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PS4 Framerate>>>Improved Experience?Follow

#1 Sep 07 2013 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not much of a true tech person but does anyone think that the PS4 will be a better and acceptable experience for the console users?

I'm currently on a PS3 and ran across Odin yesterday (I'm only lvl 23). Things seems fine until about 20+ people showed up and then I couldn't even see Odin or target him anymore. I heard some other PS3 users stating the same thing.

Should I expect once PS4 hits the stores (w/ARR) that my experience would more closely mimic that of a decent computer or am a destined for a bit of a lesser experience and can count myself out of these larger FATES? I'm not needing the best experience but would like to know that these larger FATES are going to be at least doable once I hit level 50.

Thanks
#2 Sep 07 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Yes. The PS4 will blow the PS3 out if the water in performance. Yoshi stated recently that the ps4 version will compete with mid to High settings on a pc. 200+ characters will be viewable at one time.
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#3 Sep 07 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Probably should have searched the internet as I did after reading your response (thanks by the way)....

Here is what Naoki Yoshida said in the interview:

Since the hardware specs of the PS4 are high and Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn will use them to their full potential, there will be a large improvement in the number of characters displayed on screen at the same time compared to the PS3 version, and in the quality of each character. The difference in graphical fidelity will be very visible.
Remote Play with the PS Vita will be fully supported. Yoshida-san makes the example of gathering, fishing, crafting or questing solo while relaxing on the couch on the PS Vita, and then, when the time for party play starts, one can switch to the PS4 to enjoy the challenging dungeon content on the big screen.
A companion app for the PS Vita is planned, including a database and the features of the new Lodestone, but Remote Play is the priority.
It will be possible to point and click in the PS4 version using the touch pad of the DualShock 4, improving the user interface further.
It’ll be possible to upload video using the Share button of the PS4 due to licensing agreements done with voice actors (Japanese laws are rather strict on this), also, videos made with the Share button will be useful to learn how to do difficult high level dungeons.
There will be no change in the content of the game moving from the PS3 version to the PS4 version, as the game will be fully cross platform, so you’ll still be able to play with the same friends.
Yoshida-san encourages players to consider switching to the PS4 version from the PS3 version, because the PS4′s hardware allows for an impressive performance, much better graphics and displaying 100 or 200 people at the same time on the screen. The passage will be immediate and seamless because the servers are the same and transferring character data is not necessary.
When asked about his point of view as a creator on what he likes the most of the PS4 Yoshida-san responded that it’s the memory size, because it gives more freedom of expression and design. You can create higher quality characters and levels. He also appreciates the wider choices of play style represented by the share button, Remote Play and companion apps. He feels that the PS4 will test the development team, making things easier and harder at the same time.
#4 Sep 07 2013 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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From what I can gather the PS4 will preform much like a current medium-high end PC would. ( I don't think it will be able to compete with someone running an SLI titan set up with a six core CPU however, though few have that kind of set up)

No more muddy textures ect.

Im sure it wont lock up as much during zerg fates either, though im sure it will a bit, even high end pc's get lag sometimes


Edited, Sep 7th 2013 2:25pm by Strangerous
#5 Sep 07 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Veagan wrote:
Yes. The PS4 will blow the PS3 out if the water in performance. Yoshi stated recently that the ps4 version will compete with mid to High settings on a pc. 200+ characters will be viewable at one time.

My laptop runs mid to high settings >.>
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#6 Sep 07 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Strangerous wrote:
From what I can gather the PS4 will preform much like a current medium-high end PC would. ( I don't think it will be able to compete with someone running an SLI titan set up with a six core CPU however, though few have that kind of set up)

No more muddy textures ect.

Im sure it wont lock up as much during zerg fates either, though im sure it will a bit, even high end pc's get lag sometimes



Yeah, it's not not really fair to compare a 2,000 dollar SLI GPU configuration to a 400 console. I think what people need to realize is that FFXIV doesn't need over-priced GPU's to play this game. The PS4 version will run this game at 1080 with no popup or muddy textures. A high frame rate is expected too. Basically the PS4 version with the Vita remote feature is the definitive way to play FFXIV. The people that waste ridiculous amounts of money for diminishing returns and e-peen numbers don't get it.

