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#52 Aug 06 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Default
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KarlHungis wrote:
That's only true if you define "success" as being World of Warcraft.
It's also true if one's definition of success was "still exists beyond a small, niche audience."
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#53 Aug 06 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Chialing wrote:
When my Byakko pants dropped after a 3 month wait in line, I was ecstatic! It really did feel like an accomplishment because of all the time and work I put into it with those fellow linkshell companions.

I get your happiness, but let's consider a perhaps too frequent scenario relative to this specific mob and its loot.

There was a time when Ullikumi had an 8+ hour respawn, making it an absolute drag for people who wanted Byakko's Haidate. As such, seeing 3 month waiting lists wasn't exactly uncommon between competition both on the outside and within your own ranks. Either way, you seemingly played nice in your LS's array of guild politics and eventually got what you wanted. That's cool.

Not all environments are equal, though, and game mechanics removing player politics as often is possible is something I really like to see when it comes time to distribute loot. But consider the existence of various other start-up LS with promises of lots of Sky loot, getting yourself pimped out, good times had by all, and all that blah. Realize a lot of these were just scams to get the leaders and his buddies their loot and then to GTFO. This left the stragglers either struggling to reform or just jumping to the next shell hoping things would be better with no guarantee that it actually would be. Some might argue this is less of a risk for groups that have been established longer, but I know my own experience suggests that you're still going to have cliques and favoritism going around.

So, in trying to peek into your head a bit, I wonder if maybe you understood all of this back then and were more glad this was no longer a risk for you than presumably having to fight Byakko another dozen+ times just to please those in the line still. During this process, I'd also be curious to know how many people suddenly seemed "busy" or even outright quit the game after accomplishing a goal of similar time requirement. I'd theorize this rush of happiness carries with it a risk of disappointment after if there is no new goal of similar proportions to take its place. So, aside from all the potential drama of "hard to get" ****, I try to consider that there are limits. And for some, the limit may translate to not even trying, which is a shame since it means wasted content.

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I still have fond memories of those folks and all the places we went and the things we did together.

Which then begs the question, is the prize the loot or the social interaction? Can one exist without the other? The trinity of difficulty, social requirements, and loot quality can certainly evoke a muddy situation. I'm too cynical to believe people play solely for the social aspect and I've certainly been burned enough by the "ding and ditch" crowd who suddenly want nothing to do with me and leave me hanging the moment they get what they want out of me or others in longer term investments. As such, it's become my habit to look at things from a worst case scenario in order to prevent it from happening again to myself or others. This can and does mean the downplaying or outright death of certain types of content design. And it isn't so much a ********** YOUR FUN!" as it is the contemplation that better accessing the majority opens up better potential for the game. So, how many of those folks do you still talk to? Do you think they even remember you and more specific details? Friends will come and go for various reasons, but at the same time, I realize friendship isn't even on the radar of some.
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#54 Aug 06 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
That's only true if you define "success" as being World of Warcraft.
It's also true if one's definition of success was "still exists beyond a small, niche audience."


So Aion, for example, with 2 million subs, doesn't still exist, or is that considered niche?

Does GW2 not count as an MMO? Or again, is that niche? What definition makes something niche?

The main change in the past 10 years is that we have so many F2P games that instead of seeing a game with 200k subscribers and saying "success" we see a game with a million F2P accounts, and have no idea at all how financially successful it is or how often those million accounts are actually playing.
#55 Aug 06 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I played the beta in p3 briefly. In the time experience it seemed like it went a little fast at times, however considering you weren't just one class/job for the entire time to max level. It seemed appropriate. It wasn't super easy either. I felt many times while I was soloing around that I was tough and couldn't be beat. Then throw in an extra mob or two or have them be higher level and it was a different story. I like the idea of the game being difficult, but not a time sink. You can do it, you just have to think carefully and change something around to make it work. Getting groups was fun and so were fates that were scattered across the land. I really enjoyed this game and believe that it wont be just a time sink thats easy. Being productive is important in a video game and sitting around for 10+ hours to stay in an area for a group isn't a good idea.
#56 Aug 06 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not so sure a sense of accomplishment should come from the result of a RNG and no one else ninja-lotting on a piece.
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#57 Aug 06 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
1) Making the game accessible to casual or new players is crucial in the modern MMO era for long term success.
Interesting theory, but it's probably a good idea to point out how there hasn't been a new successful MMO for closing in on a decade.


Well Eve online can be called successful and it did close 10 years (or it will in a few months not sure) But then again it is not a casual game. But as another one pointed you need to define what you mean successful.
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#58 Aug 06 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I really wish people would take the game for what it's offering and try it without preconceptions about what they've already experienced in other games. Yes it borrows from other games, but perhaps the entire game as a whole will work once you filter out your expectations based upon what you've played in other games.


I'd rate you up, but well... you know.
Anywho... +1
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#59 Aug 06 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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To make money. Believe it or not, everyone on the the planet is not as familiar with MMO gameplay as others. I think SE doesn't want to scare potential money away.
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#60 Aug 06 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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It's funny but I seem to remember that back at all the different level caps we went through in XI we all pretty much ended up looking the same. Wasn't a huge amount of variety really. You hit cap found out what was best and got it. As for the HNM's. Did it for a bit myself. Fighting them was sorta fun the first few times was fun. Then after that it wore on you. **** I knew people who did it for 2 years and didnt get anything due to the RNG gods or having it go to the so called "favorite" in the shell.

