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1017 Doesn't mean something is broken.Follow

#53 Sep 03 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair I had said that I would be nuking duplicate thread topics, but I was away for the holiday so I wasn't on Zam much. Lets see what the maint. tonight does to the game, hopefully it will solve many of the issues.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 12:36pm by Wint
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#54 Sep 03 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Any chance we could start punishing anyone that calls someone who doesn't agree with them a fanboy? Like that troll in the FC last night? lol.

In all seriousness, we are all frustrated by not being able to log in whenever we feel like it, even those of us who understand the technical difficulties and the reason behind them. I am certainly not going to say that the ARR team could not have planned a little better, but I think they are doing what needs to be done now that they realize what that is.

As for the timeline, just the procurement of enterprise level servers alone takes more than you may realize. Each is custom built by the manufacturer and is subject to part shortage (this happens very regularly with memory and hard drives in particular.) On top of that, there is usually special bid pricing involved, which can add some time to the entire process as a company like this will get a large discount which requires multiple levels of approval. Lastly, they are likely purchasing from two separate distributors since they are getting servers in two regions and each distributor handles accounts per region (I am a vet of IT Distribution.)

I won't get into the process of actually configuring those servers once they receive them, but this might give you a better idea of some of the things that go on behind the scenes that typical users wouldn't consider. Could they have realized the need sooner? probably. Are they ignoring it now? absolutely not. With the hardware and configuration they have now, their choices are to have the game unplayable by all or allow 5000 per server to play a great, stable game.
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#55 Sep 03 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah see...I was trying to be nice, but you know...Wint...he pulls out the BFG with infinite ammo and a turbo controller...
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#56 Sep 03 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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I haven't been on in almost 2 days now :(

Just getting annoying.
#57 Sep 03 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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1017 doesn't on its own mean something is broken, but the reason it's such an issue is because things are, in fact broken. The Duty Finder is locking up the servers and making it a nightmare to play the game.

I'm perfectly fine with waiting my turn to play. But getting into the queue is like winning the lottery. I can sit there for an hour, constantly trying to log in and be no closer to achieving that goal, while someone else can stroll by, hit the button at a lucky moment, and pop right into the queue. My issue is not the fact that the servers are full and I have to wait my turn to get in; it's that there's no rhyme or reason to getting in. If they could make the queues work like they're supposed to, I'd be a happy camper. If I could hit "Log In" and see that I'm in line and on my way to playing the game, I'd be so happy for SE and the success that these crowded servers imply.

But no, I have to sit there, spamming my X button or my 0 key, hoping against hope that I happen to get in line, and then that I don't get kicked out of the line and have to start over. I'm cautiously optimistic about the maintenance, as they've made their statements in a way that makes them seem pretty confident it'll work. But right now, it's scarcely worth anyone's time or effort to try to get online, and it's a real shame.
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#58 Sep 03 2013 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
Ruinaru wrote:
1017 doesn't on its own mean something is broken, but the reason it's such an issue is because things are, in fact broken. The Duty Finder is locking up the servers and making it a nightmare to play the game.

I'm perfectly fine with waiting my turn to play. But getting into the queue is like winning the lottery. I can sit there for an hour, constantly trying to log in and be no closer to achieving that goal, while someone else can stroll by, hit the button at a lucky moment, and pop right into the queue. My issue is not the fact that the servers are full and I have to wait my turn to get in; it's that there's no rhyme or reason to getting in. If they could make the queues work like they're supposed to, I'd be a happy camper. If I could hit "Log In" and see that I'm in line and on my way to playing the game, I'd be so happy for SE and the success that these crowded servers imply.

But no, I have to sit there, spamming my X button or my 0 key, hoping against hope that I happen to get in line, and then that I don't get kicked out of the line and have to start over. I'm cautiously optimistic about the maintenance, as they've made their statements in a way that makes them seem pretty confident it'll work. But right now, it's scarcely worth anyone's time or effort to try to get online, and it's a real shame.


Yes but what the majority of people are not understanding is that the servers have a maximum capacity. This doesn't exclude the login server(s).

With the worlds being at maximum capacity, the overflow spills into the login server, which then crashes the login server. Hence the throttling on the login server.

Hence 1017 (which is a glorified: "We have manually prevented you from joining an otherwise working queue system so that you don't destroy our precious hardware.")
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#59 Sep 03 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
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SE has only themselves to blame.
#60 Sep 03 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist, Om nom nom... wrote:
Ruinaru wrote:
1017 doesn't on its own mean something is broken, but the reason it's such an issue is because things are, in fact broken. The Duty Finder is locking up the servers and making it a nightmare to play the game.

I'm perfectly fine with waiting my turn to play. But getting into the queue is like winning the lottery. I can sit there for an hour, constantly trying to log in and be no closer to achieving that goal, while someone else can stroll by, hit the button at a lucky moment, and pop right into the queue. My issue is not the fact that the servers are full and I have to wait my turn to get in; it's that there's no rhyme or reason to getting in. If they could make the queues work like they're supposed to, I'd be a happy camper. If I could hit "Log In" and see that I'm in line and on my way to playing the game, I'd be so happy for SE and the success that these crowded servers imply.

But no, I have to sit there, spamming my X button or my 0 key, hoping against hope that I happen to get in line, and then that I don't get kicked out of the line and have to start over. I'm cautiously optimistic about the maintenance, as they've made their statements in a way that makes them seem pretty confident it'll work. But right now, it's scarcely worth anyone's time or effort to try to get online, and it's a real shame.


