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Official XIV forums are up, with ridiculous posting limits!Follow

#52 Aug 22 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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Did you have to resubscribe to the Lodestone? Its treating me like I don't exist...
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#53 Aug 22 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
So they essentially want Twitter forums.

Or, I guess, Kwehter.


Yeah that's pretty much what I was thinking too.

A 1000-character limit on posts in discussion forums severely limits the feedback that players are able to provide about the game, at least in the obvious place to provide feedback about a game. It's a step backwards on their path to better communication with the community.

Either that or they really just can't be bothered to read anything longer than a paragraph.


One can only hope that the old workaround from the Beta forums will still work, which was that you could simply edit your post after it was posted, and then add as much extra content as you wanted to it right away, since the time restriction nor character limit affected that.

I'm sort of reminded of the denseness that the old development team had when it came to 1.x and the chat system in-game. At the beginning and for months afterwards the character limit was something around 80 characters, barely half a tweet. That's all well and good for your Japanese players and posters who can condense much of their conversation in to symbols that represent whole phrases or several words, but imagine how painfully annoying that is for English speakers. And let's not even consider how bad it will be for the Germans, whose whole vocabulary is all about combining words together wholesale.

I think Elmerthepointy, an old friend of mine and former ZAM Moderator, even wrote up a op-ed about that very issue back during 1.x as well.

Anyway, getting a little off track. The point is that the character limitation is incredibly silly. Threads per day limit? Totally fine and cool, and makes plenty of sense. But post restrictions built around time and characters is far too restrictive.
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#54 Aug 22 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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You are able to edit your posts after a limit is reached. That's something at least.

And it's a full 24 hours after the limit is reached til you can post again. Not after midnight GMT/PDT.

Well I suppose it is what it is. And it's a shame. I can get behind them trying to combat violations, just not at the expense of those that do not break forum guidelines.
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#55 Aug 22 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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silverhope wrote:
Mopdaddy wrote:

I'm lvl 50 though so I get 20. I also get unlimited in the ones that matter.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 11:09am by Mopdaddy



Sooo.. let me get this straight.. you only care about yourself and if it doesn't bother you than everything is A OK? thats like saying "well i dont need a wheelchair why does this building need a ramp" Not everyone is gonna rush to 50 jsut to get forum up to its max potential. Seems like SE is taking things alittle to far with the rules.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 12:10pm by silverhope

Putting words in people's mouth's shame on you. Every area a new player will need to post they have unlimited posts... Let me know what problems someone might have with this?

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 12:46pm by Mopdaddy
#56 Aug 22 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Mopdaddy wrote:
silverhope wrote:
Mopdaddy wrote:

I'm lvl 50 though so I get 20. I also get unlimited in the ones that matter.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 11:09am by Mopdaddy



Sooo.. let me get this straight.. you only care about yourself and if it doesn't bother you than everything is A OK? thats like saying "well i dont need a wheelchair why does this building need a ramp" Not everyone is gonna rush to 50 jsut to get forum up to its max potential. Seems like SE is taking things alittle to far with the rules.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 12:10pm by silverhope

Putting words in people's mouth's shame on you. Every area a new player will need to post they have unlimited posts...


Need to post, okay. Want to post? Why have different forums created for Lore, Crafting, Worlds, Quests, Dungeons, Guildleves, Fate, Companies, Hunting Logs, Market and Retainers, etc if newer and lower level characters have to pick one or another a day to discuss in?
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#57 Aug 22 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Satisiun wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
So they essentially want Twitter forums.

Or, I guess, Kwehter.


Yeah that's pretty much what I was thinking too.

A 1000-character limit on posts in discussion forums severely limits the feedback that players are able to provide about the game, at least in the obvious place to provide feedback about a game. It's a step backwards on their path to better communication with the community.

Either that or they really just can't be bothered to read anything longer than a paragraph.


One can only hope that the old workaround from the Beta forums will still work, which was that you could simply edit your post after it was posted, and then add as much extra content as you wanted to it right away, since the time restriction nor character limit affected that.


The workaround does work, praise the Crystal or something.

I'll have you know that there is a hidden character limit per post, even post-edit, and that's 70,000 characters. While much more reasonable than 1,000 (duh!), I was able to reach it when i had pasted several articles inside a single post, creating a monstrous thread which was on the verge of breaching 70,000 characters.

Of course, the very same thread here on Zam, containing more than 70,000 characters in the end, did survive perfectly well. Which is one of the hidden reasons Zam rules Smiley: cool
#58 Aug 22 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mopdaddy wrote:

Putting words in people's mouth's shame on you. Every area a new player will need to post they have unlimited posts... Let me know what problems someone might have with this?



What about general disscusion where we can just share and have convos with other players? or what if i ahve a issue with a quest or a class question..? I get to ask the question. than hope the answers make sense to me because I might not have any posts left.. Seems like were being hand tied for no reason.
#59 Aug 22 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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It is kinda sad, while I understand they want people to use the search function and to try to be a little more productive in their posts than a "lol /10chars", it seems like a disservice to productive topics between people, and limits the ability of people to defend their posts or to follow up.

