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Sales figures (Japan) for ARRFollow

#1 Sep 04 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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The charts are in (hi btw) and in Japan, FFXIV hit the charts at number 2 (just behind •JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: All-Star Battle - a class name for a game that).

Okay, SE said the servers hold 4,000 people and they had 50 servers, 50 * 4,000 = 200,000, just keep that in mind.

Sales of FFXIV A Realm Reborn, god I'm dragging this out, lovely weather today, yes?

•Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn (PS3, Square Enix) - 184.018

The Japanese could fill the servers up almost on their own (note, it says PS3 but I don't know if that is just PS3 or includes PC sales for an overall number, it also doesn't take into account 1.0 players who bought the PS3 version etc so the number of new players for that is an unknown quantity).

Source?

CVG Showing The Charts In Japan

Also of note, Sony is refunding all PS3 users who purchased the game on the 27th and 28th of August (I'm in the EU so that's EU news). I already used up my posting rights on the XIV official forums so can't divulge the figures there.

/edit - spelt figures wrong in the title, go figure :P

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 3:31pm by Lexxuk
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#2 Sep 04 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max. Plus, if you add the new servers, it would put them just over 400,000.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 3:24pm by OnyxFFXI
#3 Sep 04 2013 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
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OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max, adding the new ones would put them just over 400,000.


Still shy of what they should have IMO... they did give out over 1 million beta codes...

They should have prepared for this.
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#4 Sep 04 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Indeed, the question on everyones mind (other than will Kiera Knightly marry me) is did SE have access to the figures to expect almost 200,000 Japanese players? And no, Keira Knightly will not marry you, she wants to marry me :D I wish :(
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#5 Sep 04 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max. Plus, if you add the new servers, it would put them just over 400,000.


Adding new servers is what gave them the ability to increase worlds from 5000 to 7800...


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 3:53pm by FilthMcNasty
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#6 Sep 04 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max. Plus, if you add the new servers, it would put them just over 400,000.


Adding new servers is what gave them the ability to increase servers from 5000 to 7800...



I mean the new "worlds" that they added (ie Pandemonium) - In addition to adding capacity to the current worlds by adding servers. Each world is made of several servers which is why you will notice problems with only certain zones at times. Its because a specific server that controls that zone is having trouble, while the other servers are fine.


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 3:38pm by OnyxFFXI
#7 Sep 04 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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When you do your math you have to include the word concurrent.
Just because you have 1,000,000 sales doesn't mean all 1,000,000 will be online at once.
They probably figured global sales would be around 500,000 and when you factor in timezones, assume only half of them would be on at any given time. When FFXI was in it's prime, if NA and JP primetime overlapped the servers would've crashed. But timezones made it so only about half the server's population was on at any given time.
#8 Sep 04 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max. Plus, if you add the new servers, it would put them just over 400,000.


Adding new servers is what gave them the ability to increase servers from 5000 to 7800...


Respectfully, I don't think so. Think of a server as an individual large computer. To increase server capacity would be like buying a bigger hard drive for the computer to hold more stuff. If you needed more space on your PC at home, you would not buy another computer and interlink them in some confounded way, you would instead just buy a bigger hard drive. Thats what they did to increase server capacity, just bought bigger hard drives for all the servers. And then they bought a three more servers with the same new capacity hard drive to each run a world. And I believe they bought another server to handle the duty finder load (those three are shared). I could be way off, but that is how I envision the process.
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#9 Sep 04 2013 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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They probably also didn't realize just how much strain they created by differentiating data centers. They probably looked at internal data on XI and legacy servers, but now almost every single person on NA/EU is grouped on a specific 20 worlds, and almost every single person in Japan is grouped on a specific 20 worlds. There's no spread, if you took half the NA/EU players and moved them to the 20 JP worlds they would be logging on at opposite times, and the same with the JP players. They should've counted on that and added more worlds once they made that decision.

