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How you are possibly being manipulated into liking this gameFollow

#1 Aug 23 2013 at 6:06 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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One thing I always notice around the launch of new MMOs, is an influx of people who argue that the game is great and will be successful, regardless of logic or reason.

Some of the most common arguments are as follows:
"We just saw a beta so far, the real game will have more and be better"
"The problems were supposed to happen, it was beta testing"
"Problem X isn't really a problem, because I didn't suffer from it" (even when 20,000 other people did)
"20,000 people unable to log in is only a small minority of the game"
"I -trust- them to do a good job"

4 months later most of these arguments would seem silly. Especially when almost none are fixed and the game is turning from subscription to F2P or shutting down. I personally think FFXIV will be fine, but I still want to explain how many people are being manipulated.

In reality, there are countless ways this is happening, but in order to save time I'm going to stick to the one that I feel probably affects the most people. I will also over-simplify things for understanding, and stick to the less-complex 'classical' arguments (for any psychologists out there). If I don't get rated to oblivion I might add on a few other ways.

Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance is the discomfort you feel when you experience 2 conflicting cognitions. These cognitions could be beliefs, ideas, reactions, etc. Social psychologists have demonstrated that people have some sort of motivational drive to avoid this cognitive dissonance. And this is generally done by altering cognitions to reach some sort of 'equilibrium'. Now in reality things get quite a bit more complicated than this, and there have been arguments over whether or not people are aiming for equilibrium or instead interpreting their own behaviour and interpreting what actions may have caused it (self-perception theory). But either way, this general idea seems to be affecting many people (and science would say is for sure affecting them)

The best way to explain this is through a few classic studies

The Child-Toy Study
This was carried out in 1963 by Carlsmith and Aronson
Children were brought to a room with a bunch of toys (one at a time)
Half were told there would be a mild punishment if they played with a specific toy (lets say a nerf gun)
The other half were told there would be a strong/severe punishment for playing with the toy
None of the kids touched the toy
Later, the kids were told they could play with any toy (including the previously forbidden one)
In line with this theory, the children who were told there would be a mild punishment were much less likely to touch the forbidden toy.
Why? Because the kids who were told of a severe punishment -knew- that the punishment was the reason they didn't touch the toy
On the other hand, the kids who would only suffer a mild punishment had to internally justify why they didn't risk the mild punishment. And that justification would basically take the form of "i don't like the toy as much"

Now I realize people are skeptical. So lets move to college students (or young adults)
In 1959 a very very famous study by Festinger and Carlsmith looked at college/university students
They had the subjects do an incredibly boring task for an hour or so
For example, put pegs onto a board, then take them off, then put them on again, then take them off
And then turn every peg counter clockwise 1 quarter, and repeat, and repeat.
It was meant to be boring and annoying
At the end, the researchers asked the subjects to lie to the next student (really an actor) and tell them the experiment was fun and interesting for money. The actor even said something along the lines of "my friend told me it's really boring and I should avoid it." So the subjects really had to try to convince the actor it was fun.
Some were paid $20 to lie
Some were paid $1 to lie
and Some were not asked to lie or talk to someone
A week later, the subjects were asked to rate how interesting the task was.
Those in the control group who weren't asked, and those paid $20, rated it boring
Those in the $1 group rated it considerably better
Why? Because those in the $1 group had to justify why they lied to someone for only $1. If you're getting paid $20 ( a lot at the time ), you can justify it by saying "well i got paid well to lie." But $1 wasn't that much. So to make yourself feel better about lying for only $1, you trick yourself into believing that the boring experience was actually better than it is.

So how does this pertain to FFXIV? Well this next study on post-decisional dissonance will explain how.
In 1968 Knox and Inkster went to a race track in British Columbia
They went up to 69 people in line to place a $2 bet (in the next 30 sec) and asked them to rate their horse's chance of winning
They then went up to 72 people who had just placed a bet 30 seconds ago and asked them to rate their horse's chance of winning
Can you guess the results?
People about to place a bet rated their horses chances as 3.48/7 which was a fair chance of winning
Those who had just placed a bet reduced post-decisional dissonance by rating their horse higher (4.81/7), justifying to themselves that they picked a winner
So within 30 seconds of placing a bet, people on average increased their belief that their horse was a winner.
This has similarly been shown to happen with voting.

