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#1 Aug 21 2013 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/110764-Training-Dummies?p=1340653#post1340653

LMAO This wasn't supposed to turn into a Parsing thread. I'm thinking it was the Subject Heading that mislead people into thinking the subject was about dumb players.

Training Dummies

As some of you may have noticed in your travels, we've set up training dummies around the world to aid you with your battle tactics!

We’ve heard of some players having issues with not being able to change classes because the dummy still has enmity (If I couldn't move and fight back I'd hate you too…). As this enmity will not disappear over time, just gain some distance from it (don't worry, it's a dummy it can't chase you!) and you'll be able to change classes no problemo!

One other thing to note is that these dummies know when you are attacking from the front, side, and rear, so you can test out all your combo effects on these guys as well.


So that's what they're there for. Sic Em Carby!!

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 1:05pm by Grandmomma
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#2 Aug 21 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.
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#3 Aug 21 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Neat, I can use them for macro testing.
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#4 Aug 21 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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"If i couldn't move and fight back i'd hate you too..."

hah!
#5 Aug 21 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Not saying I don't approve of the things that have been tweaked and added... (dummies, new gathering abilities, less hits per node) but why are we not hard at work on the server side to make things run oh so smooth on there end first... then add such things?
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#6 Aug 21 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.


Cough XIV-App Cough
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#7 Aug 21 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.


Cough XIV-App Cough


Oh right!
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#8 Aug 21 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.

*cough* parsers are for weenies *cough*
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#9 Aug 21 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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Ehllfire wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.

*cough* parsers are for weenies *cough*


Parsers are necessary for maximizing your dps. If you don't have numbers to prove your rotations, then you're just guessing. In raids you need it to show who isn't pulling their weight and dragging the group down, causing wipes. That weenie won't have a raid group anymore :(
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#10Ehllfire, Posted: Aug 21 2013 at 4:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Only bads need parsers, the good players learn there rotations without crutches.
#11 Aug 21 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Ehllfire wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Ehllfire wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.

*cough* parsers are for weenies *cough*


Parsers are necessary for maximizing your dps. If you don't have numbers to prove your rotations, then you're just guessing. In raids you need it to show who isn't pulling their weight and dragging the group down, causing wipes. That weenie won't have a raid group anymore :(

Only bads need parsers, the good players learn there rotations without crutches.


You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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#12Ehllfire, Posted: Aug 21 2013 at 4:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I dont need a program to tell me what my eyes do. Parsers ARE a crutch for bads.
#13 Aug 21 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Since when have your eyes been able to log damage information for an entire fight and compute how much damage you're doing per second at any given time with all buffs up or without buffs, while also computing how much the rest of the group is doing all within a millisecond of it occurring. You're talking nonsense.
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#14 Aug 21 2013 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Raids are about team play, if you fail dps check then the dps work it out civilly, not someone like you yelling OMG you suck your dps is 2.3/sec lower than everyone else, you fail go kill yourself. and never come back. Same for healing and tanking. I pity whatever fc takes you long.
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#15 Aug 21 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Ehllfire wrote:
Raids are about team play, if you fail dps check then the dps work it out civilly, not someone like you yelling OMG you suck your dps is 2.3/sec lower than everyone else, you fail go kill yourself. and never come back. Same for healing and tanking. I pity whatever fc takes you long.


I've never told anyone that they fail and they should end their life. A parser is a tool that should be used. Not all fights are about strategy. Some have enrage timers that need to be beat in order to win. If someone is lagging behind in dps, it's necessary to tell them to improve or replace them. You're making a lot of assumptions. If it were a team drag race for example, you would be able to see (with your eyes) the car that isn't keeping up and dragging the over all 1/4 mile time average down. You can't see that with your eyes in a boss fight. Addons like recount give you a visual of the problem so that the guy in the stock civic can do what is necessary to keep up with the team and win the race.

Your argument still in no way says anything about parsers being a "crutch". You're only saying that it leads to elitism. Elitism is an attitude, governed by someone's personality, not what addons they use to streamline their performance.

*I'd also like to point out that in a community like FF's, a lot of people will be raiding with their friends and guild mates. In that case, your comrades will help you improve your damage/healing/mitigation to ensure the success of the group. If they're kicking you out of the group and calling you names, you need a new group of people to play with. It's happened to me many times throughout the years, you just deal with it and fix the problem.

Edited, Aug 21st 2013 7:11pm by Transmigration
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#16 Aug 21 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mmoderator wrote:
Not saying I don't approve of the things that have been tweaked and added... (dummies, new gathering abilities, less hits per node) but why are we not hard at work on the server side to make things run oh so smooth on there end first... then add such things?


You are hitting on a common misguided thought process behind game development. Game developers are in teams and specialize on certain aspects of the game. Developers working on dummies and skills and models have nothing to do with the network administrators. They can't simply shift a resource that does character modelling to debug a server database issue.
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#17 Aug 21 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Parsers are necessary for maximizing your dps. If you don't have numbers to prove your rotations, then you're just guessing. In raids you need it to show who isn't pulling their weight and dragging the group down, causing wipes. That weenie won't have a raid group anymore :(


Transmigration wrote:
Ehllfire wrote:
Raids are about team play, if you fail dps check then the dps work it out civilly, not someone like you yelling OMG you suck your dps is 2.3/sec lower than everyone else, you fail go kill yourself. and never come back. Same for healing and tanking. I pity whatever fc takes you long.


