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PvP: The Motivation Joo Need!Follow

#1 Aug 12 2013 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Been browsing the posts on PvP for the last few hours and it looks like theres alotta skepticism over it. While I have no way to back up any statement concerning ff14s pvp (heck, me not even in beta), simply have to implore newcomers to give it a try at least!

FF11 was my first experience to pvp via ballista. While it kinda seems i'm in the 1% group vs the 99% that thought it was a disaster, I must say, in the end, it became my #1 motivation to play. I reason like this: You get that brand new armor you've really been working for, gorgeous stats and all. You finally get that amazing sword drop, the one with +200% crit/ added fx: instant death up 79%. So what do ya do then, just stand around in town and look cute with it? **** no, ya put it to use! And what better way then via PvP? (Ye have not lived until ye have crushed the life out of that sweet little tarutaru next to you!)

Saw some of Yoshi's words as well as posters concerns for mages short lifespans in PvP as well. Can't comment on the larger battles, but 4-4wise, again, you may be surprised. With the right spells, mages in 11 became pretty much indestructable. PvP forces you to evolve that way, puts a fire under yer tush and makes ya advance. I'm a pvp-crackaddict so don't put too much stock in my opinion (was consistantly getting up at 3 and 4am for the JP matches) but the comrads (I won't use the word friends since youre gonna be killin em >:D) you make and the fun you'll have'll be worth it. Granted its not for everyone, no and by GOD you're gonna get raped in ways not ment for the physical body, but me implore ya, give it a try!
#2 Aug 12 2013 at 5:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Using words like 'raped' is generally why many people dislike pvp.
Understand that the Final Fantasy series is for the most part PvE first. There are plenty of good pvp games on the market. FFXIV doesn't need to go out of its way to cater to that segment of gamers. I understand that FFXIV will have a coliseum of sorts and the 'frontline' thing in the future, but many people simply dislike pvp in PvE games. It's impossible for a gaming company to cater to every segment of the playerbase. I'll use GW2 as an example.
GW2 has arena-type battles, RvR-type content, and PvE content. Would anyone say they did any of them spectacularly? Overall I like the game, but I feel like they just bit off too much. It's impossible to keep everyone happy with the amount of content they need to provide for all game types.
I'd hate to see the FFXIV devs get bogged down making content for a minority of the playerbase. Like you said, maybe 1% of people played ballista in FFXI, so why waste time on it. I'd rather them spend all their time making PvE as awesome as possible and not water their product down by trying to cater to too many different kinds of players.
#3 Aug 12 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
Using words like 'raped' is generally why many people dislike pvp.

Probably inappropriate, but has absolutely nothing at all to do with someone enjoying a game.

ShonaSeraph wrote:
There are plenty of good pvp games on the market. FFXIV doesn't need to go out of its way to cater to that segment of gamers.

Gonna have to beg to differ my dear. The moment your lead producer pipes up to 'make an example' of one of those games and states that the reason for their subscription model is because they're going bigger and better than the rest, you pretty much wrote the check.

You don't have to get everyone to like everything, but you do have to provide enough that there is at least one thing for everyone. I think Yoshi understands that for a lot of people these days, not just in MMOs, but gaming in general; PvP is a large part of the gaming market.

ShonaSeraph wrote:
I'd hate to see the FFXIV devs get bogged down making content for a minority of the playerbase.

They bit it off, now they have to chew it.
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#4 Aug 12 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Ballista was terrible. If they don't speed up and elaborate on combat in ARR, PvP will be terrible in this game too.
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#5 Aug 12 2013 at 10:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I never did ballista. I did the small-scale pvp with friends though. I forgot what it was called. The one that puts you on that small island.

Anywho, I always took BLU for that. BLU was a bit too good at PvP in FFXI.
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#6 Aug 12 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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PvP for whatever reason seems to bring the worst out of people in my experience. The amount of name calling and looking down on others that happen in PvP just doesn't happen elsewhere. Every PvP match that ends in a loss has someone going, "You guys are all terrible" or "What a bunch of baddies". People seem to take PvP way too seriously and are always quick to blame.