And all three of these studies have been repeated many many times (probably over 300 times with different variants)
Always getting the same results (at least in the west. Eastern culture is a bit different)

So how are you being manipulated?
Pre-Orders.
By having you pre-order a game (and bribing you to do it with bonuses), SE, and any other video game companies using the method, are creating post-decisional dissonance. In other words, you are subconsciously being manipulated into liking the game more, because you invested in it.

Further, by letting you beta test, especially in open beta, you are investing time into the game (learning mechanics, making friends, etc), further creating this post-decisional dissonance.

This is why open beta wasn't "just a test."
Open betas are designed to make you want to buy a game because you have already invested time in creating a character and leveling it up.

Many of the arguments made on these and other forums show clear signs of cognitive dissonance.

So far, based on logic, no one should have high hopes for this game. 1.0 crumbled, and 2.0 has had a massive share of obvious problems, days before tomorrows release. Put another way, if a computer were judging this games success based on logic alone, it would take a very creative algorithm to get the game a decent rating.

Personally, I have very high hopes. And I realize I've been influenced by my legacy status, my preorders, my investment in my character, etc.
I really hope the game succeeds. And I really hope it's a lot of fun.

But please just be aware that you may not have consciously decided based on logic and facts that this game will be a hit. Maybe, like the majority of the population, you've been influenced by the tactical marketing institutions of our modern day. And if that's the case, take the game for what it is, instead of hyping it up to be much better than reality.

I hope this post didn't offend anyone. I just thought some people might be interested in the marketing tactics that make games a success.







#2 Aug 23 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Default
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So everyone, including yourself, are cognitively incompetent for "falling for" the pre-order tactic?
#3 Aug 23 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So how are you being manipulated?
Pre-Orders.
By having you pre-order a game (and bribing you to do it with bonuses), SE, and any other video game companies using the method, are creating post-decisional dissonance. In other words, you are subconsciously being manipulated into liking the game more, because you invested in it.


Or maybe, just maybe, I liked the game originally which is the reason why I pre-ordered. Meaning the fact that I pre-ordered had absolutely no bearing on me liking the game. I played FFXI, I played beta, I like FF, and I enjoyed this game up to this point.
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#4 Aug 23 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Default
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cramerb535 wrote:
So everyone, including yourself, are cognitively incompetent for "falling for" the pre-order tactic?


No... human brains are designed to do this. It's a result of millions of years of evolution from a brain stem in a fish to a competent and cognitive functioning brain that has conscious thought.

No one is cognitively incompetent because this is a -good- thing for survival. It helps people cope with extreme situations and quickly adapt to novel ones.

There is a really cool experiment that shows this (and essentially gets a ton of people to choose eating a worm over doing a simple task) You can check it out here: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/32/1/92/



Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:18pm by Azurymber
#5 Aug 23 2013 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Interesting but it doesn't really matter why I like it more so long as my brain thinks i do.
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#6 Aug 23 2013 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I played the beta and had fun. Therefore I guess I was tricked into thinking I was having fun by having fun.

**** you SE, it's like you did it to me on purpose, just so I'd buy the game!

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:33pm by KarlHungis
#7Azurymber, Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 6:24 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There is a difference between liking something
#8 Aug 23 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Thanks, I needed a refresher in Psych 1.

Although some people may have been "minipulated" in to liking this game, I and many others were not. Do I think it's better than WoW? No, not really. I'm tired of WoW though and I like Final Fantasy games and their art style and music. I've played many MMOs since FFXI, F2P and P2P, and so far I've enjoyed this one the most outside of FFXI and WoW. It all depends on what people are expecting. I'm not expecting this game to give me the same emotions and excitement I felt from the aforementioned games. For one, I'm older now and not as easily stimulated. I'm looking forward to having a new game to play, and this is that new game.

I pre-ordered because I wanted the art book, soundtrack, and a pretty box to look at. I didn't enjoy 1.0, but I still like having it in my collection of FF games. As far as my investment in my character is concerned; I care so little about it, I'm rerolling from level 1 to play with my friends on Ultros and deleting her.

I'm not sure what you were trying to minipulate us in to thinking with this long winded post, but I doubt many people are going to agree with this. It's not some hive mind mentality in this case either; some people actually just enjoy the game, flaws and all. That may be a bit hard for you to believe, because perhaps you feel let down already.

*not everything can be explained by a book or a $200 community college course.


Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:27pm by Transmigration
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#9 Aug 23 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Azurymber wrote:

[...]
I hope this post didn't offend anyone. I just thought some people might be interested in the marketing tactics that make games a success.


