Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Arcanist - Not your typical pet job from FFXIFollow

#1 Aug 19 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
392 posts
OK, i thought i would make a post on this seeing how a good majority of people are calling for ARN to be nerfed.

For starters I am fully for ARN remaining the way it is. I do not feel that ARN is in anyway overpowered. I do feel however that ARN is being played completely wrong. Here's my two cents;

Most of us, myself included, couldn't wait to get ARN and relive our glory days of pet jobs from FFXI. In those days, SMN's pet was pretty much 'set it & forget it'. You had carby attack a mob and throw BP's out when you could. After some time with ARN this past weekend however, i find that ARN is nothing like this.

ARN is given a separate list of commands to control carby. Now, I bet that most of us just used the SIC command which gave carby free range on what he did. And I'd also be willing to bet that most ARN did the same then when it came to doing any dungeons. This was a huge problem when using the topaz (tank) carby as it would pull mobs off the tank. The problem wasn't with carby, he was doing what he is suppose to, draw alot of hate. But that became a problem when the ARN would allow carby to spam attacks by using the SIC command rather then the OBEY command. ARN requires alot more attention and detail to use properly then most jobs as the ARN is not only managing themself but their pet aswell. I think those of us who played SMN in FFXI need to rethink our play style to better suit ARN.

I think this will also be a similar problem with SMN and SCH if the pet is given a SIC command where they can spam moves.

Ok, there's my thought. What are you thoughts???

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 2:47pm by RyanSquires

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 2:49pm by RyanSquires
____________________________
"You are what you are on paper."
-
Avirex Idyll - Faerie Server
#2 Aug 19 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
Or they just need to use Emerald Carby, he's the dps pet with higher potencies. His drawback is no AoE and I think people like the idea of OMG BIG NUMBAS! So they let Topaz hit everything at once.

This falls back to the more basic problem with pugs... Rule #2: Focus fire. It's just under Rule #1: Do not stand in fire. And we all know people still don't obey Rule #1.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#3 Aug 19 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
392 posts
Using the Emerald carby does help, but i saw first hand that that can still be a problem. If the mob gets near carby, he will use drawback and throw the mob away, i had this happen just to watch the tank and DPS's go chasing after the mob, this also resulted in linking other mobs we did not want to fight at the time. The core problem still remains, do not use SIC, use OBEY and learn to manage your pet.

Not arguing w/ ya Anakte, just saying people need to manage their pet before they go screaming it needs to be nerf.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 2:55pm by RyanSquires
____________________________
"You are what you are on paper."
-
Avirex Idyll - Faerie Server
#4 Aug 19 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
220 posts
When I ran my first dungeon as the Arcanist I refused to be the guy who used only his Topaz Carbuncle after being frustrated by them during my runs while a Marauder and Lancer/Pugilist. Unfortunatly I got a Marauder who refused to tank I normally would have helped the player out on how to tank but I can't speak Japanese. So Topaz tank to the rescue. After leveling Arcanist I assume we are seeing so many Topaz in the early dungeons because they just recieved the spell for it at 15 and might think its an improved version rather than the tank/dps switch.
____________________________
#5 Aug 19 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
That's because the Carby mechanics are mostly taken from the BST job in FFXI, not Summoner. As a Lv99 BST, I instantly saw the connection. They ripped off BST, almost to the core. BST charmed pets will use their own abilities when you tell them to attack, but controlled pets(jugs) give the master control.
#6 Aug 19 2013 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,208 posts
My only real problem with them is that every time I would try to target a mob at a FATE, there would be 1,000 carbys at the FATE and I couldn't target a single mob because they kept getting in the way... and SE didn't think it would make sense to fix targeting before P4...

That and Airship Minions... If I target one more minion while doing a FATE I'm going to freak out!
____________________________
The Kraken Club - (Ultros FC)
Character Name: Meat Mithkabob
#7 Aug 19 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
392 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
That's because the Carby mechanics are mostly taken from the BST job in FFXI, not Summoner. As a Lv99 BST, I instantly saw the connection. They ripped off BST, almost to the core. BST charmed pets will use their own abilities when you tell them to attack, but controlled pets(jugs) give the master control.