Dungeons aren't a bad thing. Gives you something else to do besides killing pink birds for hours on end or sitting in abyssea for 30-75. I'm sure I'll miss some of the things from XI when I start XIV. But I did those things for like 6 or 7 years. Nostalgia is great but I wont let it spoil a new game for me. Though SE needs to bring back PuP. Seriously. PuP Nao prz.
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#61 Aug 06 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
That's only true if you define "success" as being World of Warcraft.
It's also true if one's definition of success was "still exists beyond a small, niche audience."


So Aion, for example, with 2 million subs, doesn't still exist, or is that considered niche?

Does GW2 not count as an MMO? Or again, is that niche? What definition makes something niche?

The main change in the past 10 years is that we have so many F2P games that instead of seeing a game with 200k subscribers and saying "success" we see a game with a million F2P accounts, and have no idea at all how financially successful it is or how often those million accounts are actually playing.

lolgaxe's statement is correct.

They are stating that an mmo still surviving is a success but that doesn't mean they are reaching the type of success they wish to have.
I imagine when Square first thought about making a new mmo in the same universe. They weren't thinking....

"Hey we want all the FFXI players to move to the new game."

Or they would have made FFXI-2 literally.

or

"Hey, let's not try to surpass the success of FFXI."

Or they would have followed through in the direction of 1.0 for better or worse.

It's very easy to measure levels of success in FTP just as it is in P2P.
If the game is still alive. It is successful enough.
You know how much profit an FTP game is making by the amount of introduction of content. If there is a ton almost on par with people's supposed precious view on something only P2P can provide. You better believe that F2P game is raking in the benjamins.


FTP is only truly free regardless of the implementation when a player can play the game till mandatory charges start and put it down then and there. If they want to make it a permanent home, it's going to cost money eventually.

P2P do it like nursing homes and charge you up front, you know what you're supposed to get.
F2P do it like casinos. They let you win early, but in the end, they win.

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 2:47pm by sandpark

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 2:51pm by sandpark
#62 Aug 06 2013 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I always wondered why people equated waiting in line to accomplishment, that's what MMO farming is: you go in, kill a bunch of stuff, "your" stuff doesn't drop, do it again, and again, and again. It's not an accomplishment that you completed a circular event until it finally paid off, that's patience. Perhaps having patience is an accomplishment for some, but in reality there's nothing that says "woo! I did that! Mission Accomplished!" in waiting for a drop. Perhaps people confuse accomplishment with relief?

Conquering content, now there's an accomplishment: there's a task, with a scope of difficulty, probably some failures to start, then sweet success. You can have that in a game that doesn't require you to collect 7 different currencies, combine those into one currency, to then collect until you have 12 of them to make the Pants of "You Really Wasted All That Time?" I'd like to see more of that in XIV, so far there's been some things that I was able to feel good about: figuring out some of the class/story quests that required a little thought and planning, success in dungeons scraping by after a player DC'd from the Duty Finder, etc. Those things didn't take me months, but it didn't make the experience any cheaper.

The earlier poster who commented that the feeling of "accomplishment" from "completing tasks" over an exceedingly long processes as "prestige gaming" is spot on. It feels so good to be "better", doesn't it?

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 1:56pm by Krycis
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#63 Aug 06 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
That's only true if you define "success" as being World of Warcraft.
It's also true if one's definition of success was "still exists beyond a small, niche audience."


There have been a few "supernovae" MMOs however. Rift did pretty well for awhile as did SWTOR.

Rift did okay because it was a chip off the old WoW, but ultimately it lacked the staying power that a well established lore could have offered (not enough casual players to keep the game funded long term). SWTOR had the lore in spades, but that lore isn't rooted in a video game franchise, so it lacked an established and devoted player base (not enough hardcore players to see the game through the dry spells).

I think WoW, FFXIV, and TESO all have the ingredients that a casual, subscriber based MMO needs to be a long term success. They're all based on a successful video game series, but they're all approachable enough that the erstwhile fan and time strapped fanatic can also participate.

FFXIV's danger is that it already took a pounding from its "full of fall launch" 3 years ago, and a decade is a long time to wait to follow WoW's act and hope it all works out. But considering the alternatives, I think this is the best chance they've got.
#64 Aug 06 2013 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not reading the entire thread, but all I have to say is no thanks to FFXI-2.
#65 Aug 06 2013 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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[/quote] Final Fantasy has a giant fanbase who could get into a casual MMO with ease, including former FFXI players who just don't have the time like they used to. There's a huge market for what FFXIV is offering, but FFXI hasn't shut down, either, so choose your preferred style. It's not like you don't have options.

