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*** marriage in ARRFollow

#1 Aug 19 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I've made a couple posts about this before but I was wondering if you guys would post your thoughts.

Yoshida said that the marriage option would only be added for a straight couple, but a GM recently posted that they're open to feedback on the subject.

What do you think? Should two male or two female characters be allowed to marry on ARR? Before the beta ended there was a huge discussion going on in /shout on the subject, but I didn't get involved.

Edited, Aug 20th 2013 9:25am by Wint Lock Thread: Because reasons.
#2 Aug 19 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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My thoughts on it really is this, it shouldn't matter. Should a male playing a female character be allowed to marry a male character played by another male, does it really matter. I'm all for *** rights but a video game seems like an odd place to fight for them, and I always thought marriage in video games is kinda odd. Now Divorce is where the fun comes in, who gets the chocobo when people split up.
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#3 Aug 19 2013 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not really about *** rights, I just don't think people should get left out.

There will probably be a neat little ceremony and outfits and it seems weird to say... if a guy/his boyfriend or a girl/her girlfriend are playing, they won't be able to access that content. If that makes sense.
#4 Aug 19 2013 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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#5 Aug 19 2013 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Really like I said it shouldn't matter whether its hetero or **** marriage in a Final Fantasy game. I'd be slightly more worried about the cross species issues. That poor Lalafell who hooks up with a Roegadyn, how are they going to explain that to their parents not to mention do you really want to see what their kids would look like.
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#6 Aug 19 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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PyrielDD wrote:
Really like I said it shouldn't matter whether its hetero or **** marriage in a Final Fantasy game. I'd be slightly more worried about the cross species issues. That poor Lalafell who hooks up with a Roegadyn, how are they going to explain that to their parents not to mention do you really want to see what their kids would look like.

Tiny apes or giant babies?
#7 Aug 19 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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It was made legal yesterday here in New Zealand, make it legal in Eorzea too! :D
#8 Aug 19 2013 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
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Like in real life some ppl are going to be upset about this sensitive subject and others will be happy.
Its seriously a no win situation sadly
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#9 Aug 19 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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#10 Aug 19 2013 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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Wait, girls play video games?

WhatWouldSocratesDo. Stick that in your "Democracy". Or should I say Republic?
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#11 Aug 19 2013 at 7:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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*** people should be able to get married and be miserable like any one else :)
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#12 Aug 19 2013 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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Dude... you define troll... You should be proud of your work you do here....
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#13 Aug 19 2013 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have no problem with the way they handle either scenario, but I did see people saying that if they implement same *** marriage in the game that it would warrant an M rating in some countries, and would be completely banned in others. For as much as would like to say having *** marriage in this game promotes equality, it would disallow some to ever even get their hands on it. How is that equal?

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 10:01pm by supermegazeke
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#14Ehllfire, Posted: Aug 19 2013 at 7:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Absolutely not. This is a game children will be playing and Im sure many parents would not want their kids getting mixed signals about what is right and wrong. Plus many countries this game is going to be in (like Indonesia the worlds largest muslim country) would likely ban or put a mature rating (the us would slap a mature raing) on the game dooming its sales in those places, hurting SE. Also in Japan *** marriage and homosexuality are a no-no, so culturely speaking it would not fly there. The only ones asking for it are a small overly vocal minority from the US and EU. A large segment of the population of the world including me view it as aberrant behavior and shouldnt be encouraged. Id seriously doubt it will ever come to mmos.
#15 Aug 19 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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#16 Aug 19 2013 at 7:49 PM Rating: Default
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I don't think that post really needed to get deleted because it was a good example of people who are against the whole thing.

Anyway, I see it like this.

They're adding a marriage/relationship service, whether you like it or not. There are a lot of *** players. They are customers and they pay a subscription and it seems unfair if they don't get to access that content also.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 9:49pm by Killua125
#17 Aug 19 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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supermegazeke wrote:
I have no problem with the way they handle either scenario, but I did see people saying that if they implement same *** marriage in the game that it would warrant an M rating in some countries, and would be completely banned in others. For as much as would like to say having *** marriage in this game promotes equality, it would disallow some to never even get their hands on it. How is that equal?