Ya know something, got my BST to 75 and left 11 before the level cap and it didn't even dawn on me that ARN is pretty much a BST. So do you think ARN needs to be nerfed or do you think people need to learn to control their pets?
____________________________
"You are what you are on paper."
-
Avirex Idyll - Faerie Server
#8 Aug 19 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
**
589 posts
I'm going to play devils advocate and say I didn't know about the other pet bar until I switched to K/M. I also think playing pet jobs in other MMOs gives you a good idea of what you are saying. You can set it and forget it but then you miss out on the utility of pets. One other thing I would like to add. Carby pulling mobs off the tank isn't his fault. I used it purposely in a group at the request of our glad. He keep hate off it. I'm not going to say tanks that can't keep hate of a pet are ... ummm I'm just not going to say it!
#9 Aug 19 2013 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
725 posts
Hairspray wrote:
My only real problem with them is that every time I would try to target a mob at a FATE, there would be 1,000 carbys at the FATE and I couldn't target a single mob because they kept getting in the way... and SE didn't think it would make sense to fix targeting before P4...

That and Airship Minions... If I target one more minion while doing a FATE I'm going to freak out!


Wasn't that like eye popping to see so many people with their pets? I was floored. I had to go to quiet location and chain mobs.

Targeting, even macro targeting hasn't worked for me yet. I know they are still working on this issue, but, but it made Dungeons a bit harder. I thought there was going to be a mob list on the screen, but FIRST you have to target it, then it will remain on.

With all the improvements they made from p3 to p4, I'm confident that they are working on the issue.


____________________________
http://www.zam.com/Im/Image/242033

Name: Ghost Orchid - LEVEL 50 Bard, BLM, WHM, SMN Craft Level 7 Lucis, 6 4-star crafts: CUL, MIN, Wvr, Bsm, Gsm, Arm, Lth, Crp (Fishing and Alc at level 50)
World: Ultros
#10 Aug 19 2013 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
149 posts
Sort of a derailment, but you can change the filters for tab targetting to not pick minions like carbuncle.
#11 Aug 19 2013 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
RyanSquires wrote:


Ya know something, got my BST to 75 and left 11 before the level cap and it didn't even dawn on me that ARN is pretty much a BST. So do you think ARN needs to be nerfed or do you think people need to learn to control their pets?


Based on my experience so far, people need to control their pets better. They need to realize that ARN is a DPS role, not soloing in which they use their pet to keep them alive. I get the feeling some tanks are just disgruntled about the hate threshold and I can see the concern. I feel nerfing it would be a bad choice though. Because let's say SE scales the class properly to end game, an off tank would be a nice thing to have for that purpose. I'd like to see ARN protect the rear line. As of right now, if you're not maximizing damage on ARN, you're just killing slower and ruining the game for everyone in the party.
#12 Aug 19 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
I'm sure all the servers were filled, but you should have seen the Legacy server... pretty much EVERYONE went ACN. After I hit 20 and switched to MRD I went traveling around a bit, doing FATEs in Gridania and Uldah, and there were some that people just didn't go to. Unlike in LL where every FATE ended in a brief period because of the immense number of people slaughtering whatever.

And oh man The Drowning Wench was a veritable squirrel habitat the whole weekend.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#13 Aug 19 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,004 posts
i'm not sure ARC needs to ne nerfed, but people do need to get better at playing the class and learn how to control it properly. Topaz can have a good spot in a party for holding mobs back that the party will deal with later. Just pull a mob off o the side and tank it on the side. A summoner has full control on positioning and his pet should he choose to use it. Everything carby needs is on the pet hotbar.

As for the targeting during the FATE yeah, that needs a fix. I was thinking though if the players alrerady have control over this because in the menu there is an option to change your targeting filters and such, and i believe carby counts as "other". just switch the filter under "all" and uncheck "other". that way when you switch target it will never target carby. At least, this is how i think it can be done, if i'm not mistaken.
#14 Aug 19 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Maarg wrote:
Sort of a derailment, but you can change the filters for tab targetting to not pick minions like carbuncle.

Not true, as carbuncle is not a minion.
I have minions switched off, and still carby gets targeted like any other party member and/or NPC.
#15 Aug 19 2013 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
392 posts
Honestly, I was expecting more aggressive responses telling me I am wrong bla bla bla, but these are surprising. I fully agree w/ Key and i think this is exactly what needs to happen rather then ARN being nerfed.
____________________________
"You are what you are on paper."
-
Avirex Idyll - Faerie Server
#16 Aug 19 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
One of my friends pointed out that the ACN DoT access and damage is a bit much.