Yes but what the majority of people are not understanding is that the servers have a maximum capacity. This doesn't exclude the login server(s).

With the worlds being at maximum capacity, the overflow spills into the login server, which then crashes the login server. Hence the throttling on the login server.

Hence 1017 (which is a glorified: "We have manually prevented you from joining an otherwise working queue system so that you don't destroy our precious hardware.")


I'm just saying, the queue system exists so that people don't have to manually attempt to connect over and over again. That is literally the entire point of a queue system. A fair and reliable way to get online. I understand that the game is bursting at the seams, but I never join the queue at any sort of consistent position. I've been 10th in line and I've been 500th in line. The queue system is not working properly, and that's why everyone is so upset, even if they don't exactly have those words to put to their frustration. It doesn't matter if it's the fault of sheer workload, or the fault of a broken Duty Finder, or what.

They have explicitly stated that the majority of login issues are due to the Duty Finder, not the overcrowding. So yes, something is broken and it needs to be fixed, and people complaining about it is why they're working to get it fixed. Do people need to settle down about it? Yes. Do they need to use existing topics insteading of making new ones? Absolutely. But don't tell people that nothing is broken. That isn't true.
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#61 Sep 03 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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They still have not mentioned exactly how many accounts are allowed to be connected to each server. Technically all accounts have access to all servers? So what is the maximum number of accounts that are competing for 5,000 spaces?

If there are 20,000 accounts with characters on given server , even if they increase the stability/load to 7,500 per server, we could still see login issues during peak times?

It seems that until the new servers are properly populated, the loads will still be excessive for the time being.
#62 Sep 03 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Ruinaru wrote:
But don't tell people that nothing is broken. That isn't true.


I did not say that nothing is broken. I said that the specific error 1017 isn't the result of something being broken, it is a message derived from the manual limitations imposed to control the login process.

The Duty Finder is "broken." I use quotes only because I have never had an issue with it. Longest wait time I had in the Duty Finder was 30 minutes on a DPS class...to be expected. I still insta queue on Gladiator and Conjurer/White Mage.

There are still typos in quest text. Untranslated Japanese for English version. The chocobo bug. The Lancer loot bug.

But to say that something is broken because it is working to the fullest extent of it's capacity is inaccurate. Stop using the word broken.

Unfortunate/unbelieveable/outrageous/ridiculous/wrong/messed-up/short-sighted/unprepared/insufficient/etc... these are acceptable. Haha.

Now as far as Duty Finder having a back-lash effect on the login servers...idk anything about that. However that still wouldn't mean the login servers are 'broken,' it means the Duty Finder is broken and having a ripple effect throughout the network.

Does that make more sense? I am trying to be clear an accurate, without being opinionated or providing false information. Which is incredibly hard, but at least an effort is being made?
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#63 Sep 03 2013 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist, Om nom nom... wrote:
Ruinaru wrote:
But don't tell people that nothing is broken. That isn't true.


I did not say that nothing is broken. I said that the specific error 1017 isn't the result of something being broken, it is a message derived from the manual limitations imposed to control the login process.

The Duty Finder is "broken." I use quotes only because I have never had an issue with it. Longest wait time I had in the Duty Finder was 30 minutes on a DPS class...to be expected. I still insta queue on Gladiator and Conjurer/White Mage.

There are still typos in quest text. Untranslated Japanese for English version. The chocobo bug. The Lancer loot bug.

But to say that something is broken because it is working to the fullest extent of it's capacity is inaccurate. Stop using the word broken.

Unfortunate/unbelieveable/outrageous/ridiculous/wrong/messed-up/short-sighted/unprepared/insufficient/etc... these are acceptable. Haha.

Now as far as Duty Finder having a back-lash effect on the login servers...idk anything about that. However that still wouldn't mean the login servers are 'broken,' it means the Duty Finder is broken and having a ripple effect throughout the network.

Does that make more sense? I am trying to be clear an accurate, without being opinionated or providing false information. Which is incredibly hard, but at least an effort is being made?


The Duty Finder is causing unexpected problems which lead to thousands of players incapable of logging in without significant time and effort that are supposed to be mitigated by the systems the Duty Finder is affecting. Sounds broken to me.

A Quote from Yoshi-P at PAX Prime:

Quote:
One of the main culprits of server congestion and instability has to do with the game’s Duty Finder tool. This tool allows players to find players for group content game-wide, at the moment. But it’s this very aspect of the tool that has been causing many of the issues players are experiencing, loading the world servers such that they can’t accept additional logins or new character creations without risking detrimental effect to the server as a whole. As part of the server work going on this week, Square Enix will be breaking up servers into groups for the purposes of the Duty Finder, think World of Warcraft’s Battlegroups, for example. Once this is implemented, Mr. Yoshida tells us that world servers should be much less taxed and this will both allow for upgrades in the server concurrent user cap (so more players can login at once) and also ease restrictions on character creation.


The Duty Finder is locking down servers and preventing logins and character creation. The Duty Finder is a huge factor in why Error 1017 is so common, it is not solely because the servers are so crowded. So yes, at this point in the game's life, 1017 means something is broken, probably 90% of the times you see it.
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#64 Sep 03 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mopdaddy wrote:
SE has only themselves to blame.


