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#1 Aug 30 2013 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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So let's get the ball rolling! I know some of us are still working on becoming black mages but others have completed or gotten pretty far up there.

I would like this to be a general thread about what you think BLM's role will be in the end and general thoughts so far. What does BLM bring to the table that other jobs do not?

We seem to have retained many abilities from RDM in FFXI. How to use them properly is another story. Convert is no where near as profound as the XI equivalent.

Sleep now shares diminishing returns. And, most importantly, sleep may be cast on a mob that has a DoT on it. Quite interesting.

Taking archer to 34 will be mandatory since we have very few useful cross class abilities and quelling strikes is too good to pass up. We have little tools to help us survive but are they enough? No longer can we silence, paralyze, and, probably the biggest, stun mobs like in 11.

My theory is that BLMs will be stuck on crowd control duties with our trait that allows sleep to spread to a 5 yalm radius. Yes, THM will have the same ability but it looks like THM has access to more useful cross class abilities than BLM.

My casts are not interrupted very often so I use surecast sparsely. I'm sad that swiftcast is on such a high CD because it's one of the only ways to get off a quick AoE in FATEs.

What stat do you think we'll stack after INT? How much is too much INT? Which would you go for first?

Piety looks decent but considering the rate at which we regen mana plus having convert makes it obsolete. VIT may be viable due to our low HP pools.

Thoughts? :D
#2 Sep 02 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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my only thought is: there can be too much int?
seriously though i would like to hear others opinions as well. still working on unlocking blm. now only if the servers would work properly
#3 Sep 02 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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After leveling some more, I have some thoughts on our stat distribution.

I think stacking INT is probably the best.

Here's an example of how I would use PIE.

Say, at level 50, your fire 1 takes 250 MP to cast. Say your magic pool is 2700. So, let's ignore the cost of the initial fire 3. That means you'd be able to get 10 casts of fire 1 off before having to switch to blizz 3/umbral ice. If adding a point of PIE will allow you to cast 11 fire 1s instead, it may be worth it if it works out that way for you in the end.

However, you may be able to compensate that with gear and materia so it may be irrelevant in the end anyways!
#4 Sep 03 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
We're all new. :) I want to have others around to double check my initial findings (like you're doing right now with thunder).

http://i.imgur.com/hOvF551.png

Thunder 2 has a quicker cast time (pretty **** important), lower MP cost (a 'meh' but it's good when we're casting it in our mana regen phase), and lasts 3 seconds shorter than thunder 3.

Thunder 3's benefits are the following:
-lightning damage with base potency 60 (50 with T2)
-longer duration by 3 seconds

But it has a higher mana cost. During our mana regen phase, we want to use as little mana as possible so that we can have 'near max' as we proceed into a fire 3.

To me, the extra .5 seconds extra cast time from T3 turn me away from it since I've seen a lot of dungeons that were rather movement-intensive.

Since all three ranks of thunder can toggle thundercloud, might as just well use t2 which is the best of both worlds.


For your other questions, I made a thread here:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=292&mid=137818379182149257&p=1#3


You can use your thundercloud proc anytime you like. However, let's say you pop a raging strikes. You're not going to cast the thunder: you're going to exhaust your mana pool through fire spamming since it's our highest damage spell.

Now another way to look at this: if you start off by casting thunder 2 and then work your way down to <200 MP to switch to the blizzard phase, this just so happens to be the time it takes for thunder 2 to wear off. So when you go to cast blizz 3 and get umbral 3, you cast thunder 2 as a filler to refresh it, and then immediately use fire 3. It only takes around 2~3.5 seconds for your mana bar to become full with umbral ice 3 so you literally do the following:

Currently have 3 astral fires
1) Blizz 3 (around 200 MP)
2) Thunder 2 (during this cast your first mana regen occurs; let's say 1300)
3) Fire 3 (your next mana regen block is coming and will go off before your astral fire will)

You equivalently have full MP with 3 astral fires already at your disposal using this way. Not to mention, when you are in umbral ice 3, you can cast fire 3 and receive half cast time and then mash your fire key to receive a fire with half cast time as well.