It will all even out though, it's just another thing that tightened things up.
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#10 Sep 04 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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But that's all Japanese sales (doesn't include NA/EU) so you would expect the majority of those people to be trying to connect during JP prime time, then you get 1.0 users who didn't buy the PS3 version on top of that and that becomes a fair few Japanese players trying to log in during JP prime time.

They really should have had the details on their desk of how many PS3 clients had been sold/pre-ordered, my best guess is that the server infrastructure was finalised before P3 started, it takes a while for everything to get organised so they set it up for 50 servers and left that as the plan during P3 and P4 rather than push back the release date to put in more hardware etc.
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#11 Sep 04 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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OnyxFFXI wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max. Plus, if you add the new servers, it would put them just over 400,000.


Adding new servers is what gave them the ability to increase servers from 5000 to 7800...



I mean the new "worlds" that they added (ie Pandemonium) - In addition to adding capacity to the current worlds by adding servers. Each world is made of several servers which is why you will notice problems with only certain zones at times. Its because a specific server that controls that zone is having trouble, while the other servers are fine.


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 3:38pm by OnyxFFXI



Are you sure that several servers control one world? That does not make much logical sense. Do you have a source for this information? I respectfully do not believe that you are correct and would like to be convinced.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:46pm by Valkayree
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#12 Sep 04 2013 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Valkayree wrote:
OnyxFFXI wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max. Plus, if you add the new servers, it would put them just over 400,000.


Adding new servers is what gave them the ability to increase servers from 5000 to 7800...



I mean the new "worlds" that they added (ie Pandemonium) - In addition to adding capacity to the current worlds by adding servers. Each world is made of several servers which is why you will notice problems with only certain zones at times. Its because a specific server that controls that zone is having trouble, while the other servers are fine.


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 3:38pm by OnyxFFXI



Are you sure that several servers control one world? That does not make much logical sense. Do you have a source for this information? I respectfully do not believe that you are correct and would like to be convinced.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 2:46pm by Valkayree


although we don't know how there servers are set up, yes this can be possible. think of it like this:

1 server is for the gridania region, 1 fr ul'dah, 1 for limsa. Thats 3 servers controlling 1 world. I'm not saying this is how it is, but this is how it can be done.
#13 Sep 04 2013 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Valkayree wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max. Plus, if you add the new servers, it would put them just over 400,000.


Adding new servers is what gave them the ability to increase servers from 5000 to 7800...


Respectfully, I don't think so. Think of a server as an individual large computer. To increase server capacity would be like buying a bigger hard drive for the computer to hold more stuff. If you needed more space on your PC at home, you would not buy another computer and interlink them in some confounded way, you would instead just buy a bigger hard drive. Thats what they did to increase server capacity, just bought bigger hard drives for all the servers. And then they bought a three more servers with the same new capacity hard drive to each run a world. And I believe they bought another server to handle the duty finder load (those three are shared). I could be way off, but that is how I envision the process.


Updated my post to show I meant worlds and not servers, but it doesn't work the way you think it does.

SE didn't go get bigger servers. They added more servers. If I need more space on my PC at home I just go get another HD. I don't replace the HD I already have, I just add more. That's what SE did here. They also split the load of the DF. Instead of pulling from a pool of the entire population of XIV, when you queue up now you only pull from the group that the world you are on shares with other worlds.
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#14 Sep 04 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
Are you sure that several servers control one world? That does not make much logical sense. Do you have a source for this information? I respectfully do not believe that you are correct and would like to be convinced.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/73680-Further-Details-on-Access-Restrictions
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A server is essentially a high-spec PC, with each FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn World being made up of several of these machines.
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#15 Sep 04 2013 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Mind you that the server were able to handle 4000 concurrent connections. They do not expect every single person who has the game and is registered to that server to be online at once.

This is where it gets murky and we go to guess work on how many people have purchased the game.

Did they allow 10k accounts per server? 5k? 20k? I really don't know what a reasonable percentage of people being connected that have the game is.
#16 Sep 04 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Updated my post to show I meant worlds and not servers, but it doesn't work the way you think it does.