And, as far as anyone has seen, SE hasn't tried to blame anyone else. They took responsibility for it and told us when and how they planned to fix it. But apparently that hasn't been enough for some people. These people demand that SE warp the space-time continuum and get the servers fixed yesterday. Because that is a reasonable request. And grounds to create 3257862387563287568 separate threads complaining about how those demands haven't been met.
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#65 Sep 03 2013 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Ruinaru wrote:

I'm just saying, the queue system exists so that people don't have to manually attempt to connect over and over again. That is literally the entire point of a queue system. A fair and reliable way to get online. I understand that the game is bursting at the seams, but I never join the queue at any sort of consistent position. I've been 10th in line and I've been 500th in line. The queue system is not working properly, and that's why everyone is so upset, even if they don't exactly have those words to put to their frustration. It doesn't matter if it's the fault of sheer workload, or the fault of a broken Duty Finder, or what.


And SE doesn't want you to keep mashing buttons to reconnect. They want you to stay off the login server for a bit and try again later. It is creating problems more than people staying AFK for days. The queue is working fine. 1017 isn't because the queue broke, ti's because they manually turned the queue off. Having 10's of thousands of players sitting in a queue constantly pinging the server is exactly what's causing the 90k issues. Duty finder is doing the same thing, but even more data and analysis.

This is why they are not just doing a hardware update, but splitting the servers into groups so that the duty finder is not pulling and processing data from every server at once.
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#66 Sep 03 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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1017 and other error threads was fun to read about till today. This was the 1st day I was really blocked with the world is full notice , 1017 even blocked a queue. It's hard to believe a game that you have eight character slots to log one in across many servers is full. Someone knew they was over selling the game. If this miracle maintenance don't fix it so people can log on at least 5 hours a day something if not 1017 broken......2002 was the worst error this past week, it shut down my game client in one second flat. Smiley: frown
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#67 Sep 03 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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Warmech wrote:
If this miracle maintenance don't fix it so people can log on at least 5 hours a day something if not 1017 broken......2002 was the worst error this past week, it shut down my game client in one second flat. Smiley: frown


What a life. I wish I had 5 hours a day to game.
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#68 Sep 04 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Sure you don't want to sticky this issue, at least til the end of the month?

Need a massive amount of cheese for all the whining going on.
#69 Sep 04 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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3102 is the new 1017. I got 90k'd half an hour ago and it says I'm still already logged in.
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#71Mopdaddy, Posted: Sep 04 2013 at 11:55 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) What are you talking about?
#72 Sep 04 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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1017 exists because the devs refuse to institute basic population controls and quality of life improvements like login queues. I cannot fathom why in 2013 this basic tool hasn't been implemented.

I have no problem sitting a queue for half an hour...I have a problem with incompetent/lazy/finger-in-ears/head-in-sand devs that lock character creation during beta, happily take your money knowing they can't deliver the experience they're selling you, and promise fixes and don't deliver timely solutions.
#73 Sep 04 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
StateAlchemist, Om nom nom... wrote:
No one reads Terms and Conditions. It isn't surprising when people complain about things they agreed to. Gives me a good chuckle though. Nice one darexius.


Facts are facts, and the fact is that when I bought the game I bought the launcher, just like everyone else did. I can keep that installed and as long as the launcher installs and starts it's working as intended. The rest of the service is entirely in SE's hands. They can close this game down tomorrow and not one person can do a thing about it.


loved your comeback about the legality. was a great read... but however i must say that if SE were to do something like drop the game altogether out of the blue, with enough people, a court may be able to call them on douche' beggary. But yes i concur, we have no "Legal" right to play.

as for states comment. ya, it's pretty sad isn't it... almost makes me want to find the clip from southpark... apple's version of a human centipede.....

-edit- never mind... found it.
human centipad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puL3aSOLyh8
burrito scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglZGSwK6ow


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:08pm by YggdrasilSlepnir

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:14pm by YggdrasilSlepnir
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#74 Sep 04 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
HonkeyKong29 wrote:
Raelix wrote:
3102 is the new 1017. I got 90k'd half an hour ago and it says I'm still already logged in.


Shades of Phase 4's Sunday Shutdown..... 3102 affected 50% (approx.) of the population.

Glad i didn't take leave today ..... just hope they figure it out for the rest of ya..... It sucks to pay for something you can't play.


Yeah, too bad we are playing... Might try and join us one day.
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#75 Sep 04 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
flashbolt wrote:
1017 exists because the devs refuse to institute basic population controls and quality of life improvements like login queues. I cannot fathom why in 2013 this basic tool hasn't been implemented.

I have no problem sitting a queue for half an hour...I have a problem with incompetent/lazy/finger-in-ears/head-in-sand devs that lock character creation during beta, happily take your money knowing they can't deliver the experience they're selling you, and promise fixes and don't deliver timely solutions.


Please list your AAA MMO releases so we can investigate their wild success.

Now that you're mad, post all the excuses as to why you know better than real developers and engineers. Now justify it all by calling me a fanboi. Can you also reference my mother a few times and make wild claims about being sue happy with SE because you failed to read the terms of service? Then tell me you bought the game when you failed to read the part of the ToS stating you have no ownership of the game and instead have purchased a launcher, but you missed that part, too.

Now proceed to tell everyone that anyone who feels differently than you is a meanie and this is a fanboi forum. Then proceed to stay here anyway doing nothing but ******** all day like certain fathers with mops, those who kill with lua, gorillas making odd horn noises, and others that have nothing in their lives worth doing but ******** on a forum unrelated to SE where their complaints will never be heard by those who matter.

