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Producer Letter LIVE VIII English Translations: Phase 4 8/17Follow

#152 Aug 08 2013 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's Shiva I bet. She was the subject of a developer's blog a long time ago.
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#153 Aug 08 2013 at 8:58 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
It's Shiva I bet. She was the subject of a developer's blog a long time ago.


I found the blog post!

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/blog/post/171
#154 Aug 08 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea! I do remember that..and as popular as Shiva is I'm sure she is the secret info they were holding out on. Lets keep our fingers crossed!
#155 Aug 08 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
It's Shiva I bet. She was the subject of a developer's blog a long time ago.

If there's a fourth, chances are it will be Ramuh. When SMN was first announced, Ramuh was in the data-mining. Quite a few things have changed since then, but the other summons are correct if you ignore the names of the Carbuncles.

Personally, I hope I'm wrong. Shiva is a thousand times more awesome than Ramuh could ever dream of being.
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#156 Aug 09 2013 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, my take on the token thing was like, say, get 1 for timing out/leaving/whatever and 5 for winning. A given item may cost 50 tokens. Now, you could spam fail (though there are probably some kind of timing lockout in place) and get an item in 50 runs, or try to win and get it in 10. I honestly think most will try to win by virtue of expediting the process, but you'll certainly have those that'll just cheese the system or whine incessantly about it even being possible.

Anyway, I wasn't surprised to see the typical ******** from the elites about Crystal Tower being DF-capable once launched. I like how they automatically assume things are dumbed down to kiddy tier and all the dirty casuals would dare to infringe upon their greatness. I'm reminded of this video a guy did about WoW and how LFR "killed the game" because he deliberately played a gimp character, did next to nothing in fights, and then whined about getting the easiest mode of content clears. This falls back a bit into my sentiment of how most are going to actually want to try. The other aspect is that depriving people of content is dumb, both as a consumer and producer. More specific to his "experiment", he never really considers the possibility he's playing with people overgeared for the content or that people getting "carried" has been around since long before any kind of automated matching service in MMOs. It doesn't mean the gimplets will learn nothing during these fights. It doesn't mean they'll quit the next day just because they've seen it. It just means they haven't been hamstrung by gobs of repair bills and farming requirements just to see some story content. There's still an RPG in MMORPG, right...? Just checking.

So, yeah, neener to those uppity complainers. However, loosely related to that was Yoshi mentioning it'll take people 3 or 4 months to get ready for Crystal Tower. Does this include a month of leveling? Gearing up one job? All of them? I'm really hoping he doesn't fall into the trap other raiding games have in deliberately stringing out content like that, because then the tasks become impossible to some in a reasonable time frame while others slip away into raid-logging status because the rest of the game has nothing else to offer them for improvement. But we'll see. Some people have been clamoring for "CoP hard!" out of all this, when my thoughts of CoP difficulty stemmed more on having capped gear and finding the right people at the right time on the right jobs to actually do a fight.
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#157 Aug 09 2013 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Smiley: rolleyes

Quote:
Anyway, I wasn't surprised to see the typical ******** from the elites about Crystal Tower being DF-capable once launched. I like how they automatically assume things are dumbed down to kiddy tier and all the dirty casuals would dare to infringe upon their greatness.


You're right that nobody knows how difficult Crystal Tower is, because it wasn't available in beta. But is it reasonable to assume that they'd open it up to DF groups if it wasn't completeable by a DF group? My concern isn't that the dirty casuals might get their fingerprints on my hard content. My concern is that the reportedly hardest content in the game might already have been nerfed to the point where 24 strangers can do it.

With no replacement for it.

Quote:
I'm reminded of this video a guy did about WoW and how LFR "killed the game" because he deliberately played a gimp character, did next to nothing in fights, and then whined about getting the easiest mode of content clears.


And if LFR had been the only endgame option in WoW?

I agree that LFR existing in WoW is a good thing, because other difficulty modes exist as well for people who want a greater challenge.

Quote:
The other aspect is that depriving people of content is dumb, both as a consumer and producer.


I agree. But high-end players also need content. You can't just deprive content in the other direction and it's suddenly fine.

Quote:
So, yeah, neener to those uppity complainers.


You may want to look into the origins of that word, and reconsider its use here.

This was an unusually venomous post from you, and I'm not sure exactly why you felt it necessary. I hope it was cathartic for you, and I also hope that Yoshi and the dev team don't share your seemingly-blind hatred of high end raiders.
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#158 Aug 09 2013 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Smiley: rolleyes

Quote:
Anyway, I wasn't surprised to see the typical ******** from the elites about Crystal Tower being DF-capable once launched. I like how they automatically assume things are dumbed down to kiddy tier and all the dirty casuals would dare to infringe upon their greatness.


You're right that nobody knows how difficult Crystal Tower is, because it wasn't available in beta. But is it reasonable to assume that they'd open it up to DF groups if it wasn't completeable by a DF group? My concern isn't that the dirty casuals might get their fingerprints on my hard content. My concern is that the reportedly hardest content in the game might already have been nerfed to the point where 24 strangers can do it.

With no replacement for it.

Quote:
I'm reminded of this video a guy did about WoW and how LFR "killed the game" because he deliberately played a gimp character, did next to nothing in fights, and then whined about getting the easiest mode of content clears.