Than again ***** the official forums Zam is way more useful and the community is solid. Now if I can only fix my signature Smiley: nod
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#60 Aug 22 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Deletion of a thread/post will not allow you to obtain another chance to post either. But as stated earlier, editing a post does work after post limit reached.
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#61 Aug 22 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just had a thought about the 1000 character limit, which should have been mentioned in my prior post. The people most likely making the decisions on forums guidelines are Japanese and 1000 kanji characters (words) can say a **** of alot more than a 1000 characters in English. Sounds like something they overlooked.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 1:51pm by PyrielDD
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#62 Aug 22 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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The only reason I would feel the need to post at a first party forum is to report a bug. But my past experiences with posting bugs has jaded me. I highly doubt it's worthwhile for me to post a bug on a message board, even if it's hosted by the company that made and maintains the game.
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#63 Aug 22 2013 at 11:37 AM Rating: Default
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silverhope wrote:
Mopdaddy wrote:

Putting words in people's mouth's shame on you. Every area a new player will need to post they have unlimited posts... Let me know what problems someone might have with this?



What about general disscusion where we can just share and have convos with other players? or what if i ahve a issue with a quest or a class question..? I get to ask the question. than hope the answers make sense to me because I might not have any posts left.. Seems like were being hand tied for no reason.

I love when the hypothetical questions come b.v that is when you know people are grasping at straws. Also read again which areas have unlimited posts.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 1:40pm by Mopdaddy
#64 Aug 22 2013 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Sovjohn wrote:
You can't create a thread until you are lv. 25? Oh, come on...


I can see why they implemented this. How many times do we see sneaky gits who create a new level 1 character with zero posts just to troll the forums?
#65 Aug 22 2013 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
Magilicotti wrote:
Solonuke wrote:
When I was browsing the beta forums, I noticed a lot of threads that kept repeating the same topic that was raised many times before. I also noticed how staggering the post count in the English forums were. The English general had about 4000 pages while the Japanese general had about 400.


Okay forum mods can react to those situations. Heck, they can ban those that refuse to adhere to the forum polices and guidelines. How about they take corrective actions on those instead of punishing the rest?


After responding to a troll in the beta forums, his opinion was that FFXIV was going to fail through lack of players and it would go FTP in a very short time. Foolishly, I called him a low post count troll, who just wanted to make a name for himself or he would have posted in the myriad of threads made on the subject. The thread went on forever and he and others said much worse.

I played FFXI for 11 years, FFXIV for 6 months and never ever got even one GM visit nor ban, the comment above got me suspended for 270 hours and the threat of banning access to my FFXI forum my FFXIV forum and if I persist in my actions then a possible banning of my account entirely as these infractions are cumulative. I was crushed!

This is the corrective action that was taken against me!
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#66 Aug 22 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
Magilicotti wrote:
Solonuke wrote:
When I was browsing the beta forums, I noticed a lot of threads that kept repeating the same topic that was raised many times before. I also noticed how staggering the post count in the English forums were. The English general had about 4000 pages while the Japanese general had about 400.


Okay forum mods can react to those situations. Heck, they can ban those that refuse to adhere to the forum polices and guidelines. How about they take corrective actions on those instead of punishing the rest?


After responding to a troll in the beta forums, his opinion was that FFXIV was going to fail through lack of players and it would go FTP in a very short time. Foolishly, I called him a low post count troll, who just wanted to make a name for himself or he would have posted in the myriad of threads made on the subject. The thread went on forever and he and others said much worse.

I played FFXI for 11 years, FFXIV for 6 months and never ever got even one GM visit nor ban, the comment above got me suspended for 270 hours and the threat of banning access to my FFXI forum my FFXIV forum and if I persist in my actions then a possible banning of my account entirely as these infractions are cumulative. I was crushed!

This is the corrective action that was taken against me!


Hence the term "trolling" they were fishing for negativity and than when they hooked you they reported you. It is best to simply report people who troll rather than allow your self to be hooked.
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#67 Aug 22 2013 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
PyrielDD wrote:
ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
Magilicotti wrote:
Solonuke wrote:
When I was browsing the beta forums, I noticed a lot of threads that kept repeating the same topic that was raised many times before. I also noticed how staggering the post count in the English forums were. The English general had about 4000 pages while the Japanese general had about 400.


Okay forum mods can react to those situations. Heck, they can ban those that refuse to adhere to the forum polices and guidelines. How about they take corrective actions on those instead of punishing the rest?


After responding to a troll in the beta forums, his opinion was that FFXIV was going to fail through lack of players and it would go FTP in a very short time. Foolishly, I called him a low post count troll, who just wanted to make a name for himself or he would have posted in the myriad of threads made on the subject. The thread went on forever and he and others said much worse.

I played FFXI for 11 years, FFXIV for 6 months and never ever got even one GM visit nor ban, the comment above got me suspended for 270 hours and the threat of banning access to my FFXI forum my FFXIV forum and if I persist in my actions then a possible banning of my account entirely as these infractions are cumulative. I was crushed!

