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#1 Aug 21 2013 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Test/threads/110764-Training-Dummies?p=1340653#post1340653

LMAO This wasn't supposed to turn into a Parsing thread. I'm thinking it was the Subject Heading that mislead people into thinking the subject was about dumb players.

Training Dummies

As some of you may have noticed in your travels, we've set up training dummies around the world to aid you with your battle tactics!

We’ve heard of some players having issues with not being able to change classes because the dummy still has enmity (If I couldn't move and fight back I'd hate you too…). As this enmity will not disappear over time, just gain some distance from it (don't worry, it's a dummy it can't chase you!) and you'll be able to change classes no problemo!

One other thing to note is that these dummies know when you are attacking from the front, side, and rear, so you can test out all your combo effects on these guys as well.


So that's what they're there for. Sic Em Carby!!

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 1:05pm by Grandmomma
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#2 Aug 21 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.
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#3 Aug 21 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Neat, I can use them for macro testing.
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#4 Aug 21 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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"If i couldn't move and fight back i'd hate you too..."

hah!
#5 Aug 21 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Not saying I don't approve of the things that have been tweaked and added... (dummies, new gathering abilities, less hits per node) but why are we not hard at work on the server side to make things run oh so smooth on there end first... then add such things?
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#6 Aug 21 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.


Cough XIV-App Cough
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#7 Aug 21 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.


Cough XIV-App Cough


Oh right!
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#8 Aug 21 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.

*cough* parsers are for weenies *cough*
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#9 Aug 21 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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Ehllfire wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.

*cough* parsers are for weenies *cough*


Parsers are necessary for maximizing your dps. If you don't have numbers to prove your rotations, then you're just guessing. In raids you need it to show who isn't pulling their weight and dragging the group down, causing wipes. That weenie won't have a raid group anymore :(
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#10Ehllfire, Posted: Aug 21 2013 at 4:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Only bads need parsers, the good players learn there rotations without crutches.
#11 Aug 21 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Ehllfire wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Ehllfire wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
Awesome! Now all we need is a dps parser like recount or skada and we can perfect our rotations and conquer The Crystal Tower! Very cool addition, I was really hoping for this.

*cough* parsers are for weenies *cough*


Parsers are necessary for maximizing your dps. If you don't have numbers to prove your rotations, then you're just guessing. In raids you need it to show who isn't pulling their weight and dragging the group down, causing wipes. That weenie won't have a raid group anymore :(

Only bads need parsers, the good players learn there rotations without crutches.


You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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#12Ehllfire, Posted: Aug 21 2013 at 4:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I dont need a program to tell me what my eyes do. Parsers ARE a crutch for bads.
#13 Aug 21 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Since when have your eyes been able to log damage information for an entire fight and compute how much damage you're doing per second at any given time with all buffs up or without buffs, while also computing how much the rest of the group is doing all within a millisecond of it occurring. You're talking nonsense.
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#14 Aug 21 2013 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Raids are about team play, if you fail dps check then the dps work it out civilly, not someone like you yelling OMG you suck your dps is 2.3/sec lower than everyone else, you fail go kill yourself. and never come back. Same for healing and tanking. I pity whatever fc takes you long.
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#15 Aug 21 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Ehllfire wrote:
Raids are about team play, if you fail dps check then the dps work it out civilly, not someone like you yelling OMG you suck your dps is 2.3/sec lower than everyone else, you fail go kill yourself. and never come back. Same for healing and tanking. I pity whatever fc takes you long.


I've never told anyone that they fail and they should end their life. A parser is a tool that should be used. Not all fights are about strategy. Some have enrage timers that need to be beat in order to win. If someone is lagging behind in dps, it's necessary to tell them to improve or replace them. You're making a lot of assumptions. If it were a team drag race for example, you would be able to see (with your eyes) the car that isn't keeping up and dragging the over all 1/4 mile time average down. You can't see that with your eyes in a boss fight. Addons like recount give you a visual of the problem so that the guy in the stock civic can do what is necessary to keep up with the team and win the race.

Your argument still in no way says anything about parsers being a "crutch". You're only saying that it leads to elitism. Elitism is an attitude, governed by someone's personality, not what addons they use to streamline their performance.

