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My Tanking ExperienceFollow

#1 Aug 19 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Good afternoon Zam!

http://i.imgur.com/y5vRbEx.jpg - High res screenshot

I wanted to post some of my findings on tanking, and see if we can get some conversation started around the issue, and see if my experiences were accurate to the rest of the tanks out there. I played a gladiator, heading towards being a paladin

The Good
1. As a person who as tanked in nearly every mmo out there, i found it easy to pickup and tank from the get go. Most of the time threat management and durability was good in the first two dungeons
2. Had no problems controlling threat from healer or melee DPS, found it easy to do
3. Love the targeting system. The numbers and do not attack logos are awesome
4. Loot system gets us tanks geared pretty quickly from the duty finder
5. Had an idea forever to have a separate box of the mobs your fighting to cycle through and see threat, this was an amazing feature. I didn't pay attention to it at first.
6. I LOVE how your character auto turns to attack. If you position them correctly in front of you, you don't have to turn left and right.

Meh
1. Didn't get much experience with using cooldowns like damage reduction or damage increase, never found a need so i saw myself forgetting to use it.
2. Only combo worth using is savage blade. It's a shame the other combo isn't worth it at this level. That said, Savage blade was an almost instant pull if anyone did sniff threat
3. Speed running but not even on purpose, healers never lose mana. Obviously these were starter dungeons

The Bad
1. Targeting by clicking is really not as fluid as i'd like. That said if you use the little box of mobs that are engaged, it's a cake walk, so it's a hit and miss, but generic targeting i felt like was off.
2. Tab targeting range is way to big. You have to run up to mobs, then turn and face to where you came from to use tab targeting effectively.
3. Didn't setup my mouse for quick presses on the mouse extra buttons, would have been nice (my fault here)
4. Archers seem to pose the biggest threat to pulling mobs off (was 3 level shigher than me too). Found them attacking as soon as i attempted to pull on multiple occasions.

Some interactions
1. Had one monk DPS try to tell me how to tank because they had three classes at level 20. Yelled at me for switching mobs while tanking to stack threat through the entire group. Same person said why am i not spam taunting.... good to know we'll always have dps telling us how to tank haha
2. Same person above was terrified about people rolling greed on items they needed...
3. Tank queing was very fast, love that!
4. Only died once in group, healer got attacked due to DPS pulling before i was ready and the healer and myself went down. Same person responsible as number 1 above lol.
5. Don't stand in red! =)

Overall had a lot of fun in beta, even though i had the 3102 error for all of Sunday. The extension was nice to get to play, however couldn't make it for the last 3 hours, was too tired.
#2 Aug 19 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I only had one trouble run in CB this morning before the servers came down, I got DFed with a group of people that must have been together. They wanted a speed run, which is fine I felt comfortable doing it, but they constantly attacked separate targets even when I marked. They called it "max damage". I call it "dumb as ****". We're not talking AoE here, we're talking single target damage to different targets and they were all over the place about it too (no consistency to their madness). I got into the habit of Lobbing one and then Flash spamming until I was out of MP. After that I cycled through with Savage and maybe combo'd Riot for some MP if I had to cycle more Flash. It was nuts, but we didn't wipe and got through it pretty quickly. It would have been better if they focus fired, it's just faster: period.

Otherwise my rotations were typically: Lob one, Savage another, then when the third got into range I'd Flash a couple times and then focus on Savage rotations with the primary target. Once about half dead on the primary, I'd work my way down the line (Savage rotation on the 2nd, then the 3rd, then back to the 2nd until it was half-way dead). Once the last target was locked I'd throw in Riot rotations to build up a little MP, then I'd typically run to the next group when the last mob was almost dead.

I did find it very difficult to get hate back once in CB on the last boss. The whole group was going gangbusters, I thought I had a lock on hate, but after dropping my rotation to Riot for DPS/MP regen to Flash the giant train I lost the boss to the MNK. I think he blew a level 2 Break early though and that might have been why. I got it back after frantic Savage Blades to finish the fight, but it was tough (not that we were going to wipe, but it's about tanking pride--can't lose single target agro, ever!) :)
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#3 Aug 19 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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One big issue I had in Satasha was line of sight. Healer would stand below some of the platforms and even though he could see me, he could not heal me. Died twice to situations like that. So as a tank or healer, try to stick together in close situations. Also, if you're an archer and you unload all your attacks before the tank is even within shield lob range, please don't kite around the room and take your beating like a man.
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#4 Aug 19 2013 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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desmar wrote:
One big issue I had in Satasha was line of sight. Healer would stand below some of the platforms and even though he could see me, he could not heal me. Died twice to situations like that. So as a tank or healer, try to stick together in close situations. Also, if you're an archer and you unload all your attacks before the tank is even within shield lob range, please don't kite around the room and take your beating like a man.