Oh, I forgot. Tell us all how you have the God-given right to post on any forum you choose with any content you choose. I haven't seen one of those in a few hours.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:26pm by darexius2010
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#76 Sep 04 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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YggdrasilSlepnir wrote:
but however i must say that if SE were to do something like drop the game altogether out of the blue, with enough people, a court may be able to call them on douche' beggary.
It's pretty clearly written, capitalized bolded and underlined, that "SQUARE ENIX MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNTS, CHARACTERS, VIRTUAL GOODS, OR THE SERVICE ALTOGETHER, AT ANYTIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY TO YOU." (citation)
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#77 Sep 04 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
YggdrasilSlepnir wrote:
but however i must say that if SE were to do something like drop the game altogether out of the blue, with enough people, a court may be able to call them on douche' beggary.
It's pretty clearly written, capitalized bolded and underlined, that "SQUARE ENIX MAY SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY, OR DELETE FFXIV SERVICE ACCOUNTS, CHARACTERS, VIRTUAL GOODS, OR THE SERVICE ALTOGETHER, AT ANYTIME FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY TO YOU." (citation)


yes you are correct. i am not arguing that. i am just merely pointing out that a court system can, and has in the past, overruled contracts such as this.
typing sony vs george hotz in google should be enough to prove my point.
-edit- found the wiki for said legal battle. i will add right now, that one may have to read further into the whole debacle to understand what i mean.
so i will add right here. basically what happened, and what screwed sony in the end, was that george hotz never actually signed the contract to using the playstation network, so sony had literally no real case against him. the rest of the details are in the wiki. Sony ended up having to redo their contract and make all users resign it when the PSN came back online.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment_America_v._George_Hotz


I am not one of the people complaining. i don't even have a copy of the game as of yet, as i am still waiting for amazon to deliver. i just wished to point out the slight error in believing that because there is a contract signed, means that it cannot be overruled or such. Contracts, like terms and agreements, can be nullified/ other fancy word, in court, by a judge.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:34pm by YggdrasilSlepnir
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#78 Sep 04 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
He's not wrong, lolgaxe, though I will say it has RARELY ever happened in digital media.
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#79 Sep 04 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Pretty sure the EULA said they only promised to keep the game servers alive for a minimum 90 days. After that, if they shut it down, oh well.

The City of Heroes folks are still having a sad over that, come to think of it. I wonder if any of them sued?
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#80 Sep 04 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
He's not wrong, lolgaxe, though I will say it has RARELY ever happened in digital media.


thanks, but i will take this moment now to mention, that i was off on my earlier comment about sony vs george hotz before i added in the wiki link and edited.
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#81 Sep 04 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Pretty sure the EULA said they only promised to keep the game servers alive for a minimum 90 days. After that, if they shut it down, oh well.

The City of Heroes folks are still having a sad over that, come to think of it. I wonder if any of them sued?


hmm. interesting.
as for the EULA. ya, SE COULD, be a **** if they wanted too... but after ffxi and the amount of effort they put into remaking ffxiv.... i doubt they will.
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#82 Sep 04 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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YggdrasilSlepnir wrote:
typing sony vs george hotz in google should be enough to prove my point.
Court ruled that Sony could have access to George's web traffic and paypal gave them that account's traffic without a ruling, and then they settled out of court and there is a permanent injunction on George to prevent him from doing any more hack work on Sony products. I'd say Sony won, if that was the point you were trying to raise. If not, I'm simply not caffeinated enough to realize what that point is.
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#83 Sep 04 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
flashbolt wrote:
1017 exists because the devs refuse to institute basic population controls and quality of life improvements like login queues. I cannot fathom why in 2013 this basic tool hasn't been implemented.

I have no problem sitting a queue for half an hour...I have a problem with incompetent/lazy/finger-in-ears/head-in-sand devs that lock character creation during beta, happily take your money knowing they can't deliver the experience they're selling you, and promise fixes and don't deliver timely solutions.


Please list your AAA MMO releases so we can investigate their wild success.

Now that you're mad, post all the excuses as to why you know better than real developers and engineers. Now justify it all by calling me a fanboi. Can you also reference my mother a few times and make wild claims about being sue happy with SE because you failed to read the terms of service? Then tell me you bought the game when you failed to read the part of the ToS stating you have no ownership of the game and instead have purchased a launcher, but you missed that part, too.

Now proceed to tell everyone that anyone who feels differently than you is a meanie and this is a fanboi forum. Then proceed to stay here anyway doing nothing but ******** all day like certain fathers with mops, those who kill with lua, gorillas making odd horn noises, and others that have nothing in their lives worth doing but ******** on a forum unrelated to SE where their complaints will never be heard by those who matter.

Oh, I forgot. Tell us all how you have the God-given right to post on any forum you choose with any content you choose. I haven't seen one of those in a few hours.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:26pm by darexius2010


or in short... go get a life, because ffxiv will be back up and running when you do.
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#84 Sep 04 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Default
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darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
flashbolt wrote:
1017 exists because the devs refuse to institute basic population controls and quality of life improvements like login queues. I cannot fathom why in 2013 this basic tool hasn't been implemented.

I have no problem sitting a queue for half an hour...I have a problem with incompetent/lazy/finger-in-ears/head-in-sand devs that lock character creation during beta, happily take your money knowing they can't deliver the experience they're selling you, and promise fixes and don't deliver timely solutions.


Please list your AAA MMO releases so we can investigate their wild success.

Now that you're mad, post all the excuses as to why you know better than real developers and engineers. Now justify it all by calling me a fanboi. Can you also reference my mother a few times and make wild claims about being sue happy with SE because you failed to read the terms of service? Then tell me you bought the game when you failed to read the part of the ToS stating you have no ownership of the game and instead have purchased a launcher, but you missed that part, too.