SE didn't go get bigger servers. They added more servers. If I need more space on my PC at home I just go get another HD. I don't replace the HD I already have, I just add more. That's what SE did here. They also split the load of the DF. Instead of pulling from a pool of the entire population of XIV, when you queue up now you only pull from the group that the world you are on shares with other worlds.


Were not saying they replaced the servers. They increased the capacity ( not hard drive capacity but population / concurrent connection limit) by adding more servers to the cluster. The way most MMO's work is that one realm or world cannot possibly be handled by one single server. So, they use clustered computing which makes several servers work together to run the services necessary to create the online experience.


Valkayree wrote:

Are you sure that several servers control one world? That does not make much logical sense. Do you have a source for this information? I respectfully do not believe that you are correct and would like to be convinced.


From Yoshi-P: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/73680

Quote:
A server is essentially a high-spec PC, with each FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn World being made up of several of these machines. Creating a new World involves physically acquiring the servers, installing the necessary programs, and conducting internal functionality tests...all before opening the World to the public.


Were so used to referring to worlds as servers that we tend to picture it as just one "black box" somewhere in a data center. But in reality, it is several racks of these black boxes. When WoW updated their servers recently, they auctioned off all the old server blades: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3710218

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 5:42pm by OnyxFFXI
#17 Sep 04 2013 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max. Plus, if you add the new servers, it would put them just over 400,000.


Adding new servers is what gave them the ability to increase servers from 5000 to 7800...


Respectfully, I don't think so. Think of a server as an individual large computer. To increase server capacity would be like buying a bigger hard drive for the computer to hold more stuff. If you needed more space on your PC at home, you would not buy another computer and interlink them in some confounded way, you would instead just buy a bigger hard drive. Thats what they did to increase server capacity, just bought bigger hard drives for all the servers. And then they bought a three more servers with the same new capacity hard drive to each run a world. And I believe they bought another server to handle the duty finder load (those three are shared). I could be way off, but that is how I envision the process.


Updated my post to show I meant worlds and not servers, but it doesn't work the way you think it does.

SE didn't go get bigger servers. They added more servers. If I need more space on my PC at home I just go get another HD. I don't replace the HD I already have, I just add more. That's what SE did here. They also split the load of the DF. Instead of pulling from a pool of the entire population of XIV, when you queue up now you only pull from the group that the world you are on shares with other worlds.


Well that's the problem then. Seems really inefficient (and a coding nightmare) to have to pull from multiple hard drives to create a composite, when it would take seemingly a lot less energy and code to have it all run off of one large capacity drive.
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#18 Sep 04 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
Well that's the problem then. Seems really inefficient (and a coding nightmare) to have to pull from multiple hard drives to create a composite, when it would take seemingly a lot less energy and code to have it all run off of one large capacity drive.


This is the way all modern networks work. Distributed computing may not make sense to you, but it is how most large networks handle huge amounts of traffic. It INCREASE the efficiency to divide the tasks up between different servers because they all handle their tasks in parallel.
#19 Sep 04 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for that link. Obviously I am not a network specialist. Now ask me about DOS code and we'll see Smiley: grin

The link says:

"A server is essentially a high-spec PC, with each FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn World being made up of several of these machines. Creating a new World involves physically acquiring the servers, installing the necessary programs, and conducting internal functionality tests...all before opening the World to the public."

So when they say that the number of concurrent users per server went from 5000 to 7500-7800, this means that in reality they may have increased the actual world population from 15,000 to 22,500 because lets say 3 servers are running a world? Or instead did they just buy a few more high spec pcs for each world? Just trying to get a grasp on the logic. There seems to be a lot of misinformation and confusion and OnyxFFXi you seem like you have your facts straight.