I played a LNC for all the dungeons and I must have said "Please don't run around if you get aggro...run towards the tank" or something similar. I just don't get why people think running away is going to help anyone.

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#5 Aug 19 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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One more thing: I'd like to see shield bash off the global. It has a huge TP cost already and they could even put longer cooldown on it, but it's impossible to bash when you're in the middle of rotations. It's really unusable unless everyone is playing at a measured pace...and we know how well DD players like to take it easy on tanks. ;)

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 1:26pm by Krycis
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#6 Aug 19 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Default
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My experiences tanking the 3 starter dungeons on GLD:

Shield Lob is awesome for peeling adds off people, or getting adds in general

Riot Blade combo is great for longer/harder fights with multiple mobs when spamming Flash is a must. Usually used at the end of fights to get that mp up for the next one, obviously.

Shield Bash is great for controlling opponents. It's a spammable stun, which is kind of insane. It can be a pain to work into a rotation but putting it off the GCD would make it OP unless the cooldown were increased by quite a bit. As it is now i like having to make the choice between using my stun or using another ability/weaponskill.

Keeping and holding hate wasn't so difficult, but regaining hate when i lost it could often be a challenge. Pretty much everyone i grouped with went all out damage-wise. y favorite was the pugilist who went right for the gigas mini-boss, ignoring the adds, then freaked out when he pulled hate (which was partially my own fault because i was distracted by a misbehaving kitten but still...kill those adds first dude)

I like how basically GLD damage is pointless; its all about using enmity generating abilities. I may be putting more points into VIT than i had originally planned.

It can be a very busy job to play, which I really like. You really have to stay on top of your abilities it or you will lose hate, which is how i like my tanking to be.


Quote:
(not that we were going to wipe, but it's about tanking pride--can't lose single target agro, ever!) :)


right there with you. incidentally i'm glad te game doesn't make this an easy thing to do necessarily.




Edited, Aug 19th 2013 5:23pm by Llester
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#7 Aug 19 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Thoughts from a marauder:

-Getting Flash from Gladiator is an excellent idea. My basic rotation for pulling was Tomahawk > Flash (when all in range) > Overpower. At this point hate is pretty much locked down on all mobs. Then I go into normal heavy swing > maim, swap targets, heavy swing > skull sunder, swap, repeat mode. If a mob strays towards the mages, another tomahawk gets it back nicely.

-Second Wind and Internal Release from pug are great! Second Wind for those oh sh*t moments, Internal Release at the start of a large group pull or on a boss. Internal > Overpower > heavy > maim > overpower is crazy damage with all those **** crits.

-Move the mob enmity panel to the middle of the screen. You can easily see your hate this way, and just click onto a mob to target it instead of awkward tab targeting.

-Tp and mp management are essential. With a limited MP pool and no way to replenish in combat, spamming Flash isn't an option for a MRD. Balancing your Flashes and Overpowers is the way to go for successful tanking.

-Don't forget about Foresight and Bloodbath! Foresight is a 20% defense boost, which is awesome on boss fights and big pulls. Bloodbath was MADE for large groups of mobs. Spamming Overpower while under it's effect can pretty much negate most of the incoming damage you take, especially with Foresight up as well.

-Fracture is unecessary on non-bosses. I mean, it's not BAD to use it, but I'd much rather be starting another heavy swing > skull sunder for added enmity or heavy swing >maim for added damage. On bosses I try and always keep it up however.
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#8 Aug 19 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
Shield Bash is great for controlling opponents. It's a spammable stun, which is kind of insane. It can be a pain to work into a rotation but putting it off the GCD would make it OP unless the cooldown were increased by quite a bit. As it is now i like having to make the choice between using my stun or using another ability/weaponskill.