This is the corrective action that was taken against me!


Hence the term "trolling" they were fishing for negativity and than when they hooked you they reported you. It is best to simply report people who troll rather than allow your self to be hooked.



Trust me, lesson learned, I will never interact on Squeenix forums again.
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#68 Aug 22 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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If it's anything like the Beta forums, you can get around the character limit by posting something under 1000 characters, then editing it. When editing, you can enter as much as you like, plus it doesn't count toward your posts and is unaffected by the time limit. This is assuming it's the same infrastructure as the Beta forums, of course.
#69 Aug 22 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
PyrielDD wrote:
ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
Magilicotti wrote:
Solonuke wrote:
When I was browsing the beta forums, I noticed a lot of threads that kept repeating the same topic that was raised many times before. I also noticed how staggering the post count in the English forums were. The English general had about 4000 pages while the Japanese general had about 400.


Okay forum mods can react to those situations. Heck, they can ban those that refuse to adhere to the forum polices and guidelines. How about they take corrective actions on those instead of punishing the rest?


After responding to a troll in the beta forums, his opinion was that FFXIV was going to fail through lack of players and it would go FTP in a very short time. Foolishly, I called him a low post count troll, who just wanted to make a name for himself or he would have posted in the myriad of threads made on the subject. The thread went on forever and he and others said much worse.

I played FFXI for 11 years, FFXIV for 6 months and never ever got even one GM visit nor ban, the comment above got me suspended for 270 hours and the threat of banning access to my FFXI forum my FFXIV forum and if I persist in my actions then a possible banning of my account entirely as these infractions are cumulative. I was crushed!

This is the corrective action that was taken against me!


Hence the term "trolling" they were fishing for negativity and than when they hooked you they reported you. It is best to simply report people who troll rather than allow your self to be hooked.



Trust me, lesson learned, I will never interact on Squeenix forums again.


Okay, let me try to understand.

Some individual posted his opinion (I'm guessing in General Chat forum) on what he believed would happen with the game. You responded with name calling
Quote:
I called him a low post count troll
and proceed to berate his opinion
Quote:
who just wanted to make a name for himself or he would have posted in the myriad of threads made on the subject
instead of simply disagreeing with him while offering your counter opinions on why you thought he was wrong.

And... you wonder why you got in trouble with SE's forum moderators?

I'm not sure what you believe the definition of a forum troll is. But I believe you were acting as such.
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#70 Aug 22 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default
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Valkayree wrote:
Sovjohn wrote:
Square Enix has launched the FFXIV forums and closed down the beta ones, but...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/63381-Forum-Design-and-Features-Update-%28Aug.-22%29?p=1015217#post1015217

[b]It appears they are the most heavily restricted forums, for paying customers mind you (since you need an ARR character to post in there), in the history of gaming.



YAAAY! 3 posts per day! Smiley: banghead

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 9:49am by Valkayree

Ya I just ran into that, that is utter bs
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#71 Aug 22 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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rubina wrote:
How many times do we see sneaky gits who create a new level 1 character with zero posts just to troll the forums?
Conversely, when are people most likely to ask for assistance; When they're just starting or at a theoretical half-way point?

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 3:40pm by lolgaxe
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#72 Aug 22 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
rubina wrote:
How many times do we see sneaky gits who create a new level 1 character with zero posts just to troll the forums?
Conversely, when are people most likely to ask for assistance; When they're just starting or at a theoretical half-way point?


Oddly, it's a bit of a mercy they can't ask on the official forums unless it's on the support boards. They'd probably eaten for breakfast under the old rules.

And it's good news for Zam, at the very least.
#73 Aug 22 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
And it's good news for Zam, at the very least.


Give us your poor, your angry, your hungry trolls...?
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#74 Aug 22 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:

Which, on a side note, for all you crafters, beware the trap that is the Dullahan (and the Vangard for that matter). It is an awesome minion that is specifically designed to pull Darksteel out of the economy. Given the current difficulty of creating darksteel nuggets, the abundant supply of Darksteel ore and nuggets out there, and the OBSCENELY difficult process to get new ones, I have a feeling those pets are going to spike in price once people start running out, and the gear, which is still pretty good is going to also spike significantly.

Each Dullahan costs 9 Darksteel Ore (3 Nuggets) to make. I have not even seen the node that spawns that you can get Darksteel from, but it is a * node (for those that don't know, these nodes have a 10/20/30 minute apparently random spawn time, and require you use 300 GP before you can even start gathering from the node, but, you typically get 3x items per attempt, and get 1 additional attempt per node, and are level 50).

Hopefully the nodes appear in the Early Access... but I digress...


Offtopic but responding to this post.

Do not fear my friend. By the time you get to high level crafting with good gear and good materia, the GP limit will be easily met. The nodes may appear random but actually pop at the same time (Eorzean clock) every day in roughly the same area. Using Kings Yield and other skills you can increase the collection rate. If anything, this ore is even easier to get hold of now than it was in 1.0. I have about 4 stacks of ore and lots of Nuggets on my legacy character and I am concerned that these have been devalued by these changes.