No offense to you, but it's starting to get pretty offensive seeing a doom and gloom thread from you that subtly condemns everyone who likes the game as being manupulated, covered in a wall of text. You sound like you potentially like the game but are feeling incredibly insecure about it, and thus have the need to put yourself down massively to justify things. Please save the doomsaying for a month or so AFTER the game is released, hmmm?
#10 Aug 23 2013 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Azurymber wrote:


I will like this game simply because of the world. To me, that's all I need. I can fish and gather, and I'm happy.
But that doesn't mean I'm going to go against logic and assume this will be a WoW Killer





Can you please find me a thread on these forums exclaiming ARR to be a WoW killer? No one but an idiot would think anything is going to knock over that monster at this point. WoW will kill itself and is on it's way in doing so. We don't need an essay to see that. Maybe this should have been posted in the official forums. Folks around here, except for a few, are generally a notch above the average idiot on the intellect scale. Feel free to disagree.
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#11 Aug 23 2013 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's insulting that you consciously decided that the enjoyment I receive from this game is based upon manipulation.

You don't like the game. That's fine. If we all liked the same things what a bland world it would be.

You speak of time investment yet here you are dropping psychosis and diatribes over something that is considered a leisurely pursuit.

Time to move on. But thank you for the sophomore psyc major hypothesis. Tell your instructor I think Dali is cool too.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:35pm by ShindaUsagi

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:59pm by ShindaUsagi
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#12 Aug 23 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Default
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Transmigration the Charming wrote:
Thanks, I needed a refresher in Psych 1.

Although some people may have been "minipulated" in to liking this game, I and many others were not. Do I think it's better than WoW? No, not really. I'm tired of WoW though and I like Final Fantasy games and their art style and music. I've played many MMOs since FFXI, F2P and P2P, and so far I've enjoyed this one the most outside of FFXI and WoW. It all depends on what people are expecting. I'm not expecting this game to give me the same emotions and excitement I felt from the aforementioned games. For one, I'm older now and not as easily stimulated. I'm looking forward to having a new game to play, and this is that new game.

I pre-ordered because I wanted the art book, soundtrack, and a pretty box to look at. I didn't enjoy 1.0, but I still like having it in my collection of FF games. As far as my investment in my character is concerned; I care so little about it, I'm rerolling from level 1 to play with my friends on Ultros and deleting her.

I'm not sure what you were trying to minipulate us in to thinking with this long winded post, but I doubt many people are going to agree with this. It's not some hive mind mentality in this case either; some people actually just enjoy the game, flaws and all. That may be a bit hard for you to believe, because perhaps you feel let down already.



I posted a thread called "How you are possibly being manipulated into liking this game"
I used the word "May" multiple times

It's pretty clear I didn't mean everyone.

And I provided multiple experiments tested many many times to demonstrate that nearly everyone (or at least more than 50% of people) will be affected by what I posted.

That doesn't mean everyone will.
But I find it funny that it so quickly got sub-defaulted with numerous people trying to justify they aren't affected.

One of the reasons marketing works so well is because even when people are shown evidence that they don't make conscious decisions, they reject it and desperately try to prove to themselves that they aren't being manipulated.

Of course many people have other reasons to play the game. and if you aren't screaming "best game ever, better than every other MMO, no problems at all" you probably aren't strongly effected. But lots of people are.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:32pm by Azurymber
#13 Aug 23 2013 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Actually a study done in 2012 showed that ".. playing music reduces the development of cognitive dissonance."

Furthermore, it would seem that you copied the Wikipedia page in regards to the theory you just posted about. Were you going to plagiarize the whole thing for us, or do you have any thoughts of your own on the matter?

What a pointless post.
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#14 Aug 23 2013 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
and if you aren't screaming "best game ever, better than every other MMO, no problems at all" you probably aren't strongly effected. But lots of people are.


Great, go present your theory to them. They'll love to learn about how they don't really like the game they like.
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#15 Aug 23 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
Consider your audience before you present something so general then.

"How some people can be manipulated" and "How YOU are possibly being manipulated" are two very different openers.

I think the word you're looking for is misled. For example, I wasn't manipulated in to thinking D3 was going to be the greatest thing since D2. I was however misled in to thinking it would possess the same level of freedom and creativity in builds and so forth. This led me to become excited for a game I thought would give me the same amount of enjoyment D2 did. I pre-ordered, waited, played for 2 days, and uninstalled it never to play again. The excitement leading to it, money I spent, and time I put in had no weight in my decision. Game sucks, not playing. It was the same in 1.0 and will be the same for 2.0 if I don't like it.
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#16 Aug 23 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Default
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ACLinjury wrote:
Actually a study done in 2012 showed that ".. playing music reduces the development of cognitive dissonance."