If a game is outright banned due to same *** marriage in a virtual format where the closest animated /emote is blowing a kiss... those countries women have a lot more to be concerned about.
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#18 Aug 19 2013 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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If it bothers them that much, then they can exercise their rights as consumers and choose not to play. Simple.
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#19 Aug 19 2013 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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We've had this thread multiple times... I soooo can't wait until you get what my other "favorite" ZAM person got
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#20 Aug 19 2013 at 7:58 PM Rating: Default
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I guess only the pro side is allowed to speak up on this. I am saddened that my thoughtful post which did not violate any rules, wasn't rude or condensending, was deleted.
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#21 Aug 19 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really care, it's fantasy. Anything can happen. I guess restricting the marriage thing would make people feel left out, and a fantasy world is about embracing differences...So why not?

I have a boyfriend who plays a female character, and I play a female one. These are our views.

His View: "Why bring a religion stereotype into a video game?" "I thought it was supposed to be fun, not alienating people." "Now I can't marry my cute gf."

My view: I was going to say that marrying my boyfriend in game would seem silly. If we can't tie the knot in RL. (The wedding outfits are so cute though in game!) But, i agree, it shouldn't matter if someone of the same *** gets married in game. It's a game.
#22 Aug 19 2013 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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HarukaTenoh wrote:
I don't really care, it's fantasy. Anything can happen.


I want to marry my chocobo. ...Then divorce her and marry my unicorn. My rights! Smiley: lol
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Draining patience. drain vitality.
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#23 Aug 19 2013 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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supermegazeke wrote:
HarukaTenoh wrote:
I don't really care, it's fantasy. Anything can happen.


I want to marry my chocobo. ...Then divorce her and marry my unicorn. My rights! Smiley: lol


Nice lol. If we are going to get complex what about Polyandry and Polygyny. Heh those sociology classes are paying off today.
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#24 Aug 19 2013 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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As I've said before, XI had no qualms about a Galka marrying a little girl Tarutaru. Nothing else they allowed characters to do could be any worse than that, aside from letting a BST marry his sheep.
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#25 Aug 19 2013 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Even if I were against it in RL, I wouldn't even care about it in a game.

Most of the female characters you see running around are guys anyway. I don't even see how it would bother anyone in a game. How would they even know?

I just don't get the human race sometimes...
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#26 Aug 19 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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#27 Aug 19 2013 at 8:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I'd like to see it implemented. It seems like a fun thing for people to do. Whatever SE decides will undoubtedly ruffle a few feathers, but in my mind, it's an all or nothing situation. Either let everyone get married or get rid of the in-game marriage entirely. Sure, it's a nice thing to have. SE could probably even weave it into the lore so that they don't even have to call it marriage. But if it's gonna become a really controversial issue, I'm not sure it's worth having.
#28 Aug 19 2013 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
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We don't need the politics in the game. If they add it, they add it.
#29 Aug 19 2013 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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I run a psychology/neuro-sci based company and understand the actual science behind why this does matter. So I'm going to explain it without taking sides.
Disclaimer: I use science, not religion, to found these arguments. So if you believe in religion over science, this may offend you. And I'm sorry.

One of our greatest psychological needs is the need to belong. For those of you who believe in science, this is a result of evolution. Ancient humans and our ancestors who teamed up, survived better. This is nothing controversial or surprising. Imagine you get your nutrition/food intake from a mix of hunting and gathering. Well, if your working with others, one person can hunt while the other gathers (increased efficiency). Or if one person get injured (like breaking/spraining a leg) someone else can take over (long-term security). So, our genetics tell us to fit in and make sure we have friends/family/people that care about us.
So: We are genetically programed to belong.

What does this mean?
It means that not-belonging is one of the greatest tortures around.
Let's start out simple. Many psychologists argue that placing a human in solitary confinement is akin to torture. And they have science to back them up on this. You can find lots of the studies, explanations, etc here: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/07/solitary-confinement-2/ nicely summarized for your enjoyment.