I played a bit of lvl 50 gatherer on my legacy character in beta 3 and am hoping they make collecting the ore (and other starred items) more difficult. This is, afterall, the reward for reaching 50 with a gathering class.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 4:57pm by HallieXIV
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#75 Aug 22 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
And it's good news for Zam, at the very least.


Give us your poor, your angry, your hungry trolls...?


Is that the Statue of Levity I see in the distance? Smiley: clown
#76 Aug 22 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
Magilicotti wrote:
ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
PyrielDD wrote:
ragamuffin the Fussy wrote:
Magilicotti wrote:
Solonuke wrote:
When I was browsing the beta forums, I noticed a lot of threads that kept repeating the same topic that was raised many times before. I also noticed how staggering the post count in the English forums were. The English general had about 4000 pages while the Japanese general had about 400.


Okay forum mods can react to those situations. Heck, they can ban those that refuse to adhere to the forum polices and guidelines. How about they take corrective actions on those instead of punishing the rest?


After responding to a troll in the beta forums, his opinion was that FFXIV was going to fail through lack of players and it would go FTP in a very short time. Foolishly, I called him a low post count troll, who just wanted to make a name for himself or he would have posted in the myriad of threads made on the subject. The thread went on forever and he and others said much worse.

I played FFXI for 11 years, FFXIV for 6 months and never ever got even one GM visit nor ban, the comment above got me suspended for 270 hours and the threat of banning access to my FFXI forum my FFXIV forum and if I persist in my actions then a possible banning of my account entirely as these infractions are cumulative. I was crushed!

This is the corrective action that was taken against me!


Hence the term "trolling" they were fishing for negativity and than when they hooked you they reported you. It is best to simply report people who troll rather than allow your self to be hooked.



Trust me, lesson learned, I will never interact on Squeenix forums again.


Okay, let me try to understand.

Some individual posted his opinion (I'm guessing in General Chat forum) on what he believed would happen with the game. You responded with name calling
Quote:
I called him a low post count troll
and proceed to berate his opinion
Quote:
who just wanted to make a name for himself or he would have posted in the myriad of threads made on the subject
instead of simply disagreeing with him while offering your counter opinions on why you thought he was wrong.

And... you wonder why you got in trouble with SE's forum moderators?

I'm not sure what you believe the definition of a forum troll is. But I believe you were acting as such.




To some extent I agree I should have said Please post this in the 200 + Threads on the subject even though he was being an utter troll and was excellent in goading people to react to his taunting enough said, however usually one receives a warning or a short 1-2 day ban, what I got was draconian by any measure. I also will point out the frustrations of watching these people posting the same negative rubbish about FFXIV several times a day in new threads and no forum mod in sight.

I disagree with you on 1 point though, I am not never have and never will be a forum troll sir.
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#77 Aug 22 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
I got permabanned from the forums for posting this on a Unicorn related thread:



Mods ain't got no @#%^in' sense of humour.

Anyway, good riddance.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2013 5:38pm by Onionthiefx
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#78 Aug 22 2013 at 4:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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To quote myself:

Hyrist wrote:


NA Beta forums was a cesspit. An absolute festering pile of vocal excrement rolled in the constant ******* and moaning. Dumped upon by the constant waste of repeat posts and personal attacks.


Golgothan himself took one look at the Beta forums and went 'Nope.'

If people could learn to control themselves, maybe we wouldn't need these restrictions. You're lucky it's not me in charge, I'd be **** right draconian.


A Realm Reborn's Beta forums was by far the worst I've experienced, and I've done several Betas. I even ghost the League of Legends boards and they've been better. The post restrictions are to keep the flood volume of completely unnecessary posts down, and it is us, the community that are responsible for that sort of lockdown. We couldn't be have like adults, so we're being treated like children.

Again, I would have done much worse, given I was in that sort of position. Like, Salvage-dupe level purge. The forums would be littered with bodies impaled by my Ban-lance and left to bleed and rot as examples of whoever else decides to be liberal in their interpretation of the rules - and this would be litterally represented by their avatars in game, as there would be zone dedicated to seeing these banned accounts. (And yes that means forum bans carry over to your character. Can't condone yourself in the forums with civility, there's no reason you can be trusted in the game to do so.) Post at your own peril... Muwahahahahahaaha!

*ahem*

Yeah. So, be kind with your criticism of the forum standards. We earned those restrictions.
#79 Aug 22 2013 at 11:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I disagree with you on 1 point though, I am not never have and never will be a forum troll sir.


Oh, I apologize. I was not calling you a forum troll, but only seemingly acting as one indirectly.

However this is exactly how I perceive the forums to be moderated. The forum rules and guidelines are clearly stuck on top of every forum category. They tell you to please read before posting. Forum rules and guidelines are virtually identical to all forums around the internet. There is no excuse to not have self awareness on what constitutes breaching said rules. Do they need to Ban you from the game for it? No, but forum bans, yes.