I've never told anyone that they fail and they should end their life. A parser is a tool that should be used. Not all fights are about strategy. Some have enrage timers that need to be beat in order to win. If someone is lagging behind in dps, it's necessary to tell them to improve or replace them. You're making a lot of assumptions. If it were a team drag race for example, you would be able to see (with your eyes) the car that isn't keeping up and dragging the over all 1/4 mile time average down. You can't see that with your eyes in a boss fight. Addons like recount give you a visual of the problem so that the guy in the stock civic can do what is necessary to keep up with the team and win the race.

Your argument still in no way says anything about parsers being a "crutch". You're only saying that it leads to elitism. Elitism is an attitude, governed by someone's personality, not what addons they use to streamline their performance.


Trans, I agree with everything you are saying except the bolded parts. It's exactly what I don't like about parsers. It ends up singling people out and basically saying "improve, or you're gone." Yes, there are battles where it's a DPS race and you need to have everyone working efficiently, and yes that's what a parser is good at determining. But rather than giving the lowest player an ultimatum to improve or be replaced, I'd much rather someone take the time to mentor that person, help them understand their rotation, and show them the best ways to increase their DPS. Sometimes players really need to learn by example, not learn by fear of being booted for someone better. That absolutely breeds elitism.

I have a feeling that it isn't what you meant to imply with your posts, but it really came off like the lowest members are expendable in order to achieve goals, and I really hate that mentality in a group. As long as you are clearing the content, a parser should be a self-evaluation tool. If you aren't clearing content, and it's actually due to the DPS being too low, then it needs to be evaluated and the lowest members need to be given a helping hand, not a kick out the door.

Ehllfire, if you honestly don't see the value and benefit of a parser, you really don't understand how an MMO works. Regardless of what you think your eyes are seeing, you will never full realize your potential until you can compare different abilities with actual numbers, determine whether or not a DoT is worth using, determine when the ideal time to use certain buffs/debuffs is, etc. All of these things are easily identified by parsing, whereas just using the eye test can often times be misleading due to not paying close enough attention, hidden variables, or just not getting a large enough sample size of actual statistical data.

Sorry for the long-winded post, parsers tend to be a touchy subject for me.
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#18 Aug 21 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Parsers are good. You can maximize your dps, whats wrong with that? Also if it's known that xx boss needs xx dps per minute or whatever to even kill it, and you can see your group is not pulling that, then you can save everyone time and gil.
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#19 Aug 21 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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I completely agree that players should be coached and helped instead of being tossed aside. I know how that feels, and it sucks. I'm sorry if it came out that way.

Here is why I started believing in the use of parsers:
Back when FFXI launched I had two favorite jobs. Monk and Dragoon. It was **** finding a group sometimes.. know why? Because people parsed with their eyeballs and didn't see my hits adding up to those of a Dark Knight or other heavy hitting jobs. Then one day some guys started computing the DPS (they called it DoT back then, which was kinda weird..). They showed the players that Monks hit much faster and their damage often added up to much more than a DK's in an xp fight. They showed that the Dragoon's wyvern balanced their slow hitting speed and put them on par as well. All of the sudden people were seeking out my job for groups! Without people like Pathfinder (old math guy from FFXI), Monks wouldn't have seen the light of day (literally, they'd be stuck in KRT all the time Smiley: lol ).

So although parsers and the like can lead to nasty people being nastier, I think the benefits outweigh the downside. Just my opinion.

*Lest us forget, most FFXI players did not use parsers, and yet many jobs were benched in order to hit merrit chain 100+ etc. Elitism and out casting is inevitable. At least with a parser, you can prove your worth to people to gain a spot. Anyway that's all, I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers.

Edited, Aug 21st 2013 7:29pm by Transmigration
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#20 Aug 21 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
I completely agree that players should be coached and helped instead of being tossed aside. I know how that feels, and it sucks. I'm sorry if it came out that way.

Here is why I started believing in the use of parsers:
Back when FFXI launched I had two favorite jobs. Monk and Dragoon. It was **** finding a group sometimes.. know why? Because people parsed with their eyeballs and didn't see my hits adding up to those of a Dark Knight or other heavy hitting jobs. Then one day some guys started computing the DPS (they called it DoT back then, which was kinda weird..). They showed the players that Monks hit much faster and their damage often added up to much more than a DK's in an xp fight. They showed that the Dragoon's wyvern balanced their slow hitting speed and put them on par as well. All of the sudden people were seeking out my job for groups! Without people like Pathfinder (old math guy from FFXI), Monks wouldn't have seen the light of day (literally, they'd be stuck in KRT all the time Smiley: lol ).

So although parsers and the like can lead to nasty people being nastier, I think the benefits outweigh the downside. Just my opinion.