Plus, I've never been a fan of PvP in MMO's. Its not really PvP, its basically PvE with other people. If PvP didn't have PvP gear, it might be more interesting. I'm just not a fan of people just hitting the level cap being balanced gear wise and then there is a mad rush to unbalance everything with gear. Then the people who hit 50 a month later are constantly playing catch up while getting dominated by better geared players. Its a struggle to try and get to balanced gear again. And thus, PvP devolves into a grind for gear more so than actual PvP. People join and quit games solely based on what would be the most efficient way to get gear.

And then there is the constant cry for class balance. Very few people ever accept just losing. Its always because someone is playing an overpowered class or has overpowered gear and such. Has there ever been a MMO where the majority of the people are satisfied with PvP?
#7 Aug 12 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
Ballista was terrible. If they don't speed up and elaborate on combat in ARR, PvP will be terrible in this game too.


Smiley: rolleyes Yeah, we get it. You hate the combat speed in this game. Doesn't mean PvP will be terrible, it just means it won't be for you.
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#8 Aug 12 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
PvP for whatever reason seems to bring the worst out of people in my experience. The amount of name calling and looking down on others that happen in PvP just doesn't happen elsewhere. Every PvP match that ends in a loss has someone going, "You guys are all terrible" or "What a bunch of baddies". People seem to take PvP way too seriously and are always quick to blame.


This is the reason I love PvP! The general PvP chat can be hysterical if taken with a grain of salt. I can only imagine that the other side is going through the same thing. It's always the one or two guys who just complain about how bad everyone is. No, literally, apparently some players are so bad in at PvP that somehow it means they're failures in life, so much so that there's no words to describe them, therefore new words must be made up. Words such as 'terribad' which combines 2 words into one to show just how bad one is at PvP.

Where else can you find witty banter such as:
Player 1: hey priest y didn't you heal me, your terribad just go nd throw ur computer away than jump off a bridge.
Player 2: you're*, then*
Player 1: [expletive] noobs who cares what it is just [expletive] heal me your a [expletive][expletive]
Player 2: you're*
Player 1: [expletive] you youre healing sucks
Player 2: your*
...

and so on for about 15 minutes. while nothing really happens.
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#9 Aug 12 2013 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
PvP for whatever reason seems to bring the worst out of people in my experience.
Communication with other players brings the worst out of people.
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#10 Aug 12 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Transmigration wrote:
Ballista was terrible.


Negative, Ballista was incredible.
#11 Aug 12 2013 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Arjuncorpse wrote:
PvP for whatever reason seems to bring the worst out of people in my experience. The amount of name calling and looking down on others that happen in PvP just doesn't happen elsewhere. Every PvP match that ends in a loss has someone going, "You guys are all terrible" or "What a bunch of baddies". People seem to take PvP way too seriously and are always quick to blame.

Plus, I've never been a fan of PvP in MMO's. Its not really PvP, its basically PvE with other people. If PvP didn't have PvP gear, it might be more interesting. I'm just not a fan of people just hitting the level cap being balanced gear wise and then there is a mad rush to unbalance everything with gear. Then the people who hit 50 a month later are constantly playing catch up while getting dominated by better geared players. Its a struggle to try and get to balanced gear again. And thus, PvP devolves into a grind for gear more so than actual PvP. People join and quit games solely based on what would be the most efficient way to get gear.

And then there is the constant cry for class balance. Very few people ever accept just losing. Its always because someone is playing an overpowered class or has overpowered gear and such. Has there ever been a MMO where the majority of the people are satisfied with PvP?

Competition brings out the emotions, not the worst in people. You get the real side of someone after a close competition. If the paid professionals in sports(used to the song and dance)can't control their emotions at all times, how do you expect competition gamers to?

PvP has to have rewards even if the rewards aren't great. That rule applies to all content, people enjoy stuff more when there is a meaningful progression behind it. Thankfully, here there is ranked matches so even if there is level 50 god modes, they can't play with you unless you queue up for it, you can't get ganked, you don't even have to pvp if you're not in the hotzone. Now I think Frontlines will be anything goes, but you can avoid getting smashed by a god if you level up via arena.