Problem solved. Trolls and abusers go away, and the rest of us that adhere to the rules get to post and discuss as we see fit. We're being punished preemptively.

Anyways, I am repeating myself on the issue. Point has been made, and opinions expressed.
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#80 Aug 23 2013 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
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Certainly seems like a system rooted in curbing trolling and harassment, which I can't entirely blame them for. On the other hand, I don't think automation makes good moderation in this case. Quality is otherwise subjective with detractors often being a part of a problem either literally or through apathy.

Edit: Catching up the tail end of the thread...
Quote:
And... you wonder why you got in trouble with SE's forum moderators?

Sometimes one must fight fire with fire, especially when the trolls try their damnedest to elude moderation by hitting thesaurus or vaguely commenting on a hot button issue. In this particular case, however, it carries a bit of that "backseat mod" feel with the individual who got suspended actually trying to defend SE from what is quite obviously a troll-bait subject and outright denigrating the integrity of the product they're aiming to put out with implications of failure. This, in turn, is where context is important and moderation having to do more than just reading an individual post that got reported for problematic behavior.

I never got a suspension on the XI boards when I played, and while some folks basically wore it as a badge of honor for bragging rights, I had two instances of posts being removed in confronting habitual asshats within the RDM forums and even calling out a guy for stalking my posts (A good reason to not allow extensive post history searching) and being blatantly antagonistic about it. Pretty much any time there was a post from anyone they disagreed with, they'd link it on another site and you see a number of them swoop in to try and prove themselves "right" on what was ultimately opinion. In our case, it was basically, "RDM melee sucks and needs help, here's why, please fix it." and even if they agreed for our reasons why it sucked, they'd make up the most absolute batsh*t excuses for why it shouldn't be done or why certain ideas wouldn't work (This gets especially funny when our ideas wound up on future jobs). And certainly when they were wrong on a game mechanic, they would never admit to it or continue to insist everyone was just a "stupid n00b" or other more colorful rhetoric. Call me draconic, iron-fisted, or whatever, but I would've banned those guys very early into their shenanigans and not simply because we had our own disagreements. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I'm also a big proponent of the philosophy of doing unto others as you'd have others do unto you. The gloves simply come off when they choose to abandon civility and I have no qualms in simply persisting until they're either run out or get bored. I'm sure they'll consider it a victory of its own, but I'm just too much of a white knight personality to really condone what's basically cyber bullying within the MMO sphere.

More to the subject, however, taking in the broader context would've yielded a simple removal of thread were I ruling on it with a warning to the OP (unless he had priors) with the individual who got suspended really facing no penalty other than the post poofing with the thread. People are sick of trolling and the seeming advocating of hostility on the net through inaction or even tricking out-of-touch moderation. And so, the individual now wishes to never return there. A win for the community or a win for the trolls? Man, @#%^ that.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 2:45am by Seriha
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#81 Aug 23 2013 at 12:12 AM Rating: Good
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Did you have to resubscribe to the Lodestone? Its treating me like I don't exist...


I am assuming so as I also had to register a second time. I like that I got a second chance to change my login name and what not. (I didn't, but the option is nice)
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#82 Aug 23 2013 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Zam has a better interface and community imo. Those restrictions seem like they will keep trash out of official forums though.

BTW onionthief that video is priceless I cant believe you actually got banned for that in a unicorn thread lol.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 2:14am by Waffleswagon

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 2:19am by Waffleswagon
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#83 Aug 23 2013 at 1:10 AM Rating: Decent
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@Waffleswagon: "Zam has a better interface and community imo. Those restrictions seem like they will keep trash out of official forums though."

I agree ZAM has a better interface and community without a doubt.

However, all I see currently on the official forums is the opposite of keeping trash out, but filling it with the same. The only players who can create threads there currently are legacy players and most of the threads I read on my server section and some others, were filled with foul-mouthed and extremely rude ignoramus threads lording their legacy status about as if it makes sense to brag about buying a broken game 3 years ago.
#84 Aug 23 2013 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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So I just registered here and it looks like I'm going to be staying here. I was reading the official forums earlier and wondering why it looked so utterly deserted, then when i tried to register it seems I couldn't because I don't have a character! I'm assuming I won't need to pay $30 and a $15 monthly sub to use these forums, correct? ;) I can't believe they're hitting new customers so hard with the stick though. "Be careful about what you post, young one. You sit down and be quiet when adults are around."
#85 Aug 23 2013 at 3:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sometimes one must fight fire with fire, especially when the trolls try their damnedest to elude moderation by hitting thesaurus or vaguely commenting on a hot button issue. In this particular case, however, it carries a bit of that "backseat mod" feel with the individual who got suspended actually trying to defend SE from what is quite obviously a troll-bait subject and outright denigrating the integrity of the product they're aiming to put out with implications of failure. This, in turn, is where context is important and moderation having to do more than just reading an individual post that got reported for problematic behavior.


