it an honest shot in ARR is a little premature.
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#43 Aug 06 2013 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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I believe it was mentioned already but the average age of gamers is 30+. To add to that there are more adult women gamers (31%) than male gamers 17 or younger (19%). (taken from the website DoYouKnowGaming.com)

This would lead one to assume that as a business SE would be targeting this age group. I also fit into this age group and have limited time to play, however like many others here i have great memories and appreciation for FFXI. This game allows me to pour my feelings for FFXI into it and still have the feeling of accomplishment, increasing my appreciation at the same time.

For me (what I will call the Rule) this game is exactly what I am looking for, however for others, perhaps younger gamers or gamers with more time (the exception to the Rule), this game may only be satisfactory.

SE used up all of their risk taking with the first launch, they cannot afford to take any risk now so they are going to do what will be most appealing to the majority (or Rule) gamers.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 11:20am by elrocco
#44 Aug 06 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
HeroMystic wrote:
The intent behind my post was to show that just because things took forever, that doesn't mean there's a sense of accomplishment to it is bigger than everyone else's. I said what I said because I was admittedly annoyed by the same tired argument from seemingly the same group of players. That said, I still stand by my words. It's been a view I've had for a very long time.

I'm not defending the game towards you, persay, because I respect your opinion as well. But there are a lot of problems with FFXI that I feel players have looked past simply because they got used to it and saw it as the norm, and wanting FFXIV to be like FFXI makes me feel like they're not willing to break out of their bubble. I've had massive fun with other MMOs, and even if it didn't take forever, I can say the game is fun the whole way through. I can legitimately tell my friends to play this game because you won't have to "work around" the problems that FFXI had.

No one is wrong for having that sense of accomplishment in XI. I didn't, and if people asked me how I felt about FFXI, I will stand by what I said and I will not sugarcoat any of it by saying "It's just my opinion". I see that as a suppressant of my experiences and I don't feel anyone has to hide behind that phrase just because it's an unpopular opinion.


This argument is starting to get very circular, so I'm just going to close with saying that having an opinion on something is absolutely valid and appreciated. Stating something as if it's a fact however, will always cause controversy. Whether or not you meant to, your post came off very one-sided, completely discounting those who did gain a sense of accomplishment from goals in FFXI. I also don't think adding that it's your opinion is sugar-coating anything, I think it is just letting people know that you are speaking from your own point of view, instead of in absolutes, which is what your OP came off as.

I think we're in agreement on the direction of XIV, and we both want it to be pretty different from XI.


I do agree with XIV's direction.

The argument is "circular" because there's no argument at all. We simply have different viewpoints on the same game and you felt I was attacking your time spent on FFXI. You felt a sense of accomplishment when you completed something, I felt I checked something off a list, and went on the next thing. No words spoken between you, me, or anyone else will change that.

Yes, my post was one-sided, because it was meant to be, as it is my experience which happens to be unpopular on this forum. If I wanted to encompass everyone else's opinion of the game then my post wouldn't matter because it's not what I felt. If I wanted to imply that everyone here is wrong for having their opinion of FFXI, I would say everyone here is close-minded, but I didn't because I know better.

If everyone realized that words cannot make an absolute truth, the world would be much better off.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 10:28am by HeroMystic
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#45 Aug 06 2013 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seems like we are getting an influx of 'new' members who post certain topics knowing its gonna cause a slew of mud slinging. Where is that op now? Just like the others, slithered away.
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#46 Aug 06 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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#47 Aug 06 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Oh look, another "WoW is easy/FFXI is hardcore" thread. Take your narrow mind elsewhere please. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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#48 Aug 06 2013 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
1) Making the game accessible to casual or new players is crucial in the modern MMO era for long term success.
Interesting theory, but it's probably a good idea to point out how there hasn't been a new successful MMO for closing in on a decade.
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#49 Aug 06 2013 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Im happy they made crafting more accessable and able to do early on.
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#50 Aug 06 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Default
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Transmigration wrote:
Oh look, another "WoW is easy/FFXI is hardcore" thread. Take your narrow mind elsewhere please. You have no idea what you're talking about.



You're not qualified to have an opinion about what others know or don't know. You have an opinion, which is about as special as having a backside, and that's where you can shove your illusory sense of superiority.
#51 Aug 06 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
1) Making the game accessible to casual or new players is crucial in the modern MMO era for long term success.
Interesting theory, but it's probably a good idea to point out how there hasn't been a new successful MMO for closing in on a decade.


That's only true if you define "success" as being World of Warcraft. And if that is your standard then the only successful mmo is the one which is very casual friendly.

MMOs are no longer novel to the point that you can expect the customer to compensate for the flaws in a game. An MMO doesn't need to be easy, but it has to be accessible.
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