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#1 Aug 10 2013 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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Let me say this upfront because otherwise people will think I'm being negative: thank you guys for being you.

We're not perfect and we do have our share of trolls (even if they're more cute and cuddly than anything). However, there is a general air of lessened stress when browsing and viewing. It isn't perfect and tempers do flare sometimes but it's generally a better place to hang out. GameFAQs is nothing short of trolls and generally isn't worth going unless you're actually looking for an FAQ. BG isn't too bad most of the time but during the debates game points become lost and it turns into a mini-soap opera half the time.

I bring this up because I recently had to forward information to the FBI for death threats on my own simply because the admin of the site did nothing. In fact he not only did nothing he threatened to remove my account if I continued to bother him.

Let that soak in a minute.

People were confused about FFXIV's registration process and post after post after post of telling them "You can't register now/the SE store isn't account management/read and do what the email says/if you're confused stop reading forums and contact your retailer". Someone came in and blasted me for being an inconsiderate ***hole and not bothering to answer questions and stating, quite publically how I should be beaten and that he'd like to do other things -- on a public forum. Quote him and reply "If you actually bothered to read, you'd see it's written already what you can and can't do.", he complains about my "trolling" and it immediately earns me a ban, yet someone threatening actual violence gets nothing. He follows that up with well over a dozen long PMs declaring what he'd like to do to me for being *** as well as being <insert dramatic, overused pointless profanity> and at least one death threat on a PM. From the sounds of most of the posts it sounded more like a stalker than anything else.

I forward all this information to an email to the website's admin. His response was posted above. So I ended up having to go beyond that and figure out how to submit information to the FBI (because from what I understand they actually take death threats seriously even if it's potentially only a hyped up teenager).

Contrast this with Kaolian.

He isn't perfect (a few topics I think he was too forceful on) but when someone continued to harass me in PMs over a year ago he did something about it. For that, he's earned my respect for the fact that a person was being harassed, he could see the proof, and he took action. When someone like Poubelle creates several accounts and continually acts out he forwards the information to his ISP provider.

So yeah, thanks ZAM staff. The community isn't perfect (none ever is), but the overall atmosphere's a lot more pleasant than people give it credit for.

I appreciate it (and the fact that I know I wouldn't have to deal with things like above myself if it were to occur).

Thank you.
#2 Aug 10 2013 at 8:27 PM Rating: Default
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I agree with you that the admin should of handled the harassment, but seriously, you're wasting the time of the FBI all because you couldn't get justice from some retarded admin? We all know the threat is impossible to carry out because you're anonymous so it's just trash talking. I'm not defending this guy, but seriously you really need to chill out. Ignore this guy and move on instead of abusing the FBI all because the admin wouldn't cater to your demands.

Edit: I'm sorry if my reply came off a bit harsh, but you have to admit you're really making far too much out of this. I've had to deal with trolls in the past too. It's really best to ignore them and they'll give up eventually. Take it easy man, life's too **** short.



Edited, Aug 10th 2013 9:37pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#3 Aug 10 2013 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I agree with you that the admin should of handled the harassment, but seriously, you're wasting the time of the FBI all because you couldn't get justice from some retarded admin? We all know the threat is impossible to carry out because you're anonymous so it's just trash talking. I'm not defending this guy, but seriously you really need to chill out. Ignore this guy and move on instead of abusing the FBI all because the admin wouldn't cater to your demands.

Edit: I'm sorry if my reply came off a bit harsh, but you have to admit you're really making far too much out of this. I've had to deal with trolls like you in the past too. It's really just to ignore them and they'll give up eventually.

Edited, Aug 10th 2013 9:32pm by ShadowedgeFFXI


Oh now this is ironic... Smiley: rolleyes
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#4 Aug 10 2013 at 8:39 PM Rating: Default
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Viertel is new to the internets? People saying things like this really shouldn't come as a surprise at this point. I'm not saying that it's ok or that I endorse it, but it's going to happen and it happens quite frequently. Forums are no place for the soft of skin.

Forwarding this kinda crap to the FBI though... that's rich Smiley: lol
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#5 Aug 10 2013 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't care if you think the threat isn't credible. Death threats are serious. Even if there is no intent for actual violence, there is still the intention to cause distress. That should be dealt with seriously, harshly. Hiding behind a computer is not an excuse to behave that way.