Finally, you may like horses and buggies a great deal. But that really doesn't make you look less undignified when you shake your cane at every passing car that those young whippersnappers insist on driving these days. The genre has changed before and it will change again. The old days are nice to reminisce over, but you can't turn back the clock. [/quote]



Unfortunately i gotta agree wit ya. altho i would love to c the old school ffxi come back, u gotta move wit the times.. i played ffxi for 4ish yrs when it first got released for ps2 and what it is now is just tryin to plz everyone instead of the "no lifers" myself included lol. to bad they couldnt keep ffxi like it was and bring ffxiv out sooner but from what i have seen and read it looks promising and cant wait to try it out on the 27th lol
#66 Aug 06 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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I believe the reason why WoW is so successful is that caters to both the extremely casual and the hardcore.

FFXI was for the extremely hardcore.

It looks like FFXIV is for casual based on pre 30 gameplay. but as we haven't seen much post 30 gameplay, we can't really determine what level of gameplay is required to compete.

as for specific qualities that you want in this game, you have to remember that this isn't FFXI, this isn't RIft, this isn't WoW, this isn't Aion, This isn't SWTOR.

This is FFXIV, and as an MMO it has room to grow. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is great, they have proven that they listen to the people and make changes accordingly. But don't expect a rehash of a game already out. Try to enjoy and supply your input on the game in production.

I for one really enjoy certain aspects about this game, crafting and gathering for one.

I don't like the current combat system, I believe the GCD is too slow. I believe the lag affects gameplay too much. And I think the classes are too generic.
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#67 Aug 06 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
The moment when my byakko's haidate finally dropped, or my Ace's Helm, or beating CoP, or any number of other accomplishments in game definitely made me feel great. I've never got that same feeling out of another game. Looking back, I realize that it's mostly because of the insane time commitment it required, but it was still an amazing feeling when I finally did "check that next item off my to-do list".


I agree BartelX. I think the OP is one of those people who uses every MMO like a gateway drug, always looking for that next fix. Some of these folks can't even wait until the game's released before they are tired of it. I played PSO-X (Phantasy Star Online on XBOX) for nearly 3 years. It wasn't an MMO, but it was my first non Rainbow Six online multiplayer experience. And I stayed loyal to the end. I bought PSU (Phantasy Star Universe) and stuck with it until level 180 when everyone else said the game sucked. Now, in between those two I played FFXI for five years. I was on and off, I hated the party system and waiting on people, but I loved the nostalgia. I rode the ferry and fished for hours, hunted on the stupid sand for Carbuncle's Ruby, got ****** off at my best friend who broke the rules and played while I was at work and leveled his elf to astronomical proportions, and hunted every monster that would give my blue mage a spell, using blu/thf because I liked to SATA my mandibular bite and I wanted to /flee. I didn't give a crap what niche I fit into. I played the original FF, FFII (FFIVJ), FFIII (FFIVJ, I loved FFV (translated on my PC emulator), then I played FFVII, FFVIII (one of my favorites), FFIX, FFX, FFXII, and FFXIII. I even played and loved FF tactics and that stupid 3DS musical FF game. I love the universe and am loyal to the universe, so much so that I will stick around just to see that bg crystal on the title screen and hear the music.

Why complain about the lack of content in the initial release? Do you really think that on their second go they would mess this one up? To even attempt to re-release a game of this magnitude takes fortitude and you better bet that they are going to make us happy. Do you really think that we aren't going to have expansions in a pay to play model, and what we have at release is all that we will get? The game has a dedicated developer base who cares about ALL of its fans, from what I have seen. Let me give you an example of how a different developer, Sega, completely failed. When PSU (Phantasy Star Universe) first released everyone quit because it had two missions on each of three worlds and that was all. Nothing else. No cool drops, maybe a crappy A rank sword. You beat the dragon and you were done. For a year. Then after everyone had quit, the content started to open up, very slowly, BUT only after Japan had it for at least a year. I stayed around. I use my MMOs to keep me from buying M:TG and Baseball cards and hundreds of other video games so it saves be a boatload of money. So when I start on one, I stick to it. Be happy that Square Enix is not like Sega, who don't even care enough about their North American customers to even release their new game (PSO2) in the US. I lost my last bit of faith in Sega after the constantly indefinite delays and empty promises. Here, with ARR, everyone in the world gets to see the game at (very nearly) the same time, even us lowly minority who still *gasp* play MMOs on consoles. I don't care what anyone says, I'm sticking this one out.
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#68 Aug 06 2013 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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It wouldn't surprise me if the OP is a shill of some kind. Kind of like these ones, only in this case, he/she/it has a copypasta'd post to use instead of having to make it up. It's also probably not SE, unless they're totally insane and want to shoot themselves in the foot with something this stupid.
#69 Aug 06 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow has millions for a reason....not that wow doesnt have faults ..every game does.

FFxi never had anywhere near that amount and to this day has a minimal stagnant population ...there is a reason for that as well. it simply can not flourish or expand, the old school design will kill any chance of that every single solitary time (the team just cant see that for some reason)

If they stuck to FF11 thinking then FFXIV would fail, period.
That is not what makes a modern mmo. I am thrilled they seem to be having a much more relaxed atmosphere and train of thought realizing ppl SOLO, duo..raid and most players have a lifestyle that forbids them from being online 24/7 (thankfully lol)

Its high time a ff enters this century and I am thrilled FFXIV is heading that way.