I don't know. 'Do unto others what you want done unto you' would be a better approach than to 'fight fire with fire' in my mind. The term troll itself has become something to throw at one another when they don't agree with the opinions each other express. The backseat moderation point can be seen here to a degree with the post rating system, albeit it's more of policing your own type thing.
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#86 Aug 23 2013 at 3:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Are the official forums really as bad as everyone says? I mean this is the internet, one expects trolls and crybabies and such. Then again I only go on forums when I have no game to play, so I doubt I will be there to post much outside of the usual newb questions thing.
#87 Aug 23 2013 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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KettShee wrote:
Are the official forums really as bad as everyone says? I mean this is the internet, one expects trolls and crybabies and such. Then again I only go on forums when I have no game to play, so I doubt I will be there to post much outside of the usual newb questions thing.


The 1.0 forums weren't too bad, I actually enjoyed myself on there, but the beta forums, as other people have said were a cesspit of trolls and spammers (we literally had over 50 threads on f2p)

Now people are saying these restrictions will stop spam, I say it won't the reason the beta forums were so bad was there were a lot of people who will never play the game, who plain didn't like the game, think they are the center of the world, etc etc, they added these limits to the beta forums, and because of the before mentioned reasons they didn't worry about using up thread or post allowances they just wanted to troll.

Now look at the new lodestone forums, we already need a character and service account to log on, therefore we will be getting people who want to have active discussions rather than mindless trolling. Now if you think more into it, let's say Fernhawles posts a great lore post (like he always does) and I want to discuss that, then I pop over to general and find another post I want to reply to and I get hit with my 15 minute cooldown, then within this 15 minutes 2 more threads I want to reply to pop up, so I have to choose out of three posts to reply to.

This example is how it affects normal players rather than trolls and spammers, I want to discuss something and I can't entirely because of the restrictions SE has put in place.
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#88 Aug 23 2013 at 5:27 AM Rating: Good
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GreyPowervan wrote:
So I just registered here and it looks like I'm going to be staying here. I was reading the official forums earlier and wondering why it looked so utterly deserted, then when i tried to register it seems I couldn't because I don't have a character! I'm assuming I won't need to pay $30 and a $15 monthly sub to use these forums, correct? ;) I can't believe they're hitting new customers so hard with the stick though. "Be careful about what you post, young one. You sit down and be quiet when adults are around."


The purpose of the account-required lock-down in the forums is to keep feedback focused to those who are actually playing the game. It is also a courtesy for those playing the game not to have to argue with say, an armchair critic from the outside looking in intentionally antagonizing their player base.

It also presents free sight bots from abusing the site outright.

Of course, you always have the problem that, if they ever institute a free trial, or during the free period for those who sign up, but have not yet paid, that they simply come in and become incredibly negative on the onset without actually playing with any depth and dedication to the game. Massive amounts of negative feedback about 'shallow gameplay'. was being generated from accounts that had sub level 15 characters in the earlier stages of beta when the level cap was 35.

There's no mistaking it, the lockdowns on posting is strict. But Square Enix is not the villain here. This situation was created by the player base who could not behave themselves and the growing concern about being able to create a quality community enviroment in an increasingly hostile internet culture.
#89 Aug 23 2013 at 5:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
There's no mistaking it, the lockdowns on posting is strict. But Square Enix is not the villain here. This situation was created by the player base who could not behave themselves and the growing concern about being able to create a quality community enviroment in an increasingly hostile internet culture.


It was the trolls who will never see any more of ARR that have caused this, not the players, it's like football (soccer for Americans) hooligans, they aren't fans of the game, they just go to matches to cause trouble, they aren't going to enter the stadium most of the time, and who gets punished, it's the real fans who get banned from matched, stricter searches traveling internationally when a match is on etc etc.

Do you really think the people who will be playing see the game as a failure, or the people who will be paying will want the game to go f2p?
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#90 Aug 23 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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scrish wrote:


Do you really think the people who will be playing see the game as a failure, or the people who will be paying will want the game to go f2p?


You've not looked much at FFXI's official boards. Face it, we love drama. Some people just maintain a subscription and never really get too deep in the game, and still criticize venomously.

I put nothing past the internet on account of common sense. It doesn't exist in the dark recesses of the community. Rokien is the ultimate example of that. Payed for a game he hated, criticized it for months on end, posted a grand total of nearly two hundred threads, the vast majority of them was naught more than an unsubstantiated opinion expressing his doubts over every single mechanic and feature feasible. And he had to pay for that access in the official boards where the majority of his threads where created.

And his case is not unique, just the most extreme.
#91 Aug 23 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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I know this is more of a rant thread, I'm just thinking it's fair to point out that so far the ARR Forum is a much better place than the Beta forum was.

For the most part, the posters so far seem to be having reasonable discussions, and some are even polite.

Perhaps the restrictions are at least partly helpful?
#92 Aug 23 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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@zosimo good point about the legacy status players, I didn't think about that. Hopefully it all evens out as the rest of the community levels and is able to post more. As far as I can see, Zam>official forums in many ways!
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#93 Aug 23 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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/posts once tries to post on another forum YOU HAVE REACHED YOUR LIMIT FOR THE DAY /googles ffxiv forums
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#94 Aug 23 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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The thing is, I've already paid SE, I bought the game. I still can't use the forums. Couldn't they just detect if you had FFXIV or something? Either way, it helped me find better forums, so whatever.