Let's take the next step.
Being rejected can be considerably worse than solitary confinement.
While scientists have shown solitary confinement is horrible for you, rejection is worse.
When you feel like an outcast, like you don't belong, etc, it takes a heavy mental toll.
Again, this is science-based. Studies have proven with brain scans. This article explains some of the science: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/rejection.aspx
One study it discusses is a somewhat famous one now, done by Eisenberger, Williams, et al. They basically had people play a simple online game where a Frisbee was tossed back and forth, and measured their brain activity. When an individual was excluded from the game (ex. 3 ppl playing frisbee but the individual is never thrown the frisbee) the same parts of the brain associated with physical pain activated. Surprisingly, even when the person played with a computer and not other people and was aware, they would also activate the pain centers of the brain.
What does this mean?: Even when playing with a COMPUTER, if we are excluded by the COMPUTER, we still suffer from it.
In other words, we are very very very very hardwired to want to fit in.

Now let's move on to the issue at hand.

Why is *** marriage such a serious issue?
Well, it's due to all the reasons I mentioned above.
When a *** person is told they can't get married, it makes them feel different or outcast. Maybe not consciously, but in almost all cases it does.
The exact same way you would have felt as a child if some kids said they didn't want to play with you, or if you got bullied every day at school.
Now when there are organizations screaming all over the news about how *** people are immoral, and unnatural, it does take a toll, weather people realize it or not.

Online games are meant to be an escape from the real world. You can be whoever you want to be, lie about who you are, etc.
If allowing *** marriage took extra work (like extra programming), it may be legitimate to argue that it's just not a needed feature.
If the lore was against *** marriage then there may be some argument for excluding it.
But neither of these are the case. In eorzea the lore is pretty cool with gays (according to devs) due to the cultural diversity.
And the devs had to take an extra step to -prevent- *** marraige.

Put another way, the devs went -out of their way- to disallow *** marriage
And the devs called the subject controversial.

Now to religious people who don't believe in science, I fully understand the distaste towards gays. Religion can be a powerful thing and generally make people into jerks (ex. crusades, witch burning, terrorism, protesting at funerals of those who died in war). If someone brainwashes you into believing that you have to hurt others to get into heaven, it's not necessarily your fault. Our brains are designed to be gullible and fall for it (again for various social/evolutionary reasons). And one could even argue that the reasons as to why we experience religion (from a scientific perspective) are what make us uniquely intelligent and able to use tools and pass on knowledge.

However, to many who are ***, the issue is simple: not allowing gays to get married is acknowledging something is wrong with them.
And that is hurtful for the reasons i explained.
It's separating them from "normal" people and defining them as "different"
It's a form of psychological torture. And this is not an exaggeration.

Luckily there are many *** support networks and many people who are lbgtq are very strong individuals, able to deal with the discrimination.
But that doesn't make it right.

Many people of many religions play final fantasy
It should be a fairly secular game
And according to science, not only is it natural to be *** (found in many many animals), but *** couples have been proven to be no different than straight couples in raising children, or in being married. Science has proven that there are no negative side effects to *** marriage.

Personally, I see no difference between this issue, and racial rights, religious discrimination, genocide, or women's rights and suffrage.
I've seen people argue that it's completely different because being *** is a choice and the others aren't, but that's a myth. People are born ***. It's been proven many times with twin studies. And being *** is more natural than race (which is human-invented). The way we define race is not and has never been genetically accurate.

Is it fair to force a group to suffer because of a few people's extreme religious views and lack of belief in science?
That's up to you to decide.

But this is why the issue matters, and is important to many people. And for anyone who truly believes in equality, this issue should matter to you.

Note: There is also a huge argument as to how acknowledging *** marriage is wrong, promotes the idea in culture that gays are wrong. But I like to pretend that those playing final fantasy are smart enough to be individuals and not be swayed by the world around them (even though I know statistically it's not true).

