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#102 Aug 07 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
Who remembers in FFXI spending an hour or so scraping together a group to go do a story mission, spending 30 or so minutes travelling to the location, 30 more minutes farming whatever item you would need to get past the gate or use during the boss fight, more time navigating the dungeon to fight the boss only for one or two party members be denied entry because they didnt go talk to some no name npc in one of the towns to progress in the story to be eligible to enter the fight?

Do people really want that again?


I don't want that.
#103 Aug 07 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125


You would rather spend an hour walking to an instance, only to die and wipe due to someone else being unprepared, then rinse and repeat for a total of two to four wasted hours? Are you a sado *********? There is a middle ground between holding someone's hand and throwing them off of a cliff.

This want sounds so absurd, I don't even know what to say.

It's like saying I enjoy jogging to meet competitors at the basketball court and asking authorities to strip away all forms of cars, trains, or whatever. It's a choice to jog. I can find friends who enjoy jogging as well and jog together. It would be selfish, rude, and ridiculous of me to make everyone else jog, if that was even possible.


Jogging just makes my shins hurt.


You need to stretch properly.
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#104 Aug 07 2013 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
You need to stretch properly.


Rule #18: Limber Up.
#105 Aug 07 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, stretching only goes so far if he's getting shin splints, or worse, stress fractures. Need the proper shoes, workout intensity, and ideally a good environment to actually run in. And if that is the case, definitely don't wanna try to run through the pain.
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#106 Aug 07 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
Eh, stretching only goes so far if he's getting shin splints, or worse, stress fractures. Need the proper shoes, workout intensity, and ideally a good environment to actually run in. And if that is the case, definitely don't wanna try to run through the pain.


This, very much this. If the shin splints are minor you can run through them, but anything that is causing severe pain should require several days off to recover. Continuing to run on severe shin splints will just make things worse, and as Seriha said, can lead to stress fractures. Although stretching before and after a workout is incredibly important to loosen muscles and keep from pulling or straining something, it has very minimal impact on shin splints. Not sure how this topic got so offbase, but it's probably for the best.
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#107 Aug 07 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I kinda wish it was a combination.

Like for parties: There's no excuse for party forming to still be as involved as it was in FFXI, but I don't think players need to be handheld that much after the initial formation of the party. I definitely don't like teleporting to instances overall. There's also no punishment for being unprepared.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 11:08am by Killua125


You would rather spend an hour walking to an instance, only to die and wipe due to someone else being unprepared, then rinse and repeat for a total of two to four wasted hours? Are you a sado *********? There is a middle ground between holding someone's hand and throwing them off of a cliff.

This want sounds so absurd, I don't even know what to say.

It's like saying I enjoy jogging to meet competitors at the basketball court and asking authorities to strip away all forms of cars, trains, or whatever. It's a choice to jog. I can find friends who enjoy jogging as well and jog together. It would be selfish, rude, and ridiculous of me to make everyone else jog, if that was even possible.


Jogging just makes my shins hurt.


You need to stretch properly.


You can stretch your shins? What are you, some kind of mutant? And if so, do you have any other super powers? And if so, do you use them for good, or for awesome?
#108 Aug 07 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Eh, stretching only goes so far if he's getting shin splints, or worse, stress fractures. Need the proper shoes, workout intensity, and ideally a good environment to actually run in. And if that is the case, definitely don't wanna try to run through the pain.


This, very much this. If the shin splints are minor you can run through them, but anything that is causing severe pain should require several days off to recover. Continuing to run on severe shin splints will just make things worse, and as Seriha said, can lead to stress fractures. Although stretching before and after a workout is incredibly important to loosen muscles and keep from pulling or straining something, it has very minimal impact on shin splints. Not sure how this topic got so offbase, but it's probably for the best.

Osgood-Schlatters my freshman year was pretty much all I needed to experience to never want to **** around with leg pain again. Took about 2 months before I could walk without a limp. x.x
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#109 Aug 07 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Default
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Hairspray wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Two of my best friends from FFXI pretty much ruined their high school and college social lives because of FFXI. To this day, one of them refuses to ever play another MMORPG because of the setback FFXI put him in. He didn't understand how to communicate in the real world and he basically missed out on the entire college experience because he was too shy to even initiate conversations with people.