Furthermore, it would seem that you copied the Wikipedia page in regards to the theory you just posted about. Were you going to plagiarize the whole thing for us, or do you have any thoughts of your own on the matter?

What a pointless post.


I didn't even look at a wikipedia page o_O I just wrote up the steps I memorized years ago and looked up abstracts for the most famous experiments. I can't even find the third experiment on the wiki page...

Yes playing music and about 100 other things reduce cognitive dissonance on a short-term basis
I'm not sure what that has to do with this. Listening to music doesn't magically change things. But if you played music when the dissonance has an effect it might
#17 Aug 23 2013 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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As a guy currently Majoring in Psych and Minoring in Sociology, can we leave this crap out of FFXIV discussions, I will be getting quite enough of this when classes start back up in a week and a half.
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#18 Aug 23 2013 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Azurymber wrote:
ACLinjury wrote:
Actually a study done in 2012 showed that ".. playing music reduces the development of cognitive dissonance."

Furthermore, it would seem that you copied the Wikipedia page in regards to the theory you just posted about. Were you going to plagiarize the whole thing for us, or do you have any thoughts of your own on the matter?

What a pointless post.


I didn't even look at a wikipedia page o_O I just wrote up the steps I memorized years ago and looked up abstracts for the most famous experiments. I can't even find the third experiment on the wiki page...

Yes playing music and about 100 other things reduce cognitive dissonance on a short-term basis
I'm not sure what that has to do with this. Listening to music doesn't magically change things. But if you played music when the dissonance has an effect it might


You should have spent more time studying the collective consciousness before you posted something like this in an ARR forum. Smiley: frown

Anyway, what color is our emblem going to be guys?

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:43pm by Transmigration
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#19 Aug 23 2013 at 6:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm being manipulated by a big corporation because they delivered me a game I want to play and have fun with.

**** Square-Enix and their new policy on actually making customers happy.
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#20 Aug 23 2013 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Azurymber wrote:
ACLinjury wrote:
Actually a study done in 2012 showed that ".. playing music reduces the development of cognitive dissonance."

Furthermore, it would seem that you copied the Wikipedia page in regards to the theory you just posted about. Were you going to plagiarize the whole thing for us, or do you have any thoughts of your own on the matter?

What a pointless post.


I didn't even look at a wikipedia page o_O I just wrote up the steps I memorized years ago and looked up abstracts for the most famous experiments. I can't even find the third experiment on the wiki page...

Yes playing music and about 100 other things reduce cognitive dissonance on a short-term basis
I'm not sure what that has to do with this. Listening to music doesn't magically change things. But if you played music when the dissonance has an effect it might


With all due respect, your post reads very similarly to the wiki entry. Maybe it's just me. I just find it odd that you recall the names of all the psychologist that conducted the studies as well as the years they were conducted in. Kudos to you though.

Edit: I looked up the 'third experiment' you mentioned. Seriously, who remembers the exact number of participants in a study and the confidence of winning to the hundredth of decimal point, as per the study you quoted.
..
I'm going to go vote on FC color, because apparently within 30 seconds of voting I'll feel like I've picked a winner.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:59pm by ACLinjury
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#21Killua125, Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 6:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Even more than the post-purchase rationalizers, the latest adopters of the game who slapped down $40 for their pre-order... the biggest manipulators are the 1.0 people who spent something more valuable - time.
#22 Aug 23 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Killua125 wrote:
Even more than the post-purchase rationalizers, the latest adopters of the game who slapped down $40 for their pre-order... the biggest manipulators are the 1.0 people who spent something more valuable - time.

For example, the opinions of a Legacy player with tons of level 50 classes is almost surely useless. Those are the people going on and on with the "just a beta", "everything is normal", "Square Enix is doing great", etc.

I guess they feel that an ARR failure would be so embarrassing and depressing that they lie to themselves and others.


Jesus Christ.. The people who don't like it are already gone. They're off waiting for Wildstar somewhere or back in Warcraft. The people left on here generally enjoy the game. Why is that so hard for people to understand? There are some companies out there that could probably pull the wool over my eyes, SE is not one of them anymore. I'm sorry, but their marketing is horrendous. The game spoke for itself and we like it. No one on these forums isn't capable of seeing and admitting it's flaws anymore, the good just outweighs the bad at this point. Now go back underneath your bridge, there are people coming.
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#23 Aug 23 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Default
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Ravashack wrote:
Azurymber wrote:

[...]
I hope this post didn't offend anyone. I just thought some people might be interested in the marketing tactics that make games a success.