Wanted to reply over here since we were starting to get off(ish) topic over in general. Also, I totally missed the class specific forums! I thought it was just DoM and I didn't see much going on there.

So my first interest would now be about the Thunder procs. I hadn't noticed before that the potency of the proc itself is affected by the rank you initially cast. Now I can see the cast time on Thunder III maybe not being worth it for the 10 potency initial damage difference to Thunder II, but now I see there's also a 45 potency difference in the damage of the proc. I am interested to see how this will change what we do at different levels of determination/potency. My guess is that as our gear gets better Thunder III will become superior but that's just my guess on how determination vs potency works. I haven't seen any clear explanation on that front yet.

For the Fire question, Casting Fire III in Umbral would only remove the Umbral state correct? I know it's during the mana regen phase but I assume you wouldn't get one more tick of regen after the cast which means you're still just casting a Fire III and spending that amount of mana on a non-Astral buffed cast. I like the idea of both Fire III and the subsequent Fire I taking advantage of a cast speed buff, I'm just curious how the cost of that cast speed weighs against the mana usage and then only getting to Astral 1.

As far as this threads OP, I want ALL the Ints. All of them. But I think determination needs to be looked at and there are probably internal diminishing returns mechanics on stats that affect what we do. Also, has anyone had any issues where accuracy might be needed? Only doing class quests I don't think I was ever resisted, but on high level content I could see that being an issue. I wonder if our gear will naturally have enough of it.
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Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#5 Sep 03 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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For some reason I missed that Fire III is the same deal as Blizzard III in that it goes directly from Umbral to Astral 3 so I get that now. Fire III at the end of the Umbral cycle and then the Fire I you squeeze in will be affected by Astral 3 and at the same time get the cast time benefit. Good times.
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Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#6 Sep 03 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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I'm at work and can't log in to check the info on Astal Fire/Umbral Ice (I'd have to fight 1017 for 30 minutes anyway) but after reading the general thread and now here, I'm completely confused on something with Astral Fire/Umbral Ice buffs. Do you no longer have the 50 % potency penalty for opposite elements?

(Obviously some of this can be outdated since it's previous info)
http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/beta-phase-3-thaumaturge-guide-info.5/

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Thaumaturge

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/76624-THM-Astral-Fire-Umbral-Ice-stacking?p=1138287

Also from my recollection, which could be be hazy, I remember the different Astral Fire stacks affecting MP/Potency in phase 3/4 (no stack, regular mp, 1 stack, increased MP cost, 2 stacks, even higher MP cost) but now it seems like 2 stacks of Astral Fire has no additional effect on MP.

I guess I don't get why everyone is casting back and forth from Blizz 3/Fire 3 when under the 'wrong' buff. I get the whole full stack thing switch which is awesome. I've only gotten THM to 26 so maybe Astral/Umbral 3 changes everything or I'm just going by outdated mechanics from P3/4. If' I've been doing it wrong, then that is crazy awesome to learn this now so I'm not such a noob on BLM lol and this should be much better for my DPS.
#7 Sep 03 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Actually I missed that too. As well as the half casting time for the opposite school. Something I stumbled upon.