Also, the main problem I see with the post cooldown is most people don't spend 15 minutes just waiting to post on a forum. I know if I couldn't post when I saw something I wanted to post on, I wouldn't wait. I'd just leave.

The time limit + the posting restriction is actually crazy. If I have someone I want to help, I can post an answer for them. Then, I'm limited to participating in less threads for the rest of the day. So silly.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 1:13pm by GreyPowervan
#95 Aug 23 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Sovjohn wrote:
Square Enix has launched the FFXIV forums and closed down the beta ones, but...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/63381-Forum-Design-and-Features-Update-%28Aug.-22%29?p=1015217#post1015217

It appears they are the most heavily restricted forums, for paying customers mind you (since you need an ARR character to post in there), in the history of gaming.

Please participate in the first thread created against these limits, here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/63446-Forum-posting-restrictions

And also spread the word via Facebook / Twitter and the like.

They are entitled to put limits in place to limit abuse / spam / server load, but not these kind of limits.

I hope you agree with me and let them know this is ridiculous. Cheers!

PS: The above is a personal post and does not mean to reflect Zam's opinion on the matter, or what have you. Smiley: grin


I can't register them because I 'don't have a character', because they gave me the wrong preorder promotion code, so I can't tell them anything in tech support. Its frustrating.
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#96 Aug 23 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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GreyPowervan wrote:
The thing is, I've already paid SE, I bought the game. I still can't use the forums. Couldn't they just detect if you had FFXIV or something? Either way, it helped me find better forums, so whatever.


This leaves a bad first impression, in my opinion.

You may be a stranger to the way Square Enix's forums system's work, so let me be clear. If you haven't logged into the game, you haven't played the game. Therefire, even if you are a purchaser of the game, you are not a player. When you log in, the forum servers get flagged to say you've played, then you earn your rights to post depending on your max character's level.

First restriction's always been in place since FFXI's official boards came up. Nothing new there. Online a single purchase game, FFXIV is an online title that changes with each patch, so opinions are going to shift and change as well.

Quote:
Also, the main problem I see with the post cooldown is most people don't spend 15 minutes just waiting to post on a forum. I know if I couldn't post when I saw something I wanted to post on, I wouldn't wait. I'd just leave.

The time limit + the posting restriction is actually crazy. If I have someone I want to help, I can post an answer for them. Then, I'm limited to participating in less threads for the rest of the day. So silly.


And that's what they want you to do. Instead of knee-jerking a post at every opportunity, they want you to premeditate what you are saying, think on it first, then post. If you don't have 15 minutes to do that between posts, then you probably don't have anything unique past another person who could just as easily blow their 15 minute cooldown saying for you.

It's forcing you (because the majority of the populace doesn't seem to have the self control to do it themselves) to invest in your posts, with time, and with thought.

You think it's silly, and that's fine. I happen to disagree, because I think it's more silly, more crazy, more stupid for people to have free reign to act the way they do on the internet. Restrictions aren't new, just new to the field, and honestly I'm interested to see if it helps any.

The first couple of generations of the internet were too passive when it came to regulating conduct, because we were all relishing the 'true freedom' banter we shot back and forth at each other. Sadly, doing that now has made the newer generations take such things to the extreme. There's almost no civility, no pretext of actually having a constructive discussion. Just screaming opposing opinions at each other... kinda like how politics have dissolved into here in the US.

It's a sad state of affairs, really, and a far larger problem than being forced to consider yourself before you post.

Grandmomma wrote:

I can't register them because I 'don't have a character', because they gave me the wrong preorder promotion code, so I can't tell them anything in tech support. Its frustrating.


I bet. But they're aware of it, they mentioned they wouldn't be able to address it before the old forums went down. Some people I know have the issue as well.

I'm more of the opinion they should have kept the Beta Forums open until about a week after launch, then change up the restrictions.

Yoshida and the development staff of the game itself are ahead of the company when it comes to getting their act together. I wish Yoshida's ideals would brush off on the rest of Square Enix sooner, rather than later.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 3:33pm by Hyrist
#97 Aug 23 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist, there are plenty of other forums that work just fine with the fact that you can post anything you want, and those forums are FREE. If people posting stupid things gets out of hand in the new forum, they can simply flag THAT person's game account to have less posts, or even ban them permanently. Punishing everyone for the actions of a few is one of the most idiotic things I can think of.
#98 Aug 23 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Magilicotti wrote:
Quote:
Sometimes one must fight fire with fire, especially when the trolls try their damnedest to elude moderation by hitting thesaurus or vaguely commenting on a hot button issue. In this particular case, however, it carries a bit of that "backseat mod" feel with the individual who got suspended actually trying to defend SE from what is quite obviously a troll-bait subject and outright denigrating the integrity of the product they're aiming to put out with implications of failure. This, in turn, is where context is important and moderation having to do more than just reading an individual post that got reported for problematic behavior.