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#6 Aug 10 2013 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why is it so unusual to expect admins to do things about death threats? Look at what is going on with Twitter right now for example.

Edited, Aug 10th 2013 9:43pm by Wint
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#7 Aug 10 2013 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Look at what is going on with Twitter right now for example.
Are you suggesting we use the NSA scandal to get some free publicity?
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#8 Aug 10 2013 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm talking about the death threats some people are getting.
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#9 Aug 10 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Default
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
I don't care if you think the threat isn't credible. Death threats are serious. Even if there is no intent for actual violence, there is still the intention to cause distress. That should be dealt with seriously, harshly. Hiding behind a computer is not an excuse to behave that way.



You didn't bother to read the reply, did you? Here let me break it down for you so you get it.

The OP wanted the admin to do something about it the death threats in which most people including me agree with 100%.

Now because the requests were denied, then he decides to seek justice by going around the admin. If the admin had actually done his job, the OP wouldn't be taking it this far. The troll would simply be banned and everyone would carry on with their everyday life.

Please thoroughly read the replies before you comment, it helps to understand the context.
#10 Aug 10 2013 at 8:50 PM Rating: Decent
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
I don't care if you think the threat isn't credible. Death threats are serious. Even if there is no intent for actual violence, there is still the intention to cause distress. That should be dealt with seriously, harshly. Hiding behind a computer is not an excuse to behave that way.


Yeah, like I said there is no excuse for that behavior. At the same time, Viertel is anonymous too. How exactly can you take a threat seriously when the person making the threat really has no way of finding out who and where he is? C'mon now...
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30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#11 Aug 10 2013 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I'm talking about the death threats some people are getting.


Here is one example of the absurd behavior going on there: http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2013/08/abuse-twitter?fsrc=scn%2Ffb%2Fwl%2Fbl%2Ftrollattack

As for the OP, I'm sorry to hear about the situation you're going through. I understand why you'd be concerned about the death threats along with what else this person knows about you. I hope you feel safer here.
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#12 Aug 10 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Why is it so unusual to expect admins to do things about death threats? Look at what is going on with Twitter right now for example.



Facebook and Twitter are dangerous as most accounts aren't anonymous. You have real life pictures and contact info so the threat rating goes sky high. It's important to point out the severity of a Twitter threat is usually more serious because of those risk conditions. You'd think Twitter would be sued if someone actually cared out a threat.
#13 Aug 10 2013 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
PhoenixOmbre wrote:
I don't care if you think the threat isn't credible. Death threats are serious. Even if there is no intent for actual violence, there is still the intention to cause distress. That should be dealt with seriously, harshly. Hiding behind a computer is not an excuse to behave that way.



You didn't bother to read the reply, did you? Here let me break it down for you so you get it.

The OP wanted the admin to do something about it the death threats in which most people including me agree with 100%.

Now because the requests were denied, then he decides to seek justice by going around the admin. If the admin had actually done his job, the OP wouldn't be taking it this far. The troll would simply be banned and everyone would carry on with their everyday life.

Please thoroughly read the replies before you comment, it helps to understand the context.


The OP is contacting the relevant authorities because the admins failed to do it themselves. That doesn't seem hard to grasp. Once you reach a certain age, you begin to realize that actions come with consequences, and death threats have pretty serious consequences in real life. There is no reason they should be tolerated on the Internet either, and in most cases a forum ban is not enough.
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#14 Aug 10 2013 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
The OP is contacting the relevant authorities because the admins failed to do it themselves. That doesn't seem hard to grasp. Once you reach a certain age, you begin to realize that actions come with consequences, and death threats have pretty serious consequences in real life. There is no reason they should be tolerated on the Internet either, and in most cases a forum ban is not enough.


To be fair I doubt they've had to deal with a stalker situation before. I have (World of Warcraft) except rape was more on his mind than killing me (though both could have occured).

I don't **** around with this anymore.
#15 Aug 10 2013 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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Im with Shadowedge here, i dont think every little thing needs goverment intrvention. Someone throws a death threat at me, i tell them good luck they will need it lol.
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#16 Aug 10 2013 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:

The OP is contacting the relevant authorities because the admins failed to do it themselves. That doesn't seem hard to grasp. Once you reach a certain age, you begin to realize that actions come with consequences, and death threats have pretty serious consequences in real life. There is no reason they should be tolerated on the Internet either, and in most cases a forum ban is not enough.