And if LFR had been the only endgame option in WoW?

I agree that LFR existing in WoW is a good thing, because other difficulty modes exist as well for people who want a greater challenge.

Quote:
The other aspect is that depriving people of content is dumb, both as a consumer and producer.


I agree. But high-end players also need content. You can't just deprive content in the other direction and it's suddenly fine.

Quote:
So, yeah, neener to those uppity complainers.


You may want to look into the origins of that word, and reconsider its use here.

This was an unusually venomous post from you, and I'm not sure exactly why you felt it necessary. I hope it was cathartic for you, and I also hope that Yoshi and the dev team don't share your seemingly-blind hatred of high end raiders.


The thing is, these are the initial raids being released. This isn't content 3-4 years after the game is out, where there are a ton of options for endgame and you can really cater progression to different types of people. Yoshi wants everyone to be able to access this initial content, and I don't think that's a bad idea. I have a feeling that even though they are making it DF-accessible, it still won't be a snooze-fest. I think that most DF groups will still wipe quite a bit. The point though, is that if they made it so hard that only the hardcore raiding free companies could complete it, they've just alienated a huge chunk of their playerbase.

I'm hopeful that down the line, like maybe a year down the line, there will be hardcore raids for the hardcore, and easier stuff for the casuals, but right out of the gate, I'm very glad that they are making this content accessible. I don't plan to be involved in a hardcore raiding company, so it will be nice to be able to grab a group of friends and fill in the gaps with DF and still tackle the content. I know I'd be pretty bummed out if I couldn't do that simply because I'm "not hardcore enough".

TLDR: give it time and I think both groups (hardcore and casuals) will be satisfied, but make it accessible for all (or at least most) at the start. Just my opinion on the matter.
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#159 Aug 09 2013 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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I generally agree with that, Bartel. My concern is that without difficult content at launch, players looking for that kind of gameplay just won't stick around. SWTOR had that same problem, the raids were too easy at launch, it crippled their endgame. I don't want to see that happen here.

I'm a big believer in accessible content. And we won't really know for sure one way or the other until we see it. But doing this out of the gate was a red flag for me. The other big thing is going to be SE's development cycle. I have a feeling that a year is too long to wait for difficult content, especially when you consider that the players that content would be for are the ones who will reach THIS content the fastest. While development cycles obviously can't revolve around the top 0.1% of guilds (because that would be insane), they still need to account for them. I have a feeling that a year is too long a wait for new content, especially if the "hard" content here turns out to be too easy.

Let me also clarify that I'm someone who's done heroic raids in WoW. My guild was ranked third on our server at the end of Cataclysm for progression. At the same time, I don't believe having accessible content is a bad thing. I believe that casual players are healthy and necessary for a game to survive. I also believe that creating ONLY less difficulty content is equally exclusionary as creating only super hard content.
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#160 Aug 09 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
I generally agree with that, Bartel. My concern is that without difficult content at launch, players looking for that kind of gameplay just won't stick around. SWTOR had that same problem, the raids were too easy at launch, it crippled their endgame. I don't want to see that happen here.

I'm a big believer in accessible content. And we won't really know for sure one way or the other until we see it. But doing this out of the gate was a red flag for me. The other big thing is going to be SE's development cycle. I have a feeling that a year is too long to wait for difficult content, especially when you consider that the players that content would be for are the ones who will reach THIS content the fastest. While development cycles obviously can't revolve around the top 0.1% of guilds (because that would be insane), they still need to account for them. I have a feeling that a year is too long a wait for new content, especially if the "hard" content here turns out to be too easy.

Let me also clarify that I'm someone who's done heroic raids in WoW. My guild was ranked third on our server at the end of Cataclysm for progression. At the same time, I don't believe having accessible content is a bad thing. I believe that casual players are healthy and necessary for a game to survive. I also believe that creating ONLY less difficulty content is equally exclusionary as creating only super hard content.


I hate to be this guy, but why do we really need to account for the top 0.1%? If it's not tough enough for them, or meaty enough for them, let them move on to other games that fit the bill. I'd much rather see them catering the game to the other 99.9%. I mean, if we really need to cater the game to that 0.1%, then make extreme mode versions of the raids where they just buff the crap out of all the mobs, which wouldn't even eat up any resources of the dev team, and give them loot that is very slightly more uber than the other modes.

I guess I just don't see the reason to be catering to the tiniest sliver of gamers who purposely blow through content as fast as they possibly can just to get a "world first" or whatever other status symbol they get out of it. Perhaps it's just because I'm past that stage of my own life. I'm not saying it's wrong to want that, I'm just saying it really doesn't bother me if this game doesn't cater to that crowd. I'm completely ok with that.
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#161 Aug 09 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I guess I just don't see the reason to be catering to the tiniest sliver of gamers who purposely blow through content as fast as they possibly can just to get a "world first" or whatever other status symbol they get out of it. Perhaps it's just because I'm past that stage of my own life. I'm not saying it's wrong to want that, I'm just saying it really doesn't bother me if this game doesn't cater to that crowd. I'm completely ok with that.


I know you don't want to be that guy, but I didn't actually say SE needed to cater to a tiny minority of players. I said they needed to account for them.