I have subbed to 11 from the start with one long break, i know what it is allll about., had some great memories there!!! but mannnnn they cant seem to pull that 2x4 out of their...and learn to relax. Fun> grinds and alliance only can ever win theories.

Please hear me when I say HORRAY if FFXIV is gonna not be so frumped up as 11. Lets have a fun game, one that has potential to grow in numbers!!! one that rewards more then ONCE every year, IF you are lucky!! lol good lord bring xiv on please

Remember they invested so much money into this game already they best pray it not only does "ok" but outstanding subscription wise....to achieve that then they be wise to appeal to as many playstyles as possible...Smiley: smileSmiley: smile
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#70 Aug 06 2013 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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I love P4Gamimg.. they're consistently funny. Some of their satire just hits too close to home sometimes.
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#71 Aug 06 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Allestra wrote:
Wow has millions for a reason....not that wow doesnt have faults ..every game does.

FFxi never had anywhere near that amount and to this day has a minimal stagnant population ...there is a reason for that as well. it simply can not flourish or expand, the old school design will kill any chance of that every single solitary time (the team just cant see that for some reason)


WoW changed early and often. If you talk to people who play it, they'll always have an opinion as to which expansion was their favorite or something along those lines, but Blizzard changed and updated the game so often that the playerbase got used to it.

FFXI couldn't do the same because so much of the population got used to and grew to love the fact that the game was stagnant. When they uncapped levels (though they had always said they never would) there was a large part of their population who was immediately turned off. They slaved for days, weeks and in some cases years for gear they thought would stand the test of time and it didn't.
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#72 Aug 06 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
I love P4Gamimg.. they're consistently funny. Some of their satire just hits too close to home sometimes.


The one about Sony intentionally bricking 500gig hard drive PS3s with firmware updates was scaaaaaary...Smiley: frown
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#73KingAlkaiser, Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 3:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ill chime in on this by saying the following:
#74 Aug 07 2013 at 5:27 AM Rating: Default
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KingAlkaiser wrote:
ill chime in on this by saying the following:

1) if people say that FF14 needs to be casual friendly/ wow cloning to be successful they are dead wrong, people are already getting sick and tired of the same old extremely over casualised games in general. Id even be willing to say if this game is too casual it will definably fail as people don't have attention span like they used to and after maxing out everything they will quickly get bored and move on to the "next WoW clone".

The game needs difficulty and it also needs your so call "time consummation" as a game that can be beaten and face rolled within 1-3 months won't have high retention rate.

if people want another WoW clone i can list a good 1-20 of them now, if this is yet another over cualised mmorpg and same old junk as developers keep rehashing it will quickly die out.

2) just because people don't have time like they used to does not mean younger generation/others don't this conceded narrow minded thinking is what has been ruining mmorpg for so long as everyone is all about me me me me......and even dare rage when they can not get what others who work get. aka the casual vs hardcore argument where casuals expect everything handed to them ( lets say for example relic weapons were a huge achievement before in ff11, sure not everyone got it but it didn't damper anyone elses gameplay, but nowadays if casuals don't get it handed to them they rage and whine about it.


P.S- if i wanted to play ff11 id wish i could but they also went and ruined that also with abyssea expansion ( this is nothing new to the forums anyways )

people for some odd reason want the game to be a single player rpg or another rehash of wow, id play this game for many more years if they capture anything close to what FF11 used to be and I am with the OP on this. If this game turns out to be another 1.0 were people 1-cap bum rush in 1-3 days with little in between id be surely disappointing.


Edited, Aug 7th 2013 5:26am by KingAlkaiser

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 5:28am by KingAlkaiser


This guy gets it. Agreed on both points.

1) I'm so, so tired of MMORPGs being like WoW. If I want to play WoW, I'll just go play WoW. I think most people are with me on this. I think being too similar is actually more of a death sentence for new games. It's not some success formula.

2) Also this. I usually see the argument on here that they like ARR being casual and solo/instance teleporty-friendly because they have a life now, unlike when they played FF11!

Well... there's now a younger generation who filled your spot and maybe they have a ton of time to burn like you used to. There absolutely has to be stuff for those people IMO.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 7:28am by Killua125
#75 Aug 07 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Good
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So... people have short attention spans, check. Let's give them stuff that exceeds that under the assumption they'll magically take? Questionable logic there. Nevermind the typical hardcore condescension oozing from the text.

Yes, the gamers of 10 years ago are older, as well as a new crop now being in the 13-23 range. If anything, we shouldn't be encouraging these kids to be holing themselves up in their rooms doing nothing but playing a video game after school, or even skipping school to do it. People loved to mock the whole, "Don't forget your friends, family, and work..." splash screen of XI because the game's design pretty much contradicted that to the letter. So, while I'd rather not dive too deep into the, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" rhetoric, encouraging physical interaction with their peers via less gotta-be-logged-in-24/7-or-we-fail-at-life will do a lot more for social development than just rambling with people you'll never meet and likely never even hear over the web.