I don't know. 'Do unto others what you want done unto you' would be a better approach than to 'fight fire with fire' in my mind. The term troll itself has become something to throw at one another when they don't agree with the opinions each other express. The backseat moderation point can be seen here to a degree with the post rating system, albeit it's more of policing your own type thing.

Obviously getting aggressive and fighting back isn't my first preference, but I view it as better than just rolling over and doing nothing in absence of a legitimate moderating presence. When I see someone who perpetually goes around treating others like garbage, I will have zero inclination to treat them as a saint worthy of patience and understanding. This isn't actual speaking where the slip of the tongue might lead to some misinterpretation. It's text we can pause, review, and edit to convey our thoughts. I won't deny sometimes being lazy about that due to fatigue or hurrying on to other things, but in a situation where someone might have a legit question and your response is something like, "God, just read the sticky!" or "There are a hundred other threads on this, read one of those!" instead of just answering the question without being an ***, then you're being one of those types that's ultimately worsening a community instead of strengthening it. This type of restraint can also be exercised in simply not viewing posts you know won't interest you (Don't want to help a newbie? Don't enter a newbie question thread..), to wit I'd also posit that it's good posting manner to subject a topic accurately to your actual post. Something not everyone does, often quite deliberately. Even this is something moderation can help improve.

Zam isn't perfect. I've had my share of snafus with people here, quite often doing what I mentioned in the last paragraph. For those who frequented XI in the past, Rog stands out as a good example of the wrong type of poster to be left unchained with karma meaning zilch. Sadly, it took him harassing Catwho over an RL pic before he finally got the ban stick, but I honestly can't imagine how many people he scared off with his bad attitude, misdirection, and occasional misinformation. Yet some people thought he was Jesus, too.
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#99 Aug 23 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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GreyPowervan wrote:
Hyrist, there are plenty of other forums that work just fine with the fact that you can post anything you want, and those forums are FREE. If people posting stupid things gets out of hand in the new forum, they can simply flag THAT person's game account to have less posts, or even ban them permanently. Punishing everyone for the actions of a few is one of the most idiotic things I can think of.


Apples and oranges, and a giant red herring at that.

Those forums work fine for their individual contexts, and their posts.

FFXIV Beta forums have PROVEN to be out of control, you can't argue that, even if you don't agree with the methods.

As far as punishing the whole for the sins of a few, that would be implying that the number who were among the guilty party was a sire few. It was not, it was extensive, repetitive, and distributed among many people.

I'm sorry, but no matter how many times you feel compelled to restate your option on this, I'm not going to agree to it. We dun goofed in the way we conducted ourselves on the Beta boards. Even if we were perfect in this, there are other, compelling reasons why people should have to log in, and commit their characters in order to have refrence in a source that should be, essentially, a hub for feedback.

You want a FFXIV community center, use the Lodestone. We do not need yet another Bioware Social Network/ League of Legends forums / Virtually any Blizzard Boards in existence/ and most especially not another FFXIV Beta boards.

I'm fine with accepting/rejecting self-expressions here, it fits in line quite perfectly with predictions I made about what would happen to these boards, once Square Enix started lockdowns. (note, not a happy prediction but one of many accurate ones I've made of SE to date.) When I go to FFXIV boards, I want to be speaking with players who a dedicated enough not to be dejected by all the hurtles. It keeps the peanut gallery commentary down.

What will keep these boards civil? The fact that there's some level of self-moderation as well as attentive Admins such as Wint and SovJon- which you can't expect out of a company such as Square Enix - as their positions are more muddied than the underpaid, mostly volunteer positions our admins have. Zam itself is also much smaller and not an officiator of anything.

You can't do that sort of personal attentiveness in a company like that - I would like it, but the level of attentiveness needed isn't a justifiable paid position for the sheer volume differences you'd get from FFXIV boards (or any official MMO boards) and a site like Zam. That's not even considering how much scruitny a company could get for the misdeeds of a staff member.

So the workload needs to be reduced somewhat so your in-house staff can moderate as a secondary or tertiary task.

Now, if ZAM made a game, and had boards about said game here, you'd be sure there would be some forum changes to handle all the feedback.

The Official Boards isn't the only boards with this sort of wall either. Something Awful has a pay wall. NeoGaf requires you to sign up with a paid email account. FFXI boards require your character to have logged in within the last 30 days, regardless if you've an open subscription (I think FFXIV boards still have that restriction, mind you.) in order to post. And while scorned for it on the outside, those on the inside of the community are generally a whole lot happier for it.

If you don't like it, that's up to you. It's entirely your prerogative. But don't compare an official site to that of a fan site, the level of pressure is an entirely different beast altogether.
#100 Aug 24 2013 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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There ARE official site that have a lack of restrictions and still work well.

Edited, Aug 24th 2013 3:32am by GreyPowervan
#101 Aug 24 2013 at 1:32 AM Rating: Default
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