Edited, Sep 7th 2013 1:59pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#7 Sep 07 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The people that waste ridiculous amounts of money for diminishing returns and e-peen numbers don't get it.

The console peasants who haven't seen any improvement in graphics in almost six years, whose piddly games barely tax our mighty altars, are the ones who don't get it.
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#8 Sep 07 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The people that waste ridiculous amounts of money for diminishing returns and e-peen numbers don't get it.

The console peasants who haven't seen any improvement in graphics in almost six years, whose piddly games barely tax our mighty altars, are the ones who don't get it.

#PCMasterRace

Heh. And while a 400 dollar console may be cheaper than a 2000 dollar SLI setup, the thing with the PC is you can start at the lower end, and increases it as needed. Good luck upgrading your console in the decade it lives. And when you upgrade your PC, you rarely have to worry about not being able to play your existing games. Smiley: smile
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#9 Sep 07 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Isn't it funny that a PS3-PS4 question turns into a console vs PC war lol Smiley: oyvey
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#10 Sep 07 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
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Raelix wrote:

The console peasants who haven't seen any improvement in graphics in almost six years, whose piddly games barely tax our mighty altars, are the ones who don't get it.


That's true, I can't argue that high-end rigs aren't taxed by the games also on consoles. I would point out though that gaming companies purposely have held back franchises simply because the uber elite PC class doesn't buy enough software. So you sit there twinkling your thumbs waiting for next gen consoles to come out so you can play them on PC with your monster overpriced rig. If they actually built these games for the PC, the games would look better and be out sooner. But hey, let's rip on the consoles players who are having fun with the same games on lower settings.



TirithRR wrote:


Heh. And while a 400 dollar console may be cheaper than a 2000 dollar SLI setup, the thing with the PC is you can start at the lower end, and increases it as needed. Good luck upgrading your console in the decade it lives. And when you upgrade your PC, you rarely have to worry about not being able to play your existing games. Smiley: smile


So you mustn't be aware of the shifting trend that is phasing out the PC dominance. It's called cloud gaming and once it hits full stride, the PC as we know it will be dead. There is a reason Sony purchased Gaikai and people need to get up to speed with that. The days of the uber spec PC platform are limited. Tablets are leading the charge pushing game companies and software companies in general to support the most lucrative market. Obviously it's more difficult to enhance a console or tablet with raw power so there lies the trump card...cloud gaming. Once they start streaming games well enough that only an input device is required, the end of the PC gaming era is at hand. People think your rig today is impressive, you're living in a fantasy world. The power of the cloud would take that Titan SLI and multiply it by at least 50x the power. The console players will have the last laugh.

As for the PS4, I don't agree with your comment. They've already tipped their hat with one of the new cloud features. Download 1% of the game and stream the rest while you play. Online games will see enhanced gameplay(graphics too) when the PS4 comes out swinging in a few years after Devs are able to push it. The hardware era is over. Like the physical copy era of discs, we've moved on to digital for most of our entertainment needs. The cloud is the next evolutionary step that will phase out the hardware building class of gamers. It will take likely 10 more years, but it's close. The PS4 will be fine down the road.

Edited, Sep 7th 2013 2:40pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#11 Sep 07 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
People think your rig today is impressive, you're living in a fantasy world. The power of the cloud would take that Titan SLI and multiply it by at least 50x the power. The console players will have the last laugh.