Now proceed to tell everyone that anyone who feels differently than you is a meanie and this is a fanboi forum. Then proceed to stay here anyway doing nothing but ******** all day like certain fathers with mops, those who kill with lua, gorillas making odd horn noises, and others that have nothing in their lives worth doing but ******** on a forum unrelated to SE where their complaints will never be heard by those who matter.

Oh, I forgot. Tell us all how you have the God-given right to post on any forum you choose with any content you choose. I haven't seen one of those in a few hours.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:26pm by darexius2010


All I did was post my opinion. No need to get personal man. Notice how my post didn't have words like "you" or "you're" in it. Maybe it'd be a good idea to lay off the forums for a bit so you can cool off?


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:45pm by flashbolt
#85 Sep 04 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
YggdrasilSlepnir wrote:
typing sony vs george hotz in google should be enough to prove my point.
Court ruled that Sony could have access to George's web traffic and paypal gave them that account's traffic without a ruling, and then they settled out of court and there is a permanent injunction on George to prevent him from doing any more hack work on Sony products. I'd say Sony won, if that was the point you were trying to raise. If not, I'm simply not caffeinated enough to realize what that point is.


alright then. yes. caffeine away.

alright. had enough. good.
yes. technically because they got geohotz to quit hacking their system, they won. but in reality they lost. horribly. because they were out to get hotz into jail and sue his *** for damages. I paid attention to the whole thing. the wiki, sadly is actually lacking in details. i should have read through it more, before trusting wiki to have everything there..... my mistake.

the reason why they settled out of court is because sony ****** up.... yes they were in the right for asking for IP addresses to obtain proper jurisdiction, but after that it went down hill for them. the court settled on that it was legal for george hotz to "jailbreak" his console, as he had not signed any such EULA that said other wise. which in turn made it capable for george hotz to retaliate. sony would not have settled otherwise, as sony had a pretty clear cut case before things started to get muddied up with legalities. Even geohotz was getting worried for a bit, until things turned around and the courts sided with him. I believe that sony settled out of court, so as to avoid getting slapped around by the courts more than they already had been slapped around.
getting hacked shortly after the original court proceedings and losing the PSN didn't help things at all for them when it turned out that George wasn't responsible.
Anonymous backed him up, in the simplest way possible. by saying "we are legion" meaning, basically, "there are more of us than you can handle"
so sony backed off. or thats how i understand it.
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#86 Sep 04 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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flashbolt wrote:
darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
flashbolt wrote:
1017 exists because the devs refuse to institute basic population controls and quality of life improvements like login queues. I cannot fathom why in 2013 this basic tool hasn't been implemented.

I have no problem sitting a queue for half an hour...I have a problem with incompetent/lazy/finger-in-ears/head-in-sand devs that lock character creation during beta, happily take your money knowing they can't deliver the experience they're selling you, and promise fixes and don't deliver timely solutions.


Please list your AAA MMO releases so we can investigate their wild success.

Now that you're mad, post all the excuses as to why you know better than real developers and engineers. Now justify it all by calling me a fanboi. Can you also reference my mother a few times and make wild claims about being sue happy with SE because you failed to read the terms of service? Then tell me you bought the game when you failed to read the part of the ToS stating you have no ownership of the game and instead have purchased a launcher, but you missed that part, too.

Now proceed to tell everyone that anyone who feels differently than you is a meanie and this is a fanboi forum. Then proceed to stay here anyway doing nothing but ******** all day like certain fathers with mops, those who kill with lua, gorillas making odd horn noises, and others that have nothing in their lives worth doing but ******** on a forum unrelated to SE where their complaints will never be heard by those who matter.

Oh, I forgot. Tell us all how you have the God-given right to post on any forum you choose with any content you choose. I haven't seen one of those in a few hours.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:26pm by darexius2010


All I did was post my opinion. No need to get personal man. Notice how my post didn't have words like "you" or "you're" in it. Maybe it'd be a good idea to lay off the forums for a bit so you can cool off?


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:45pm by flashbolt


just because you have an opinion, does not mean you should share it. otherwise you may get trolled. you have been fairly warned.
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#87 Sep 04 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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flashbolt wrote:
All I did was post my opinion. No need to get personal man. Notice how my post didn't have words like "you" or "you're" in it. Maybe it'd be a good idea to lay off the forums for a bit so you can cool off?

It doesn't have to be aimed at anyone on the forums to be inflammatory in nature.
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#88 Sep 04 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, I'm just so confused here. Let me see if I understand how things are playing out

-It seems like this thread started off with an Admin asking for people to keep their complaints about 1017 in one thread so that other people posts didn't get pushed off to the next page by dozens of 1017 threads.

-You and your buddy, see this thread and use it to fuel your collective fanboy rage by egging on people who just want to vent about not being able to play a game they've already paid for.

-Then you post that people should expect to be trolled in a thread designed for expressing their frustration.

I don't think the admin had "creating a fanboy troll feeding frenzy thread" in mind when he created this. It seems like it's doing it's job and keeping people's frustrations about 1017 contained to a single thread. It also seems like everyone's life would be more positive if you guys just let people vent and stopped egging them on. That's just my opinion though
#89 Sep 04 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm beginning to think "fanboy" and "white knight" are the Final Fantasy versions of Godwin's Law.

Catwho's Law: As the length of any forum post regarding Final Fantasy grows, the probability of the mention of "fanboy" or "white knight" approaches one.