It should of never got to this point. The person should of been banned long ago. Honestly the person trolling the OP was probably some 12 year old kid with a potty mouth. I agree with you though and that's all that matters, right?

As for the OP, I really feel for him/her. I know I would of handled it differently, but everyone is different.
#17 Aug 10 2013 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Woah. Serious poo is going down in this thread. Interesting info about twitter (which I don't normally follow.) "Report Tweet" sounds like a good feature to add.

Sorry to hear you are having a hard time Viertel. Death threats do have to be taken seriously. It's a social no-no for a reason.

Is it illegal to threaten to kill someone? Can you be arrested for it?

(Google insues.)
Hmm, I guess not exactly. You can be arrested for coersion, harrassment, or intimidation.

It seems that internet threats are actually a new legal horizon that we are walking into. Society may have ignored these threats in 2000-2010, I'm thinking it that businesses/companies are going to have some debatable legal liability when a patron documents a death threat that is ignored, but later results in a fatality. Schools have had 0-tolerance for threats of any kind for as long as I can remember. Will internet forums become the same way over time?

Men make death threats on Facebook, go directly to jail

#18 Aug 10 2013 at 9:52 PM Rating: Default
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I wonder what penalty 1st degree murder of a forum avatar carries... Smiley: lol
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#19 Aug 10 2013 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I wonder what penalty 1st degree murder of a forum avatar carries... Smiley: lol

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#20 Aug 10 2013 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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It also crosses national borders, too. Just examples of GIFT in action.
#21 Aug 10 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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FF XI/XIV generally has a more mature fan base than other games, so places like this where the adults control the tone and narrative are refreshing, even if they're to be expected anyways. OP had the unfortunate luck of running into a child who has the anonymity of the internet to protect him, and allow him to act out without any repercussions. He also ran into an admin who seems to be the type who enjoys whatever imaginary power he can exert over those who use his site. It's a bad combo. We're all better off in a place like this.
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#22 Aug 10 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Death threats are certanly no laughing matter, and any site admin that doesn't do something about one when reported is an idiot. If nothing else because they themselves would be liable for not reporting it to the authorities if you got killed by the guy. You don't get to threaten to end another human beings life. We take that very seriously around here. There are some absolutly ******* insane people on the internet, so you have to assume that the danger is real unless it's truely one of those rare cases of a joke or a comment between friends and treated by both parties as such. We've had a few death threats over the 13 years that I've been here, some of them ending more amusingly than others. We've had people literally stalked by people they had taken restraining orders out against, more than a few obsessed trolls, the occasional godraiden death threats, etc. None of those are ok. When we encounter something like that here, standard operating proceedure for all our admins is to if possible first contact the person who was threatened and ask them how they would like to proceed. If they want law enforcement involved, we provide any and all relevant ip, contact, and posting information to verified law enforcement officials. if they cannot be contacted in a timely manner, or if we feel it's a sufficient level of threat to justify calling the police (and thats only happened once) then we go that route. So far we've never had a poster killed by a crazy person at any rate! (ironically, hiding the karma numbers seems to have cut down on them for some reason.)

Anyways, Thank you! We definitly appriciate it when people notice what goes on (or in this case, things we prevent from going on?) behind the scenes. We try to keep things fairly invisible to minimize the admin interference into normal forum operations whenever we can. If any of you ever feel you are in danger from another poster here, think something illegal is happening, or even just have a bad feeling about something and want someone to take a look, please don't ever hesitate to contact any of us. That's what we're here for. Obviously our response will vary depending on circumstances, but I can and will garuntee that someone will look into the situation and see what is going on and act accordingly. If you ever get a response of "**** off, i'm busy" when you report a death threat to an admin here, let me know and I'll ban them myself.

As the Senior forum Admin, it sometimes falls to me to play "bad cop" in situations where a heavy "slap" might salvage a poster we would otherwise lose to a silent and permanent ban. Thats one of the reasons we'll occasionally seem too forceful in a given situation. Other times there are behind the scenes PM's and manouverings that go on leading up to a more public thread.

FilthMcNasty wrote:

At the same time, Viertel is anonymous too. How exactly can you take a threat seriously when the person making the threat really has no way of finding out who and where he is? C'mon now...