Fun PvP is either a completely balanced pvp with only loadouts separating builds or unbalanced pvp. No one likes losing, but the reality is someone has to lose for someone to win. Has there ever been an MMO where the majority is satisfied with PvE and like losing?

I was very excited about PvP being in the game initially but not so much as of now. But I think it's good that SE is offering it as an alternative mode of play. I will still play it for the unique rewards, but I am more excited about the environmental manipulation aspect of it than class builds. I'd much rather have a league based magitek battle circuit or player controlled chocobo racing circuit.

This content is needed as it is mostly perpetual gameplay with less cost and time developing. ARR needs stuff to do in between the PvE content updates and this provides one of those avenues.
#12 Aug 12 2013 at 11:28 PM Rating: Default
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PvP for whatever reason seems to bring the worst out of people in my experience. The amount of name calling and looking down on others that happen in PvP just doesn't happen elsewhere. Every PvP match that ends in a loss has someone going, "You guys are all terrible" or "What a bunch of baddies". People seem to take PvP way too seriously and are always quick to blame.
I agree with this statement 100%...but tthats EXACTLY why I love PvP so much! The word is 'passion'! PvP DEFINITELY brings out the worst in people, and for good reason. example: You're attacking an opponent whose been pestering you 3/4s of the match. You've gotten him down to 3% hp, are about to land the killing blow when suddenly, one of his mages binds you, he runs away, and 2 more of his team mates show up and finish you off. The he comes back and kicks your body. Now would that bring out the best in you? No. You'd wanna follow him back home to his mog-house after the match. But thats the whole point!

PvP is 2% skill/ tech, 98% pure malice/revenge. And be honest..tell me the feeling you experienced when you SERIOUSLY wanted revenge for w/e reason...and got it. It was the best feeling in the world wasn't it? Thats what I love about PvP..its honest. Yes it brings out the worst in one, but even thats a means to an end. (ballista-wise, matches where you knew you had opponents on other team who hated you were always the most fun...kept you on your toes!)

The arguements that PvP forces one to gear-***** and makes play unbalanced are VERY true as well...but again, thats also my driving point...forced advancement. It has the biproduct of making you care about your gear and job significantly more (if you wanna win at least.) And until you make those changes, yes, you're gonna get raped. Yes, raped. Without apology. .....or breakfast the next morning. *shrugs* thats PvP.

Still, like I said, in all honesty, PvP isn't for everyone because, as pointed out, very true, NO ONE likes to get owned. I can remember many instances where 1st-timers (some with beautiful gear) showed up, got murdered, complained for an hour, then never showed up again. At the same time, there were those who, after finding their faces in the dirt the first 2 or 3 matches (more like 20-30 for me...), kept coming back, geared up, really learned the physics of their job, then started returning favors. (Thats why I'm being honest about the rape part, dispel the illusions ;x) Even so, yes, STILL try it out. Used to think PvP was a waste of time myself, til that 1st fateful match...
#13 Aug 13 2013 at 12:54 AM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Ballista was terrible. If they don't speed up and elaborate on combat in ARR, PvP will be terrible in this game too.


Smiley: rolleyes Yeah, we get it. You hate the combat speed in this game. Doesn't mean PvP will be terrible, it just means it won't be for you.


Slow combat means it will be bad for most people in the gaming community. I know a guy who drives a smart car, and for some reason he likes it, it's still a pos. Please don't be offended by my criticisms, I just want this game to pan out and get some real recognition for all the years of work that went in to it. SE has a shot at making a really good game PvE and PvP wise, and most of us don't want them to drop the ball.

*I don't hate the combat speed Bartel, it's just not suited for respectable and competitive PvP.

Edited, Aug 13th 2013 2:58am by Transmigration
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#14 Aug 13 2013 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Ballista was terrible. If they don't speed up and elaborate on combat in ARR, PvP will be terrible in this game too.


Smiley: rolleyes Yeah, we get it. You hate the combat speed in this game. Doesn't mean PvP will be terrible, it just means it won't be for you.


Slow combat means it will be bad for most people in the gaming community. I know a guy who drives a smart car, and for some reason he likes it, it's still a pos. Please don't be offended by my criticisms, I just want this game to pan out and get some real recognition for all the years of work that went in to it. SE has a shot at making a really good game PvE and PvP wise, and most of us don't want them to drop the ball.

