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Welp, Gearscore has infected itFollow

#52 Sep 03 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Saw a dude on excalibur yesterday shouting for a pug garuda hard-mode, get this though: only experienced need apply. I shouted back dude your shouting for a pug, whats wrong your FC not experienced enough?


A bit rude. I typically ignore people in game I see making comments like that. However, at the same time, why shout for 'experienced' players in shout. It's not like the game keeps a digital resume of their average dps/W:L ratio/etc for you to peruse.

Personally I just queue for stuff. I join, we win, or we don't, if we aren't winning and I know what to do, I tell people what to do (politely), if I don't know what to do, I start asking, 'Hey what can we do differently?' If no one knows, or it literally seems hopeless after 5-10 attempts, I politely resign from the instance and queue again when possible.
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#53 Sep 03 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mopdaddy wrote:
Why does this bother you? It has no effect on you yet you complain...


Lots of things may not affect us personally -- such as child slavery in Africa, terrible working conditions in third-world countries, animal cages too small to let the creatures stand, genocide campaigns on the other side of the globe, and so on -- but that doesn't mean someone can't find fault with them. Granted the present issue is a mere trifle compared to such world events, but this is an online forum dedicated to a single video game. Whether someone is affected directly is rather immaterial if the person recognizes a wider or lamentable result.
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#54 Sep 03 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
KaneKitty wrote:
Lots of things may not affect us personally -- such as child slavery in Africa, terrible working conditions in third-world countries, animal cages too small to let the creatures stand, genocide campaigns on the other side of the globe, and so on -- but that doesn't mean someone can't find fault with them. Granted the present issue is a mere trifle compared to such world events, but this is an online forum dedicated to a single video game. Whether someone is affected directly is rather immaterial if the person recognizes a wider or lamentable result.


You, sir, probably would have done well on a debate team, or at least in English class. Well said. xD

Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 3:01pm by StateAlchemist

Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 3:02pm by StateAlchemist
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#55Mopdaddy, Posted: Sep 03 2013 at 1:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No sorry but that is horrible. And shame on you for comparing it like that.
#56 Sep 03 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Default
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StateAlchemist, Om nom nom... wrote:
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Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elitea select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, higher intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

The term elitism, or the title elitist, are sometimes used by people who are (or claim to be) not a member of an elite organization. In politics, the terms are often used to describe people as being out of touch with the average Joe. The implication is that the alleged elitist person or group thinks they are better than everyone else; and, therefore, put themselves before others. It could be seen as a synonym for snob. An elitist is not always seen as truly elite, but only privileged. The definition may have different appreciations depending of the political contexts. Since elitism may be viewed as something necessary for creating patterns of good intellectual or professional performance, it can be used also for maintaining conditions of lack of competition and privilege.


A wise person, seeking self-improvement, would seek out and cherish the advice of the truly elite. It is one thing to be a ****, it is another to be so **** good that people would do well to learn from you. If you can tell the difference, then you are one step closer to being my friend.


From that bolded part I must now call myself elite.
#58 Sep 03 2013 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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If this game is going to rely on good endgame PVE...you are going to need to know if people are capable of end game content.

Nothing is worse than someone skipping all the hard mode dungeons, trying to raid, and just not being prepared...not just with the right gear but also with the mechanics that the HM dungeons teach you.

If they didn't have gear scores, people would just inspect your gear to make sure you are capable of the content (like in rift)

Mind you a popular endgame mechanic is a gear check and a DPS check...I can already see the nail for Ifrit as being a hard DPS check for hardmode.

Perhaps Titan and his aoes that hit everyone would make a great gear check for hardmode.

You don't want to wipe and ruin a run just because someone decided to skip content...the dungeons mechanically want to make sure you are not doing this...therefore its not crazy to ask people if they are capable...either by gear score or gear inspection...to make sure you have done the proper content and are capable.

Mind you their goal was to make this game a hardcore game. They have already said that some of the end game content will "make you cry" its so hard. This is all preparation for it...if you don't want to be a part of this kind of culture, find a casual FC...but mind you that youll probably have an extremely difficult time doing endgame content if you have people who are skipping content and missing gear. Just the nature of the beast.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 5:19pm by Strangerous
#59 Sep 03 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Strangerous wrote:
If this game is going to rely on good endgame PVE...you are going to need to know if people are capable of end game content.

If you only want to run end game content with people who can clear it 100% of the time in the shortest amount of time, don't do it with PUGs.
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#60 Sep 03 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
[quote=Quor]
3) People are horribly geared coming out of the story. I don't blame anyone for this, as long as they themselves are appropriately geared. What was being advertised, anyway? 60 is the highest unless you have a relic, which is 70. It's a very simple system.


Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 10:28am by Louiscool


Are relics really only level 70?

I dont have any relics but I have the Galls Bladder weapons for all of my jobs and they are level 70. OK, so I can load them up with materia but I would have expected relics to be much better. THought I read they were going to be 85.

And FYI, I was refused entry to a party for not having a relic weapon. The irony is that it was a fight needed to progress the relic weapon process I need to do to get my relic weapon (forget the name of the fight now).
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#61 Sep 03 2013 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
And FYI, I was refused entry to a party for not having a relic weapon. The irony is that it was a fight needed to progress the relic weapon process I need to do to get my relic weapon (forget the name of the fight now).


This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The "you can't come to get this thing because you need to get this thing in order for us to take you to get this thing" mentality.

The jerkward in WoW saying you need a green gearscore for this raid while he himself has a yellow (and anyone with green wouldn't want to run said raid anyway).

The people saying you need to "know this fight" when there are maybe a few dozen people on the server even capable of Q'ing up for it. The idiots wanting potential groupmates to have the achievement for the raid they are about to run on the day the raid opens.

Sure, we can ignore them. But to say that ignoring them is enough is naive. Those are the people that helped turn WoW into what it is now, for better or for worse, and if we let things be I'm afraid FF14 will follow that same path. I like what FF14 has now, and I like what it all means. I like feeling like the stuff I do has meaning, even though we all know deep down inside it's just the Matrix on some server in Montreal. I don't like it being reduced down to a series of numbers and ratings to determine eligibility to play the game. This isn't to say I like gross stupidity; an LS mate ran Stone Vigil with some Duty Finder pugs (WHM and BLM) who were in crafting gear. In a high level instance. That is *not* ok. But by the same token, requiring full knowledge of Stone Vigil and at least half a dozen pieces of gear sourced from SV is also not ok.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 3:24pm by Quor
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#62 Sep 03 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Ugh. This is the exact kind of crap that makes me hate gear score.
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#63 Sep 03 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Am i missing something where do you see a gear score? I feel so outta the mmo loop, only played two mmo' ffxi and dungeons and dragons online and i never ran into gear scoreing and not letting people join a group based on gear. I just feel its weird breakin down everything into numbers and haven DPS trackers and counters sounds like most of those people should just play with microsoft excel, i just wanna fight and kill epic monsters.
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#64 Sep 03 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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IMFW wrote:
Am i missing something where do you see a gear score? I feel so outta the mmo loop, only played two mmo' ffxi and dungeons and dragons online and i never ran into gear scoreing and not letting people join a group based on gear. I just feel its weird breakin down everything into numbers and haven DPS trackers and counters sounds like most of those people should just play with microsoft excel, i just wanna fight and kill epic monsters.


GearScore was a WoW addon that quickly inspected the gear of the person you were targeting and reduced it down to a number based on item level and quality.

Actually the tool itself is quite useful because it gives you an at-a-glance idea of someone's current level of gear, but what the WoW community did with it was appalling.

In the following expansion, Blizzard added a stat that was just "average item level" that did more or less the same thing but in a far less harmful way.
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#65 Sep 03 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
The only thing Item level is used for at the moment is to determine how easy it is to put a non-standard materia onto an item. That is it.
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#66 Sep 03 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist, Om nom nom... wrote:
Gear score means nothing in FFXIV. Well maybe not 'nothing' but I will take a 'skilled' player over a 'geared' player anyday. ****, you think something can only be done with 'blah blah blah' gear level? Please let me get a PT of 8 naked people and show you how wrong you are. Might take a while though... ><


I agree with your overall sentiment but there comes a point where gear matters.


IDC how skilled of a WHM you are, you aren't going to be able to hack it if your sitting in sub-level 20 gear going into endgame content.

-NW
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#67 Sep 03 2013 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
Gear level won't be the same kind of issue in this game as it was in FFXI. The best gear only requires a group of friends from your FC and it's not terribly difficult to down the current content from what I've been told by those who have. It won't take finding a static group that has 10 hours to farm **** just to spawn a boss to have a chance @ one piece for 1 of 18 people in line. The design just isn't that way anymore. There is nothing to worry about.
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#68 Sep 03 2013 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope this mentality, as well as the mouth breathing buffoons that currently inhabit Coerthas, are gone once the free trial runs out.
#69 Sep 03 2013 at 8:10 PM Rating: Default
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Solonuke wrote:
I hope it won't turn out like current FFXI where you need Delve weapon before getting one. That and monetizing wins (selling party invites for 30 million gil anyone?).