Corollary: If the discussion is regarding errors received in the game, the probability is exactly equal to one.
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#90 Sep 04 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
svlyons wrote:
StateAlchemist, Om nom nom... wrote:
I am not complaining about 1017. It happens, I don't care I do something else while attempting to log back on. This is me asking people to stop spamming the forums with the same thing. Simple.

Lead by example then. Start a thread about something else instead of yet another thread complaining about the complaint threads.

You could try not talking back to admins and instead heading his warning... Consequences do tend to follow those that defy them.

People who post threads to complain aren't breaking forum rules. This isn't a case where an Admin is stepping in to do their job. This is a case where an Admin is making a post separate from the duties of his position.

Admins that make posts aren't the same as the Pope sitting on his throne.



Honestly I dont know why admin would care. First of all this forum is about all thing FFXIV not just good things. Controversy brings hits to the forum. Hits brings in advertisers. People really think these forums would be this busy if everything was going good... The actual admin may not like that but Zam network must be going yes there are more hits than ever now.
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#91 Sep 04 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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YggdrasilSlepnir wrote:
as he had not signed any such EULA that said other wise.
Well, if that's the case then that's not exactly analogous to this situation. If you don't agree to Square's Terms of Services, you can't play the game at all so you're not in a position to go to court over services being cut off: You never had the services to begin with.

I'm not saying you can't win against an EULA; I'm saying that in the specific case of going to court over downtime, bannings, and shut downs you won't win because they specifically tell you that it's a possibility, and you agreed that you were okay with that possibility. There's also the part where, even if you could somehow make it happen, at best all Square would owe you is a reimbursement of unused time, not total time. Let's say you've played for two years, three months, and fifteen days, and paid $30 a month. They'd owe you around $15. You got what you paid for the other two years, three months, and fifteen days, but not the last fifteen days of your current $30. Again, right in the terms of services, they tell you specifically that you don't own your character or the items. Now, keep in mind even a lowly lawyer is probably going to charge you $200 an hour.

What it boils down to is you should always, always, ALWAYS read what you're preparing to agree to.
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#92 Sep 04 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
Because like most posters here, the admins aren't looking to run a rolling troll forum. Is there a need to post a dozen and a half 1017 threads that are all related to each other? Other than to satisfy a selfish need to have a thread that is all yours, no. There is no advancement in discussion or contribution to something worthwhile. It's just ********* The same number of people are still visiting ZAM, but the board is more accessible and diverse. As it stands Page 1 is nothing more than a whine board.

Would you like to go to a bar where you can't enjoy people's company because absolutely everyone just ******* and moans about things the bar has no power to control? I think not. This is no different.

My post was a summation of all the most popular responses to replies from people that actually make sense. Our problem isn't the complaining. It's the level of immaturity and asshatery that follows. It only serves to degrade the community as a whole, and that by itself really shows the essence of the character of the people making those superbly unnecessary troll posts.
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#93 Sep 04 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Default
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darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Because like most posters here, the admins aren't looking to run a rolling troll forum. Is there a need to post a dozen and a half 1017 threads that are all related to each other? Other than to satisfy a selfish need to have a thread that is all yours, no. There is no advancement in discussion or contribution to something worthwhile. It's just ********* The same number of people are still visiting ZAM, but the board is more accessible and diverse. As it stands Page 1 is nothing more than a whine board.

Would you like to go to a bar where you can't enjoy people's company because absolutely everyone just ******* and moans about things the bar has no power to control? I think not. This is no different.

My post was a summation of all the most popular responses to replies from people that actually make sense. Our problem isn't the complaining. It's the level of immaturity and asshatery that follows. It only serves to degrade the community as a whole, and that by itself really shows the essence of the character of the people making those superbly unnecessary troll posts.


Hate to say it and you may not agree but there are trolls on both sides.. People have every right to complain its not a offense..

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 3:48pm by Nashred
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#94 Sep 04 2013 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I'm more worried about the weather in Phoenix tomorrow than I am whether I can log in to a game.


Yeah, if I had to go through a dust storm like Phoenix had in 2011 I would probably be looking to the skies as well...
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#95 Sep 04 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Default
There is a post I made explaining just that. I'll try to find it and edit this post to include it. You're right, though. There are true white knights that do troll equally as hard. In my time I've had the pleasure of the same discussion.

The typical progression of a ZAM thread lately looks like this.

Legitimate Complaint > Legitimate Response > Trolling retort to response > Legitimate response to troll > White Knight Troll > Utter Crap...

Having a first page filled with nothing but this gets old and impedes good discussion of other topics, which is the purpose of a discussion board.

If this were my forum, I'd sticky an issues thread and state that duplications of that topic, unless adding sufficient new discussion, are restricted to that thread. All other directly related threads will be nuked. First offense is an hour mute, second offense is permamute. Creating accounts to circumvent this results in an IP ban. THEN we could see discussions related to a variety of topics, not just the same style of whine threads repeated infenitum adnauseum.

But then again I like the BFG.


EDIT: Searching for that self quote will take a bit. I'm out having some family time. I can think of a few folks around these parts that should try it.

Screenshot


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 4:09pm by darexius2010
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#96 Sep 04 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Can I just say I love the that OP author's title is the noise that Cookie Monster makes when he eats?

Peace.
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#97 Sep 04 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Please list your AAA MMO releases so we can investigate their wild success.