*I'd also like to point out that in a community like FF's, a lot of people will be raiding with their friends and guild mates. In that case, your comrades will help you improve your damage/healing/mitigation to ensure the success of the group. If they're kicking you out of the group and calling you names, you need a new group of people to play with. It's happened to me many times throughout the years, you just deal with it and fix the problem.

Edited, Aug 21st 2013 7:11pm by Transmigration
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#16 Aug 21 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mmoderator wrote:
Not saying I don't approve of the things that have been tweaked and added... (dummies, new gathering abilities, less hits per node) but why are we not hard at work on the server side to make things run oh so smooth on there end first... then add such things?


You are hitting on a common misguided thought process behind game development. Game developers are in teams and specialize on certain aspects of the game. Developers working on dummies and skills and models have nothing to do with the network administrators. They can't simply shift a resource that does character modelling to debug a server database issue.
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#17 Aug 21 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
Parsers are necessary for maximizing your dps. If you don't have numbers to prove your rotations, then you're just guessing. In raids you need it to show who isn't pulling their weight and dragging the group down, causing wipes. That weenie won't have a raid group anymore :(


Transmigration wrote:
Ehllfire wrote:
Raids are about team play, if you fail dps check then the dps work it out civilly, not someone like you yelling OMG you suck your dps is 2.3/sec lower than everyone else, you fail go kill yourself. and never come back. Same for healing and tanking. I pity whatever fc takes you long.


I've never told anyone that they fail and they should end their life. A parser is a tool that should be used. Not all fights are about strategy. Some have enrage timers that need to be beat in order to win. If someone is lagging behind in dps, it's necessary to tell them to improve or replace them. You're making a lot of assumptions. If it were a team drag race for example, you would be able to see (with your eyes) the car that isn't keeping up and dragging the over all 1/4 mile time average down. You can't see that with your eyes in a boss fight. Addons like recount give you a visual of the problem so that the guy in the stock civic can do what is necessary to keep up with the team and win the race.

Your argument still in no way says anything about parsers being a "crutch". You're only saying that it leads to elitism. Elitism is an attitude, governed by someone's personality, not what addons they use to streamline their performance.


Trans, I agree with everything you are saying except the bolded parts. It's exactly what I don't like about parsers. It ends up singling people out and basically saying "improve, or you're gone." Yes, there are battles where it's a DPS race and you need to have everyone working efficiently, and yes that's what a parser is good at determining. But rather than giving the lowest player an ultimatum to improve or be replaced, I'd much rather someone take the time to mentor that person, help them understand their rotation, and show them the best ways to increase their DPS. Sometimes players really need to learn by example, not learn by fear of being booted for someone better. That absolutely breeds elitism.

I have a feeling that it isn't what you meant to imply with your posts, but it really came off like the lowest members are expendable in order to achieve goals, and I really hate that mentality in a group. As long as you are clearing the content, a parser should be a self-evaluation tool. If you aren't clearing content, and it's actually due to the DPS being too low, then it needs to be evaluated and the lowest members need to be given a helping hand, not a kick out the door.

Ehllfire, if you honestly don't see the value and benefit of a parser, you really don't understand how an MMO works. Regardless of what you think your eyes are seeing, you will never full realize your potential until you can compare different abilities with actual numbers, determine whether or not a DoT is worth using, determine when the ideal time to use certain buffs/debuffs is, etc. All of these things are easily identified by parsing, whereas just using the eye test can often times be misleading due to not paying close enough attention, hidden variables, or just not getting a large enough sample size of actual statistical data.

Sorry for the long-winded post, parsers tend to be a touchy subject for me.
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#18 Aug 21 2013 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Parsers are good. You can maximize your dps, whats wrong with that? Also if it's known that xx boss needs xx dps per minute or whatever to even kill it, and you can see your group is not pulling that, then you can save everyone time and gil.
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#19 Aug 21 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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I completely agree that players should be coached and helped instead of being tossed aside. I know how that feels, and it sucks. I'm sorry if it came out that way.