I'm not saying this to try and justify making games easier, I'm saying this to give examples of what an overly hardcore game can do to people. Trust me, I'm all for hardcore content that is extremely challenging, and I honestly wouldn't even mind if there were things in the games similar to the relic weapons of FFXI that took an incredible amount of time to get, as long as it could be done in small doses. What I'm not interested in are the 24-72 hour HNMs where you have to be basically glued to your screen for 3-4 hours every day in hopes of getting claim, or 12-24 hours sitting during a spawn window so that your LS can get there first (hi2u Tiamat). Or the 8 hour sky runs to try and get full popsets for ONE chance to spawn a God. I missed so many social events myself because I was "too busy" waiting for a mob to spawn, or having my life scheduled around our linkshells events.

If there are people who still want that, so be it. They can form their own free companies and go grind away on whatever hard content is available. I just know there are also a lot of people who don't want that anymore. I'm truly hopeful the game caters to both types of players. I'm not trying to be conceded and say that my playstyle is the only one that matters. I want something to make everyone happy, and I honestly believe that Yoshi is the type of producer that will accomplish this. The argument goes both ways, let's just wait and see what actually happens in game before getting out our pitchforks.


I have a friend who will also never play FFXIV or any other MMO again for that matter, because of what FFXI did to him.. he lost his job, and his wife came within a hair of leaving him over it...

FFXI was too much hardcore. HNM camping was just ridiculous... I'll personally not be going the hardcore route ever again...

I'm getting married and my fiance plays with me... so we'll not be doing any HNM for sure. Maybe some raids and other content that can be done in a short amount of time... but no 72 hour camps, or 8 hour sky/sea runs...

Bartel I couldn't have said it better myself.


I just love how people continue to mention HNM camping only as the basis for everything that is hardcore, and to other quoted person albeit I feel bad for your friend you described the game was not like that for everyone. Stuff like relic and HNM were in the game but guess what.........they were not mandatory at all. I rarely bothered to camp HNM stuff myself and I played for over 6 years.

I also played FF11 in small doses and about as much as any other mmorpg, only exception was that I had millions of things to do throughout all levels and was never.....and i repeat this once more NEVER EVER pressured to hit level cap to "start the real game" as many other mmorpg have done after WoW.

did people ever forget there was stuff like:
Abyssea • ANNM • Assault • Bastion • BCNM • Campaign Battles • Campaign Ops • Delve • Dynamis • ENM • Einherjar • Fields of Valor • ISNM • Legion • Limbus • Meeble Burrows • Moblin Maze Mongers • Reive • Salvage • Skirmish • Voidwatch • ZNM
Missions • Quests • Besieged • Campaign Adventuring Fellow • Ballista • Brenner • Chocobo Raising • Chocobo Racing • Reputation • Hobbies • Guides • Pankration • Trial of the Magians

-leveling skills, leveling crafting, exploration

what we ex-ff11 players really want is a adventure(which should not be completed in 1-3 days) and not a single player mmorpg or hand me downs.

to name a few only by the way HNM were not mandatory and end all be all. They were there for whoever wanted to do them and all the power tot hem but not mandatory to the game.

P.S- some of my most memorable moments in ff11 were in xp parties and socializing in game. Also roaming around real live world and being scared of my enviroment. I want a leveling experience not a endgame bum rush one.( one of the many reasons i refused to play WoW when i played ff11)

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 4:43pm by KingAlkaiser

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 4:45pm by KingAlkaiser

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 4:49pm by KingAlkaiser
#110 Aug 07 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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KingAlkaiser wrote:
I just love how people continue to mention HNM camping only as the basis for everything that is hardcore, and to other quoted person albeit I feel bad for your friend you described the game was not like that for everyone. Stuff like relic and HNM were in the game but guess what.........they were not mandatory at all. I rarely bothered to camp HNM stuff myself and I played for over 6 years.

I also played FF11 in small doses and about as much as any other mmorpg, only exception was that I had millions of things to do throughout all levels and was never.....and i repeat this once more NEVER EVER pressured to hit level cap to "start the real game" as many other mmorpg have done after WoW.

did people ever forget there was stuff like:
Abyssea • ANNM • Assault • Bastion • BCNM • Campaign Battles • Campaign Ops • Delve • Dynamis • ENM • Einherjar • Fields of Valor • ISNM • Legion • Limbus • Meeble Burrows • Moblin Maze Mongers • Reive • Salvage • Skirmish • Voidwatch • ZNM
Missions • Quests • Besieged • Campaign
-leveling skills, leveling crafting, exploration

what we ex-ff11 players really want is a adventure(which should not be completed in 1-3 days) and not a single player mmorpg or hand me downs.

to name a few only by the way HNM were not mandatory and end all be all. They were there for whoever wanted to do them and all the power tot hem but not mandatory to the game.