So, yeah, you can claim we're ******** them out of content with that whole, "ME ME ME!" rhetoric (irony much?), when the truth is anyone arguing about the casual game objectively is simply trying to inject some sanity into the equation. Time sinks are not true difficulty no matter how much a dev clings to them to string out content life. And for all the blanket assumption of, "Casuals suck, we don't want dumbed down content!" there's a part of me that wonders how many are actually inclined to teach instead of just skipping to the flipping of tables while they themselves just follow some script someone else came up with. Because it's very much the adult thing to do to assist the younger generations and, bluntly, anyone who refuses to teach has no right to ***** about the quality of their peers. The root of community is sharing and the pooling of resources, not excluding and segregating. As well, suddenly being 30+ doesn't turn you game stupid, especially if you've been gaming as early as the Atari or Colecovision. So let's not imply those who have aged have lost touch with the scene, either. Because you seriously wouldn't have a "scene" if it weren't for them supporting the industry those 10+ years ago. And nothing breeds customer retention of an entire demographic like a good ol', ********** YOU!" right?

If you want to better challenge yourself, there are ways. If you want to feel more special than someone else you think doesn't deserve something even though they obviously did the content related to it? Get over yourself. The game isn't going to devolve into free epics in your mailbox no matter how much that slippery slope scare tactic is employed. Everyone has different degrees of skill and different amounts of potential play time. These aren't mutually exclusive traits, either. If you play more, just level more jobs and gear them up. Run out of things to do? Take a break until the next patch. It's not a crime. You're not any less dedicated to the game.
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#76 Aug 07 2013 at 6:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Looking back over my gaming career, and the people that I have met, I find it pretty ironic that many of the hardcore gamers took a casual approach to real life. Smiley: dubious
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#77 Aug 07 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Two of my best friends from FFXI pretty much ruined their high school and college social lives because of FFXI. To this day, one of them refuses to ever play another MMORPG because of the setback FFXI put him in. He didn't understand how to communicate in the real world and he basically missed out on the entire college experience because he was too shy to even initiate conversations with people.

I'm not saying this to try and justify making games easier, I'm saying this to give examples of what an overly hardcore game can do to people. Trust me, I'm all for hardcore content that is extremely challenging, and I honestly wouldn't even mind if there were things in the games similar to the relic weapons of FFXI that took an incredible amount of time to get, as long as it could be done in small doses. What I'm not interested in are the 24-72 hour HNMs where you have to be basically glued to your screen for 3-4 hours every day in hopes of getting claim, or 12-24 hours sitting during a spawn window so that your LS can get there first (hi2u Tiamat). Or the 8 hour sky runs to try and get full popsets for ONE chance to spawn a God. I missed so many social events myself because I was "too busy" waiting for a mob to spawn, or having my life scheduled around our linkshells events.

If there are people who still want that, so be it. They can form their own free companies and go grind away on whatever hard content is available. I just know there are also a lot of people who don't want that anymore. I'm truly hopeful the game caters to both types of players. I'm not trying to be conceded and say that my playstyle is the only one that matters. I want something to make everyone happy, and I honestly believe that Yoshi is the type of producer that will accomplish this. The argument goes both ways, let's just wait and see what actually happens in game before getting out our pitchforks.
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#78 Aug 07 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
Seriha,
I actually agree with you. I can't make a long post about it because it's murder trying to type anything of length on this phone, but if you look at the bottom of the post I made you will see that I don't need the type of game ffxi was (even though I enjoyed it for the most part).

Did I get a sense of accomplishment from doing endgame stuff with my linkshell? Yes. But it's in the past now and I wouldn't want to deal with it again in a modern MMO, nor would it make the MMO as much money in the current gaming climate.
I'm fine with the new direction, but that doesn't mean I felt my time was completely wasted in FFXI.
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#79 Aug 07 2013 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:

2) Also this. I usually see the argument on here that they like ARR being casual and solo/instance teleporty-friendly because they have a life now, unlike when they played FF11!


I think most of the 30 somethings on the board are tired of the time sink. Example: Shout: Party <I need it>. *Wait 30 minutes* "Party? Meet us in XXXX." 5 minutes to grab gear and hop on chocobo or 15 mintes to wait on airship, then 5 minutes to get on chocobo. 30 minutes to ride out. 20 minutes to help the guy that got lost. 30 minutes to wait on the healer to make ****. Then finally, almost two hours after you actually wanted to level do you actually get to level. At minimum. Why? Waiting on other people Smiley: glare

Killua125 wrote:

Well... there's now a younger generation who filled your spot and maybe they have a ton of time to burn like you used to. There absolutely has to be stuff for those people IMO.


Younger generation I assume you mean the 17-25 group. You want a really social MMO that focuses on society play EVE Online. Or you could play FFXI and pretend that Abyssea doesn't exist. Or for God sakes get out from behind your computer and go down to the card shop on a Friday and play in a Magic the Gathering tournament. Or *gasp* the younger generation could join a party of four to eight friends in FFXIV:ARR and play FATEs, or dungeons, or go take on an incredibly tough mob and have fun. Who cares about exp gain / second, the younger generation has a lot of time to kill right? Smiley: dubious


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#80 Aug 07 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure I agree with the whole "WoW clone" idea that's being passed around this thread. Now, before you race to click that red arrow up there hear me out for a moment.