No offense to you, but it's starting to get pretty offensive seeing a doom and gloom thread from you that subtly condemns everyone who likes the game as being manupulated, covered in a wall of text. You sound like you potentially like the game but are feeling incredibly insecure about it, and thus have the need to put yourself down massively to justify things. Please save the doomsaying for a month or so AFTER the game is released, hmmm?


Why, check my history. i doomsayed at the start of 1.0, got the exact same responses as here, and was mostly correct about all the problems I said would be problems :p

I'm watching people get hyped up just like at 1.0 and I know exactly what will happen 3 months from now.

All this post did was say "maybe"
and present some facts
So people could make their own decisions.

Apparently science is horrible
And no one here at all is effected by the tricks marketers use
Which makes perfect sense as these corporations make millions using these tactics
no one effected = millions of dollars! perfect logic

People can't accept that they are imperfect and are influenced.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:56pm by Azurymber
#24 Aug 23 2013 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Azurymber wrote:

[...]
But I find it funny that it so quickly got sub-defaulted with numerous people trying to justify they aren't affected.
[...]


The point is that your opening post's tone is inherently negative and borderline insulting to a potential reader without explicitly being so.

Just in the topic alone, "manipulated" is not a word you use when you are trying to be objective, and as previously pointed out, adding "you" in there creates a totally different meaning when you compare it to a phrase that leaves it out. You could have just as easily have used, say, "Influencing customer emotions regarding games" as the thread title, and that alone would have presented your opening post (to me at least) in a far less negative tone. Instead, the title you decided on sets the tone for your post to be viewed as potentially condescending and insulting.

Edit: misquoted title word

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 9:15pm by Ravashack
#25 Aug 23 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Default
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ACLinjury wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
ACLinjury wrote:
Actually a study done in 2012 showed that ".. playing music reduces the development of cognitive dissonance."

Furthermore, it would seem that you copied the Wikipedia page in regards to the theory you just posted about. Were you going to plagiarize the whole thing for us, or do you have any thoughts of your own on the matter?

What a pointless post.


I didn't even look at a wikipedia page o_O I just wrote up the steps I memorized years ago and looked up abstracts for the most famous experiments. I can't even find the third experiment on the wiki page...

Yes playing music and about 100 other things reduce cognitive dissonance on a short-term basis
I'm not sure what that has to do with this. Listening to music doesn't magically change things. But if you played music when the dissonance has an effect it might



With all due respect, your post reads very similarly to the wiki entry. Maybe it's just me. I just find it odd that you recall the names of all the psychologist that conducted the studies as well as the years they were conducted in. Kudos to you though.


Like i said i was going partly off abstracts. Abstracts are like a paragraph at the start of a journal article summarizing it. Whoever entered the wiki info probably was basing it off the same paragraph, hence similarities. But you have to memorize the names and the experiments for almost any first year psych class :p
#26 Aug 23 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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Can someone explain how I was manipulated? I didn't pre order anything and didn't care about any progression in the beta. Kthnk
#27 Aug 23 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Azurymber wrote:

I'm watching people get hyped up just like at 1.0 and I know exactly what will happen 3 months from now.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:56pm by Azurymber


So did you use rabbit or bird entrails for that augury?

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#28 Aug 23 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
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Azurymber wrote:
So far, based on logic, no one should have high hopes for this game.


Azurymber wrote:
Personally, I have very high hopes.


Your original post included both those statements. You've contradicted yourself and discredited yourself by implying that you're illogical. This whole threat is just comical now.






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#29 Aug 23 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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What you titled it: How you are possibly being manipulated into liking this game
How I would have titled it: MMO Launches and Manipulation

They didn't teach you about maintaining an objective standpoint and not treating your readers to a bias? Heck, a close friend of mine has a bachelor's in Psych and they taught that at the 100-level.
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#30 Aug 23 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Default
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Redding wrote:
Azurymber wrote:

I'm watching people get hyped up just like at 1.0 and I know exactly what will happen 3 months from now.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:56pm by Azurymber


So did you use rabbit or bird entrails for that augury?



logic and years of experience in marketing.