My response to your rant:

BartelX wrote:
Trust me, I'm all for hardcore content that is extremely challenging


I never said HNMs or relics were mandatory, I said that a lot of people wasted their youth trying to get them because of the way they were structured, and I don't want to see the same thing happen in XIV. That doesn't mean I don't want challenging content, it doesn't mean I want to beat the game in 1-3 days, and it doesn't mean I want a single player mmo. I am also not speaking for everyone, I am speaking for myself and players like me who aren't looking for the endless grind and timesinks that a game like FFXI made mandatory. I realize how much content ffxi had, it's the reason I played for 6+ years and still think of it as my favorite mmo of all time. But a lot of the systems in that game were nothing but grind and I'll be glad to get away from that in XIV for the most part.

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 4:51pm by BartelX
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#111 Aug 07 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I just love how people continue to mention HNM camping only as the basis for everything that is hardcore, and to other quoted person albeit I feel bad for your friend you described the game was not like that for everyone. Stuff like relic and HNM were in the game but guess what.........they were not mandatory at all. I rarely bothered to camp HNM stuff myself and I played for over 6 years.


You're strawmanning so hard the Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz called to demand his stuffing back.

HNMs were simply sited as an example of hardcore play, not the basis of all things hardcore.

It's easy to sit back and say only a fool would play to excess, but that's discounting the peer pressure of demanding linkshells that required you to attend all events, even the 3am ones the night before your exam, or you could kiss the seniority you've worked to build up in the past year goodbye. A lot of kids didn't have the maturity to realize it wasn't worth it. It didn't help that FFXI insisted on letting the game set the time many favorable conditions happened on a 24 hour clock rather than the players who have to sleep sometime.
#112 Aug 07 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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KingAlkaiser wrote:

did people ever forget there was stuff like:
Abyssea • ANNM • Assault • Bastion • BCNM • Campaign Battles • Campaign Ops • Delve • Dynamis • ENM • Einherjar • Fields of Valor • ISNM • Legion • Limbus • Meeble Burrows • Moblin Maze Mongers • Reive • Salvage • Skirmish • Voidwatch • ZNM
Missions • Quests • Besieged • Campaign Adventuring Fellow • Ballista • Brenner • Chocobo Raising • Chocobo Racing • Reputation • Hobbies • Guides • Pankration • Trial of the Magians



Campaign Battles were all I did for a really long time. I wasn't forced into a party but I could play a multiplayer event. I met some cool folks along the way. FFXIV:ARR's FATEs remind me of little random campaign battles, which is cool.
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#113 Aug 07 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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KingAlkaiser wrote:


did people ever forget there was stuff like:
Abyssea • ANNM • Assault • Bastion • BCNM • Campaign Battles • Campaign Ops • Delve • Dynamis • ENM • Einherjar • Fields of Valor • ISNM • Legion • Limbus • Meeble Burrows • Moblin Maze Mongers • Reive • Salvage • Skirmish • Voidwatch • ZNM
Missions • Quests • Besieged • Campaign Adventuring Fellow • Ballista • Brenner • Chocobo Raising • Chocobo Racing • Reputation • Hobbies • Guides • Pankration • Trial of the Magians



Most of those are so full of time sinks they were completely inaccessable to anyone with a life outside of the game. A lot of them required a ton of effort for very little reward. I guess you could classify that as "hardcore"? I mean who else would bother putting all that effort into Pankration? Have you seen some of the requirements for the Trial of the Magian equipment? Who wants to kill an NM under a certain rare weather condition whose respawn is several hours with a dinky weapon and finish the mob with a minimum amount of damage with a specific elemental hit about 50 or so times? What if the weather conditions end before the fight is over? If you don't see sh*t like this as an obvious time sink then I have some property in Arizona with a beach view to sell you.

Look FFXI had charm but from a design and playability standpoint it was awful. Claiming time sinks as hardcore content does a disservice to the idea of "hardcore".

Edited, Aug 7th 2013 5:30pm by reptiletim
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#114 Aug 07 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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First off, for all the haters, naysayers, and skeptics, I am not some hired spammer or troll with the intended will to make this post turn into a scene from the gladiator. Having said that, I highly appreciate everyone on both sides of this argument stating their opinions and alternative thoughts. I didn't expect much success to come from this but I got more than i bargained for. The reason why i haven't been active on this post
and responding is because i'm currently busy with Finals. When I am done i will come back and offer up my counterarguments and thoughts.

-thanks
#115 Aug 07 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Probably half that list turned into content that was dead 3 months or so after implementation, too. As well, I'd hardly put a number of them in the endgame category if solely due to (lacking) rewards.