When I think of WoW and it's influence on modern MMOs, I don't see a world full of WoW clones. There are a number of things WoW did very well over its competition. WoW had two major things that led to its success: it came out at a time when the market wasnt flooded with competition, and it had some very intuitive gameplay elements. Now regardless of the origin of those gameplay elements, they were still good and made the game very easy to get into. The game had a lot of smart design decisions implemented. Naturally players would flock to the game. I'm looking at the game from a design perspective.

I see no problem with a game that draws inspiration from those design elements. They're used across the industry because they work. Period. There's no point in re-inventing the wheel when you don't have to. SE tried something unique with 1.0 and got raked over the coals for it. FFXIV 1.0 had the opposite of WoW, bad design decisions all around. They thought they could invent their own wheel and lost. This is why so many games use similar mechanics, when studios see something that works they can draw inspiration from it.

Innovation comes from taking somethimg that works and improving upon it. From what I've played of FFXIV it does just that. I feel like it takes gameplay design elements from other games and makes its own little improvement on them, giving the game an identity of its own. Every game does this in their own way. It's just that from my perspective so many people are getting hung up on the words "WoW clone" that they're blinding themselves to the good gameplay elements and designs at work in the game.
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#81 Aug 07 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Two of my best friends from FFXI pretty much ruined their high school and college social lives because of FFXI. To this day, one of them refuses to ever play another MMORPG because of the setback FFXI put him in. He didn't understand how to communicate in the real world and he basically missed out on the entire college experience because he was too shy to even initiate conversations with people.

I'm not saying this to try and justify making games easier, I'm saying this to give examples of what an overly hardcore game can do to people.



Can't pay for FFXIV if you lost your job from playing FFXIV. I think Yoshi understands.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 8:59am by Valkayree
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#82 Aug 07 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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if people want another WoW clone i can list a good 1-20 of them now, if this is yet another over cualised mmorpg and same old junk as developers keep rehashing it will quickly die out.


And this is where the argument breaks down for me..

I don't understand where people get this idea that WoW is the poster child for easy, casual MMOs. Heroic raids and challenge modes (y'know.. the hard content) are actually quite hard.

Yes, there are easier versions of these things for players who don't want that level of difficulty, but if that's your problem then you aren't talking about being hardcore, you're talking about being exclusionary. Games have had difficulty settings forever, get over it.

There's no way to know if FFXIV's hard content is hard enough because none of it has been available for beta testing.
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#83 Aug 07 2013 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Ravashack wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if the OP is a shill of some kind. Kind of like these ones, only in this case, he/she/it has a copypasta'd post to use instead of having to make it up. It's also probably not SE, unless they're totally insane and want to shoot themselves in the foot with something this stupid.


Pretty obvious that it was. One post, used to start this mess. So it basically threw a steak into a pack of starving dogs and here we are.
#84 Aug 07 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
Here's a fun fact: When I started playing FFXI I was 38 years old. I had a full time job as I do now (thank god...was unemployed for half a year a while back and I'm appreciative of the fact that I'm employed in this economy), so I didn't get to waste my days and nights playing as much as the younger players might have.
I'm 48 now but I'm glad things have evolved past the concept of days spent trying to gain a level while grinding caterpillars in Crawler's Nest and waiting the whole evening for a party that never formed.

I did all that, but it was a pain to advance your character when you only had about 4 hours or less on a weeknight to attempt it. I have fond memories to go with the bad ones (took me a few years to complete COP due to forced party disbands due to JP midnight requirements...by the time I tried to continue the rest of the party wasn't around or were already past that point).

There can be challenges in this new MMORPG climate, they just don't have to equate to the old methods of grinding and waiting around to advance due to timesinks.
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#85 Aug 07 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125
#86 Aug 07 2013 at 9:23 AM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


And this is where the argument breaks down for me..

I don't understand where people get this idea that WoW is the poster child for easy, casual MMOs. Heroic raids and challenge modes (y'know.. the hard content) are actually quite hard.

Yes, there are easier versions of these things for players who don't want that level of difficulty, but if that's your problem then you aren't talking about being hardcore, you're talking about being exclusionary. Games have had difficulty settings forever, get over it.

There's no way to know if FFXIV's hard content is hard enough because none of it has been available for beta testing.


So in your mind, casual directly correlates to easy? Because I didn't get that at all from reading his post.
#87 Aug 07 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Chialing wrote:
Here's a fun fact: When I started playing FFXI I was 38 years old. I had a full time job as I do now (thank god...was unemployed for half a year a while back and I'm appreciative of the fact that I'm employed in this economy), so I didn't get to waste my days and nights playing as much as the younger players might have.
I'm 48 now but I'm glad things have evolved past the concept of days spent trying to gain a level while grinding caterpillars in Crawler's Nest and waiting the whole evening for a party that never formed.

I did all that, but it was a pain to advance your character when you only had about 4 hours or less on a weeknight to attempt it. I have fond memories to go with the bad ones (took me a few years to complete COP due to forced party disbands due to JP midnight requirements...by the time I tried to continue the rest of the party wasn't around or were already past that point).