Edit: If something is unclear, ask and I'll clarify it. If you don't believe in something, let me know and I'll try to find the studies on it (most are in journals and would require an account, which you probably have if you're in university). If you think something I said is untrue, feel free to call me out on it and explain why the science is wrong. If you have a religious argument, feel free to throw that out as well, because I can probably counter it based on the perspective of your religion (as I've studied most of the major ones). I'm very open minded, and I love talking about the brain :p






Edited, Aug 19th 2013 10:29pm by Azurymber
#30 Aug 19 2013 at 8:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ehllfire wrote:
I guess only the pro side is allowed to speak up on this. I am saddened that my thoughtful post which did not violate any rules, wasn't rude or condensending, was deleted.


I was helping you out. If you ever complain about being rated down I'll nuke every post on the subject however. You were waaaaaaaaaay sub-d before I nuked it, it's restored now.
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#31 Aug 19 2013 at 8:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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People are using every excuse in the book to prevent it, and 99% of it are lies. ffxiv is already banned in a few countries due to the multi god aspect, the undead, and the attire of women. These are the same countries who would ban ffxiv for *** marriage.

The rating would never change. Why? The sims....

The sims is a huge life simulator that has been doing same *** wedding since the first one. This never was bumped above a T rating. And you can have a bisexual sim see same *** make out and "woohoo" in bed. Again all under a teen rating.

Same *** parying have been in several rpg INCLUDING dragon age. Remember a few characters are infact bisexual.

Also the japanese are open minded about same *** things, look at yuri and yaoi.... that have an open minded wedding policy also. Pretty much if u keep to urself there isa no issue. Same *** couples caneven get married in japan.

back to the sims as i just recalled this, there never was any contraversy with the sims having same *** couplings.
#32 Aug 19 2013 at 8:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ehllfire wrote:
Killua125 wrote:
I've made a couple posts about this before but I was wondering if you guys would post your thoughts.

Yoshida said that the marriage option would only be added for a straight couple, but a GM recently posted that they're open to feedback on the subject.

What do you think? Should two male or two female characters be allowed to marry on ARR? Before the beta ended there was a huge discussion going on in /shout on the subject, but I didn't get involved.

Absolutely not. This is a game children will be playing and Im sure many parents would not want their kids getting mixed signals about what is right and wrong. Plus many countries this game is going to be in (like Indonesia the worlds largest muslim country) would likely ban or put a mature rating (the us would slap a mature raing) on the game dooming its sales in those places, hurting SE. Also in Japan *** marriage and homosexuality are a no-no, so culturely speaking it would not fly there. The only ones asking for it are a small overly vocal minority from the US and EU. A large segment of the population of the world including me view it as aberrant behavior and shouldnt be encouraged. Id seriously doubt it will ever come to mmos.

That huge shouting match in beta was pre-planned by by activist LGBT groups who are screaming and kicking trying to ruin SE's vision of the game.


Ehllfire wrote:
I guess only the pro side is allowed to speak up on this. I am saddened that my thoughtful post which did not violate any rules, wasn't rude or condensending, was deleted.


This post deserved to be deleted or karma bombed to oblivion. You say your post wasnt rude and condescending and yet in the opening line you speak of children getting mixed signals on what is right and wrong - what an incredibly bigoted comment. Being homosexual is not a matter of right or wrong it is a matter of biology and genetics. I am not *** and I found your post offensive.

Edit: removed a potentially inflamatory comment - two wrongs dont make a right, I just got a bit riled up.

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 11:09pm by HallieXIV
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#33 Aug 19 2013 at 8:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, that's why I nuked it. Enjoy it folks, do what you will, I'm not touching this thing with a 10' pole.
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#34 Aug 19 2013 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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Also, I think tolerance is a good lesson for kids. I don't think knowing that *** people exist is going to turn them ***. Smiley: oyvey

BUT a lot of people do think like him, so it didn't really need to get deleted. But Ehllfire, I think you're taking a virtual video game marriage too seriously.
#35 Aug 19 2013 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Heh. In Japan it's officially a no-no, but unofficially.... Japan single handedly made *** **** attractive to women.
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#36 Aug 19 2013 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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Killua125 wrote:
Also, I think tolerance is a good lesson for kids. I don't think knowing that *** people exist is going to turn them ***. Smiley: oyvey

BUT a lot of people do think like him, so it didn't really need to get deleted. But Ehllfire, I think you're taking a virtual video game marriage too seriously.