Having hard content gives people something to work on, which in the world of MMOs means time for the dev team to work on the next thing. That obviously shouldn't be the only content available, but it should be available. Content that requires progression is a good thing.

This could be entirely academic for all we know. I don't like judging things before I've seen them myself, I consider it sloppy and rude. Why don't we see what actually happens, and THEN break out the pitchforks and torches.
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#162 Aug 09 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder if they have plans for super hard end game crafting.
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#163 Aug 09 2013 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
IMFW wrote:
I wonder if they have plans for super hard end game crafting.


Your leve is to craft a fabrege egg, and.....GO!
#164 Aug 09 2013 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
IMFW wrote:
I wonder if they have plans for super hard end game crafting.


Your leve is to craft a fabrege egg, and.....GO!


Smiley: laugh

That could be pretty cool actually... some high end crafting leve that asks for something super hard? Maybe it could award a neat piece of furniture or a rare dye or something.

It's worth exploring, and it gives some more credence to the idea that crafting professions can be full-blown classes.

I'd still kinda like to see crafting jobs too. There's some creative potential there.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 12:14pm by Callinon
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#165 Aug 09 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Archmage Callinon wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
IMFW wrote:
I wonder if they have plans for super hard end game crafting.


Your leve is to craft a fabrege egg, and.....GO!


Smiley: laugh

That could be pretty cool actually... some high end crafting leve that asks for something super hard? Maybe it could award a neat piece of furniture or a rare dye or something.

It's worth exploring, and it gives some more credence to the idea that crafting professions can be full-blown classes.

I'd still kinda like to see crafting jobs too. There's some creative potential there.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 12:14pm by Callinon


I like the idea of crafting jobs. Basically Master [insert craft here]. It would be cool if crafters could create one masterwork item per craft, the culmination of their crafting career.
#166 Aug 09 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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That all sounds great, i was thinking too if there will be jobs for crafting and gathering, im trying to think what they could do. That master idea sounds cool, what do you think it would do?
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#167 Aug 09 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
IMFW wrote:
That all sounds great, i was thinking too if there will be jobs for crafting and gathering, im trying to think what they could do. That master idea sounds cool, what do you think it would do?


I think the Master crafters would be just that, able to craft things a standard crafter couldn't. Super difficult content for crafters basically. The one masterwork would be character crafted relics, named weapons like Anduril, Excalibur or Aegis-Fang. In mythology heroes usually have named weapons and armor, FFXIV should be the same. No idea how it would work mechanically but it would be neat.
#168 Aug 09 2013 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:

I hate to be this guy, but why do we really need to account for the top 0.1%? If it's not tough enough for them, or meaty enough for them, let them move on to other games that fit the bill. I'd much rather see them catering the game to the other 99.9%. I mean, if we really need to cater the game to that 0.1%, then make extreme mode versions of the raids where they just buff the crap out of all the mobs, which wouldn't even eat up any resources of the dev team, and give them loot that is very slightly more uber than the other modes.
[...]


I can guarantee you that "hardcore" people hate this because it's really not harder in the sense of "challenge" in practice -- all it does is shrink the margin of error you can have and create a sense of déjà vu with the encounter. If they did do an "extreme" version of a raid, Yoshi will need to throw actual dev resources on it or it will be eventually be hoisted up as a prime example of slacking in quality.
#169 Aug 09 2013 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
IMFW wrote:
I wonder if they have plans for super hard end game crafting.

Your leve is to craft a fabrege egg, and.....GO!

The NPC needs to look like Ron Ben-Isreal.
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#170 Aug 09 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:

I guess I just don't see the reason to be catering to the tiniest sliver of gamers who purposely blow through content as fast as they possibly can just to get a "world first" or whatever other status symbol they get out of it. Perhaps it's just because I'm past that stage of my own life. I'm not saying it's wrong to want that, I'm just saying it really doesn't bother me if this game doesn't cater to that crowd. I'm completely ok with that.


That's very interesting. As someone who is just coming to the game for the first time, after only having played FFXI for a number of years, I perhaps don't have the proper view of Legacy's Top Tier concerns/wishes. I just thought that maybe there was a Lawsuit that SE was trying to avoid because of their 'failure' with 1.0 and that's why there have been so many gestures from SE, like reduced subscriptions. Failing that reason, I'm not sure why SE is treading so softly (or so it appears). Maybe it is a cultural issue of politeness. I really feel that the JPN are being so polite to all of us, but I hope it doesn't mean that they don't have the necessary backbone to get the job done (and I have no idea what that would look like).

I would like to think that I am going to be playing the game for years, and that even though Legacy players might leave because they are disgusted with SE, that the game will be something that will keep me and thousands of other coming back month after month and year after year with younger people joining and enjoying the game. In the meantime, I like the Beta so far, I bought the PS3 CE version and I hope to be part of a game loving community. Mwah!










Edited, Aug 9th 2013 3:24pm by Grandmomma
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#171 Aug 09 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Techsupport wrote:

I was a little taken back about the idea of someone being horrible at the job and still being able to earn the gear, even though they don't deserve it. But I am trusting the YoshiP has thought of this and has it where the tokens don't add up to much. And really, how bad does someone have to be to not complete most content? Or maybe have some way to denote that the gear was "bought" and not "earned" so to speak?