I completely agree with you here, and I figured you weren't intentionally trying to breed that sort of "kick em to the curb" mentality, I think it's just because you were actively debating against someone so adamantly opposed to parsers that it came off that way a bit. FFXI is when I started using parsers, for almost the exact same reason. My main was a thf, and everone always said they didn't need me after 60 because other jobs hit harder and could SATA. Then I'd show them the parse at the end of the fight, where I actually did just as much melee damage as drks, sams, etc because of my attack speed and using attack food, and WS'd twice as often due to much faster TP gain and being able to split up SA and TA. Course, I also had sam and war leveled, and my war was geared to the teeth so I couldn't really compete with it on thf, but against your average to above average geared players I'd easily hold my own.

I actually love using a parser. I almost always parse in games to figure out what I can be doing better. But like I said, I use it more as a self-evaluation tool and would never make it a requirement for anyone else unless it became clear that we weren't beating content specifically because of a lack of DPS. Being able to see everyone elses damage often does lead to elitism and epeen wagging, as unfortunate as that is. It's why I really disliked recount in WoW.
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#21 Aug 21 2013 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ehllfire wrote:
Raids are about team play, if you fail dps check then the dps work it out civilly, not someone like you yelling OMG you suck your dps is 2.3/sec lower than everyone else, you fail go kill yourself. and never come back. Same for healing and tanking. I pity whatever fc takes you long.


I gotta admit, I agree with you in essence, but not in tone. If you use a DPS parser to tinker with your own rotation, then more power to you. I, for one, don't really care if I squeeze out that last 5 dps for the fight as long as the mob dies before me or my group. If it doesn't I try something different. Never needed a parser, never will use one. There aren't that many skills and rotations at this point to warrant it. Now if you are using a parser to judge other people... well that is at its base, elitism. You are judging everyone else by some standard and calling out weak links. If the person is not standing around roasting marshmellows in the fire or off AFK in the zone picking daisies and they are actively engaging the enemy and trying, then who am I to go telling them how to play their game? If you wipe to the boss, try something different. Wipe again, then discuss as a group what else to try. In a raid, it is a team effort and as long as the team is trying, some people will make up for others at different times.

Just my opinion on the subject. I am, nor ever was, some hardcore numbers junkie who needed to justify my game enjoyment with some boss trophy list or crazy dps avg numbers or BiS gear. I do enough number and data crunching at work, don't need it in a game I play for enjoyment. Some people dig that, and good on them - but they aren't my crowd and I'll have just as much fun with a group of people like me wiping on a boss a few times and figuring things out tactics-wise than playing the numbers game. I'd venture to say, changing tactics could very well be akin to having a higher dps rotation in the end, but I don't need a parser to get there. To each their own though. As long as you do right by you and have a good time, then that is what it is about along with finding others like-minded.
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#22 Aug 21 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do think parsers can provide a limited analysis that can improve certain techniques and strategies.

But they are limited and overreliance can actually produce a flawed picture of the value of your performance, so they must be used with care.

For one thing, they can only track what gets logged. If the server never reports the damage (e.g. Casting Drain at full health in FFXI), then you are doing better than the parser will indicate. It may also attribute good teamwork to only player who got a damage bonus thanks to the efforts of others. If you just look at raw damage as being "good" you might actually discourage people from assisting their team in doing greater damage just so their personal damage numbers don't suffer. And not every benefit deals damage. A well timed stun could help bring a mob down faster even though you did no damage but doing so was far more valuable than an extra swing.

So definitely use parsers to help, but remember they aren't a panacea for all damage dealing woes. There are limits to what they can reveal so don't let your teamwork suffer for it.
#23 Aug 21 2013 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
I do think parsers can provide a limited analysis that can improve certain techniques and strategies.

But they are limited and overreliance can actually produce a flawed picture of the value of your performance, so they must be used with care.

For one thing, they can only track what gets logged. If the server never reports the damage (e.g. Casting Drain at full health in FFXI), then you are doing better than the parser will indicate. It may also attribute good teamwork to only player who got a damage bonus thanks to the efforts of others. If you just look at raw damage as being "good" you might actually discourage people from assisting their team in doing greater damage just so their personal damage numbers don't suffer. And not every benefit deals damage. A well timed stun could help bring a mob down faster even though you did no damage but doing so was far more valuable than an extra swing.

So definitely use parsers to help, but remember they aren't a panacea for all damage dealing woes. There are limits to what they can reveal so don't let your teamwork suffer for it.


Pretty much this. It's ultimately the same in actual team sports as well. Sabremetrics, moneyball, whatever you want to call it, you still need to factor in the intangibles of a situation. Parsing numbers and crunching damage totals can only go so far until you see that some people just panic the eff out when they are in a hairy situation against a certain boss that has a special means to be fought, or has a plethora of minions, or some other mechanic that can't be judged solely based off of the numbers.
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#24 Aug 21 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah I like parsers for my own meta-game and will probably just use it for my own curiosity.

But if I'm in a hardcore group (like I'll accidentally find myself in one drunken night) and they tell me I need to parse, then I probably would say see you guys later.

---

I used parsers for FFXI just to see what I DMG I needed to maintain for NIN tanking, but after a while it was up to the DDs in the group not to go crazy. I probably wasn't the most optimal tank, but I did well.