Killua - I rarely find myself agreeing with you on these boards but this deserves a rate up :-)
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#37 Aug 19 2013 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Azurymber wrote:
I run a psychology/neuro-sci based company and understand the actual science behind why this does matter. So I'm going to explain it without taking sides.
Disclaimer: I use science, not religion, to found these arguments. So if you believe in religion over science, this may offend you. And I'm sorry.

One of our greatest psychological needs is the need to belong. For those of you who believe in science, this is a result of evolution. Ancient humans and our ancestors who teamed up, survived better. This is nothing controversial or surprising. Imagine you get your nutrition/food intake from a mix of hunting and gathering. Well, if your working with others, one person can hunt while the other gathers (increased efficiency). Or if one person get injured (like breaking/spraining a leg) someone else can take over (long-term security). So, our genetics tell us to fit in and make sure we have friends/family/people that care about us.
So: We are genetically programed to belong.

What does this mean?
It means that not-belonging is one of the greatest tortures around.
Let's start out simple. Many psychologists argue that placing a human in solitary confinement is akin to torture. And they have science to back them up on this. You can find lots of the studies, explanations, etc here: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/07/solitary-confinement-2/ nicely summarized for your enjoyment.

Let's take the next step.
Being rejected can be considerably worse than solitary confinement.
While scientists have shown solitary confinement is horrible for you, rejection is worse.
When you feel like an outcast, like you don't belong, etc, it takes a heavy mental toll.
Again, this is science-based. Studies have proven with brain scans. This article explains some of the science: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/rejection.aspx
One study it discusses is a somewhat famous one now, done by Eisenberger, Williams, et al. They basically had people play a simple online game where a Frisbee was tossed back and forth, and measured their brain activity. When an individual was excluded from the game (ex. 3 ppl playing frisbee but the individual is never thrown the frisbee) the same parts of the brain associated with physical pain activated. Surprisingly, even when the person played with a computer and not other people and was aware, they would also activate the pain centers of the brain.
What does this mean?: Even when playing with a COMPUTER, if we are excluded by the COMPUTER, we still suffer from it.
In other words, we are very very very very hardwired to want to fit in.

Now let's move on to the issue at hand.

Why is *** marriage such a serious issue?
Well, it's due to all the reasons I mentioned above.
When a *** person is told they can't get married, it makes them feel different or outcast. Maybe not consciously, but in almost all cases it does.
The exact same way you would have felt as a child if some kids said they didn't want to play with you, or if you got bullied every day at school.
Now when there are organizations screaming all over the news about how *** people are immoral, and unnatural, it does take a toll, weather people realize it or not.

Online games are meant to be an escape from the real world. You can be whoever you want to be, lie about who you are, etc.
If allowing *** marriage took extra work (like extra programming), it may be legitimate to argue that it's just not a needed feature.
If the lore was against *** marriage then there may be some argument for excluding it.
But neither of these are the case. In eorzea the lore is pretty cool with gays (according to devs) due to the cultural diversity.
And the devs had to take an extra step to -prevent- *** marraige.

Put another way, the devs went -out of their way- to disallow *** marriage
And the devs called the subject controversial.

Now to religious people who don't believe in science, I fully understand the distaste towards gays. Religion can be a powerful thing and generally make people into jerks (ex. crusades, witch burning, terrorism, protesting at funerals of those who died in war). If someone brainwashes you into believing that you have to hurt others to get into heaven, it's not necessarily your fault. Our brains are designed to be gullible and fall for it (again for various social/evolutionary reasons). And one could even argue that the reasons as to why we experience religion (from a scientific perspective) are what make us uniquely intelligent and able to use tools and pass on knowledge.

However, to many who are ***, the issue is simple: not allowing gays to get married is acknowledging something is wrong with them.
And that is hurtful for the reasons i explained.
It's separating them from "normal" people and defining them as "different"
It's a form of psychological torture. And this is not an exaggeration.

Luckily there are many *** support networks and many people who are lbgtq are very strong individuals, able to deal with the discrimination.
But that doesn't make it right.