Hello,

I believe this is a clear example of the "False Dichotomy" fallacy. In this case, the implicit dichotomy is that the poster you quote MUST have created a series of AAA MMORPGs, or has no ability to judge the work of others.

This is an obviously false premise.

When you consider that a working queue is a common feature in AAA MMORPGs, and even MMOs with arguably lower quality (Neverwinter, etc.), your use of a fallacy to try and silence someone who is questioning the competence and honesty of game company employees whose game doesn't have a working queue does seem characteristic of someone whose interest in a company is disproportionate to their financial investment or job responsibilities.

I strongly recommend you discontinue the use of this easily identified logical flaw, however, given that this is the second time you've used it in this thread, I am not entirely optimistic.

Lingarn
#98 Sep 04 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Default
I appreciate your feedback and, despite your knock against me, noting you did not make that argument towards me the first time and thusly have no basis for not being optimistic as to my character which, considering you likely have not sought out my other threads to make a reasonable basis for comparison, are likely equally unqualified to judge, I will in fact heed your advise and take it into consideration in future posts of mine.

That being said, the flaw in your logic is that for your argument to be completely valid, which I'm saying that is in fact a very valid argument, one would need to know the exact circumstances which are causing the queue to fail.

In consideration of that argument, the basis in my previous argument is that you nor the poster I was responding to know the variables leading into the failure of the queue system. Without knowing this information you can't place blame on faulty programming as it could be the substantial load from us on the servers that had been unanticipated. Speaking from experience, you cannot take a brand new code base, put a few people on it, and successfully judge how that codebase will handle an unexpected load. That being said, I have no way of knowing what testing was done or not done nor do I know the specifications of the Colo in use. Therefore I in all cases concede my argument in regards to blame as I don't have any facts to support any argument one way or another.

Finally, nobody does. Not you, not the person I was responding to, not the dozens of naysayers out here. Making all speculation mute.
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#99 Sep 04 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
That being said, the flaw in your logic is that for your argument to be completely valid, which I'm saying that is in fact a very valid argument, one would need to know the exact circumstances which are causing the queue to fail.

In consideration of that argument, the basis in my previous argument is that you nor the poster I was responding to know the variables leading into the failure of the queue system. Without knowing this information you can't place blame on faulty programming as it could be the substantial load from us on the servers that had been unanticipated. Speaking from experience, you cannot take a brand new code base, put a few people on it, and successfully judge how that codebase will handle an unexpected load. That being said, I have no way of knowing what testing was done or not done nor do I know the specifications of the Colo in use. Therefore I in all cases concede my argument in regards to blame as I don't have any facts to support any argument one way or another.

Finally, nobody does. Not you, not the person I was responding to, not the dozens of naysayers out here. Making all speculation mute.


Two points.

First, it is part of SE's job to know how many games they sold and what load their servers can handle. Whether the problem is fundamental to the codebase or based on the number of users is irrelevant, because in either case it was their job to generate a queue system which could handle the load. The fact that many other MMORPGs have successfully done this is relevant, because it demonstrates that this problem is neither insurmountable nor unexpected in the genre -- especially when overloaded servers have not prevented queue systems from working in the past. SE screwed up, and while the specific details of the error may be impossible for us to discern, the fact that they screwed up is not. Judging them to be generally incompetent or dishonest as a result of this error is a matter of opinion.

Second, my post wasn't arguing about the cause of the queue problems. My post was all about you using an argument with a very obvious flaw to try and shut someone up because you didn't like what they posted. If you don't like to be judged based on the words you use, you shouldn't use them.

Lingarn
#100 Sep 04 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
Lingarn wrote:
darexius2010, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
That being said, the flaw in your logic is that for your argument to be completely valid, which I'm saying that is in fact a very valid argument, one would need to know the exact circumstances which are causing the queue to fail.

In consideration of that argument, the basis in my previous argument is that you nor the poster I was responding to know the variables leading into the failure of the queue system. Without knowing this information you can't place blame on faulty programming as it could be the substantial load from us on the servers that had been unanticipated. Speaking from experience, you cannot take a brand new code base, put a few people on it, and successfully judge how that codebase will handle an unexpected load. That being said, I have no way of knowing what testing was done or not done nor do I know the specifications of the Colo in use. Therefore I in all cases concede my argument in regards to blame as I don't have any facts to support any argument one way or another.

Finally, nobody does. Not you, not the person I was responding to, not the dozens of naysayers out here. Making all speculation mute.


Two points.

First, it is part of SE's job to know how many games they sold and what load their servers can handle. Whether the problem is fundamental to the codebase or based on the number of users is irrelevant, because in either case it was their job to generate a queue system which could handle the load. The fact that many other MMORPGs have successfully done this is relevant, because it demonstrates that this problem is neither insurmountable nor unexpected in the genre -- especially when overloaded servers have not prevented queue systems from working in the past. SE screwed up, and while the specific details of the error may be impossible for us to discern, the fact that they screwed up is not. Judging them to be generally incompetent or dishonest as a result of this error is a matter of opinion.

Second, my post wasn't arguing about the cause of the queue problems. My post was all about you using an argument with a very obvious flaw to try and shut someone up because you didn't like what they posted. If you don't like to be judged based on the words you use, you shouldn't use them.

Lingarn


Can you tell me, at what point, I stated that I don't like to be judged based on the words I use? I'd prefer it. I'd also prefer to be judged on the words that I use throughout the board, not the two posts you selected in order to cast your personal judgement on me.