Here is why I started believing in the use of parsers:
Back when FFXI launched I had two favorite jobs. Monk and Dragoon. It was **** finding a group sometimes.. know why? Because people parsed with their eyeballs and didn't see my hits adding up to those of a Dark Knight or other heavy hitting jobs. Then one day some guys started computing the DPS (they called it DoT back then, which was kinda weird..). They showed the players that Monks hit much faster and their damage often added up to much more than a DK's in an xp fight. They showed that the Dragoon's wyvern balanced their slow hitting speed and put them on par as well. All of the sudden people were seeking out my job for groups! Without people like Pathfinder (old math guy from FFXI), Monks wouldn't have seen the light of day (literally, they'd be stuck in KRT all the time Smiley: lol ).

So although parsers and the like can lead to nasty people being nastier, I think the benefits outweigh the downside. Just my opinion.

*Lest us forget, most FFXI players did not use parsers, and yet many jobs were benched in order to hit merrit chain 100+ etc. Elitism and out casting is inevitable. At least with a parser, you can prove your worth to people to gain a spot. Anyway that's all, I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers.

Edited, Aug 21st 2013 7:29pm by Transmigration
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#20 Aug 21 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration wrote:
I completely agree that players should be coached and helped instead of being tossed aside. I know how that feels, and it sucks. I'm sorry if it came out that way.

Here is why I started believing in the use of parsers:
Back when FFXI launched I had two favorite jobs. Monk and Dragoon. It was **** finding a group sometimes.. know why? Because people parsed with their eyeballs and didn't see my hits adding up to those of a Dark Knight or other heavy hitting jobs. Then one day some guys started computing the DPS (they called it DoT back then, which was kinda weird..). They showed the players that Monks hit much faster and their damage often added up to much more than a DK's in an xp fight. They showed that the Dragoon's wyvern balanced their slow hitting speed and put them on par as well. All of the sudden people were seeking out my job for groups! Without people like Pathfinder (old math guy from FFXI), Monks wouldn't have seen the light of day (literally, they'd be stuck in KRT all the time Smiley: lol ).

So although parsers and the like can lead to nasty people being nastier, I think the benefits outweigh the downside. Just my opinion.


I completely agree with you here, and I figured you weren't intentionally trying to breed that sort of "kick em to the curb" mentality, I think it's just because you were actively debating against someone so adamantly opposed to parsers that it came off that way a bit. FFXI is when I started using parsers, for almost the exact same reason. My main was a thf, and everone always said they didn't need me after 60 because other jobs hit harder and could SATA. Then I'd show them the parse at the end of the fight, where I actually did just as much melee damage as drks, sams, etc because of my attack speed and using attack food, and WS'd twice as often due to much faster TP gain and being able to split up SA and TA. Course, I also had sam and war leveled, and my war was geared to the teeth so I couldn't really compete with it on thf, but against your average to above average geared players I'd easily hold my own.

I actually love using a parser. I almost always parse in games to figure out what I can be doing better. But like I said, I use it more as a self-evaluation tool and would never make it a requirement for anyone else unless it became clear that we weren't beating content specifically because of a lack of DPS. Being able to see everyone elses damage often does lead to elitism and epeen wagging, as unfortunate as that is. It's why I really disliked recount in WoW.
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#21 Aug 21 2013 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ehllfire wrote:
Raids are about team play, if you fail dps check then the dps work it out civilly, not someone like you yelling OMG you suck your dps is 2.3/sec lower than everyone else, you fail go kill yourself. and never come back. Same for healing and tanking. I pity whatever fc takes you long.


I gotta admit, I agree with you in essence, but not in tone. If you use a DPS parser to tinker with your own rotation, then more power to you. I, for one, don't really care if I squeeze out that last 5 dps for the fight as long as the mob dies before me or my group. If it doesn't I try something different. Never needed a parser, never will use one. There aren't that many skills and rotations at this point to warrant it. Now if you are using a parser to judge other people... well that is at its base, elitism. You are judging everyone else by some standard and calling out weak links. If the person is not standing around roasting marshmellows in the fire or off AFK in the zone picking daisies and they are actively engaging the enemy and trying, then who am I to go telling them how to play their game? If you wipe to the boss, try something different. Wipe again, then discuss as a group what else to try. In a raid, it is a team effort and as long as the team is trying, some people will make up for others at different times.