I hope FFXIV leans more towards a community that doesn't need to use parsers to beat content, but rather gives the choice to hardcore players that it's up to them if they, say, want to beat content faster, or beat Hard(er) Mode content.
#25 Aug 21 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
This is exactly what puts me off about playing, I don't really want another job, I have one and a very stressful one too. The last thing I want to do is to come home to relax and play the game only to find my **** is pinned to the wall for not quite pulling my weight. I envisioned more of a casual and fun gaming experience, thank goodness there is room for non-hardcore players in the ls/fc because that's the level I am comfortable playing with.

However, if that's what floats your boat, then more power to you.
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#26 Aug 21 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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purethulium wrote:
Mmoderator wrote:
Not saying I don't approve of the things that have been tweaked and added... (dummies, new gathering abilities, less hits per node) but why are we not hard at work on the server side to make things run oh so smooth on there end first... then add such things?


You are hitting on a common misguided thought process behind game development. Game developers are in teams and specialize on certain aspects of the game. Developers working on dummies and skills and models have nothing to do with the network administrators. They can't simply shift a resource that does character modelling to debug a server database issue.


Meh... I should have known this from reading some of the Live Letters and him stating what team was doing what at the time. I spoke before thinking in a rage because of some BS on my SE account. ;( go ahead kick me in the ****! I deserve it...
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#27 Aug 21 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
This is exactly what puts me off about playing, I don't really want another job, I have one and a very stressful one too. The last thing I want to do is to come home to relax and play the game only to find my **** is pinned to the wall for not quite pulling my weight. I envisioned more of a casual and fun gaming experience, thank goodness there is room for non-hardcore players in the ls/fc because that's the level I am comfortable playing with.

However, if that's what floats your boat, then more power to you.


If I have any say in it, the LS will never require parsing for it's members. As I said, parsing should be almost exclusively a self-evaluation tool. If you want to use it for personal gain, go for it. If everyone in a group wants to use it, cool. The only time I could ever see requiring a parse is if we just repeatedly keep failing the same content for an extended period, and the only thing that could be causing it would be a lack of DPS, and in that case it would be used as a means of finding out who could use some help in improving their rotation or else possibly swapping roles with others to accomodate the group and advance. I will never be a part of a group that excludes players because they "aren't good enough". I'm honestly past that phase in my life and just looking to have fun in games with a group of like-minded people.
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#28 Aug 21 2013 at 9:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
This is exactly what puts me off about playing, I don't really want another job, I have one and a very stressful one too. The last thing I want to do is to come home to relax and play the game only to find my **** is pinned to the wall for not quite pulling my weight. I envisioned more of a casual and fun gaming experience, thank goodness there is room for non-hardcore players in the ls/fc because that's the level I am comfortable playing with.

However, if that's what floats your boat, then more power to you.

Hi, Peter. What's happening? We need to talk about your DPS reports. Yeah. Did you get that memo? It's just we're going with this new suggested rotation for maximum DPS now. So if you could go ahead and try to remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right!
#29 Aug 21 2013 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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Wouldn't parsers in FFXIV really only be useful to monks/dragoons due to combos? I see arcanist/summoner throw dots up and use other attack skills on CD and thm/blm doing fire/ice rotation with thunder(refresh). Mind you it's just a guess as I haven't played thm/blm or arc/brd.
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#30 Aug 21 2013 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Played a warrior in Rift and never used a parser. I got into a dungeon group with a guy who had one and come to find out I had been whooping *** without it all that time. It was nice to know I was doing well but I certainly didn't need it.

Not to mention a large amount of the player base, including myself, will be playing on PS3 without any access to those kinds of programs.

Edited, Aug 21st 2013 8:31pm by LebargeX
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#31 Aug 21 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
This is exactly what puts me off about playing, I don't really want another job, I have one and a very stressful one too. The last thing I want to do is to come home to relax and play the game only to find my **** is pinned to the wall for not quite pulling my weight. I envisioned more of a casual and fun gaming experience, thank goodness there is room for non-hardcore players in the ls/fc because that's the level I am comfortable playing with.

However, if that's what floats your boat, then more power to you.

Hi, Peter. What's happening? We need to talk about your DPS reports. Yeah. Did you get that memo? It's just we're going with this new suggested rotation for maximum DPS now. So if you could go ahead and try to remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right!

Oh, and one more thing. We're going to need you to go ahead and raid with the Sunday group as well, mkay? Great.
#32 Aug 21 2013 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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SuikodenXXX wrote:
Wouldn't parsers in FFXIV really only be useful to monks/dragoons due to combos? I see arcanist/summoner throw dots up and use other attack skills on CD and thm/blm doing fire/ice rotation with thunder(refresh). Mind you it's just a guess as I haven't played thm/blm or arc/brd.


Not at all. Parsing is useful for all sorts of things.

Primarily of course, it's used to measure damage per second. But when you dig a little further down, you can also get all sorts of data about how your abilities work.

For instance: How much DID my aoe heal do? On three targets? On five? Healing per cast time is a useful stat for a healer to know. How much uptime did I have on Greased Lightning? How efficiently did I use my cooldowns? And anyone who thinks tank dps doesn't matter is nuts.

When you're trying to make raid bosses fall down, all that crap's important.
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#33 Aug 21 2013 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Ehllfire wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Ehllfire wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.