Many people of many religions play final fantasy
It should be a fairly secular game
And according to science, not only is it natural to be *** (found in many many animals), but *** couples have been proven to be no different than straight couples in raising children, or in being married. Science has proven that there are no negative side effects to *** marriage.

Personally, I see no difference between this issue, and racial rights, religious discrimination, genocide, or women's rights and suffrage.
I've seen people argue that it's completely different because being *** is a choice and the others aren't, but that's a myth. People are born ***. It's been proven many times with twin studies. And being *** is more natural than race (which is human-invented). The way we define race is not and has never been genetically accurate.

Is it fair to force a group to suffer because of a few people's extreme religious views and lack of belief in science?
That's up to you to decide.

But this is why the issue matters, and is important to many people. And for anyone who truly believes in equality, this issue should matter to you.

Note: There is also a huge argument as to how acknowledging *** marriage is wrong, promotes the idea in culture that gays are wrong. But I like to pretend that those playing final fantasy are smart enough to be individuals and not be swayed by the world around them (even though I know statistically it's not true).

Edit: If something is unclear, ask and I'll clarify it. If you don't believe in something, let me know and I'll try to find the studies on it (most are in journals and would require an account, which you probably have if you're in university). If you think something I said is untrue, feel free to call me out on it and explain why the science is wrong. If you have a religious argument, feel free to throw that out as well, because I can probably counter it based on the perspective of your religion (as I've studied most of the major ones). I'm very open minded, and I love talking about the brain :p






Edited, Aug 19th 2013 10:29pm by Azurymber



As being part of the community that is being discussed here, this is very very true.

My feelings are I deal with enough of this kind of stuff in real life, I play games to have fun an escape. I don't see the big deal at this point to exclude it since so many other games have allowed it (Fable and Skyrim off the top of my head). I feel if you are going to add a feature make is accessible to everyone or just don't add it. No one should feel like they aren't as privileged as someone else, especially in something like an mmo where its about bringing people together.
#38 Aug 19 2013 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:


Killua - I rarely find myself agreeing with you on these boards but this deserves a rate up :-)


First rule of Rate Club, we do not talk about Rate Club.....darn I broke the rule.
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#39 Aug 19 2013 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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Wow so I started reading this thread a couple glasses of whiskey too far in. Seriously though made my day.
#40 Aug 19 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Default
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wtf seriously?
#41 Aug 19 2013 at 9:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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actually in japan its under a don't ask don;t tell. since japan isn't considered a religios nation. They have buddism, shinto and christanity. Like i said you can have a *** wedding in japan I looked into it as i was curious. Infact there is an anime that actually touch based on same *** wedding.
#42 Aug 19 2013 at 9:54 PM Rating: Default
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PyrielDD wrote:

First rule of Rate Club, we do not talk about Rate Club.....darn I broke the rule.


And I rated you down in kind (but not because I didn't like your post...in fact I would not be content without my current post hitting AT LEAST default).

(Edit: Thanks guys. It hurts so good.) X(

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 9:43pm by fatpolomanjr
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#43 Aug 19 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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If youre fine with girl on girl then youre ok with same *** marriage.
#44 Aug 19 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't really care but I don't think SE will take this risk in the NA/EU market (or well may be they can create some viral news hype about it?)

Anyway, I doubt if they will do it.
#45 Aug 19 2013 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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ReyGaspar wrote:
I don't really care but I don't think SE will take this risk in the NA/EU market (or well may be they can create some viral news hype about it?)

Anyway, I doubt if they will do it.


Sadly I think you are right. But given something like Skyrim that had it, I don't remember reading anything about a fall out or a dent in their sales. I don't think (completely my personal opinion) that something like this actually causes people to not buy the game if they are against it. It is such a minor minor part of the FFXIV experience and wouldn't be forced on you in any way. It marrying someone of the same *** in game doesn't interest you, don't do it and keep on fishing instead :)

Edited, Aug 19th 2013 9:22pm by CrazyDemo
#46 Aug 19 2013 at 10:28 PM Rating: Excellent
I, for one, do not like the idea of a *** couple who loves each other ruining the sanctity of my fourth marriage!