I still have flashbacks involving me running out of invisibility powder while solo hiking the 85 miles through Aht Urghan to get blue mage (I started on XBOX so I was a lvl 30 rdm main at the time), or even worse was spending two days on the beach in Valkurm Dunes waiting on the 1% carbuncle ruby to drop for SMN. The skill factor being up there is one thing (Promyvions were challenging, but do-able provided you weren't in a party with Patrick Star), but the luck factor could have been toned down a notch.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 3:02pm by Valkayree
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#172 Aug 09 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grandmomma wrote:

Maybe it is a cultural issue of politeness. I really feel that the JPN are being so polite to all of us, but I hope it doesn't mean that they don't have the necessary backbone to get the job done (and I have no idea what that would look like).


It is likely because Yoshi and his team are just straight cool. Sega and Sonic Team are based out of Japan, and consistently shaft North American Players of Phantasy Star. They promised PSO2 to NA, then six months ago delayed the game indefinitely for no reason. No updates, no letters, no cool video chats... silence. All the while they are releasing awesome content for JP players, and any NA player who tries to get online on the JP server and make themselves known gets booted within the week. It is not an issue of cultural politeness, it is an issue of Yoshi and his team really doing a great job promoting their game and catering to their customers. And SE has always been more NA conscious than Sega, imo. Yoshi and everyone involved all deserve this game to be a success imo.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 2:44pm by Valkayree
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#173 Aug 09 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
IMFW wrote:
That all sounds great, i was thinking too if there will be jobs for crafting and gathering, im trying to think what they could do. That master idea sounds cool, what do you think it would do?


I think the Master crafters would be just that, able to craft things a standard crafter couldn't. Super difficult content for crafters basically. The one masterwork would be character crafted relics, named weapons like Anduril, Excalibur or Aegis-Fang. In mythology heroes usually have named weapons and armor, FFXIV should be the same. No idea how it would work mechanically but it would be neat.


Oh ok yeah that would be freakin sweet! I feel therr is alot of options they coulf take, im excited to see how it all plays out.
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#174 Aug 09 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
I generally agree with that, Bartel. My concern is that without difficult content at launch, players looking for that kind of gameplay just won't stick around. SWTOR had that same problem, the raids were too easy at launch, it crippled their endgame. I don't want to see that happen here.

I'm a big believer in accessible content. And we won't really know for sure one way or the other until we see it. But doing this out of the gate was a red flag for me. The other big thing is going to be SE's development cycle. I have a feeling that a year is too long to wait for difficult content, especially when you consider that the players that content would be for are the ones who will reach THIS content the fastest. While development cycles obviously can't revolve around the top 0.1% of guilds (because that would be insane), they still need to account for them. I have a feeling that a year is too long a wait for new content, especially if the "hard" content here turns out to be too easy.

Let me also clarify that I'm someone who's done heroic raids in WoW. My guild was ranked third on our server at the end of Cataclysm for progression. At the same time, I don't believe having accessible content is a bad thing. I believe that casual players are healthy and necessary for a game to survive. I also believe that creating ONLY less difficulty content is equally exclusionary as creating only super hard content.


I hate to be this guy, but why do we really need to account for the top 0.1%? If it's not tough enough for them, or meaty enough for them, let them move on to other games that fit the bill. I'd much rather see them catering the game to the other 99.9%. I mean, if we really need to cater the game to that 0.1%, then make extreme mode versions of the raids where they just buff the crap out of all the mobs, which wouldn't even eat up any resources of the dev team, and give them loot that is very slightly more uber than the other modes.

I guess I just don't see the reason to be catering to the tiniest sliver of gamers who purposely blow through content as fast as they possibly can just to get a "world first" or whatever other status symbol they get out of it. Perhaps it's just because I'm past that stage of my own life. I'm not saying it's wrong to want that, I'm just saying it really doesn't bother me if this game doesn't cater to that crowd. I'm completely ok with that.



A very good question. While I usually find myself defending casual players to hardcore players, hardcore players have their place too. Even though they might not nearly make up the majority of the player base, their function is essential. Casual players notoriously don't have a lot of time to devote to playing, but hardcore players do. They often end up being the ones who make the most impact on the community. They lead the linkshells. They arrive at the best strategies to use on bosses and playing your class well in general. They take the time to offer data and moderation to fan sites. Groups of hardcore players lead the charge on what's possible to accomplish in the game, making it easier for those who follow in their wake.

If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.
#175 Aug 09 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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This was an unusually venomous post from you, and I'm not sure exactly why you felt it necessary.

And it was intentionally so. I've simply played too many games where the vocal minority quite brazenly advocate exclusionary content to the point where if you can't get into that, you don't really have a game worth playing anymore. And for some reason these devs continually pander to them, never winning that rat race of producing content fast enough to please them while you've probably got an 85%+ share of users that'd love to see even a fraction of that attention put into things they might actually get to see. Overall, I'm not against the idea of high-difficulty content. Rather, I'm against the idea of it needing 10+ people because it means matching schedules, job roles, and all the other little logistics that ultimately don't wind up being pick-up-and-play friendly. If this steps on the toes of all those out there thinking they're the next little Napoleon, so be it.