Just my opinion on the subject. I am, nor ever was, some hardcore numbers junkie who needed to justify my game enjoyment with some boss trophy list or crazy dps avg numbers or BiS gear. I do enough number and data crunching at work, don't need it in a game I play for enjoyment. Some people dig that, and good on them - but they aren't my crowd and I'll have just as much fun with a group of people like me wiping on a boss a few times and figuring things out tactics-wise than playing the numbers game. I'd venture to say, changing tactics could very well be akin to having a higher dps rotation in the end, but I don't need a parser to get there. To each their own though. As long as you do right by you and have a good time, then that is what it is about along with finding others like-minded.
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#22 Aug 21 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do think parsers can provide a limited analysis that can improve certain techniques and strategies.

But they are limited and overreliance can actually produce a flawed picture of the value of your performance, so they must be used with care.

For one thing, they can only track what gets logged. If the server never reports the damage (e.g. Casting Drain at full health in FFXI), then you are doing better than the parser will indicate. It may also attribute good teamwork to only player who got a damage bonus thanks to the efforts of others. If you just look at raw damage as being "good" you might actually discourage people from assisting their team in doing greater damage just so their personal damage numbers don't suffer. And not every benefit deals damage. A well timed stun could help bring a mob down faster even though you did no damage but doing so was far more valuable than an extra swing.

So definitely use parsers to help, but remember they aren't a panacea for all damage dealing woes. There are limits to what they can reveal so don't let your teamwork suffer for it.
#23 Aug 21 2013 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
I do think parsers can provide a limited analysis that can improve certain techniques and strategies.

But they are limited and overreliance can actually produce a flawed picture of the value of your performance, so they must be used with care.

For one thing, they can only track what gets logged. If the server never reports the damage (e.g. Casting Drain at full health in FFXI), then you are doing better than the parser will indicate. It may also attribute good teamwork to only player who got a damage bonus thanks to the efforts of others. If you just look at raw damage as being "good" you might actually discourage people from assisting their team in doing greater damage just so their personal damage numbers don't suffer. And not every benefit deals damage. A well timed stun could help bring a mob down faster even though you did no damage but doing so was far more valuable than an extra swing.

So definitely use parsers to help, but remember they aren't a panacea for all damage dealing woes. There are limits to what they can reveal so don't let your teamwork suffer for it.


Pretty much this. It's ultimately the same in actual team sports as well. Sabremetrics, moneyball, whatever you want to call it, you still need to factor in the intangibles of a situation. Parsing numbers and crunching damage totals can only go so far until you see that some people just panic the eff out when they are in a hairy situation against a certain boss that has a special means to be fought, or has a plethora of minions, or some other mechanic that can't be judged solely based off of the numbers.
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#24 Aug 21 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah I like parsers for my own meta-game and will probably just use it for my own curiosity.

But if I'm in a hardcore group (like I'll accidentally find myself in one drunken night) and they tell me I need to parse, then I probably would say see you guys later.

---

I used parsers for FFXI just to see what I DMG I needed to maintain for NIN tanking, but after a while it was up to the DDs in the group not to go crazy. I probably wasn't the most optimal tank, but I did well.

I hope FFXIV leans more towards a community that doesn't need to use parsers to beat content, but rather gives the choice to hardcore players that it's up to them if they, say, want to beat content faster, or beat Hard(er) Mode content.
#25 Aug 21 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
This is exactly what puts me off about playing, I don't really want another job, I have one and a very stressful one too. The last thing I want to do is to come home to relax and play the game only to find my **** is pinned to the wall for not quite pulling my weight. I envisioned more of a casual and fun gaming experience, thank goodness there is room for non-hardcore players in the ls/fc because that's the level I am comfortable playing with.

However, if that's what floats your boat, then more power to you.
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#26 Aug 21 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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purethulium wrote:
Mmoderator wrote:
Not saying I don't approve of the things that have been tweaked and added... (dummies, new gathering abilities, less hits per node) but why are we not hard at work on the server side to make things run oh so smooth on there end first... then add such things?


You are hitting on a common misguided thought process behind game development. Game developers are in teams and specialize on certain aspects of the game. Developers working on dummies and skills and models have nothing to do with the network administrators. They can't simply shift a resource that does character modelling to debug a server database issue.


Meh... I should have known this from reading some of the Live Letters and him stating what team was doing what at the time. I spoke before thinking in a rage because of some BS on my SE account. ;( go ahead kick me in the ****! I deserve it...
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