I couldn't find any info on the damage of the proc itself. :(

For Thunder III, I see this:

"Thunder III" wrote:
Thunder III LV46 Cast Time 3.5 Recast Time 2.5 MP 425 TP 0 Range 25y Radius 0y Requires THM BLM
Deals lightning damage with a potency of 60.
Additional Effect: Lightning damage over time.
Potency: 40 Duration: 18s
Additional Effect: 5% chance after each tick that potency of next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will be 340, have no cast time, and cost no MP.
Duration: 12s


And for Thunder II I see this:


"Thunder II" wrote:
Thunder II LV22 Cast Time 3 Recast Time 2.5 MP 319 TP 0 Range 25y Radius 0y Requires CNJ THM BLM
Deals lightning damage with a potency of 50.
Additional Effect: Lightning damage over time.
Potency: 40 Duration: 15s
Additional Effect: 5% chance after each tick that potency of next Thunder, Thunder II, or Thunder III will be 295, have no cast time, and cost no MP.
Duration: 12s


When they say 'additional effect: lighting damage over time", right below it it lists its potency and duration. So this spell has two durations. I'm a little confused by the description myself.

If that potency means what the DoT potency is, then they have the same potency of the DoT component. As soon as I get in game, I'll test this and report back.

ChoochZero wrote:
I'm at work and can't log in to check the info on Astal Fire/Umbral Ice (I'd have to fight 1017 for 30 minutes anyway) but after reading the general thread and now here, I'm completely confused on something with Astral Fire/Umbral Ice buffs. Do you no longer have the 50 % potency penalty for opposite elements?

(Obviously some of this can be outdated since it's previous info)
http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/beta-phase-3-thaumaturge-guide-info.5/

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Thaumaturge

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/76624-THM-Astral-Fire-Umbral-Ice-stacking?p=1138287

Also from my recollection, which could be be hazy, I remember the different Astral Fire stacks affecting MP/Potency in phase 3/4 (no stack, regular mp, 1 stack, increased MP cost, 2 stacks, even higher MP cost) but now it seems like 2 stacks of Astral Fire has no additional effect on MP.

I guess I don't get why everyone is casting back and forth from Blizz 3/Fire 3 when under the 'wrong' buff. I get the whole full stack thing switch which is awesome. I've only gotten THM to 26 so maybe Astral/Umbral 3 changes everything or I'm just going by outdated mechanics from P3/4. If' I've been doing it wrong, then that is crazy awesome to learn this now so I'm not such a noob on BLM lol and this should be much better for my DPS.


Astral Fire and Umbral Ice are very unclear, actually! When you get the rank 3 versions, they add a new 'benefit' and that is halved casting time of any spell in the other school.

The reason you switch playstyles is because fire 3 puts you at 3 astral fire charges automatically (even if you have umbral ice up) and then you just spam that until you run out of MP (pre-firestarter).. This increases the damage and when you need to regeneration MP, you can just cast a very high speed blizzard 3 at an enemy and regen your MP within 2~3 seconds and go back to fire 3 again with a fast cast. You can also squeeze in a fire 1, too.

Compare the tooltips now to the tooltips when you obtained fire 3 or blizz 3.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 4:32pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#8 Sep 03 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I meant the little tooltip when you first get Blizzard, was gonna check that and see.

But mainly, there is no longer a Potency penalty though is my concern. God, we seem so broken now!
#9 Sep 03 2013 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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There's no potency penalty now? Man I hope I can get in game tonight before maintenance to check some of this out. I literally only did the THM/BLM story quest and did all my leveling on my SMN so I didn't pay attention to anything that might have changed since earlier betas.
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Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#10 Sep 03 2013 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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I am not certain about the potency penalty. I'll need to see what the tooltip says in game when I can get back on.

When I go from umbral ice 3 to astral fire 3 by casting a fire 3, my fire 3 is pretty **** weak. Though, that may be because you technically have no astral fires at that point in time.

However the damage I get is lower than the listed potency for fire 3.

However! To test this properly, I will need to remove all my gear to see what is really going on.

So many things to test yet servers are down. :X
#11 Sep 04 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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We were thinking the same thing. I bought the level 1 wand again and was planning to go out to the dummy and do some naked testing. I didn't have a chance to do that, but I did get to see the buff description, and both level 3 buffs include the fast cast effect AND the damage penalty wording. Of course, it still needs to be tested because the Astral 3 buff also says MP regen is increased which is clearly wrong. But I think the damage penalty is correct still.