*cough* parsers are for weenies *cough*


Parsers are necessary for maximizing your dps. If you don't have numbers to prove your rotations, then you're just guessing. In raids you need it to show who isn't pulling their weight and dragging the group down, causing wipes. That weenie won't have a raid group anymore :(

Only bads need parsers, the good players learn there rotations without crutches.


In my experience, the people who just "know" that they're doing it right without empirical proof are usually the ones who are doing it the very worst.

I don't know what the level of parsing eventually became in FF11, but in WoW, Swtor, etc, the people doing the most dps in raids and dungeons were those who used parse analysis to make reality based improvements to their gameplay.

Maybe you're a special snowflake who plays like boss instinctively, but "only bads use parsing" isn't even an arguable point of view. It's just categorically wrong.
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#34 Aug 21 2013 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
SuikodenXXX wrote:
Wouldn't parsers in FFXIV really only be useful to monks/dragoons due to combos? I see arcanist/summoner throw dots up and use other attack skills on CD and thm/blm doing fire/ice rotation with thunder(refresh). Mind you it's just a guess as I haven't played thm/blm or arc/brd.


Not at all. Parsing is useful for all sorts of things.

Primarily of course, it's used to measure damage per second. But when you dig a little further down, you can also get all sorts of data about how your abilities work.

For instance: How much DID my aoe heal do? On three targets? On five? Healing per cast time is a useful stat for a healer to know. How much uptime did I have on Greased Lightning? How efficiently did I use my cooldowns? And anyone who thinks tank dps doesn't matter is nuts.

When you're trying to make raid bosses fall down, all that crap's important.


One example I've already seen which is incredibly useful is a level 50 warrior who spent p4 parsing a full strength vs full vitality gear setup. Using a tanking rotation, the full strength setup yielded about 1% more average damage and less than that in damage prevented.

Given how many HP such a setup sacrifices, that puts a nail in the coffin of any argument about which stat 8s most important for warrior, a discussion which otherwise came down to a lot of people offering feeling and opinions that "either one is good."
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#35 Aug 21 2013 at 10:22 PM Rating: Decent
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So basically people who use parsers are out to make everyone play how they do, to drive them around like bosses at a job. Gotcha I and many others are correct in calling you elitists. I dont need a parser to tell me how to play, Im an intelligent grown man, who can actually read what a tool tip is tyvm. I will let you parser crutch folks in on a secret, people were raiding without them before quite successfully. Yes I know a shock to you.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 12:22am by Ehllfire
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#36 Aug 21 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why so much hate? Peace, love and understanding folks, seriously. If you don't like parsers, don't use them. Simple as that. No need to judge others on something that you don't agree with. Your opinion is your own, but please respect others. I personally love parsers, because while I do not need it to play well, I do like to see how I am performing mathematically with a parser that can do calculations that I simply cannot, nor do I care to.

Peace.
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#37 Aug 21 2013 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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Ehllfire wrote:
So basically people who use parsers are out to make everyone play how they do, to drive them around like bosses at a job. Gotcha I and many others are correct in calling you elitists. I dont need a parser to tell me how to play, Im an intelligent grown man, who can actually read what a tool tip is tyvm. I will let you parser crutch folks in on a secret, people were raiding without them before quite successfully. Yes I know a shock to you.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 12:22am by Ehllfire


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#38 Aug 21 2013 at 11:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's true that the use of parsers can sometimes descend into e-peen flaming (well, wriggling - if you need to flash your e-peen, chances are it's wriggling like a tadpole, rather than swinging like a windmill Smiley: sly), but as others have said the individual use for individual improvement is great.

If I'm playing a character to 90% of it's potential, my interest is immediately in "where is that other 10% going?" "How can I find it?" "What is realistic, given server lag, human reactions etc?" Even if I only find 5%/6%/7% of this missing amount, that could mean the difference between victory & wiping.

I was in a small guild in TOR, that ran a single raid group. I was considered the go-to guy for rotations/priorities etc. for most specs (DPS-wise). Without parsing, all I could do to help others was "so, how often are you doing this/this/that?" Eyeballing is inherently flawed as a statistical method. For example, I was one of 2 Commando DPS in the team. They have 1 ability (Hammer Shot) that is a resource-free attack, for minimal damage - every other attack uses resources. The key to the class is balancing resource management (and regeneration) with maximal DPS. With this in mind, and the fact that a proc effect was key to both aspects, there was a theorycrafted number for how many times/minute one should be using Hammer Shot. Without a parser, I wouldn't have been able to tell this number at all (for either of us). With it, it became clear that we were both well over this number, leading us to search for where we were pushing too hard on resources, and where we could balance this out. Consequently, we both improved DPS output clearly, leading to more success for the group.

I'm not against parsing for LS, as long as it is done for the right reasons (like most things within a LS, really). Sure, there's room for a bit of friendly baiting about topping charts, but it is a help tool first & foremost. If a person isn't consistently looking to improve their performance, then tbh I won't spend much time with them. I'd much rather a new player that is clearly keen to learn, than a vet who is (in their minds) God's gift to virtual slaughter.
#39 Aug 22 2013 at 4:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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carmelita wrote:
If I'm playing a character to 90% of it's potential, my interest is immediately in "where is that other 10% going?" "How can I find it?" "What is realistic, given server lag, human reactions etc?" Even if I only find 5%/6%/7% of this missing amount, that could mean the difference between victory & wiping.