Edited, Sep 4th 2013 4:25pm by Valkayree

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 4:25pm by Valkayree
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#20 Sep 04 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:

So when they say that the number of concurrent users per server went from 5000 to 7500-7800, this means that in reality they may have increased the actual world population from 15,000 to 22,500 because lets say 3 servers are running a world? Or instead did they just buy a few more high spec pcs for each world? Just trying to get a grasp on the logic. There seems to be a lot of misinformation and confusion and OnyxFFXi you seem like you have your facts straight.


No, this is more confusion due to the use of the term "server" when he means "world". So the increased cap per world is 7500-7800.
#21 Sep 04 2013 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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It's not really that inefficient with modern technology (Gigabit networking helps). Say you have 4 servers per world, you can have 1 server for Limsa and areas, one for Uldah and areas and one for Grid and areas the 4th server will be a database, you skip on over to the Limsa areas and the database stays the same, you're just on a different physical server.

If there were just two servers (you really do keep the database on it's own) then if Uldah was it's usual overloaded area, the other areas would start to suffer because the processing power is required for Uldah so you'd get lag everywhere, by splitting them up you may have a laggy Uldah but Limsa and Grid won't be suffering.

Now, if you found Uldah to be super laggy and wanted to double it's power you can add another server with exactly the same set up and run it as a cluster ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cluster ) which splits the load between the two systems, it's highly efficient.
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#22 Sep 04 2013 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's similar to how we have multi-core processors and dual/triple channel memory.
One of the common metaphors is a highway. If you need to get more traffic through a highway, you don't make it longer or increase the speed limit, you add more lanes. This way if a car is broken down in a lane, or there is just someone really slowing it down, the rest of the traffic can still flow.
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#23 Sep 04 2013 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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purethulium wrote:
It's similar to how we have multi-core processors and dual/triple channel memory.
One of the common metaphors is a highway. If you need to get more traffic through a highway, you don't make it longer or increase the speed limit, you add more lanes. This way if a car is broken down in a lane, or there is just someone really slowing it down, the rest of the traffic can still flow.


Actually this is wrong.
Adding extra lanes gives the impression that traffic will move smoothly, however, that also causes more people to get on that highway and slow it down yet again. Within a few weeks/months the highway will fill up again and congestion will again be a problem. There is a great book called "High Cost of Free Parking", has to do with urban planning but great read.

Small explanation for those interested.
"Induced traffic may consume much of a roadway’s added capacity within a few years, although highway construction proponents dispute this. Induced traffic is added to the system in both the short-term (new trips induced immediately by the reduced congestion) and the long-term (trips added from new development that was itself encouraged by the added roadway capacity). Historically, decisions to build a new highway or widen a highway or arterial ignored the induced traffic effect of the capacity expansion."

Edited for spoiler.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 6:08pm by ACLinjury
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#24 Sep 04 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:
OnyxFFXI wrote:
After the server capacity upgrades, each world now holds 7500-7800. So 50 * 7,800 = 390,000 max, adding the new ones would put them just over 400,000.


Still shy of what they should have IMO... they did give out over 1 million beta codes...

They should have prepared for this.


I'll post here something I said on the official forums...

"OB registrations mean nothing. Secret World attracted a ton of players for beta but that did not correlate to sales. What was it? One million beta registrations that led to somewhere around 200k sales at launch or shortly thereafter."

#25 Sep 04 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:


Well that's the problem then. Seems really inefficient (and a coding nightmare) to have to pull from multiple hard drives to create a composite, when it would take seemingly a lot less energy and code to have it all run off of one large capacity drive.


The hard drive space is almost certainly not the issue. In fact, I bet that the servers for a world all grab their data from one very fast SAN that costs big bucks.

The issue is in processing power and load balancing. As they are likely using some of the fastest hardware they can get their hands on, it boils down to adding more physical machines and then trying to balance the load as well as you can.

Of course, you never scale on a 1:1 ratio. If you have 5 servers and add another, you will almost never get 20% increase, and the ratio gets worse as you scale out higher.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 6:28pm by Pickins
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#26 Sep 04 2013 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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If you're really interested in network architecture, look up virtualization and load balancing.