(On the honest side, I'm still married to my first wife, just making the point Smiley: tongue)
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#47 Aug 19 2013 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Also, while I find it foolish that it is even an issue, games like Mass Effect and Skyrim had homosexual marriage / encounters in a single-player game. In ARR, it would require 2 ppl to actually commit to a non-legally binding relationship that could ruin the moral fabric of 'MURICA! Huge difference Smiley: lol
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#48 Aug 19 2013 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
I, for one, do not like the idea of a *** couple who loves each other ruining the sanctity of my fourth marriage!

(On the honest side, I'm still married to my first wife, just making the point Smiley: tongue)


Still married to your first AND your fourth... I don't know whether to hi five you or be jealous ;) j/k
#49 Aug 19 2013 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
CrazyDemo wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
I, for one, do not like the idea of a *** couple who loves each other ruining the sanctity of my fourth marriage!

(On the honest side, I'm still married to my first wife, just making the point Smiley: tongue)


Still married to your first AND your fourth... I don't know whether to hi five you or be jealous ;) j/k


Who says you can't do both?
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#50 Aug 19 2013 at 10:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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As someone who likes to RP, I generally see marriage systems in MMOs as a very half-assed pandering to the typically mocked RP subset of the community. As well, anyone who truly wishes to RP a marriage, be it with a man, woman, midget, sheep, or whatever are absolutely free to with no coded backing whatsoever. That in mind, I feel the topical ********* can be outright avoided by not implementing marriage mechanics and simply letting people do their thing. The moment any kind of perks are added to the system like unique gear or other game features, you're basically asking for that swarm of players who feel their "thing" isn't being represented fairly.

At best, I'd say give a means to sign/engrave gear with a name and in the future have a paid name change service (RL or gil) so someone could adopt a new last name if they really, really, really want to.
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#51 Aug 19 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Azurymber wrote:
I run a psychology/neuro-sci based company and understand the actual science behind why this does matter. So I'm going to explain it without taking sides.
Disclaimer: I use science, not religion, to found these arguments. So if you believe in religion over science, this may offend you. And I'm sorry.

One of our greatest psychological needs is the need to belong. For those of you who believe in science, this is a result of evolution. Ancient humans and our ancestors who teamed up, survived better. This is nothing controversial or surprising. Imagine you get your nutrition/food intake from a mix of hunting and gathering. Well, if your working with others, one person can hunt while the other gathers (increased efficiency). Or if one person get injured (like breaking/spraining a leg) someone else can take over (long-term security). So, our genetics tell us to fit in and make sure we have friends/family/people that care about us.
So: We are genetically programed to belong.

What does this mean?
It means that not-belonging is one of the greatest tortures around.
Let's start out simple. Many psychologists argue that placing a human in solitary confinement is akin to torture. And they have science to back them up on this. You can find lots of the studies, explanations, etc here: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/07/solitary-confinement-2/ nicely summarized for your enjoyment.

Let's take the next step.
Being rejected can be considerably worse than solitary confinement.
While scientists have shown solitary confinement is horrible for you, rejection is worse.
When you feel like an outcast, like you don't belong, etc, it takes a heavy mental toll.
Again, this is science-based. Studies have proven with brain scans. This article explains some of the science: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/rejection.aspx
One study it discusses is a somewhat famous one now, done by Eisenberger, Williams, et al. They basically had people play a simple online game where a Frisbee was tossed back and forth, and measured their brain activity. When an individual was excluded from the game (ex. 3 ppl playing frisbee but the individual is never thrown the frisbee) the same parts of the brain associated with physical pain activated. Surprisingly, even when the person played with a computer and not other people and was aware, they would also activate the pain centers of the brain.
What does this mean?: Even when playing with a COMPUTER, if we are excluded by the COMPUTER, we still suffer from it.
In other words, we are very very very very hardwired to want to fit in.

Now let's move on to the issue at hand.