Bio: 40 Potency
Miasma: 35 Potency
Thunder (from THM): 35 Potency
Aero (from CNJ): 25 Potency

So you have an effective 135 Potency of damage occurring every second that you can keep up on something on top of Ruin when you aren't refreshing DoTs and Carby blasting stuff away. Or you can just start chain pulling by casting DoTs in succession. And I do have to agree that stuff just melts for ACN when I was leveling it.
#17 Aug 19 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
377 posts
Keysofgaruda wrote:
i'm not sure ARC needs to ne nerfed, but people do need to get better at playing the class and learn how to control it properly. Topaz can have a good spot in a party for holding mobs back that the party will deal with later. Just pull a mob off o the side and tank it on the side. A summoner has full control on positioning and his pet should he choose to use it. Everything carby needs is on the pet hotbar.

As for the targeting during the FATE yeah, that needs a fix. I was thinking though if the players alrerady have control over this because in the menu there is an option to change your targeting filters and such, and i believe carby counts as "other". just switch the filter under "all" and uncheck "other". that way when you switch target it will never target carby. At least, this is how i think it can be done, if i'm not mistaken.


If you are on the PS3 and you set your Hot XBar to toggle on and off, while it is toggled on you can use L1 and R1 to move between targets. I did this in all of the FATEs that I got in and never once did my targeting move to a friendly plus it greatly improved my performance in the FATEs which netted me more exp per than I had been getting.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 3:42pm by princessary
____________________________
What? Did you expect something witty?

The Kraken Club - FC on Ultros
Arylin Moonsong - Ultros
Mimiroo Underhill - Ultros
#18 Aug 19 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
**
589 posts
Ravashack wrote:
One of my friends pointed out that the ACN DoT access and damage is a bit much.

Bio: 40 Potency
Miasma: 35 Potency
Thunder (from THM): 35 Potency
Aero (from CNJ): 25 Potency

So you have an effective 135 Potency of damage occurring every second that you can keep up on something on top of Ruin when you aren't refreshing DoTs and Carby blasting stuff away. Or you can just start chain pulling by casting DoTs in succession. And I do have to agree that stuff just melts for ACN when I was leveling it.


Miasma isn't a DoT till level 46. By then the other classes have higher pot spells
#19 Aug 19 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
nonameoflevi wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
One of my friends pointed out that the ACN DoT access and damage is a bit much.

Bio: 40 Potency
Miasma: 35 Potency
Thunder (from THM): 35 Potency
Aero (from CNJ): 25 Potency

So you have an effective 135 Potency of damage occurring every second that you can keep up on something on top of Ruin when you aren't refreshing DoTs and Carby blasting stuff away. Or you can just start chain pulling by casting DoTs in succession. And I do have to agree that stuff just melts for ACN when I was leveling it.


Miasma isn't a DoT till level 46. By then the other classes have higher pot spells


...No, it's DEFINITELY a DoT at level 10. 46 is when you get Miasma II, and NO one has that yet.
#20 Aug 19 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*
51 posts
princessary wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
i'm not sure ARC needs to ne nerfed, but people do need to get better at playing the class and learn how to control it properly. Topaz can have a good spot in a party for holding mobs back that the party will deal with later. Just pull a mob off o the side and tank it on the side. A summoner has full control on positioning and his pet should he choose to use it. Everything carby needs is on the pet hotbar.

As for the targeting during the FATE yeah, that needs a fix. I was thinking though if the players alrerady have control over this because in the menu there is an option to change your targeting filters and such, and i believe carby counts as "other". just switch the filter under "all" and uncheck "other". that way when you switch target it will never target carby. At least, this is how i think it can be done, if i'm not mistaken.


If you are on the PS3 and you set your Hot XBar to toggle on and off, while it is toggled on you can use L1 and R1 to move between targets. I did this in all of the FATEs that I got in and never once did my targeting move to a friendly plus it greatly improved my performance in the FATEs which netted me more exp per than I had been getting.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 3:42pm by princessary



Did not know this. My xbar was on mixed. I was toggling away with my targeting. Got it to run smooth for me. This should work wonders. Can't wait to try it.
____________________________
Name: Huey Hiiirule
Server: Ultros
PSN: Link-2the-Past
#21 Aug 19 2013 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Ravashack wrote:
One of my friends pointed out that the ACN DoT access and damage is a bit much.