You would be suprised what people can find if they dig enough. For example, in one case I know of, a certain individual managed to scam a younger child of a forum user out of an in game account. The only thing known was the name of the individual's in game character, the contents of the character that was stolen (a few of which were distinctive and rare) and an approximate geographic location and a few persistant spelling errors due to some chat screen captures (for eample, I always spell definitly wrong, etc.), Using that, certain people were able to locate another gaming forum where the scammer used the same tag, and then backtrace enough publically available information to eventually identify the person in question difinitivly, to the point where return of the stolen account was arranged. While that's an extreme example, it's not a huge task to get more details about someone if you are crazy enough or determined enough to go through the effort. It's why you have to basically interact online with the expectation that anything you write will eventually be seen by anyone on the planet, and proceed accordingly. It's the primary reason why we don't allow people to post phone numbers, etc here whenever possible just because of all the personal info you can glean from that.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
retarded admin

What is up with you and calling admins retarded anyways? More than a few people find that term fairly offensive by the way. Most people who aren't 12 year olds find something better to do than call people names. You should probably think about maybe kinda stopping doing that before you annoy some admin somewhere and they ban you as a waste of bandidth. Just a suggestion and all. Oh, and please stop sassing Wint. It makes me cranky when people talk back to my admins. Thanks!

Happy posting everyone!
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#23 Aug 10 2013 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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My wife agrees, you definitly should not call people retarded. She has permanently banned that word from our household.

Spelling error detectives for the win! What a great story that is.

There sure is a great deal of appreciation for ZAM and its Admins floating around lately. You guys must be onto a pretty successful modus operandi.
#24ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Aug 10 2013 at 10:44 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ha Ha.... very funny. I guess they let you out of your cage, eh. I just knew you were going to troll me somehow. I suppose a sense of humor is important for the senior admin like you. I need to follow your lead for my own admin duties. If any admin somewhere in the world thinks they can ban me, it's be funny as **** to watch them try and epic fail.
#25 Aug 10 2013 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
If any admin somewhere in the world thinks they can ban me, it's be funny as **** to watch them try and epic fail.


Do you really want to find out?
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#26 Aug 10 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Screenshot
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#27 Aug 10 2013 at 11:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Screenshot
.


I'm more of a popcorn.jpg person myself right now.

http://images.wikia.com/mlp/images/9/91/Spike_with_popcorn_S3E03.png
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#28 Aug 10 2013 at 11:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm partial to image macros.
Screenshot
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#29 Aug 11 2013 at 12:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I might have to become a premium member, if FF XIV is something I stick with for more than a few months, just so I can post actual pictures and such.

Edited, Aug 11th 2013 2:02am by garethrogue
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Check out the Dream Network, a Twitch.tv community for XIV fans, featuring notable streamers like Mr. Happy, MTQcapture, Rahhzay, and Slyakagreyfox! http://dreamnetwork.tv/forum/index.php
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#30 Aug 11 2013 at 12:12 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

Happy posting everyone!
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Tim! Hah I know who you are now. I am coming for you. When I find you, you had better be prepared.... death by snoo snoo Smiley: sly


ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
If any admin somewhere in the world thinks they can ban me, it's be funny as **** to watch them try and epic fail.


Who's got the line on ShadowedgeFFXI vs every admin in the world?
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#31 Aug 11 2013 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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garethrogue wrote:
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Screenshot
.


I'm more of a popcorn.jpg person myself right now.

http://images.wikia.com/mlp/images/9/91/Spike_with_popcorn_S3E03.png


Smiley: popcorn
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#32 Aug 11 2013 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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I like this community, people actually listen to your opinions, despite common belief.
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#33 Aug 11 2013 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm gonna start calling this stuff Anita Sarkesianing!
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#34 Aug 11 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Did you guys read the thread that Kao posted in his first post? Epicness at it's finest.
Oh, to not be derailing... Death threats are pretty **** serious. I'm glad that people in an authoritative position take them that way.
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#35 Aug 11 2013 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Stilivan wrote:
I like this community, people actually listen to your opinions, despite common belief.


Sometimes, but instead of responding; most of the time you just get ^^b or ^^p
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#36 Aug 11 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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What is this? I don't even..
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#37 Aug 11 2013 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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Indeed, Oliver Rawlings, a Twitter user, chose to apologise for his “trolling” of Ms Beard after a fellow user threatened to tell his mother: vigilante tactics at their finest.

That is one solution. If that doesn't work. We tell the father and then look out!

Seriously, I'm sorry you had that experience, and I'm horrified as to what happened on Twitter.
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