With more of my early days being in XI, the whole "World First" scene didn't seem all that important. You'd still see people gloat now and then, but ultimately finishing some new piece of content went from awesome to the mundane, especially if you were forced to grind it. In Rift, it got a bit more asinine, as not only did the game announce first discoveries on items or boss kills, you eventually had whole guilds hopping servers just to "steal them" from other established guilds on the shards. At times this involved said guilds exploiting bugs or unintended tactics, but in the end, it really just boils down to another aspect of ego and prestige gaming, which inevitably follows those who demand harder content carry superior rewards with no reasonable alternatives. So, again, we slip back into the problem of advocating exclusionary content.

The guy I mentioned in my last post basically went on to whine that WoW is losing subs because people had nothing do after LFR "EZ Mode'ed" content. And you know, that may be true for some, but I don't think that's the big reason. There are other games out there despite their pros and cons. RL can do its thing, too. It's also possible to simply get bored even if you still have some objectives left to tackle. They might love to argue that casual players come and go, never being loyal and being fickle, but I wonder how many might realize they're being treated as the lesser player, both socially (ridicule about gear/skill, not playing the FoTM, being a first-timer to content, the curious hypocrisy of only getting into groups if you're already geared from a given tier/event, etc.) and by the devs (No matter how many level 50 FATEs you grind, Timmy, that random CT drop you'll never get will beat it!), essentially creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of revolving door players.

So, as extension of Bartel's "that guy" pitch, why the **** should I defend these asses, let alone tolerate their presence when they'd gleefully let a game wither to nothing as long as they can maintain their insignificant digital prestige? Do I need to hop to the BG forums to link you to threads solely dedicated to mocking and harassing FFXI players here, in-game, and on the OF? I'm a big fan of the whole, "Do unto others..." philosophy, of which I do give individuals their fair shake. But if they want to treat people like sh*t, they should not be surprised when people want to treat them like sh*t in return. Hence, venom. It is avoidable, but this falls into my sentiment that game mechanics inspire player behavior. So, what's worth more to SE, a few bitter hardcores or a lot of unhappy casuals? You might not like the answer when looking from it the business standpoint, but I also wouldn't automatically label it the wrong answer for the game in consequence. And that's where SE needs to not half-*** things and get lazy.

Quote:
If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.

I wouldn't be so sure... and even that is some of the sense of ego I allude to. No, not all hardcore players like the a-holes I generally rally against, but we can't exactly pretend things they discover wouldn't be discovered by others if they hadn't been already and simply not shared. So, while the majority of players are indeed casuals, they are also not visiting sites like this. Are they ghosts not "contributing" to the community? Do their own desires for the game hold no merit? I'd say no to both, but at the same time, I'd love to see more games doing in-game surveys with small rewards for actually participating in them. Yeah, you might get some who spam click through them, but even removing the fear of retaliation from your peers for a spoken thought can embolden some to actually speak their mind.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 6:14pm by Seriha
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#176 Aug 09 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
.

If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.


I think thats a bit of a stretch.
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#177 Aug 09 2013 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.


Yeah, no.

Hardcore players are great for keeping each other motivated, but I'd be willing to guess that most players don't interact much with the "hardcores." Not because they don't want to, but because the hardcores don't usually want to. They are 1337!

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#178 Aug 09 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:

A very good question. While I usually find myself defending casual players to hardcore players, hardcore players have their place too. Even though they might not nearly make up the majority of the player base, their function is essential. Casual players notoriously don't have a lot of time to devote to playing, but hardcore players do. They often end up being the ones who make the most impact on the community. They lead the linkshells. They arrive at the best strategies to use on bosses and playing your class well in general. They take the time to offer data and moderation to fan sites. Groups of hardcore players lead the charge on what's possible to accomplish in the game, making it easier for those who follow in their wake.

If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.

The hyperbole is strong with you.
#179 Aug 09 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
It's not that I think hardcore players are pointless, but they're not any more special than anyone else, either.

Without the semi-hardcore and casual players, the hardcore players wouldn't be playing, because they wouldn't think they were impressive enough people.
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#180Ehllfire, Posted: Aug 09 2013 at 4:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) All hardcores are, are people with too much time and too little self esteem. They over compensate for whatever perceived lacking they have by trying to be better than every other pixel. While I dont care they do this, they often come off as douches by rubbing their achievements in everyones faces.
#181 Aug 09 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
It's not that I think hardcore players are pointless, but they're not any more special than anyone else, either.

Without the semi-hardcore and casual players, the hardcore players wouldn't be playing, because they wouldn't think they were impressive enough people.


I think you might be talking about elitists there.

We get bogged down in definitions, where both "hardcore" and "casual" are dirty words depending on who you're talking to.

I prefer to use those terms to indicate how much time someone is willing to invest in their gameplay. A hardcore player invests quite a bit, whereas a casual player invests less time.

I've known some very highly-skilled casual players. My guild was on a fairly casual schedule too (our stated purpose was: completing content while having a life). I've also known hardcore players who sucked....a lot.