To whit, the first part of your reply. At no point did I state that SE did a good job or even completed their job. To the contrary, again, based on my prior posts which you're either intentionally or ignorantly ignoring. Regardless, the fact remains, some people are experiencing improvements at this point, and others seem not to be. I, myself, am logged into the game and have had no issue logging out and logging back in. As stated prior, I left for three hours to spending time with my family and returned to an immediate entry into the server I'm on with no queue whatsoever. That being said, it is not outside the realm of the queue system failing. It fails on the games you're referring to. During WoW's launch it failed miserably. To this day it still periodically fails based on load during expansion releases. This is first-hand knowledge, and you can refer to my signature in case you're inclined to claim I haven't played WoW. Systems fail. It happens. In this case it's happening in abundance. The initial days of FFXI experienced the same issues. SW:TOR experienced the same issues. While it's perfectly plausible to assume that a company can learn from these other mistakes, it's equally implausible because to date SE has launched on mainstream MMO, and that is FFXI. They did not launch WoW, STO, SW:TOR, RIFT, etc. This is the first launch for them with this codebase, and as stated, regardless of the reasons, their infrastructure is having a hard time keeping up. Will they learn from this? Yes. Will it help them in the future? Yes. It won't help the next poor sod coming along releasing their own, MMO, though, making it implausible to assume that because one product had launch issues, the next in succession from another author will not. The only way that would be plausible is if SE's programmers came from those other software companies. Also stating that SE had XI's experience to hinge on is also plausible, but fallible. A lot of the talent from 1.0 came from FFXI. My case should be clear in that respect.

EDIT: It's also implausible to surmise that all modern MMO's have resolved their load issues. If by load we're measuring capacity as well, which seems to be a favorite among our posters here, let me point your eyes towards this gem:

Screenshot


Not even Blizzard, the MMO giant of this time, has worked out server capacity issues. To expect FFXIV:ARR to be 100% flawless with limitless load and capacity capabilities is flawed, to say the least.

Now, if I may politely and respectfully ask, are you discussing this with me in the spirit of accurate and pointed discussion? Or are you at this point merely posting to prove me incorrect and make an example of me which you can stand on through the duration of your membership on this board? Either is acceptable, and please answer honestly, as I would consider it a breath of fresh air if it be the former, and I would be honored to be held in such esteem as someone to topple if in fact it be the latter.
Edited, Sep 4th 2013 5:57pm by darexius2010

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 6:03pm by darexius2010
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#101 Sep 04 2013 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
As I stated in post #95, I have found the quotes I had sought to quote here:

Quote:
You're not wrong in feeling that way. I definitely feel the same as you in that regard. I'm hopeful that once they're fixed that'll be the end of that. Maybe it, maybe it won't. It doesn't make it excusable, but I'm not going to condemn the developers to death by throat sock for it. It happens, it's beyond our control.


Quote:
Nobody says you don't have the right. You absolutely do have the right.

Let me ask you this. If you are in a crowd of 10 people and waiting at a bar. You're told only 1 can come in and you don't know when people will start leaving so you can get your turn. Nobody is really drinking. Everyone is just sitting there at the bar doing nothing. You stay silent but 7 of the 9 of you start complaining. And complaining. And complaining. Over. And over. Nobody is talking to the bouncer. They are directing it at you and the other person. So you step aside and say, "Hey bud, this place is great. You'll really like it here".

So the others come up and say, "@#%^ YOU @#%^! THIS PLACE @#%^ING SUCKS AND EVERYONE STANDING IN LINE IS A TOTAL IDIOT. IF YOU DONT LEAVE NOW YOU'RE A @#%^ING MORON. @#%^ PONIES AND sh*t YO!"

So you keep on talking to the other guy. Then a whole different set of people step between you and your calm conversation and start doing the same thing. Their only purpose is to cause strife.

Nobody is talking to the bouncer. They're just turning it towards the crowd and trying to incite riot.

Would you rather have that happen? Or would you rather sit with your friend and have a friendly conversation while you wait? Would you deck everyone speaking? Would you leave?

What kind of person are you?

Nobody wants to be miserable in life. ZAM isn't the reason the errors are happening. The community wasn't founded on strife. A bunch of people got together that like to play games. That's what we all are here. Do you want an entire board drowned out in nothing but chaos because you have an opinion? Or do you want to have a pleasant time waiting for things to resolve themselves (things outside your control), have fun and interesting conversation with others like you in the same situation you are in, and enjoy the game when things settle down?

Nobody wants to be miserable and that includes you. You and you alone are in control of your own reactions and your own feelings. Not SE. Not ZAM. Not some dude making long posts about emo stuff. I want to be happy in life and a game isn't going to affect that. Don't let it do the same to you. You can contribute to positive banter just as well as negative banter. At the end of the day you will know that you aren't alone and that you made someone else feel better about a pain you both share equally.


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Being one of those people I can sympathize. I had no issue logging in for the longest time but presently I'm unable to. It is rather infurating.

I think you'll find the difference in the response from the community is that good well constructed posts, such as yours, are fantastic and welcomed. You stated your case clearly, shared your thoughts, your thoughts are very valid and presented in a very adult-like fashion. The responses so far have been terrific.

The difference between your post and some others is the presentation. People are lashing out uncontrollably at everything and anything they can grasp at. They're screaming bloody murder, making inane threats and insults to other forum members unnecessarily, and otherwise throwing an overall tantrum.

On the flip side of the coin, there are clearly those who are doing the same in defense of the game and unnecessarily lashing out at those who can't play, such as yourself. It's regretable, but both sides are doing it, and neither are right to do so.
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