Why is *** marriage such a serious issue?
Well, it's due to all the reasons I mentioned above.
When a *** person is told they can't get married, it makes them feel different or outcast. Maybe not consciously, but in almost all cases it does.
The exact same way you would have felt as a child if some kids said they didn't want to play with you, or if you got bullied every day at school.
Now when there are organizations screaming all over the news about how *** people are immoral, and unnatural, it does take a toll, weather people realize it or not.

Online games are meant to be an escape from the real world. You can be whoever you want to be, lie about who you are, etc.
If allowing *** marriage took extra work (like extra programming), it may be legitimate to argue that it's just not a needed feature.
If the lore was against *** marriage then there may be some argument for excluding it.
But neither of these are the case. In eorzea the lore is pretty cool with gays (according to devs) due to the cultural diversity.
And the devs had to take an extra step to -prevent- *** marraige.

Put another way, the devs went -out of their way- to disallow *** marriage
And the devs called the subject controversial.

Now to religious people who don't believe in science, I fully understand the distaste towards gays. Religion can be a powerful thing and generally make people into jerks (ex. crusades, witch burning, terrorism, protesting at funerals of those who died in war). If someone brainwashes you into believing that you have to hurt others to get into heaven, it's not necessarily your fault. Our brains are designed to be gullible and fall for it (again for various social/evolutionary reasons). And one could even argue that the reasons as to why we experience religion (from a scientific perspective) are what make us uniquely intelligent and able to use tools and pass on knowledge.

However, to many who are ***, the issue is simple: not allowing gays to get married is acknowledging something is wrong with them.
And that is hurtful for the reasons i explained.
It's separating them from "normal" people and defining them as "different"
It's a form of psychological torture. And this is not an exaggeration.

Luckily there are many *** support networks and many people who are lbgtq are very strong individuals, able to deal with the discrimination.
But that doesn't make it right.

Many people of many religions play final fantasy
It should be a fairly secular game
And according to science, not only is it natural to be *** (found in many many animals), but *** couples have been proven to be no different than straight couples in raising children, or in being married. Science has proven that there are no negative side effects to *** marriage.

Personally, I see no difference between this issue, and racial rights, religious discrimination, genocide, or women's rights and suffrage.
I've seen people argue that it's completely different because being *** is a choice and the others aren't, but that's a myth. People are born ***. It's been proven many times with twin studies. And being *** is more natural than race (which is human-invented). The way we define race is not and has never been genetically accurate.

Is it fair to force a group to suffer because of a few people's extreme religious views and lack of belief in science?
That's up to you to decide.

But this is why the issue matters, and is important to many people. And for anyone who truly believes in equality, this issue should matter to you.

Note: There is also a huge argument as to how acknowledging *** marriage is wrong, promotes the idea in culture that gays are wrong. But I like to pretend that those playing final fantasy are smart enough to be individuals and not be swayed by the world around them (even though I know statistically it's not true).

Edit: If something is unclear, ask and I'll clarify it. If you don't believe in something, let me know and I'll try to find the studies on it (most are in journals and would require an account, which you probably have if you're in university). If you think something I said is untrue, feel free to call me out on it and explain why the science is wrong. If you have a religious argument, feel free to throw that out as well, because I can probably counter it based on the perspective of your religion (as I've studied most of the major ones). I'm very open minded, and I love talking about the brain :p






Edited, Aug 19th 2013 10:29pm by Azurymber


"Now to religious people who don't believe in science, I fully understand the distaste towards gays. Religion can be a powerful thing and generally make people into jerks (ex. crusades, witch burning, terrorism, protesting at funerals of those who died in war). If someone brainwashes you into believing that you have to hurt others to get into heaven, it's not necessarily your fault. Our brains are designed to be gullible and fall for it (again for various social/evolutionary reasons). And one could even argue that the reasons as to why we experience religion (from a scientific perspective) are what make us uniquely intelligent and able to use tools and pass on knowledge."


I am blown away with this part of your comment, really so all religious our brainwashed sheep? They don't believe in science? The looks of it (if you are American) you don't like our freedom of speech ether, it is their right to protest and speak their mind, weather they protest a funeral, church or a chick-fil-a it is their right period. This part of your comment just screams "your rights end where my feelings begin." Please provide scientific sources that back up your claims, otherwise stop projecting.
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