If you want to know what hardcore players contribute to the business model, they contribute loyalty. If you can hook that player, they're with you for years. They're the evangelists for your game too, and often come with groups of like-minded people that they've played with for a long time. The more casual players will tend to be more flighty. This is MORE true in f2p games, but it's still the case in subscription games. It's easy for a casual player to lose all interest in what they're doing, because they're not that invested in the experience to begin with.

I also believe that it's possible to attract both of these groups without snubbing either one. It's tricky. But doing so contributes to a healthier environment overall and a healthier community too.
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#182 Aug 09 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Let's take a look:

TwistedOwl wrote:
Xoie wrote:

Casual players notoriously don't have a lot of time to devote to playing, but hardcore players do.
Pretty reasonable. Don't think many people could argue that hardcore gamers spend more time playing. Much more.
They lead the linkshells.
Sounds about right. If you're actively recruiting members, organizing events, etc. you are a hardcore player whether you like it or not.
They arrive at the best strategies to use on bosses and playing your class well in general.
No arguments here. That comes naturally when you play and replay content, obsessing over the minutia.
They take the time to offer data and moderation to fan sites.
The second you start parsing your combat log, you cease to be a casual player
Groups of hardcore players lead the charge on what's possible to accomplish in the game, making it easier for those who follow in their wake.
Basically a restatement of what was said above

The hyperbole is strong with you.


Nope, no hyperbole here. Actual hyperbole would have been a billion million times more obvious.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 6:41pm by Aasher
#183 Aug 09 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.


Yeah, no.

Hardcore players are great for keeping each other motivated, but I'd be willing to guess that most players don't interact much with the "hardcores." Not because they don't want to, but because the hardcores don't usually want to. They are 1337!




Maybe I'm pouring it on a little thick. But I'm looking at this from a value-add point-of-view, not that you'll end up as best buddies. I don't think I've ever associated with that many hardcore players myself, but the community did benefit from their efforts. I've had hardcore crafters turn a high value drop into its associated high value item. I've benefitted from the wisdom of those that shared their techniques with the general population. I've benefitted from using their add-ons that helped me play better. I've benefitted from their wiki entries that told me the fastest way to complete a quest. I've benefitted from their organization of linkshells to the point where all I had to worry about was showing up on time.

I think there is a great deal that causal players benefit from in free extras that make the game a better experience. I don't necessarily believe it makes hardcore players more special but it does make the relationship mutually beneficial.
#184 Aug 09 2013 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
I still have flashbacks involving me running out of invisibility powder while solo hiking the 85 miles through Aht Urghan to get blue mage (I started on XBOX so I was a lvl 30 rdm main at the time), or even worse was spending two days on the beach in Valkurm Dunes waiting on the 1% carbuncle ruby to drop for SMN. The skill factor being up there is one thing (Promyvions were challenging, but do-able provided you weren't in a party with Patrick Star), but the luck factor could have been toned down a notch.


That summoner quest still haunts me. I had 5-6 classes at cap in the 6 years I played ffxi, and in that entire time not ONCE did I see that carbuncle's ruby drop... and that's with well over 500 leech kills... RNG hated me in that game.

Xoie wrote:
A very good question. While I usually find myself defending casual players to hardcore players, hardcore players have their place too. Even though they might not nearly make up the majority of the player base, their function is essential. Casual players notoriously don't have a lot of time to devote to playing, but hardcore players do. They often end up being the ones who make the most impact on the community. They lead the linkshells. They arrive at the best strategies to use on bosses and playing your class well in general. They take the time to offer data and moderation to fan sites. Groups of hardcore players lead the charge on what's possible to accomplish in the game, making it easier for those who follow in their wake.

If there weren't hardcore players, there would be no glue holding the community together, organizing it, and keeping it motivated to continue playing.


I don't plan on being hardcore in FFXIV, but I still plan on contributing to the community and helping to organize things. I plan to make guides, help players learn the best way to play their class, etc. I don't think it requires being "hardcore" to accomplish those things you mentioned and I suppose it ultimately depends on your definition of hardcore, as reading this thread I think there are many. I think it requires a dedication to wanting to help people and to improve the gaming community, but that and being hardcore don't necessarily have to go together. I haven't really been hardcore since I played FFXI, but I've still strived to play the best I can and be successful while helping others, and I think I've achieved that in all the games I've played.

I don't think the game would suffer all that much without the hardcore players, in fact I think it would make players far more independent; instead of only trying to achieve that "cookie cutter build" or "1400 DPS" because otherwise you suck. I'm not saying I want all the hardcore players out of the game, as I do understand they have a role in figuring out THE best strategies to win fights the quickest, but I also wouldn't mind being forced to figure it out with my own Free Company, even if it's not necessarily the most efficient or fastest. I guess what I'm saying, is that I want the toughest content to be tuned towards the "midcore", the players that still contribute and help determine strategies, formulas, etc... but the ones who also have lives and aren't required to raid 5-7 nights a week.

I realize that sounds selfish, but hey, it's just what I want. It's not what I'm expecting or demanding the game to be like. It's just what my ideal game would play like.

Edited, Aug 9th 2013 7:54pm by BartelX
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#185 Aug 09 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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That summoner quest still haunts me. I had 5-6 classes at cap in the 6 years I played ffxi, and in that entire time not ONCE did I see that carbuncle's ruby drop... and that's with well over 500 leech kills... RNG hated me in that game.