While the difference between victory and wiping is obviously important, it's not just about that. For me, it's very simply doing my best. Why would I settle for less? It's all around mental attitude that extends to real life. I don't do less than my best at work, either, and that's not just because I'm getting paid. I do it because less is just that - less. I guess that's perfectionism, but I just don't understand doing things half-assed. Do it right, do it well, end of story.

As it applies to the game, there are plenty of opportunities to engage in less intense activities that do not require a lot of thought or concentration. A group raid is not one of those times. You are going out with a group of other players to accomplish a goal. Why would you not do everything you can to accomplish that goal? A parser to establish the most efficient way to accomplish that goal is part of that. If nothing else, I want the raid to be over with so I can go do other stuff - whether IRL or in-game. The other players are real people who are there to accompish the same goal; it is just plain rude to waste their time. They have other things to do as well.

You want to half-*** it, fine. But don't waste everyone's time because you can't be bothered to figure out how to optimize your performance.
#40 Aug 22 2013 at 5:21 AM Rating: Good
Man the good old days of parsing dps I was a sin in eq2 we loved to parser another good thing about the parser we used it also alerted you of mobs abilities major and minor especially the ones that hurt and are aoe.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 7:22am by hunglikeafieldmouse
#41 Aug 22 2013 at 6:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mollyrose wrote:
carmelita wrote:
If I'm playing a character to 90% of it's potential, my interest is immediately in "where is that other 10% going?" "How can I find it?" "What is realistic, given server lag, human reactions etc?" Even if I only find 5%/6%/7% of this missing amount, that could mean the difference between victory & wiping.


While the difference between victory and wiping is obviously important, it's not just about that. For me, it's very simply doing my best. Why would I settle for less? It's all around mental attitude that extends to real life. I don't do less than my best at work, either, and that's not just because I'm getting paid. I do it because less is just that - less. I guess that's perfectionism, but I just don't understand doing things half-assed. Do it right, do it well, end of story.

As it applies to the game, there are plenty of opportunities to engage in less intense activities that do not require a lot of thought or concentration. A group raid is not one of those times. You are going out with a group of other players to accomplish a goal. Why would you not do everything you can to accomplish that goal? A parser to establish the most efficient way to accomplish that goal is part of that. If nothing else, I want the raid to be over with so I can go do other stuff - whether IRL or in-game. The other players are real people who are there to accompish the same goal; it is just plain rude to waste their time. They have other things to do as well.

You want to half-*** it, fine. But don't waste everyone's time because you can't be bothered to figure out how to optimize your performance.

Sorry - good point. I clearly didn't express myself well, as yours really is similar to my mindset. If the group wins but I've had a rubbish fight, I have (very occasionally) passed on loot, as I felt I didn't deserve it.

I made a similar post somewhere else here, about running the 3 starter dungeons in OB as a LNC. I could have just spammed True Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust, or mashed on Impulse Drive from behind the target, and cleared it. It's tutorial content, after all. But (with some ACH abilities), I was managing a DoT, a debuff, 2 buffs (one being positional dependent), a 30s CD stun, a positional attack and a 2-part combo. Managing several things helps keep one sharp, but (as you say) dammit, I'm going to play this right!

And later on, "playing right" can only really be determined through dispassionate metrics (aka parsers). I'm not hardcore, but I'm not casual either. I'm just a guy, who wants to play the best he can, and help those who want to improve play their best too (I'm a teacher irl, after all ...). If you don't want to learn & improve, no problem - it's your $14.99/month. BUT, to borrow the old chestnut, be aware that 7 others, and their $104.93/month, may feel differently.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 11:17pm by carmelita
#42 Aug 22 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ehllfire wrote:
So basically people who use parsers are out to make everyone play how they do, to drive them around like bosses at a job. Gotcha I and many others are correct in calling you elitists. I dont need a parser to tell me how to play, Im an intelligent grown man, who can actually read what a tool tip is tyvm. I will let you parser crutch folks in on a secret, people were raiding without them before quite successfully. Yes I know a shock to you.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 12:22am by Ehllfire


Honestly, did you even bother reading what people are posting in this thread? Almost everyone in here is advocating the use of parsers on a PERSONAL level to improve your own performance. It's really not a question of if it will improve your performance, it's a question of by how much. Let me give you a little example:

In swtor, I went for about 6 months in endgame without using a parser. I knew the exact rotation that I thought was getting me the most damage. I read all the tooltips, I scoured the forums for the most up to date information, and I played around with my rotations all the time to maximize my efficiency. Then one day, I came across a parser that actually worked for me (had tried a few that just didn't perform well), and I immediately was able to test out different ways of playing, I was able to hone in on things like how much DoT I was doing to different mobs, when exactly would be the best time to focus on my big hitting skills vs. my DoT skills, and when to best utilize group buff moves vs. self buff moves. After really taking some time to decipher all of this data, the immediate impact was a roughly 150 DPS increase in the raid we were working on. Since my DPS sat around 1800 for the majority of the raid at the time, that was almost a 10% increase in my overall efficiency. I would have never been able to gain that 10% without utilizing a parser because there's simply no way to "eyeball" everything in terms of damage and the effect that buffs and other skills can have on your performance.