*I don't hate the combat speed Bartel, it's just not suited for respectable and competitive PvP.

Seconded.

Ballista worked in FFXI for about 4 job combinations and everything else got pooped on. Cooldowns was a big part of the reason more things weren't viable. Don't even get me started on cast times...
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#15 Aug 13 2013 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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Transmigration wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Ballista was terrible. If they don't speed up and elaborate on combat in ARR, PvP will be terrible in this game too.


Smiley: rolleyes Yeah, we get it. You hate the combat speed in this game. Doesn't mean PvP will be terrible, it just means it won't be for you.


Slow combat means it will be bad for most people in the gaming community. I know a guy who drives a smart car, and for some reason he likes it, it's still a pos. Please don't be offended by my criticisms, I just want this game to pan out and get some real recognition for all the years of work that went in to it. SE has a shot at making a really good game PvE and PvP wise, and most of us don't want them to drop the ball.

*I don't hate the combat speed Bartel, it's just not suited for respectable and competitive PvP.


Don't worry, I'm not offended. The eyeroll was mostly because it's about the third or 4th time I've seen you mention combat being a weak part of the game and making blanket statements about it. Without even being able to test PvP (you do realize there are going to be completely different abilities for it, right?) I just think it's rather futile to claim that the PvP will be terrible without serious changes. Slower paced combat does not make for bad PvP, it means it becomes more tactical, especially when you consider how important positioning is in FFXIV. I don't feel they need to speed up combat to make pvp respectable or competitive, they just need to make it a bit more reactionary, which I fully expect them to do with the new set of abilities.

Again though, we won't know anything until we get to test it, so it's nothing more than speculation.
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#16 Aug 13 2013 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:

Slower paced combat does not make for bad PvP, it means it becomes more tactical, especially when you consider how important positioning is in FFXIV.


Positioning and timing is important at all times in all PvP. More time to make those decisions does not make it more tactical, it just waters down the skill curve. I don't think PvP in ARR will be nearly as bad as it was in FFXI, but the speed of it has nothing to do with "tactics". It's not an RTS.

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#17 Aug 13 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Sinistralx2 wrote:

PvP is 2% skill/ tech, 98% pure malice/revenge. And be honest..tell me the feeling you experienced when you SERIOUSLY wanted revenge for w/e reason...and got it. It was the best feeling in the world wasn't it? Thats what I love about PvP..its honest. Yes it brings out the worst in one, but even thats a means to an end. (ballista-wise, matches where you knew you had opponents on other team who hated you were always the most fun...kept you on your toes!)


Not for me. For me PvP is about going up against other people, and using teamwork to overcome superior numbers/gear etc. It certainly does not bring out the worst in everyone. It brings out the best in a lot of players, as long as they have a good attitude and don't get emotional about it. PvP is always going to be more exciting and engaging to me than most PvE. I'm really looking forward to it in XIV.
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#18 Aug 13 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
BartelX wrote:

Slower paced combat does not make for bad PvP, it means it becomes more tactical, especially when you consider how important positioning is in FFXIV.


Positioning and timing is important at all times in all PvP. More time to make those decisions does not make it more tactical, it just waters down the skill curve. I don't think PvP in ARR will be nearly as bad as it was in FFXI, but the speed of it has nothing to do with "tactics". It's not an RTS.



Meh, I've played PvP in 6 or 7 different mmos, with all variations of combat speed, and that to me had a very minimal effect on how good or bad the PvP was. It was the design of the encounters and abilities that always made me like or dislike PvP in a game. And by tactics, I mean that you really have to think about what skills to use that will maximize your effectiveness, because if combat is a bit slower paced and you choose the wrong skill, you could wind up dead before you have a chance to recover. With many of the button mashers, PvP is paced quicker, which means if you mess up and use 1 wrong skill oftentimes you can recover easier, which was definitely the case in games like WoW or swtor. Conversely, in FFXI, one wrong move in PvP meant death almost every time. This is just from my experiences obviously.