A change would definitely require some balance, but the stun has diminishing returns (I believe). So you can just go locking a target down. 140TP out of 900 is a lot of resource to put into one skill, adding a 15/30sec cooldown wouldn't make it useless if taken off the GCD.

Right now I don't see any benefit to using a stun while in a tanking rotation. Soloing, it's not as frenetic, you don't have to manage your hate against three other people's, so you can take your time for feeling when the big TP skill is coming your way. Perhaps it won't be so bad once you get Provoke so you have an "oh ****!" if you slow it down in attempt to get a stun on a boss skill. Who knows, but I think Bash would be best served off the GCD with a heftier reuse timer.
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#9 Aug 19 2013 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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In almost every way, I found the controller superior. It's effortless to target with the d-pad and you can mark targets with X (on xbox controller, square on PS3).
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#10 Aug 19 2013 at 4:29 PM Rating: Default
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Krycis wrote:
Llester wrote:
Shield Bash is great for controlling opponents. It's a spammable stun, which is kind of insane. It can be a pain to work into a rotation but putting it off the GCD would make it OP unless the cooldown were increased by quite a bit. As it is now i like having to make the choice between using my stun or using another ability/weaponskill.

A change would definitely require some balance, but the stun has diminishing returns (I believe). So you can just go locking a target down. 140TP out of 900 is a lot of resource to put into one skill, adding a 15/30sec cooldown wouldn't make it useless if taken off the GCD.

Right now I don't see any benefit to using a stun while in a tanking rotation. Soloing, it's not as frenetic, you don't have to manage your hate against three other people's, so you can take your time for feeling when the big TP skill is coming your way. Perhaps it won't be so bad once you get Provoke so you have an "oh sh*t!" if you slow it down in attempt to get a stun on a boss skill. Who knows, but I think Bash would be best served off the GCD with a heftier reuse timer.


I found uses for it, specifically the adds in the boss fight in copperbell, as well as stunning channeled TP moves. It does seem to have diminishing returns. I didn't get enough experience tanking to really get a feel for it. It's quite possible that i was over-using it just because it looks so cool. And I've never played a game were i can just spam stuns all day long, so I was definitely using it when i didn't need to.

Often if i was losing hate on an add, i would bash it before it could get away, then Flash. But, really, just using Flash would serve the same purpose /shrug. The way I'm thinking of it now is as an ability that probably shouldn't be used except to interrupt channels or in specific cases like the boss adds in CB. So it looks like i'm pretty much agreeing with you after analyzing it some more. There were times for instance, when i was ready and able to stun a channel, but totally couldn't due to GCD. I think i'd rather it be off GCD and on 15-20 second cooldown.

incidentally, i completely, 100% ignored the enmity meter thing. I literally forgot all about that feature. Moving it towards the center of the screen is an idea i will probably be taking. And yeah, controller targeting feels much better than i remember it in the last beta. I did mess with targeting settings a bit, maybe that helped.



Edited, Aug 19th 2013 6:37pm by Llester
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#11 Aug 19 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Speaking from a Gladiator standpoint.

A) It's a balance of TP, MP, and Enmity. TP's gotten easier since incombat regen increased from 50 to 60 in open beta. MP isn't too bad with Riot blade once hate is established. Enmity's fairly easy if you read tooltips.

B) Going a bit into each of the melee classes to get their defensive cooldown (Foresight, Keen Flurry, and Featherfoot) makes damage intake incredibly smooth. The length of the durations combined with fairly short cooldowns made me just make a macro that lists them in order of Rampart > Keen Flurry > Foresight > Featherfoot and when one's down I it for the next cooldown. At most there's 15 seconds of just raw damage intake.

C) Bash is mostly pointless. The stun is on a hefty DR, the cost is astronomical, and it's not worth the GCD. You essentially waste 150 TP for an attack without any enmity bonuses on it. Unless it's an actual spell that's being casted that you know will hit ridiculously hard it's simply not worth using.

D) Provoke will make re-establishing hate a non-factor as it gives you the highest enmity value generated +1. It simply wasn't available in this push.

E) Savage Blade's and Shield Lob's Damagex3=Enmity and Rage of Halone's Damagex5=Enmity values will make future dungeons even more relaxed in terms of holding hate. Shield Oath for a double of all listed values of everything makes enmity even less stressful.

F) For some reason, and I can't figure out why, Conjurer's Stone generates a *massive* amount of threat compared to other damage classes. It's obscene.