This is a childish stance. They can kill it so well that they don't need to fill an alliance and thus sell a spot to fund their group..and you think that's wrong? If you have money to burn (more people than not do from currency farming and the old blinker selling method), don't want to deal with a PUG group, and aren't in a progressive group yourself I fail to see how it's an issue.

Simply not having the money or not seeing it as a good buy (best weapons for probably the entire life of the expansion) isn't a reason to shun someone else.

Now, as far as needing Delve weapons to do the starter content? Yes, we both agree that's idiotic as ****. Especially when you see morons start to require megaboss weapons to do old content like NNI.
#70 Sep 03 2013 at 8:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Transmigration the Charming wrote:
Gear level won't be the same kind of issue in this game as it was in FFXI. The best gear only requires a group of friends from your FC and it's not terribly difficult to down the current content from what I've been told by those who have. It won't take finding a static group that has 10 hours to farm sh*t just to spawn a boss to have a chance @ one piece for 1 of 18 people in line. The design just isn't that way anymore. There is nothing to worry about.


While I see your point, I disagree. I think it *is* something to worry about, because if it's left as is, it'll only get worse.

I want this game to grow and succeed. While I also hope that what Shona said comes true to a certain extent (with the goal of, ideally, separating the chaff from the proverbial wheat), I want this game to see success. That means the availability of all aspects of content to all peoples. Not a casualization of things (as is often the concern) but more the potential for a person who may not have the time to dedicate to a "raiding" FC or LS yet still wants some kind of character progression with a given job.

Gearscore (not the mod itself per se, but what it represented, and the people who abused it) took the personal nature out of WoW. Instead of sizing a person up and making a judgement yourself, you let this mod tell you at a glance whether or not the person was worthwhile. I met plenty of amazing players who wore greens and blues in vanilla WoW, not to mention BC and Wrath. I raided with them, did pvp with them, and eventually they got better gear. But had those people come along months later, they would have been stonewalled by a large majority of the playerbase who erroneously believe that gear somehow equates to skill.

And that last bit is what I fear most. Not elitism, in any definition provided. Not a misuse of a mod. It's the idea that if you aren't geared then you need to "git gud," but we won't accept you to the party in order to get access to the stuff you need to "git gud." It's a catch-22, and nothing makes a player feel mired in hopelessness (and more likely to quit) like knowing you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

To be fair, I've met a lot of GREAT people in FF14 so far, both on server and off. It's so nice, having that old FF11 feeling from before. But I see it in Coerthas, Mor Dhona, and Western Thanalan....the echoes of Barrens chat. The "***** you and how you feel, it's just a game, get over it nerd" attitude that underlies so many 'net interactions. Gearscore, and what it implies, is just another manifestation of that. And quite honestly, if I wanted that, I'd go to WoW. But I don't want that. I want Final Fantasy. I want standards sure (realistic ones), but to take a number as the sum total of a person's worth, like some kind of HR employee running applications through a word filter, checking for buzzword matches? **** that and **** anyone who believes that way.

So I can either sit back and let it be, watching it get worse as time goes by, or I can say "No, this is *not* ok" and try to do something to stop it.
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#71 Sep 03 2013 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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There is a stark difference between the effect of gear in FFXIV or even FFXI vs WoW.

In XIV, gear plays far less of a role in how you perform versus WoW. Tanks for example... adding stats to parry in WoW always has an impact where in XIV, it seems you have to attain a certain amount of a stat to break a tier and increase the value. I'm not sure how it plays out in practice because I still haven't had any meaningful amount of time to spend in XIV, but I don't understand it just at a glance.

It doesn't make sense to me that you can add a significant amount of an attribute that has no real impact on your performance.

Back on topic, raidscore(based on your raid experience) has more of an impact for most people in WoW these days than gearscore does. Few groups have excessively high demands for gearscore. If they do, it's usually deep into a patch and only because they're farming and want quick and easy runs. If you're running the LFR(same as duty finder), completing weekly quests, killing world spawns, getting reputation gear and earning your weekly point cap then it's easy to get to where you need to be even if you've never set foot in a normal raid.
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#72 Sep 03 2013 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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You can't craft 2 stars tier recipe without AF clothes (iLvl 55) as bare minimum, how do you deal with that? There's no but, there's no skillz, there's nothing but a solid craftsmanship/control check.
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#73 Sep 03 2013 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quor wrote:
Not even a week into "official" release too. Already saw people in Mor Dhona advertising their ilvl and/or what ilvl they wanted minimum before invite. I died a bit inside.