And the fact that problems I brought up years ago are still problems
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=319&mid=128354293059648952&h=50&p=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=319&mid=1283725939158861520#33
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=319&mid=1325839110236127027&h=50&p=1
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=319&mid=128526957471285740#17
#31Azurymber, Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 7:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) context.
#32 Aug 23 2013 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Azurymber wrote:


I'm watching people get hyped up just like at 1.0 and I know exactly what will happen 3 months from now.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 8:56pm by Azurymber


Not sure which game you were following with 1.0, but after Alpha and Beta, just about everybody who participated in it was saying if they don't fix this stuff, it's going to die a horrible horrible death. Sure there were a few hyped up folk who couldn't believe SE would release such a product, but the majority of us knew what was coming. Also, god **** I hate it when "psych majors" bring their theories to video games.

"I'm qualified, I have a degree or a doctorate!" Yes...you and the 50,000 others from your country who graduated from their program. Congratulations, you've done what most people do, get an education!

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 9:16pm by Montsegurnephcreep
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#33 Aug 23 2013 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I love when people try to tell me the psychology of why I made a decision as if I had no agency or power to make a choice for myself. I believe marketing can and does influence decisions but I don't believe it controls me or my destiny. At the end of the day I decide what I like or dislike what I'm going to spend my time doing or not.
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#34 Aug 23 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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That explains the bias.

Your third link is the only one that remotely has any merit, and the rest of the links lead me to believe that you haven't played ARR at all and you're going off your FFXIV 1.0 intuitions.
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#35 Aug 23 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Azurymber wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
Azurymber wrote:

[...]
I hope this post didn't offend anyone. I just thought some people might be interested in the marketing tactics that make games a success.


No offense to you, but it's starting to get pretty offensive seeing a doom and gloom thread from you that subtly condemns everyone who likes the game as being manupulated, covered in a wall of text. You sound like you potentially like the game but are feeling incredibly insecure about it, and thus have the need to put yourself down massively to justify things. Please save the doomsaying for a month or so AFTER the game is released, hmmm?


Why, check my history. i doomsayed at the start of 1.0, got the exact same responses as here, and was mostly correct about all the problems I said would be problems :p

I'm watching people get hyped up just like at 1.0 and I know exactly what will happen 3 months from now.



I think you the problem is that you are either misremembering history or have a very skewed view of what people are saying now.

I too played 1.0 beta, and I too was very critical. And I do remember getting rated down and called a troll, etc.

Here's the problem with the comparison:

1.0 was genuinely a crap game. There were many obvious flaws with it. People who defended it or felt hyped about it generally fell into two categories: Those who hadn't played it at all and those who had played it and were expecting a miracle patch to fix the flaws they saw while playing.

2.0 Is not crappy. The people who like it most are the people who have actually played it. No one is waiting for a patch to "fix" anything, because there's nothing inherently broken. Some one doesn't have to use their imagination to think of how the game might be fun to play, because it's already fun to play.

Also, the psychological principles you're talking about tend to be very weak, and they depend on having to commit up front. You tend to like the car you bought possibly as a coping mechanism for the fact that you paid a lot for it and can't easily recoup your investment. A car isn't very fungible so even if you bought a bad one, you might tend to over estimate how good it is. Similar for a spouse or a child. People tend to think more highly of family in part because they're basically stuck with them for life.

Pre ordering or playing a few beta weekends isn't nearly the same level of commitment. You can generally get back your small pre order deposit, if you even had to pay one, and most of the effort in beta testing is irrelevant, since servers were wiped prior to last weekend.

Experienced MMO players understand that the substantial commitment comes after launch. Hundreds or thousands of hours invested in a character, hundreds or thousands of dollars invested in subscriptions, etc. A 5 dollar deposit and a few weekends of play are a tiny portion of the total cost, and are very unlikely to influence some one's thinking about an MMO if they have some concept of how little an investment that really is.

I can't speak for every one else, but I beta tested Warhammer Online and pre ordered. Didn't buy it. Pre ordered and beta tested Age of Conan, didn't buy it. Pre ordered and beta tested FF14 v1.0, didn't buy it (wouldn't have played it if you paid me too, based on my experience in beta). I pre ordered and beta tested Guild Wars 2, and bought it. Same for RIFT. Why? Because those games were polished and fun in beta, and the others weren't.

The ideas you're talking about, they're relevant to human thinking in general, but not especially relevant to this game, and as such, that knowledge probably doesn't justify telling people that their preferences in this regard are merely an illusion.
#36 Aug 23 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Of course everyone who plays a video game is manipulated into liking it. It's called a Skinner box. That's day one of game theory.
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#37 Aug 23 2013 at 7:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
Of course everyone who plays a video game is manipulated into liking it. It's called a Skinner box. That's day one of game theory.