There can be challenges in this new MMORPG climate, they just don't have to equate to the old methods of grinding and waiting around to advance due to timesinks.


I think we have walked in the same shoes, good sir.
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#88 Aug 07 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Killua125 wrote:
I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125


You would rather spend an hour walking to an instance, only to die and wipe due to someone else being unprepared, then rinse and repeat for a total of two to four wasted hours? There is a middle ground between holding someone's hand and throwing them off of a cliff.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:31am by Valkayree
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#89 Aug 07 2013 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:


And this is where the argument breaks down for me..

I don't understand where people get this idea that WoW is the poster child for easy, casual MMOs. Heroic raids and challenge modes (y'know.. the hard content) are actually quite hard.

Yes, there are easier versions of these things for players who don't want that level of difficulty, but if that's your problem then you aren't talking about being hardcore, you're talking about being exclusionary. Games have had difficulty settings forever, get over it.

There's no way to know if FFXIV's hard content is hard enough because none of it has been available for beta testing.


So in your mind, casual directly correlates to easy? Because I didn't get that at all from reading his post.


Then you didn't try very hard

Quote:
The game needs difficulty and it also needs your so call "time consummation" as a game that can be beaten and face rolled within 1-3 months won't have high retention rate.


Without knowing exactly what "time consummation" is... sounds like a rule 34 issue.. virtually every argument that involves the word "casual" as relates to MMOs directly translates to "easy."
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#90 Aug 07 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm all for a game being hard, after all I'm a huge fan of the Dark Souls franchise, but I can't stand time sinks because I don't have the time I once had. The problem seems (to me) to be that most pople seem to equate huge time sinks to difficulty when that isn't the case. I found FFXI to be quite easy during the 5 years I played it but everything that you did just took forever. When I had the time, that wasn't an issue but not that I'm older and don't due to my job and family, time sinks like FFXI hold very little appeal. Dark Souls, is a game that while difficult, allows for quick progression through content and levels as long as you continue to improve your own skills as a player. It shouldn't be difficult for a MMO to allow progression quickly for the people who are restricted on time like me while maintaining a higher difficulty level for the hardcore players as well.
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#91 Aug 07 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125


You would rather spend an hour walking to an instance, only to die and wipe due to someone else being unprepared, then rinse and repeat for a total of two to four wasted hours? Are you a sado *********? There is a middle ground between holding someone's hand and throwing them off of a cliff.

This want sounds so absurd, I don't even know what to say.

It's like saying I enjoy jogging to meet competitors at the basketball court and asking authorities to strip away all forms of cars, trains, or whatever. It's a choice to jog. I can find friends who enjoy jogging as well and jog together. It would be selfish, rude, and ridiculous of me to make everyone else jog, if that was even possible.
#92 Aug 07 2013 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't be a ********* because I would make sure that my group was prepared and I wasn't wasting my time. We're just different kinds of gamers.

(Edit: Well, I would do my best to prepare. I know you can't always be 100% and things can go wrong. But yes I do like that element of danger there.)

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 12:26pm by Killua125
#93 Aug 07 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125


You would rather spend an hour walking to an instance, only to die and wipe due to someone else being unprepared, then rinse and repeat for a total of two to four wasted hours? Are you a sado *********? There is a middle ground between holding someone's hand and throwing them off of a cliff.

This want sounds so absurd, I don't even know what to say.

It's like saying I enjoy jogging to meet competitors at the basketball court and asking authorities to strip away all forms of cars, trains, or whatever. It's a choice to jog. I can find friends who enjoy jogging as well and jog together. It would be selfish, rude, and ridiculous of me to make everyone else jog, if that was even possible.


Jogging just makes my shins hurt.
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#94 Aug 07 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Dungeons have a quest and level requirement. If it's a level 30 dungeon, someone joins, you see they have level 15 gear, you have 2 choices: Ask them to leave or leave yourself. Any other prep is downright up to you to make sure people know their ****, because if you don't do that, you're falling into that category of people I mentioned who get angry about their peers being "unprepared" and being unwilling to help.

That punishment you crave for failure manifests in repair fees and wasted time. Frankly, I hate equipment durability systems as they just translate to "grind more" just as EXP loss did in XI, but I'd at least consider it more tolerable than leveling down. Demanding anything more is just you being an *******.
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#95 Aug 07 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Who remembers in FFXI spending an hour or so scraping together a group to go do a story mission, spending 30 or so minutes travelling to the location, 30 more minutes farming whatever item you would need to get past the gate or use during the boss fight, more time navigating the dungeon to fight the boss only for one or two party members be denied entry because they didnt go talk to some no name npc in one of the towns to progress in the story to be eligible to enter the fight?

Do people really want that again?
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#96 Aug 07 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Killua125 wrote:
I wouldn't be a ********* because I would make sure that my group was prepared and I wasn't wasting my time. We're just different kinds of gamers.

(Edit: Well, I would do my best to prepare. I know you can't always be 100% and things can go wrong. But yes I do like that element of danger there.)

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 12:26pm by Killua125


That makes sense, you are the type of gamer that has a group of tight knit folks who are well prepared. No problem with that. Bonus points for awesome.