Bio: 40 Potency
Miasma: 35 Potency
Thunder (from THM): 35 Potency
Aero (from CNJ): 25 Potency

So you have an effective 135 Potency of damage occurring every second that you can keep up on something on top of Ruin when you aren't refreshing DoTs and Carby blasting stuff away. Or you can just start chain pulling by casting DoTs in succession. And I do have to agree that stuff just melts for ACN when I was leveling it.



You're mistaking this amount greately.

Primarily, Damage over Time Tics do not occur every second. They occur every 3 seconds as determined by global server timer that checks for Damage over Time. The tics for all Damage over time debuffs all trigger at once.

Enemies melt to Arcanist because they melt to everyone without exception. Parses have been done to compare and Arcanist is well in line with every other class right now, they actually fall behind if they're not using their debuffs or pets properly.

Claims without the research rarely do anyone justice. If anything should be nerfed on Arcanist it could very well be Topaz Carbunkles ease of hate generation, but we will have to see beyond level 20 before making any sort of judgment there.
#22 Aug 19 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
8 posts
I feel that the ACN damage output is more sustainable since it is a dot class which may make it seems stronger than it actually is. I think people will probably feel that ACN will be more balance at later levels because right now the mobs arent that tough. From the beginning arcanists are known for their strategies as assessors, so if you have to play smart as one to really make it shine.When the mobs start to hit harder, arcanists will have to start micromanaging their pets or both the arcanist and pet will die quickly.
#23 Aug 19 2013 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
**
972 posts
I dunno, it does seem OP to me.

My friend was easily able to solo FATEs which are supposed to be group activities, that were much higher level than him at the time. He loves the class and he's maining it and even he said they should nerf it pretty hard.
#24 Aug 19 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
149 posts
Fates scale to the number of people. My marauder can solo fates too. As to the fact that ACN can spam all abilities...that will only last until mama becomes an issue at higher levels. Spamming mp or tp abilities on CD is not supposed to be possible beyond the 20s.
#25 Aug 19 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
Hyrist wrote:
You're mistaking this amount greately.

Primarily, Damage over Time Tics do not occur every second. They occur every 3 seconds as determined by global server timer that checks for Damage over Time. The tics for all Damage over time debuffs all trigger at once.

Enemies melt to Arcanist because they melt to everyone without exception. Parses have been done to compare and Arcanist is well in line with every other class right now, they actually fall behind if they're not using their debuffs or pets properly.

Claims without the research rarely do anyone justice. If anything should be nerfed on Arcanist it could very well be Topaz Carbunkles ease of hate generation, but we will have to see beyond level 20 before making any sort of judgment there.

But I was in this group and this one dude was totally better than me so the class he was playing HAS TO BE better than mine because SE is dumb! Hooray logic!

Seriously though, where can I get myself one of these parsers anyway, I'd like to do some testing of my own next weekend.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#26 Aug 19 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
**
383 posts
It won't be nerfed. If you guys do some serious testing, you'll notice that ACN isn't really any better in instances than any other class; the damage output is really the same. Just because it has a tank pet that can help kill stronger mobs easily, doesn't mean that it'll have the same effect in pvp either. AI is always dumber than Human players.
____________________________
This is my sig; Enjoy.
FFXIV: Tom Carroll - Excalibur
FC: Sitzkireg (www.sitzkrieg.guildwork.com)
#27 Aug 19 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Hyrist wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
One of my friends pointed out that the ACN DoT access and damage is a bit much.

Bio: 40 Potency
Miasma: 35 Potency
Thunder (from THM): 35 Potency
Aero (from CNJ): 25 Potency

So you have an effective 135 Potency of damage occurring every second that you can keep up on something on top of Ruin when you aren't refreshing DoTs and Carby blasting stuff away. Or you can just start chain pulling by casting DoTs in succession. And I do have to agree that stuff just melts for ACN when I was leveling it.



You're mistaking this amount greately.

Primarily, Damage over Time Tics do not occur every second. They occur every 3 seconds as determined by global server timer that checks for Damage over Time. The tics for all Damage over time debuffs all trigger at once.

Enemies melt to Arcanist because they melt to everyone without exception. Parses have been done to compare and Arcanist is well in line with every other class right now, they actually fall behind if they're not using their debuffs or pets properly.