Skinner hates that name, he prefers Operant Conditioning Chamber, but he was a bit of a nutjob.
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#38 Aug 23 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Someone just bought their Psych 101 book!
#39 Aug 23 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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The game launches in a few hours, depending on where you are, and we've spent the day discussing homosexual marriage and psychology. I'm speechless to be honest.

Anyone excited for Manchester United vs Chelsea on Monday?
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#40 Aug 23 2013 at 7:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I may be wrong but a number of these things have been addressed I believe. They've added more substance with 2.0 from the things I've seen and read. As for the economy that can really go either way. It will likely end up vastly different server to server. Just like XI. Some servers the AH was dead others it was pretty busy. Pretty sure click and buy is gone. Believe I saw them post something about that.
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#41 Aug 23 2013 at 7:26 PM Rating: Default
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KarlHungis wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
Azurymber wrote:

[...]
I hope this post didn't offend anyone. I just thought some people might be interested in the marketing tactics that make games a success.


No offense to you, but it's starting to get pretty offensive seeing a doom and gloom thread from you that subtly condemns everyone who likes the game as being manupulated, covered in a wall of text. You sound like you potentially like the game but are feeling incredibly insecure about it, and thus have the need to put yourself down massively to justify things. Please save the doomsaying for a month or so AFTER the game is released, hmmm?


Why, check my history. i doomsayed at the start of 1.0, got the exact same responses as here, and was mostly correct about all the problems I said would be problems :p

I'm watching people get hyped up just like at 1.0 and I know exactly what will happen 3 months from now.



I think you the problem is that you are either misremembering history or have a very skewed view of what people are saying now.

I too played 1.0 beta, and I too was very critical. And I do remember getting rated down and called a troll, etc.

Here's the problem with the comparison:

1.0 was genuinely a crap game. There were many obvious flaws with it. People who defended it or felt hyped about it generally fell into two categories: Those who hadn't played it at all and those who had played it and were expecting a miracle patch to fix the flaws they saw while playing.

2.0 Is not crappy. The people who like it most are the people who have actually played it. No one is waiting for a patch to "fix" anything, because there's nothing inherently broken. Some one doesn't have to use their imagination to think of how the game might be fun to play, because it's already fun to play.

Also, the psychological principles you're talking about tend to be very weak, and they depend on having to commit up front. You tend to like the car you bought possibly as a coping mechanism for the fact that you paid a lot for it and can't easily recoup your investment. A car isn't very fungible so even if you bought a bad one, you might tend to over estimate how good it is. Similar for a spouse or a child. People tend to think more highly of family in part because they're basically stuck with them for life.

Pre ordering or playing a few beta weekends isn't nearly the same level of commitment. You can generally get back your small pre order deposit, if you even had to pay one, and most of the effort in beta testing is irrelevant, since servers were wiped prior to last weekend.

Experienced MMO players understand that the substantial commitment comes after launch. Hundreds or thousands of hours invested in a character, hundreds or thousands of dollars invested in subscriptions, etc. A 5 dollar deposit and a few weekends of play are a tiny portion of the total cost, and are very unlikely to influence some one's thinking about an MMO if they have some concept of how little an investment that really is.

I can't speak for every one else, but I beta tested Warhammer Online and pre ordered. Didn't buy it. Pre ordered and beta tested Age of Conan, didn't buy it. Pre ordered and beta tested FF14 v1.0, didn't buy it (wouldn't have played it if you paid me too, based on my experience in beta). I pre ordered and beta tested Guild Wars 2, and bought it. Same for RIFT. Why? Because those games were polished and fun in beta, and the others weren't.

The ideas you're talking about, they're relevant to human thinking in general, but not especially relevant to this game, and as such, that knowledge probably doesn't justify telling people that their preferences in this regard are merely an illusion.


I love this post
You win a cookie!
I won't argue with you but I will point out that many people have posted things like
"20,000 people not being able to log in isn't a problem"
or "there is no problem with entering codes" even though there were almost 40 diff topics on it across boards with 100s of responses
etc.
Those were the people I was mainly talking about.
The ones who think that even if 20% of NA can't get into the game, it isn't an issue at all because of x-excuse.

Catwho wrote:
Of course everyone who plays a video game is manipulated into liking it. It's called a Skinner box. That's day one of game theory.