The point is,a parser isn't a crutch, it's a tool. As I said, I don't expect everyone to use it, and I would never make it mandatory in any of my groups,but for self-evaluation purposes it is an excellent way to get the most out of your rotation. If you don't want to use it fine, but don't act like you're a better player or something for not using it.
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#43 Aug 22 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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hah!

I lol'd too :)
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#44 Aug 22 2013 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow how did this thread become a crying fest for parsers, god forbid someone wants to make their character better so they can kill endgame bosses. If you people don't plan on endgame you don't need to use one, but to kill the hardest monsters it is fun to see what gives you the best damage output.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 9:23am by Mopdaddy
Just want to add one thing you people say that parsers make people ******** when the only holes I see are the people **** bent on bashing anyone that uses them. Funny b.c those people think they act any different then the people they hate, when in reality they are worse.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 9:26am by Mopdaddy
#45 Aug 22 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ehllfire wrote:
So basically people who use parsers are out to make everyone play how they do, to drive them around like bosses at a job.


That's the second time you've decided to broadly generalize every one who uses a tool in a negative way. First it was "They're all bads" and now it's "They're all control freaks." Are you just trolling?

Quote:

Gotcha I and many others are correct in calling you elitists.


You can call parser users whatever name you want, but it doesn't make it true. Even the label "elitist" is meaningless. Some of the content in the game will be difficut and group centric. The enjoyment of 7 other people or 23 other people may be determined in part by your willingness to conform to expectations and/or "try hard" at a game. If wanting to succeed at hard content makes some one an elitist so be it, but if you don't want to succeed, then why are you there, and if you're not there, why do you care?

But even that's irrelevant because as you say:

Quote:
I dont need a parser to tell me how to play, Im an intelligent grown man, who can actually read what a tool tip is tyvm.


So you are basically an expert without needing any help, which means that some one who is parsing your performance shouldn't really find any problem with what you're doing. Regardless of whether you're doing it the way some one else thinks you should, the numbers should speak for themselves. You will be near the top of damage boards, or effective healing, or damage mitigation and threat generation, avoiding AoEs, etc.

Since you are such a great player, no one will have any reason to "tell you how to play." So what's the problem exactly?

It sounds like maybe you are "awesome" in your mind, but in measurable results, tend to fall short (almost all people over estimate their own competence at everything they do, so don't feel too bad) or you are worrying about something which can't possibly effect you.

Not to mention, you've simply chosen to ignore that the biggest reason people use parsers isn't to improve your performance but to improve their own. You sneer at this behavior and degrade those people, for what reason? If you're not actually better than them (and I suspect you're not, but you insist you are) then you're the fool for calling THEM "bad", and if you ARE better, then you're the very elitist you accuse others of being.

Either way, your disdain doesn't make logical sense. It seems like an emotional reaction based on ... what? People failing to recognize how awesome you are naturally? Some one told you to use Sushi instead of Mithkabobs?

What life experience makes you comfortable asserting that all people who use parsers are bad players or bad people? IMO, no valid excuse exists to make such claims.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 10:26am by KarlHungis
#46 Aug 22 2013 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Parser comparisons are irrelevant anyhow. You could do the most damage of your group by far, but if you take damage like a wet paper towel and drain the MP of your healers all by yourself while everyone else is pacing their damage and keeping their defense up... then who is in the wrong there?

The guys not dealing an aweful lot of damage in comparison? Or the guy who is sucking up alliance MP for cures like a sponge?

The correct way is to see which piece of gear lets you deal more damage than the piece you had before. If you use it to judge the performance of others, you're doing something wrong.

I've seen it in XI often enough. Someone would brag about how he is doing 5000 damage weaponskills over the group average of 4000. Parser would probably show that he's dealing more damage. What it doesnt show is that the monster is now hitting him instead of the Tank, who by the way would easily have been able to absorb all the damage without breaking a sweat, and that everyone is now wasting MP trying to keep the raging DD's **** alive. And for what? So the monster you were fighting died 3% quicker than it would before only to have to waste a lot more time than you gained trying to restore MP or raise the people they couldnt cure anymore? Because that's the point where people blame the Tank or the Healers instead, right? They should have had more MP, more refresh, or should be able to hold hate better, right?

It's a game. Cooperation and playing together are way more important than who has the biggest e-peen. I thought we were all mature by now.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 4:36pm by KojiroSoma
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#47 Aug 22 2013 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
I completely agree that players should be coached and helped instead of being tossed aside. I know how that feels, and it sucks. I'm sorry if it came out that way.

Here is why I started believing in the use of parsers:
Back when FFXI launched I had two favorite jobs. Monk and Dragoon. It was **** finding a group sometimes.. know why? Because people parsed with their eyeballs and didn't see my hits adding up to those of a Dark Knight or other heavy hitting jobs. Then one day some guys started computing the DPS (they called it DoT back then, which was kinda weird..). They showed the players that Monks hit much faster and their damage often added up to much more than a DK's in an xp fight. They showed that the Dragoon's wyvern balanced their slow hitting speed and put them on par as well. All of the sudden people were seeking out my job for groups! Without people like Pathfinder (old math guy from FFXI), Monks wouldn't have seen the light of day (literally, they'd be stuck in KRT all the time Smiley: lol ).