Claims without the research rarely do anyone justice. If anything should be nerfed on Arcanist it could very well be Topaz Carbunkles ease of hate generation, but we will have to see beyond level 20 before making any sort of judgment there.


Hmm, that's good to know. Thanks Hyrist. I was normally paying more attention to keeping DoTs up and HP filled than tracking DPS, so after beta when he claimed it was actually ticking every second, I couldn't refute it. (Unless someone's aware of any methods to retrieve combat logs after the fact?)
#28 Aug 19 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
So would you compare the Arcanists level of pet interaction to say the Puppetmaster from XI? That was my favorite job by FAR, (though when i played most considered it to be one of the worst classes) due to the managing of the pet and really having somewhat of a bond with the pet. I know I'm torn at the moment between Summoner and Dragoon (my second favorite from FFXI). I know the game is very different, but just curious as far as similarities.
#29 Aug 19 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
392 posts
From my experiences with ARN I would have to say the level of micro-managing required to play the class to it's fullest potential would be closer to PUP then either SMN or BST. I say this because ARN soloing is good, but if you really micro your pet's abilities then they really prove their worth. Their best moves aren't their actual attack moves but their simple orders such as PLACE STAY and OBEY. This simple yet very useful moves can be used to kit a mob away from the party members until they are ready to deal with it. Simply use OBEY to have your topaz attack a mob, then use PLACE and move him and the mob away from the party, then select STAY and your carby will stay there and let the mob beat on it, all the while, keeping it safely away from the party until you are ready to attack it.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 6:57pm by RyanSquires
____________________________
"You are what you are on paper."
-
Avirex Idyll - Faerie Server
#30 Aug 19 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Killua125 wrote:
I dunno, it does seem OP to me.

My friend was easily able to solo FATEs which are supposed to be group activities, that were much higher level than him at the time. He loves the class and he's maining it and even he said they should nerf it pretty hard.


This has nothing to do with Arcanist as the core class and everything with understanding the mechanics of the game.
Two things to keep in mind:

1. FATEs heavily vary in difficulty. The FATE he soloed likely adjusted its difficulty for having one participate, as FATE difficulty (enemy HP and defense) Scales based off of the number of Participants. If he was soloing, he was facing the FATE in it's absolute weakest form.

2. Arcanist has an automatic defense buffer: So long as it's carbuncle has hate, Arcanist can play the long-term game. Topaz Carbuncle can tank very well with an Arcanist healing it, all the while allowing Carbuncle and the low-MP cost DoTs to deal their damage.

This is not broken. This is not OP, this is by design. I can solo FATES on my Lancer with appropriate gear and skills, and even to some degree, depending on the FATE, without that said preparation, depending entirely on the context of the FATE.

Anyways, level 20's are always a bad impression on balance. Each class receives different significant spikes in their performance depending on what abilities they get. Thanks to Cross Classing Thunder and Aero, Damage wise Scholar spikes early - however, they also Plateau much earlier than other classes do.

People made the same observations of Thaumaturge due to it's near limitless MP pool giving it infinite cures and damage and incredibly kiting ability between subbed Stone and Scathe. Solo performance does not necessarily translate into Party Performance, which is the content that matters in this game.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 7:07pm by Hyrist
#31 Aug 19 2013 at 5:13 PM Rating: Good
**
336 posts
From the sounds of it, ARC is a lot like the Magician from Everquest Online Adventures which I really enjoyed playing. There were 4 pet types: Earth/Tank, Water/Healer, Wind/Caster, Fire/Melee
The pets would also change as you leveled; elementals when you begin to primals/gods at max
#32 Aug 19 2013 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,755 posts
Anakte wrote:


Seriously though, where can I get myself one of these parsers anyway, I'd like to do some testing of my own next weekend.


I'll be trying out XIV APP myself next weekend. If you haven't seen it yet it's now part of XIV ZAM's main navigation bar.
#33 Aug 19 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
20 posts
I find Arcanist to be really fun, my only issue with Emerald Carby is that I barely see him do anything because he is caster. On a side note, did anyone noticed how Ruin II completely makes Ruin I obsolete? Isn't that odd considering the "no skill left behind" idea? Once you get Ruin II there isn't a single reason to use it over Ruin, it is superior in every aspect.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 81 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (81)