I was a Campaign junkie, largely because it was pick-up-and-play friendly without all the drama and elitism of a perfect mamool merit party or whatever. However, rewards rarely made it more than sub-par EXP and I wouldn't be surprised if servers saw the Shadowlord 2.0 battle more than 3 times apiece. The actual beastmen strongholds probably weren't much better off.

Had I the means to really endgame-ify Campaign, then you would've seen all the armor paths getting upgrade options that'd eventually put stuff like Sky or Limbus gear to task. There were also a number of other flaws in the Campaign system I would've addressed, but that's ultimately another subject. Anyway, players would've been able to learn all the generals' WS permanently, too. Also would've created some more just to fill in the gaps and better flesh out options.

Can't forget that stuff came over a decade, so even expecting that range of content in XIV at launch would be silly.
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#116 Aug 07 2013 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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I motion to lock this thread... anyone else?

I just foresee this turning into a soon to be necropost.
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#117 Aug 07 2013 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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jayfly wrote:
I motion to lock this thread... anyone else?

I just foresee this turning into a soon to be necropost.


Wait, I need to share my shin story.

Well it's not really a story, but I worked out earlier this year with horrible shin pain, but I was also doing some high impact stuff.

I've taken about 2-3 months off and my shins finally feel back to normal.

So, I'm going to start running again...until FFXIV comes out, lol.
#118 Aug 07 2013 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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Abyssea • Great content, offered gameplay for solo, group, and alliance to get gear. Not time sinked. I saw people get gear in much less time than HNM or dynamis. Problem was the gear outdated most pre abyssea stuff.

ANNM • Never bothered with it.

Assault •Really cool content for small groups was super fun.

Bastion • Easy, but accessible to casuals.

BCNM • Great instanced content for filling in time between grinding xp and merits. You could make money.

Campaign Battles •I liked this alot. But because the rewards were permanent and not as good as other content. Thius content got the shaft.

Campaign Ops • Easy but accessible to small groups.

Delve • Quit right as this got introduced.

Dynamis • Great alliance content. The time sinks and drop rates were abysmal. Good luck casuals.

ENM • They were ok I guess.

Einherjar • This was fun alliance content too.

Fields of Valor • Good boon to world xp, but abyssea ruined this post 30.

ISNM • Cool and the different currency kept it relevant until abyssea pawned it gear wise. Casual.

Legion • I don't know if I was just stupid or what. But doing this content was very confusing for me lol.

Limbus • This content was the bomb. I think this content was the most fun for me besides expansion CoP.

Salvage • I liked this as well. It was pretty casual if you were a competent player.

ZNM- Enjoyed this but the way tiers and failure was handled screwed casuals.

Quests • Enjoyed this but hated the extreme gating.

Besieged • Best public event imo. Didn't happen often enough and wished it took place in more areas than AL Zhabi/WG.

Campaign Adventuring Fellow • Liked this and wanted it in ARR. With improved story and gambits.

Ballista • Brenner • Didn't care for XI PvP, but I know some did.

Chocobo Raising • I'm glad it was there, but could have been better. It gave a break from the rest of the game. Hopefully ARR does better.

Chocobo Racing • Never did it, only because I wanted to mount and race. Not watch cutscenes.

Reputation • Didn't like the grindy methods for building it. But it helped add some believability to npc/player interactions.

Trial of the Magians- Some people didn't like the weird spawns, etc. But this kind of content was great and could be great for people who want to grind open world mobs as endgame.

The one thing I never liked about FFXI. Is 90% of all the content was some twist on melee vs monsters. I wanted different rides as well. Things like Magitek battles, Airship battles, etc. All of them where players could take control and affect the outcome.

Sorry for the massive wall.

#119 Aug 08 2013 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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While there was a lot to do in FFXI, activities typically fell into one of two categories:
1. Highly rewarding, but required scheduling your life around the game in order to participate.
2. Could be accessed at your own leisure, but either had lackluster rewards or required a lot of grinding for decent rewards.

There's no clear distinction between "Hardcore" and "Casual" when it's come to players or content. But I think one telling characteristic of "Hardcore" content is that you have to play according to the game's schedule or someone else's schedule. Meanwhile, "Casual" content is something that you can participate in according to your own schedule.

Stuff like HNMs and old school Dynamis are clearly activities that requires scheduling your life around the game. I would even characterize Assault as that type of content. To be able to progress in Assault, you basically had to get into a static group, mainly due to the tag system. Between those who had to save their tags for their static group and those who had to use their tags to farm points for Salvage entry, it was extremely difficult to find people willing to run a specific Assault.

It wasn't until Abyssea came out that the game had something that was easier to access on your own schedule while still featuring good rewards. Abyssea was also criticized widely as being too casual friendly, dumbing down the game, etc etc.
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