OMG I remember how many hours I tried. I did get it and then right after me others got it. I always thought it was somehow related to the day of the week and the weather. Never figured it out, so I just kept at it until it happened.

Shiva?

She looks too human. I like my opponents to look ugly, very ugly, with drool and sheer creepiness that scares you enough, so you are driven to kill it before you die of fright.

I mean, come on, I look at that picture and just want to go shopping with her. Hey Elvira, let's shop and then have a Cosmo lunch!






Edited, Aug 9th 2013 8:04pm by Grandmomma
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#186 Aug 09 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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A couple places are saying the Unicorn Mount is only obtainable by the White Mage Class.

White Mage on Unicorn Mount Screenshot here:
http://synergyxiv.guildwork.com/forum/threads/5203b912c16e4d7b0c7ed901-letter-from-the-producer-xviii-notes

Also a second translation of the Live Notes is included at this site.

Further discussion in the forum reveals that the quest to unlock some mounts will be Class/Job specific. After you complete the quest , it will be available to all your classes.
#187 Aug 09 2013 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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Gnu wrote:
A couple places are saying the Unicorn Mount is only obtainable by the White Mage Class.

White Mage on Unicorn Mount Screenshot here:
http://synergyxiv.guildwork.com/forum/threads/5203b912c16e4d7b0c7ed901-letter-from-the-producer-xviii-notes

Also a second translation of the Live Notes is included at this site.

Further discussion in the forum reveals that the quest to unlock some mounts will be Class/Job specific. After you complete the quest , it will be available to all your classes.


I will so level my white mage for that. Worth every cure.
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#188 Aug 09 2013 at 7:34 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:

Yeah, no.

Hardcore players are great for keeping each other motivated, but I'd be willing to guess that most players don't interact much with the "hardcores." Not because they don't want to, but because the hardcores don't usually want to. They are 1337!



Hey Thayos, it's good to see you're still around man. Are you going to play ARR and if so, what server? I agree with your post too. The dubious "duplicating trick" of FFXI that led to massive bans by SE was proof that the elites don't always share info with the normal player base. It was karma that caught up to them for cheating so much. :P
#189 Aug 09 2013 at 9:41 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
It's not that I think hardcore players are pointless, but they're not any more special than anyone else, either.

Without the semi-hardcore and casual players, the hardcore players wouldn't be playing, because they wouldn't think they were impressive enough people.


Hardcore players are the people who run the tests to find out the exact effects of spells and abilities, the weights of stats in WS and other things that help incredibly in understanding how the mechanics of the games work. They're running harder content first and coming up with the best strategies and they generally have a larger impact on how the game is shaped. I don't think that makes them special, but I'd think that they deserve some credit that you can't really attribute to casual players.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The dubious "duplicating trick" of FFXI that led to massive bans by SE was proof that the elites don't always share info with the normal player base. It was karma that caught up to them for cheating so much.

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.
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#190 Aug 09 2013 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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This whole casual vs hardcore argument drives me batsauce crazy. I'm a skilled gamer. I don't have 87 hours a week to dedicate to a raiding schedule. Where does that leave me?

I feel opening up the raids to the DF will allow raiding FCs to fill gaps in the roster and I would be happy to fill one. But I can't commit to a nightly raiding schedule. It's not fair to my family.

How in the **** are you supposed to get exposed to the content and excel at it if you don't have the opportunity to experience it? Allowing DF groups access to the raid areas means that they can become more skilled at that content without devoting hour upon endless hour. There aren't a finite number of drops in there right? So what does it matter how many people try it out? If you don't wanna be teamed up with some dirty casual then don't open the DF.

Sorry about being snippy...my company laid off 5,000 people today with 4500 more coming (thankfully i kept my job) and I'm feeling a bit abrasive toward entitled dbags.
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#191 Aug 09 2013 at 10:45 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.


There is a very fine line between an exploit and game mechanics working as intended. Kiting(using landscape and bad mob AI) to exploit. Chainspell + Stun= Exploit, but it was later accepted as ok. Ninja tanking isn't an exploit, but it wasn't designed to tank either. Salvage and Nyzul aren't hard and the casuals were doing them during that time. You say it was an exploit, but let's be real, the community used exploits all the **** time. Some were ok by SE and others weren't. The invisible wall for fighting AV was another example of this. Ironically SE made the HNM so impossible it had no drops at that point. So go ahead and call it an exploit if you must, but it doesn't matter since hardcore players unlocked all these exploits and more. Some were adapted by the community is all.
#192 Aug 09 2013 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The dubious "duplicating trick" of FFXI that led to massive bans by SE was proof that the elites don't always share info with the normal player base. It was karma that caught up to them for cheating so much.

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.

I dunno, I'd consider tripling your drops a significant advantage for future battles (Like Usu MNKs, the Salvage job of choice), as well as those who merc'ed gear out to line their pockets with gil for other ventures like relics. And while I have plenty of beefs with Salvage as an event, saying casuals couldn't do it is just more perpetuation of the over-glorification of certain players. Might they do the perfect clear? Hard to say, but they were still quite capable of targeting specific NMs, barring RNG-based ones like early Mad Bomber or Rampart NMs.