I'm the lead architect for a very large ecommerce site, and the principle is the same as a game server. You have an endpoint ( we'll call it a world) which is a load balancer, and behind that you have 1-n number of servers. Your end point splits the processing load upon all the servers as evenly as possible. These aren't high end PC's, it's an entirely different world. As far as hard drives go, they probably aren't even attached to the servers directly, it'll be in something called a storage area network (SAN). Given the throughput that's the only way they could handle pushing that much data back to the storage medium that fast.

So what Yoshi is really doing (and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way to you) is dumbing it down so that non technical people can try to relate. In reality it's a very different setup than what most people are picturing. If you're interested in an example, look up blade servers. They run on the low end $3K each, and you fit 8 in a row, 6 rows in a rack. SE probably filled 20 extra racks with their servers to keep up with demand.

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#27 Sep 04 2013 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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jcavaliere wrote:
If you're really interested in network architecture, look up virtualization and load balancing.

I'm the lead architect for a very large ecommerce site, and the principle is the same as a game server. You have an endpoint ( we'll call it a world) which is a load balancer, and behind that you have 1-n number of servers. Your end point splits the processing load upon all the servers as evenly as possible. These aren't high end PC's, it's an entirely different world. As far as hard drives go, they probably aren't even attached to the servers directly, it'll be in something called a storage area network (SAN). Given the throughput that's the only way they could handle pushing that much data back to the storage medium that fast.

So what Yoshi is really doing (and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way to you) is dumbing it down so that non technical people can try to relate. In reality it's a very different setup than what most people are picturing. If you're interested in an example, look up blade servers. They run on the low end $3K each, and you fit 8 in a row, 6 rows in a rack. SE probably filled 20 extra racks with their servers to keep up with demand.

-j


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#28 Sep 04 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:

And a well deserved scholar to you for that post.


Thanks :)

I just prefer to arm people with knowledge rather than naivety.
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#29 Sep 04 2013 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys are missing the elephant in the room. The login caps on each world have less to do with the number of players a "server" or "world" can hold and much more to do with the fact that the duty finder was grabbing players from all of these worlds. It wasn't the number of players causing instability, it was the way the duty finder was affecting the network that made it unstable. SE said this numerous times. The extra servers and the "clustering" alleviated some of this. It's not that they weren't paying attention to sales as much as they didn't foresee the amount of strain caused by the duty finder.

P.S. I am not a tech guy and definitely not as knowledgeable about the nuts and bolts of this as most of the above posters. But I have been paying attention to what SE has actually been saying. Rather than trying to divine your own theories, maybe you should just start with the information they have provided you.

tl;dr Server caps aren't actually based on the number players a world can hold independently, they are based on the number of players each world can hold without crashing the cross-server duty finder function.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 10:13pm by ChaChaJaJa
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#30 Sep 04 2013 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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Well, each server cluster itself will have a maximum number of connections it can juggle around, too. I'm sure it's hooked up to the Duty Finder servers via fiber channel connections (super duper high grade connections, a thousand times better than what is used to connect your home PC to the router) but it still has to deal with incoming packets from the outside world. For that, it'll have a connection to a network switch too.

So there's still a theoretical maximum number of character transactions each server can handle before it starts getting packet collisions from all the data flowing in and out of each server.
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#31 Sep 04 2013 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Well, each server cluster itself will have a maximum number of connections it can juggle around, too. I'm sure it's hooked up to the Duty Finder servers via fiber channel connections (super duper high grade connections, a thousand times better than what is used to connect your home PC to the router) but it still has to deal with incoming packets from the outside world. For that, it'll have a connection to a network switch too.

So there's still a theoretical maximum number of character transactions each server can handle before it starts getting packet collisions from all the data flowing in and out of each server.

Oh yeah, I'm not arguing that point at all. I'm saying that the current imposed cap probably has more to do with the duty finder functionality/stability than it does with the number of characters an independent server could hold. Which makes a large portion of the above theory crafting about sales figures etc. irrelevant because the issue was networking, not slots for players.
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BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
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