G) Fight or Flight's really nice, especially when hate's established on a big pack or boss and you can switch to Riot for the extra damage.

H) You need a good weapon. When healing or dealing damage in dungeons you can almost tell, without examining someone, if they're using an outdated weapon or not when it comes to holding hate on AE packs. Flash's threat's based on WDMG, STR, and DTR, so slacking on weapons really hurts you against damage classes with appropriate weapons.

Llester wrote:
I like how basically GLD damage is pointless; its all about using enmity generating abilities. I may be putting more points into VIT than i had originally planned.


There's never any excuse to not push damage as a tank. Considering (with the only exception being Flash) your entire ability to hold hate is built around doing damage you're so wrong it's not even funny.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 6:42pm by Viertel
#12 Aug 19 2013 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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I'm glad you're liking GLA tanking, it is pretty fun. As far as cooldowns go, I usually just pop one or two every fight. There aren't really a lot of instances where you NEED them, but popping them at the start of the fight can help your healer out, especially if they like to aero up targets.
I macroed GLA's defense move with Marauders and then macroed Featherfoot with Keen Flurry. Those two groups have alike defenisve stats so they synergize well together. I also macro convalescence together with second wind so that i get a self heal whenever i need to use it to help out the healer.

Also, I use riot blade all the time, usually on the last mob of a group so that i can regen any flash MP I've used up. If you're in a fight where all you can do is flash such as the first fight in CBM then it is invaluable. once you unlock rage of halone the threat combo gets even more awesome. you can pull, flash, hit fast blade on your primary target then his savage blade and rage of halone on other targets so that no one can ever pull them off of you.

As far as shield bash goes, I think it's good where it is. It isn't very useful in the first few dungeons, but once you get to dungeons like Haukke Manor it becomes invaluable. When you know when a monster is going to do a TP move you want to stun it becomes a lot easier to save your GCD for it and sometimes you have to stun multiple mobs in a group. I'd rather have it be on the GCD than 30-60 seconds like Marauders.

Also, once you get past 20 and get a grand company weapon threat is a non issue. combine that with provoke and the only time you'll lose hate is when a DD blows up some target you haven't even touched yet.

I haven't tried playing with the mouse and keyboard yet other than typing and menu navigation. The controller is pretty straightforward for tanking once you get used to how it cycles through targets, much better than tabbing.
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#13 Aug 19 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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DamienSScott wrote:
Also, I use riot blade all the time, usually on the last mob of a group so that i can regen any flash MP I've used up. If you're in a fight where all you can do is flash such as the first fight in CBM then it is invaluable. once you unlock rage of halone the threat combo gets even more awesome. you can pull, flash, hit fast blade on your primary target then his savage blade and rage of halone on other targets so that no one can ever pull them off of you.


If you're talking about the first boss fight in Copperbell with all the adds then there's no point in even trying to hold hate. They're fodder mobs like from outside that hit healers for 15~ damage and die within a few seconds. Better yet, if you have a THM in the group just everyone stand on top of him and tell him/her to spam Blizzard II and wait for the Gigas to come out.

Trying to AE tank there is a wasted effort.

It's an encounter to teach new players that sometimes you aren't meant to tank everything and to know when it's not worth wasting resources over.


Edited, Aug 19th 2013 6:47pm by Viertel
#14 Aug 19 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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If I'm a tank there is always a point to holding threat.
If you don't bother with threat then all the adds go on to the healer. if you flash then they go on you until the DDs blow them up.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 7:27pm by DamienSScott
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#15 Aug 19 2013 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:
Often if i was losing hate on an add, i would bash it before it could get away, then Flash. But, really, just using Flash would serve the same purpose /shrug. The way I'm thinking of it now is as an ability that probably shouldn't be used except to interrupt channels or in specific cases like the boss adds in CB. So it looks like i'm pretty much agreeing with you after analyzing it some more. There were times for instance, when i was ready and able to stun a channel, but totally couldn't due to GCD. I think i'd rather it be off GCD and on 15-20 second cooldown.

I'm glad we agree! That's exactly why I'd like it off the GCD:

"I would love to stop that mob skill, but I just can't because I was stuck in GCD. Luckily my party can do that, oh wait...they're in GCD too. Oh well, I hope the CNJ can heal through this."
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