That was what i was going to post about next if i wouldn't have got rated down :p But yeah i tried mentioning that around 1.0 and people raged.
#42 Aug 23 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Think we can mix in a little Pavlov discussion while we're at it here? I love me some classical conditioning.
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#43 Aug 23 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well this is a new development. Apparently I don't actually like what I like.

Why is it so hard for you to swallow the fact that people are going to play this game and enjoy it? Some people just surprise the **** out of me.
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#44Azurymber, Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 7:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sorry but German Football is where it's at now.
#45Azurymber, Posted: Aug 23 2013 at 7:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sure, lets do that.
#46 Aug 23 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Satisiun wrote:
Think we can mix in a little Pavlov discussion while we're at it here? I love me some classical conditioning.


Discussion of the forum's Karma system is strictly forbidden by the mods.

#47 Aug 23 2013 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tad off topic but I for one would like to see one of these topics or one of the ones on *** marriage just devolve into cannibalism for a change. I mean that'd be something fresh and new for everyone to experience I'm sure. It'd bring a whole new light into such debates.

Don't like what that guy said? Well now you've the option to eat his liver. Make it happen Devs<3
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Cannibalism is a valid means of debate. Your opponent presents their side of the argument and you respond in kind by consuming their liver. Thus the debate ends with you having proved your point. As a boon for being such a master of the debationary arts few people will wish to confront you in such a manner in the future.
#48 Aug 23 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Azurymber wrote:
Satisiun wrote:
Think we can mix in a little Pavlov discussion while we're at it here? I love me some classical conditioning.


Sure, lets do that.
With 2.0 fishing you just sit there hitting enter (or hitting a button) every time you hear a sound or see a motion
Do you think after doing it 300-500 times a day for a week, you would feel an urge to do it if the sound suddenly came on?


Fishing is operant conditioning not classical conditioning.
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#49 Aug 23 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Phoenix904 wrote:
Quote:
So how are you being manipulated?
Pre-Orders.
By having you pre-order a game (and bribing you to do it with bonuses), SE, and any other video game companies using the method, are creating post-decisional dissonance. In other words, you are subconsciously being manipulated into liking the game more, because you invested in it.


Or maybe, just maybe, I liked the game originally which is the reason why I pre-ordered. Meaning the fact that I pre-ordered had absolutely no bearing on me liking the game. I played FFXI, I played beta, I like FF, and I enjoyed this game up to this point.


Not taking sides here, but that's not really what it means. Because there are goodies attached, it's easier for people who do pre-order to justify making their purchase. Almost any company marketing a product does this to some extent. It's not always the case and I'm not trying to come across like it is, but most of the time that's how people make decisions. That's just how it works. I'm not condemning anyone for being manipulated(if it makes people feel that badly), but it's pretty obvious that it's a tactic used to market and sell goods.

You've never played 1.0, but consider the people who already bought the game. What other motivation could they have to pre-order and purchase something they already own? Every time I've asked someone on these boards why they'd buy the game twice, they say because they didn't want to miss out on early access or because they wanted one or both of the bonus items. It's a digital download so it's not like it's going to be out of stock.

I'm not sure why this upsets people. I find it interesting that SE completely removed the necessity of buying the game again for the sake of the game, yet they still have a mass of people who will buy it for perks alone.


Disclaimer: Real talk for grown folks who can look past what they want for themselves and see the bigger picture.

SE is in a unique position here, there is no denying that. They will be able to see how many people are registering codes for pre-order bonuses on accounts that existed prior to ARR. We all know they want to stick to a sub model and we already know why, but the data they are able to get from this would provide a lot of insight into how well micro-transactions would do. Jus sayin Smiley: cool



Azurymber wrote:
It's a result of millions of years of evolution from a brain stem in a fish to a competent and cognitive functioning brain that has conscious thought.

Everybody knows that God created the earth 5k years ago Smiley: sly

Edited, Aug 23rd 2013 9:39pm by FilthMcNasty
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#50 Aug 23 2013 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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Redding wrote:
Tad off topic but I for one would like to see one of these topics or one of the ones on *** marriage just devolve into cannibalism for a change. I mean that'd be something fresh and new for everyone to experience I'm sure. It'd bring a whole new light into such debates.

Don't like what that guy said? Well now you've the option to eat his liver. Make it happen Devs<3

That happens on the ESO forums I visit, but it's often Bosmer roleplay.
#51 Aug 23 2013 at 7:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
That happens on the ESO forums I visit, but it's often Bosmer roleplay.


But it's just not the same.
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