Also, don't forget potency isn't the same as damage, my understanding of it is that it's a percentage of your attack damage that gets applied. I don't know if the numbers are exact, ie I don't know if 30 potency is 30%, but this is the way the mechanic was described to me.
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Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#12 Sep 05 2013 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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I should clarify: the reason I assumed there was no potency penalty was because everyone was talking about casting Blizz 3/Fire 3 under opposite affinities and I thought "surely the potency penalty would keep people form doing that" but it seems not. I do know that Potency may not necessarily be a straight 1 to 1 trade but 50% is still 50%. Having not played BLM yet, is Transpose into 2 Fire 1 to build to Astral 3 really that much worse than casting Fire 3 under Astral Ice, especially when the Fire 1 could proc Firestarter and get a free Fire 3 that is under Astral Fire anyways? Granted that is best case scenario but still.
#13 Sep 05 2013 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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No it isn't too bad UNTIL you obtain the level 3 versions of umbral ice and astral fire. Then, casting fire 3 with 3 stacks of umbral ice reduces its cast time in half.

Not only that, but it reduces the casting time on some of our utility spells as well! Freeze's time is cut in half if you cast it under astral fire 3. Flare's time is cut in half if cast under umbral ice 3. I haven't done much testing but you can effectively AoE with flare by casting it, using convert, cast it again, transposing, waiting a sec for MP to cast blizzard 3, cast fire 3 and mash the flare key at the same time, equivalent of casting a flare under the effect of 3 astral fires.

It looks like a long setup but is actually quite quick and flare can do upward of ~1600 with just fresh 50 gear to every mob in an admittedly small radius.

Honestly, having freeze's cast time cut in half makes it extremely useful when your swiftcast is down.

The amount of MP regenerated per 'tick' of umbral ice is also increased substantially with more stacks. Under 3 stacks, you'll regain around 4000 mana with 3 'ticks' which takes around 2~3 seconds.

There are so many 'tricks' to playing THM and BLM. I feel like we should make a thread with a compilation of our discoveries here within a week. I'd like to learn if others have found neat things too.

Edited, Sep 6th 2013 1:06am by HitomeOfBismarck
#14 Sep 06 2013 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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I'm almost 50 on my SMN, once I hit that I'll be spending more time on BLM so I can really look at things more, but a compilation thread would probably be helpful.

As far as Fire III vs Transpose + Fire I + Fire I, I look at it like this.. Transpose will deal 0 damage, and the two Fire I casts will do less than under Astral 3. Plus Fire III will be half cast so you very quickly get into Astral 3. Now I don't know yet exactly how each stack of Astral affects damage, but I'm currently assuming it's enough to be worth it. It is something I plan on testing this weekend though.
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Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#15 Sep 07 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, good to know. I figured either the penalty was gone or my peers knew that it was worth it. Good stuff. :)
#16 Sep 11 2013 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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I'd like to keep adding to this thread as we all gear up and continually adjust our views! It'd be nice to look back on what we thought of BLM when we were leveling up. It could also be a fun experience to see, way down the road in a couple years, how much the class has changed.

Overall, I'm happy with the position BLM is in right now. In just moderate gear, I can out parse just about anyone barring a relic/relic+1 user. Even then, we come in very close.

What I've noticed, too, is that 1) other BLMs parse around the same as me and 2) there are very few of us in comparison to other classes it would seem!

So keep up with the dark arts (but keep it quiet :P). Remember, though, that we once had a golden age in a certain other MMO and were hit pretty hard. Also, remember that we rely on hard casting. Other MMOs have made it very difficult for casters due to movement intensive fights. I haven't noticed too much favoritism towards one style of playing. For the most part, we are able to sit back and nuke stuff while occasionally dodging harmful things.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 12:13am by HitomeOfBismarck
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