Edited, Aug 13th 2013 1:46pm by BartelX
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#19 Aug 13 2013 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm interested in the addition that coming after launch.......FRONTLINE.If it's close to DAOC in gameplay......this could be the game for me for quite a while.
#21 Aug 14 2013 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Each to their own and I do agree that this game needs to be designed to appeal to as many people as possible in order to stay live but personally I dont live PvP.

The common response to this sort of statement is "well if you dont like it, dont do it" but that fails to recognise the impact on PvE that including PvP has in the game.

Balancing jobs for PvP is a complex process. Balancing jobs for PvE is a complex process. Trying to do both simultaneously is nigh on impossible, this is why SE has suggested they will introduce PvP only skills - to avoid the damage to class balance in PvE. The reality of course is that unless SE succeed where everyone else has failed they will only do a good job with one and I just hope that is PvE.
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#22 Aug 14 2013 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
I mean that you really have to think about what skills to use that will maximize your effectiveness, because if combat is a bit slower paced and you choose the wrong skill, you could wind up dead before you have a chance to recover. With many of the button mashers, PvP is paced quicker, which means if you mess up and use 1 wrong skill oftentimes you can recover easier, which was definitely the case in games like WoW or swtor. Conversely, in FFXI, one wrong move in PvP meant death almost every time. This is just from my experiences obviously.

The hardest thing(personal opinion) about PvP is reading and reacting quickly enough to a situation. If combat is slow there is nearly no chance that you choose the wrong skill because you have ample time to react.

The difference in what you call 'button mashers' is that there is more to it than just spamming abilities. Good PvPers will use tactics like line of sight and juking(purposely interrupting cast to bait your interrupt spell). There is much more pressure(which I enjoy personally) when you have the threat of having a teammate tunneled down because you missed the 1.5 second window you had to stop a dangerous spell from getting through.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#23 Aug 14 2013 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
BartelX wrote:
I mean that you really have to think about what skills to use that will maximize your effectiveness, because if combat is a bit slower paced and you choose the wrong skill, you could wind up dead before you have a chance to recover. With many of the button mashers, PvP is paced quicker, which means if you mess up and use 1 wrong skill oftentimes you can recover easier, which was definitely the case in games like WoW or swtor. Conversely, in FFXI, one wrong move in PvP meant death almost every time. This is just from my experiences obviously.

The hardest thing(personal opinion) about PvP is reading and reacting quickly enough to a situation. If combat is slow there is nearly no chance that you choose the wrong skill because you have ample time to react.

The difference in what you call 'button mashers' is that there is more to it than just spamming abilities. Good PvPers will use tactics like line of sight and juking(purposely interrupting cast to bait your interrupt spell). There is much more pressure(which I enjoy personally) when you have the threat of having a teammate tunneled down because you missed the 1.5 second window you had to stop a dangerous spell from getting through.


I see your point, and I don't disagree with you. I played PvP pretty exclusively for the last 6 months that I played swtor and indeed it was tactical. I guess I just meant that if it's a bit slower, yes you have more time to decide what to do, but it also means other people do as well, which means that each ability use means that much more since if you mess up, it becomes more noticeable (or it did in FFXI and lotro, which both had a bit slower combat). I know I can think of countless times in swtor where I'd mess up a rotation because I was trying to do 8 things at once, but I'd still be able to recover pretty easily because there was more room for error in certain situations. I guess that's also extremely class dependant, as some classes are just much better at getting out of danger than others.

Bottom line, I'm very curious to see how PvP will play out in ARR, and I do think it can be quite successful even at the current combat speed. Then again, who knows... there might be a lower GCD to accompany the different set of abilities in PvP. Or perhaps the PvP stat will increase the GCD so you will gradually build up the pace of combat. I actually think that would be a pretty stellar idea.
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#24 Aug 14 2013 at 7:54 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Then again, who knows... there might be a lower GCD to accompany the different set of abilities in PvP.

This part I don't really understand. Are they solid on having players use a completely different set of abilities in PvP? That seems more than a little daunting to me. SE hasn't really been known for handling logistics very well so I guess we'll see, but I'm confused on how exactly that is going to work out.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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