So although parsers and the like can lead to nasty people being nastier, I think the benefits outweigh the downside. Just my opinion.


I completely agree with you here, and I figured you weren't intentionally trying to breed that sort of "kick em to the curb" mentality, I think it's just because you were actively debating against someone so adamantly opposed to parsers that it came off that way a bit. FFXI is when I started using parsers, for almost the exact same reason. My main was a thf, and everone always said they didn't need me after 60 because other jobs hit harder and could SATA. Then I'd show them the parse at the end of the fight, where I actually did just as much melee damage as drks, sams, etc because of my attack speed and using attack food, and WS'd twice as often due to much faster TP gain and being able to split up SA and TA. Course, I also had sam and war leveled, and my war was geared to the teeth so I couldn't really compete with it on thf, but against your average to above average geared players I'd easily hold my own.

I actually love using a parser. I almost always parse in games to figure out what I can be doing better. But like I said, I use it more as a self-evaluation tool and would never make it a requirement for anyone else unless it became clear that we weren't beating content specifically because of a lack of DPS. Being able to see everyone elses damage often does lead to elitism and epeen wagging, as unfortunate as that is. It's why I really disliked recount in WoW.


So basically you used parsers as a tool to prove to others that pack mentality can and will often be disproven. I was blu/thf. People hated my job choice. I wish consoles would have had a parser. I knew I did a ton of DPS, I just couldn't prove it.
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#48 Aug 22 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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KojiroSoma wrote:
Parser comparisons are irrelevant anyhow. You could do the most damage of your group by far, but if you take damage like a wet paper towel and drain the MP of your healers all by yourself while everyone else is pacing their damage and keeping their defense up... then who is in the wrong there?


But even that is an example of something that can be shown using a parser much more efficiently than arguing with some one that they are or aren't taking "too much damage." Good parsers, the kind that "serious" players would actually use, will include damage taken, and from what sources. If Mr Selfish starts strutting then it's not usually hard to show "Here's the damage you took, and here's the damage every one else took" to make that point.

Parsers are like any tool, they can be misused. Their value depends on understanding what information is truly important, how to interpret it, and also the ability to understand that not everything important shows up on a parser. Some one who is abusive to other guild or raid members or has a constant "what's in it for me?" selfish attitude may not be worth having around even if their DPS rotation brings all the boys to the yard.

The fact that human beings can be flawed though doesn't mean that having less information about the world is better than having more information. Especially when you're talking about content that people take on specifically to test themselves and gain a feeling of mastery. Knowing why you're failing, or why some one else is succeeding can be very empowering, and can lead to more satisfaction and happiness in the game.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 10:55am by KarlHungis
#49 Aug 22 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Parser comparisons are irrelevant anyhow. You could do the most damage of your group by far, but if you take damage like a wet paper towel and drain the MP of your healers all by yourself while everyone else is pacing their damage and keeping their defense up... then who is in the wrong there?


That's all situational. In a straight tank-and-spank style fight, output is all that matters. In a fight with mechanics, you do the mechanics. If you need to hold back a bit so you don't over-threat the tank, then you do that.

This is all about being a good player. If you've been following this thread, you'll see that the people talking about parsers like they are NOT the harbinger of the coming apocalypse are talking about using them responsibly. It is not responsible to get killed just to inflate your own numbers; that's common sense.

Quote:
What it doesnt show is that the monster is now hitting him instead of the Tank, who by the way would easily have been able to absorb all the damage without breaking a sweat, and that everyone is now wasting MP trying to keep the raging DD's **** alive.


Actually Damage Taken is a normal stat that a parser will keep track of. The tunnel-visioning DD in your scenario here would have an unreasonably high amount of that.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 9:51am by Callinon
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#50 Aug 22 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.


Cough XIV-App Cough


I will start off by saying i have not clue what a Parser is but from i've read, it tracks your information during gameplay for personal evaluation and assessment.
it does seem like it may cause some problems when playing with those who might take the game as seriously as others.

This sounds great for those of us who want to get better at our jobs. I have a few questions though; is it only for DPS? And can i only use it when the game is running??

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#51 Aug 22 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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RyanSquires wrote:
Wint wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.


Cough XIV-App Cough


I will start off by saying i have not clue what a Parser is but from i've read, it tracks your information during gameplay for personal evaluation and assessment. [...]


Small intermission: A parser is a computer program that reads sentences and chops them up into words, Those words can then be further processed, or interpreted. Example: "This is a sentence." A parser can read that and create a data structure out of that, for instance: ["This" "is" "a" "sentence"]

You can set up if your client such that it saves your chat log and battle logs to your computer hard disk. A parser can now read these files and pick up sentences like: "You did 530 damage to the squirrel!". Now if the structure of these sentences are always the same, the damage number is always on third place, you can interpret this as one damage data point in a given fight. All damage numbers collected and summed up for a fight is the complete damage you did in a fight. Even better is when you turn on time stamps in the configuration of your battle logs. Now you can compute the amount of damage dealt over a given time span and compute the damage per second ratio (DPS).

Hope this wasn't too technical.

Now back to the heated topic at hand...
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