By S&M I was referring to the seeming correlation that hardcore gaming = manually running to instances. Teleportation will not make the game less difficult. How many times have you been stuck in 5:00 traffic or faced an hour commute in rl and wished you could teleport? It wouldn't make your life less hard, I mean driving is not that difficult a task, but if you could teleport then you could free up some time to actually tackle more of the hard stuff, and as a bonus you could get more sleep or time in with your family. Nothing wrong with that. SE is facing a crisis where their oldest fan base who was actually alive to play FF on the NES or Famicom when it released are now greying and have grandkids, or at least in their early 30s. They want to play until they get arthritis, but want to see their kids grow up as well. Your kids have to come first, or a whole world of bad can happen...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/02/lester-and-petra-huffmire-imprisoned-children_n_3374998.html
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/03/05/korea.baby.starved/index.html
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#97 Aug 07 2013 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
Dungeons have a quest and level requirement. If it's a level 30 dungeon, someone joins, you see they have level 15 gear, you have 2 choices: Ask them to leave or leave yourself. Any other prep is downright up to you to make sure people know their sh*t, because if you don't do that, you're falling into that category of people I mentioned who get angry about their peers being "unprepared" and being unwilling to help.

That punishment you crave for failure manifests in repair fees and wasted time. Frankly, I hate equipment durability systems as they just translate to "grind more" just as EXP loss did in XI, but I'd at least consider it more tolerable than leveling down. Demanding anything more is just you being an @#%^.



I have always personally disliked armor durability. It seems like your armor always breaks too fast and costs too much to repair.
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#98 Aug 07 2013 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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By its very nature, it makes playing a tank a more expensive endeavor as they're likely the first to go down if **** hits the fan. That alone is enough to make me dislike it, because the tank's death might not be the fault of the tank at all. What does he learn from his healer being an idiot or other party members not reacting to a specific situation properly? But I've also rambled on this more in an old death penalty thread, which seemed to anger your crotchety hardcores if the usual volley of red arrows was any indication.
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#99 Aug 07 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
By its very nature, it makes playing a tank a more expensive endeavor as they're likely the first to go down if sh*t hits the fan. That alone is enough to make me dislike it, because the tank's death might not be the fault of the tank at all. What does he learn from his healer being an idiot or other party members not reacting to a specific situation properly? But I've also rambled on this more in an old death penalty thread, which seemed to anger your crotchety hardcores if the usual volley of red arrows was any indication.


You can always find your own healer, party up, and then enter the dungeons, right?
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#100 Aug 07 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Two of my best friends from FFXI pretty much ruined their high school and college social lives because of FFXI. To this day, one of them refuses to ever play another MMORPG because of the setback FFXI put him in. He didn't understand how to communicate in the real world and he basically missed out on the entire college experience because he was too shy to even initiate conversations with people.

I'm not saying this to try and justify making games easier, I'm saying this to give examples of what an overly hardcore game can do to people. Trust me, I'm all for hardcore content that is extremely challenging, and I honestly wouldn't even mind if there were things in the games similar to the relic weapons of FFXI that took an incredible amount of time to get, as long as it could be done in small doses. What I'm not interested in are the 24-72 hour HNMs where you have to be basically glued to your screen for 3-4 hours every day in hopes of getting claim, or 12-24 hours sitting during a spawn window so that your LS can get there first (hi2u Tiamat). Or the 8 hour sky runs to try and get full popsets for ONE chance to spawn a God. I missed so many social events myself because I was "too busy" waiting for a mob to spawn, or having my life scheduled around our linkshells events.

If there are people who still want that, so be it. They can form their own free companies and go grind away on whatever hard content is available. I just know there are also a lot of people who don't want that anymore. I'm truly hopeful the game caters to both types of players. I'm not trying to be conceded and say that my playstyle is the only one that matters. I want something to make everyone happy, and I honestly believe that Yoshi is the type of producer that will accomplish this. The argument goes both ways, let's just wait and see what actually happens in game before getting out our pitchforks.


I have a friend who will also never play FFXIV or any other MMO again for that matter, because of what FFXI did to him.. he lost his job, and his wife came within a hair of leaving him over it...

FFXI was too much hardcore. HNM camping was just ridiculous... I'll personally not be going the hardcore route ever again...

I'm getting married and my fiance plays with me... so we'll not be doing any HNM for sure. Maybe some raids and other content that can be done in a short amount of time... but no 72 hour camps, or 8 hour sky/sea runs...

Bartel I couldn't have said it better myself.
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#101 Aug 07 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
Seriha wrote:
By its very nature, it makes playing a tank a more expensive endeavor as they're likely the first to go down if sh*t hits the fan. That alone is enough to make me dislike it, because the tank's death might not be the fault of the tank at all. What does he learn from his healer being an idiot or other party members not reacting to a specific situation properly? But I've also rambled on this more in an old death penalty thread, which seemed to anger your crotchety hardcores if the usual volley of red arrows was any indication.


You can always find your own healer, party up, and then enter the dungeons, right?

In a perfect world, yeah. PUGs will always carry a certain element of unpredictability, though.
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