What pleases me about this is that it saves me the trouble about getting involved with their group. As in, those aren't the kind of people I want to hang with.

I'm more impressed with people who can beat the Primals naked than how amazing their gear was when they did it.
#74 Sep 03 2013 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
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You're more impressed with people that don't exist that people who you think are kind of ****** That seems strange.
No amount of skill will matter if you don't have the gear for the encounter. A 'good' player will have the skill and the gear. If someone seems skilled but are not geared then they are not that good to begin with.
#75 Sep 03 2013 at 11:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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[quote=Sigue]You're more impressed with people that don't exist that people who you think are kind of **************

Oh they exist all right.

#76 Sep 03 2013 at 11:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Here's the thing. Everything in the game can be defeated with nothing but AF gear and nothing else (including waist/accessories.) Excluding anyone due to gear is silly considering anyone at 50 gets the AF for free. Setting that, as a standard, is acceptable.
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#77 Sep 03 2013 at 11:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Xoie wrote:
[quote=Sigue]You're more impressed with people that don't exist that people who you think are kind of **************

Oh they exist all right.


My point exactly. Good luck ever convincing me that gear is a necessity. You would be surprised what tenacious skilled players can do.
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#78 Sep 04 2013 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Someone's "gearscore" means very little when it comes to how they perform in battle.
Someone could be wearing gear 10 levels below their current level and if they understand the fight or at least have willingness to learn and a good attitude and the awareness to avoid red circles and certain boss attacks, I'll take that person over the 1337-talking jackass who insults everyone in the group and is condescending just because they're wearing a certain piece of equipment. And someone who doesn't understand boss mechanics who got carried by their FC.
Those are the extremes and there's millions of people in between, but in the end it's just a game. There's no winning at FFXIV. There's just fun and enjoying the game with people.
Everyone likes to get better gear and clear content. Absolutely no reason to exclude people unless they're being a douchewad.
Helping people out is nice. I know there's a lack of low level healers. So last night, even though I'm in my 40's, I queue'ed up for Sastasha and some low level guildhests. They popped immediately so clearly groups are waiting for healers. I wish more people would have this approach. Going forward, I hope this way of playing becomes more prevalent when people realize you can't win at this game. Content patches in MMO's are months apart. What's the rush?

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:04am by ShonaSeraph
#79 Sep 04 2013 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
You can't craft 2 stars tier recipe without AF clothes (iLvl 55) as bare minimum, how do you deal with that? There's no but, there's no skillz, there's nothing but a solid craftsmanship/control check.


I am wearing level 50 crafting gear with materia and using food and getting the required stats to craft 2 star items. Noted that I have very good jewellery and have filled every materia spot but it can be done.

......does raise the question though why I dont just craft the AF crafting sets - I really must get to that.
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#80 Sep 04 2013 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:
Khornette wrote:
You can't craft 2 stars tier recipe without AF clothes (iLvl 55) as bare minimum, how do you deal with that? There's no but, there's no skillz, there's nothing but a solid craftsmanship/control check.


I am wearing level 50 crafting gear with materia and using food and getting the required stats to craft 2 star items. Noted that I have very good jewellery and have filled every materia spot but it can be done.

......does raise the question though why I dont just craft the AF crafting sets - I really must get to that.


Then you would need 2 pairs of crafting gears to do that, one for Craftsmanship one for Control. What I'm saying is you need AF to be able to do both in one set of gears.

There also are no lvl 50 crafting gears not AF/Militia/Relic, all normal gears capped at 49.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 3:22am by Khornette
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#81 Sep 04 2013 at 3:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teracide wrote:


I think people are just naturally afraid to be judged harshly. No one wants to be told that they're not good enough. Truth is, though, if your gear isn't very good, and you know it isn't very good, but yet you still expect to go to group events, you're essentially expecting to get carried by everyone else. That, to me, is worse than someone getting turned down because of below-par gear.


It's not really being judged harshly that people are afraid of. It is being unable to play the game at all. You may be good at reaction time and reliability, as well as well mannered, something that became rare in FFXI but you can't prove this unless you play with others. The stopping point is your gear. If it don't match your gameplay/social skills, people will not take you seriously. And I'm not saying everyone is like this - but often the good geared players are the worst players to be around. Ready to give up on you at a moments notice. You can't make mistakes(human factors are void with them), and admitting/taking responsibility for your mistakes(being a man/woman about it) means very little to these players.