Otherwise, there's certainly lots of tips and strategies I've given to other players over the years. I was probably one of the earliest people to identify the minimum barspell duration level and its subsequent scaling. I certainly rode SE's *** on the OF when the initial iteration of Temper and its DA% sucked. I posted sources of new items when I found 'em and people were still stumped. I got a **** of a laugh when we had an elite BG-regular RDM who made it his life's work to tell us quite frequently how much we're wrong about the job and its theme went on to swear up and down that DoTs wore the moment the RDM died. I have no delusion that someone else would have done the same if I wasn't around, though, even among the melee RDM crazies with all the min/max'ing that went on there and fighting with the pro-backline trolls like the earlier mentioned. And this just scratching the surface of my XI "career". I know it's a blow to the ego to think yourself replaceable, but as long as these are coded worlds with coded rules, knowledge is finite, and all the hypothetical perfect vacuum parsing in the universe can utterly fall apart the moment you enter an actual in-game scenario. And if there's one thing I've learned, sometimes being too mathematically precise to the uninitiated can actually scare people off. So more often than not I tend to paint in broader strokes (and in phases before only having the best) unless the situation demands it. Gotta start somewhere, which is a fact too often forgotten.
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#193 Aug 09 2013 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
... but as long as these are coded worlds with coded rules, knowledge is finite, and all the hypothetical perfect vacuum parsing in the universe can utterly fall apart the moment you enter an actual in-game scenario. And if there's one thing I've learned, sometimes being too mathematically precise to the uninitiated can actually scare people off...


Unless you're Neo...Smiley: waycool

Edited, Aug 10th 2013 1:39am by Kierk
#194 Aug 10 2013 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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Not enough red pills going around, it'd seem.

Edited, Aug 10th 2013 2:02am by Seriha
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#195 Aug 10 2013 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.


There is a very fine line between an exploit and game mechanics working as intended. Kiting(using landscape and bad mob AI) to exploit. Chainspell + Stun= Exploit, but it was later accepted as ok. Ninja tanking isn't an exploit, but it wasn't designed to tank either. Salvage and Nyzul aren't hard and the casuals were doing them during that time. You say it was an exploit, but let's be real, the community used exploits all the **** time. Some were ok by SE and others weren't. The invisible wall for fighting AV was another example of this. Ironically SE made the HNM so impossible it had no drops at that point. So go ahead and call it an exploit if you must, but it doesn't matter since hardcore players unlocked all these exploits and more. Some were adapted by the community is all.


I don't call them exploits because I must or even because I want to, I call them exploits because SE does. It's their game and they make the rules. It's pretty much on them to define what is and isn't working as intended. There is always grey when executing a strategy for an encounter, but since the beginning of time mobs have dropped one treasure pool. Everyone who participated knew that it wasn't working like it was supposed to.

Bad pathing is bad pathing. According to SE, there is nothing wrong with running away from something unless you are positioned such that the mob would never be able to do damage to you. People kited KB and Kirin all the time, but they still took damage. What you refer to that people used to defeat AV was called pinning. It's not the same as kiting as you can take damage while kiting, but not while pinning.

I'm just making the point that because this content was practically restricted to already well geared and coordinated groups, the knowledge wouldn't have circulated to the casual player. Even if it had, they probably wouldn't have been in a position to do anything about it. "Hey, you can kill AV with a group of KC wielding DRKs". Regardless of what you call it, it's out of reach of the casual. Most players couldn't have cared less because CoP was 'done' to them when the completed the final mission.

Edited, Aug 10th 2013 3:17am by FilthMcNasty
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#196 Aug 10 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Will we have any capability to group with friends across servers? I didn't see anything in this letter that mentioned it.
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#197 Aug 10 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Will we have any capability to group with friends across servers? I didn't see anything in this letter that mentioned it.


No, you will either have to pay for a server transfer or hope that you get grouped together in the Duty Finder.
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#198 Aug 10 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

The content that duping was used on wasn't content that casual players were capable of clearing anyway. It wasn't any secret strategy that gave you an advantage in battle, it was an exploit.

There is a very fine line between an exploit and game mechanics working as intended. Kiting(using landscape and bad mob AI) to exploit. Chainspell + Stun= Exploit, but it was later accepted as ok. Ninja tanking isn't an exploit, but it wasn't designed to tank either. Salvage and Nyzul aren't hard and the casuals were doing them during that time. You say it was an exploit, but let's be real, the community used exploits all the **** time.

The people using the Salvage duping "mechanic" kept it all hush hush as long as they could. I think that's a pretty good sign that they knew it was an exploit that would eventually get patched. They might not have ever thought that the punishment was going to be as severe as permanent bans. But they knew they were engaging in risky activity.
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#199 Aug 10 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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Do you guys think that they will have relic weapons for DoH anf DoL?
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#200 Aug 10 2013 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
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LebargeX wrote:
This whole casual vs hardcore argument drives me batsauce crazy.


I am a hardcore gamer in a casual gamer's life.

Edited, Aug 11th 2013 12:04am by Gnu
#201 Aug 11 2013 at 5:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
This whole casual vs hardcore argument drives me batsauce crazy.


I am a hardcore gamer in a casual gamer's life.

Edited, Aug 11th 2013 12:04am by Gnu



This is exactly the point I was trying to make lol
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