Now you're gonna feel pressured to get better, and this is going to weigh heavily on your mind. After awhile it turns to poison. Combined with the fact that your invitation rate is deteriorating. You look at the AH and you think to yourself, what are your options? What can you do to be the best you can be for others, because doing it for yourself will not be based on their expectations. OK time to get the tools you need to farm.. time to see what times farmed items are "camped" so that you can arrive when there is no competition. Oh wait..that's right, the gear people are expecting of you is RARE/EX. And since this requires HELP from said highly geared players, despite DEMANDING you to get "like them" they will not help you become geared like them.

So if you don't have a static(I never had this in all my 9yrs in FFXI) or a GOOD LS with players who do have the morality to help others attain new heights. You are screwed and left with the option to quit.




Edited, Sep 4th 2013 5:13am by Zaleshea
#82 Sep 04 2013 at 3:22 AM Rating: Good
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Mopdaddy wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Mopdaddy wrote:
Why does this bother you? It has no effect on you yet you complain...


Lots of things may not affect us personally -- such as child slavery in Africa, terrible working conditions in third-world countries, animal cages too small to let the creatures stand, genocide campaigns on the other side of the globe, and so on -- but that doesn't mean someone can't find fault with them. Granted the present issue is a mere trifle compared to such world events, but this is an online forum dedicated to a single video game. Whether someone is affected directly is rather immaterial if the person recognizes a wider or lamentable result.

No sorry but that is horrible. And shame on you for comparing it like that.

Also what is with people rating down posts? It is childish.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2013 4:40pm by Mopdaddy


Your posts get rated down due to the content within. Post something worthwhile someday and it might not get rated down, although at this point, with your reputation, you'll probably get rated down anyway. Of course, considering that you'd have to actually post something worthwhile for us to find this out, we'll likely never know.
#83 Sep 04 2013 at 3:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Some one had mentioned the old Icc days yeah but it was near the end of woltk and mind you i quit because I was a end raid guild 4th on my server and I would some times go as a stand in heal with fow who was server first ally side.... we downed naxx in like the first week of Lich king and I was full t7.5 in two weeks after release.. that was a gear score only minor points above 4 k. I come back and ppl tell me I needed 5k or better wtf get out of here I was killing this **** before they even hit 75..... And my guild downed it our first time in barely any heroic 5man purps we were all like t6 purps and Lvl 80 blues and only 16 Raiders so all my kills are the less is more achieves cause we were specific on if we took extras or not. .... So this is proof skill will always out weigh gear. gearscore is for the badly skilled no matter what game you play. there is nothing wrong with appropriate gear for what your doing. no I would not take a person in all greens to a epic raid but I wouldnt take some one with a hawtie attitude either. I stuff that in its **** by being the raid leader as tank or heals.. That is my best way around it. If it's started here too there should be SE guided gear reqs on the duty finder. I found that nipped it in other games cause it brings an argument to the table that those with ej attitudes can't fight. I'm sorry but the masses can't always be on grinding their lives away to be a slave to the teen with summer vacations or the 35 year old still in mommas basement...
#84 Sep 04 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zaleshea wrote:
Teracide wrote:
I think people are just naturally afraid to be judged harshly. No one wants to be told that they're not good enough. Truth is, though, if your gear isn't very good, and you know it isn't very good, but yet you still expect to go to group events, you're essentially expecting to get carried by everyone else. That, to me, is worse than someone getting turned down because of below-par gear.


It's not really being judged harshly that people are afraid of. It is being unable to play the game at all. You may be good at reaction time and reliability, as well as well mannered, something that became rare in FFXI but you can't prove this unless you play with others. The stopping point is your gear. If it don't match your gameplay/social skills, people will not take you seriously. And I'm not saying everyone is like this - but often the good geared players are the worst players to be around. Ready to give up on you at a moments notice. You can't make mistakes(human factors are void with them), and admitting/taking responsibility for your mistakes(being a man/woman about it) means very little to these players.


There's definitely a balance that has to be struck. Even I've complained about how frustrating it is to heal tanks who wear strength gear to a Duty Finder activity rather than suit up for absorbing damage. But I'd never take the attitude that unless the tank has a certain minimum standard of HQ gear I'm disconnecting and taking the next group. There's plenty of cheap and easy-to-get NQ gear that does the job just fine, and that's where my expectation ends.

But as for how well you play, there's something to be said for winning under less than ideal conditions. You may end up failing more often, but those losses can forge a much better player who has an intimate understanding of the limits of the game. I'd say groups that roll with people who have a complete set of endgame HQ sextuple-meld gear only are in a sense being carried themselves. If the primary concern is "looking good," then you avoid taking risks because you're afraid of looking bad in front of anyone else. And without taking risks, you never improve your game.
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