You're kidding yourself if you think once the "cloud" becomes active that it will be a console exclusive thing, and that the shift to tablets and small PCs won't affect Consoles just as much as it would high end PCs. You think the PC gaming rigs as we know it are dying? The console as you know it is dying. Why spend money on something that can only play games, cannot be upgraded, and has less and less backward compatibility as they keep changing the architecture?
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#12 Sep 07 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Default
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Well if what im hearing about ps3 is true, can't even target? that would make this game unplayable so i will just assume if i get a ps4 that SE will give me a free copy of this game.
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#13 Sep 07 2013 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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You can target, I had a little issue because, for some bizarre reason, my legacy character had a filter for other players turned on.
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#14 Sep 07 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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I do not like the muddy textures. My character is super cute in the benchmark char creator thing on my PC, but I almost never get to see how she looks unless its up close. Otherwise, muddy.
hanibalz wrote:
Well if what im hearing about ps3 is true, can't even target? that would make this game unplayable so i will just assume if i get a ps4 that SE will give me a free copy of this game.

Like the above poster said, you can target.

It takes a bit of getting used to at first. DPAD: ◄ ►; ← I used those to cycle through targets(players and targets). For mobs, it takes me a bit of preparing. Can do two things, use the DPAD or wait for mob to reach the tank, and run up to mob and press X to target it. I may need some correcting there, I don't remember how to go about it too well right now. If there's a better way to target on the PS3, I sure would like to know.

Accidentally targetting carby/any pet has been a long standing problem I've had even in FFXI haha.
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#15 Sep 07 2013 at 7:09 PM Rating: Default
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TirithRR wrote:


You're kidding yourself if you think once the "cloud" becomes active that it will be a console exclusive thing, and that the shift to tablets and small PCs won't affect Consoles just as much as it would high end PCs. You think the PC gaming rigs as we know it are dying? The console as you know it is dying. Why spend money on something that can only play games, cannot be upgraded, and has less and less backward compatibility as they keep changing the architecture?


It's not going to be a console exclusive thing, however the cloud will favor consoles and other low-powered end devices. Why? Simply because a PC you own will be an input device, same as any console. It will make no sense to spend all that money on gaming rigs when all the heavy lifting is down though the cloud. This means cheaper devices benefit more by cloud technology. The console as we know it dying, the future of consoles is an input end device only. Consoles do far more than play games as do the tablets. You need to think of cloud gaming in the same way you think of Netflix streaming. Any device (console, PC, tablet, phone) can easily use this service. It doesn't matter if one device costs 4,000 or 100. That's why gaming rigs are dead. A console is basically a box unit that does basic services on the TV and it's cheap. Imagine a cable box console that does all the entertainment perks, but for a fraction of the cost. Sony released WebTv many years ago which was basically a box that surfed the internet. I can see the PS5 doing the same thing with more entertainment features all in the cloud. The architecture is moot because the box won't have the components they do now.
#16 Sep 08 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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The PS4 should, in theory, run the game at 60 FPS on high settings.

Edited, Sep 9th 2013 12:27am by LucasNox
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#17 Sep 08 2013 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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am I the only person with a cheapish computer running max settings? I have a stock Dell PC w/ the 400 series version of this card:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4501128&CatId=7387

I have seen no issues with display at all so far...

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#18 Sep 08 2013 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
TirithRR wrote:


You're kidding yourself if you think once the "cloud" becomes active that it will be a console exclusive thing, and that the shift to tablets and small PCs won't affect Consoles just as much as it would high end PCs. You think the PC gaming rigs as we know it are dying? The console as you know it is dying. Why spend money on something that can only play games, cannot be upgraded, and has less and less backward compatibility as they keep changing the architecture?


It's not going to be a console exclusive thing, however the cloud will favor consoles and other low-powered end devices. Why? Simply because a PC you own will be an input device, same as any console. It will make no sense to spend all that money on gaming rigs when all the heavy lifting is down though the cloud. This means cheaper devices benefit more by cloud technology. The console as we know it dying, the future of consoles is an input end device only. Consoles do far more than play games as do the tablets. You need to think of cloud gaming in the same way you think of Netflix streaming. Any device (console, PC, tablet, phone) can easily use this service. It doesn't matter if one device costs 4,000 or 100. That's why gaming rigs are dead. A console is basically a box unit that does basic services on the TV and it's cheap. Imagine a cable box console that does all the entertainment perks, but for a fraction of the cost. Sony released WebTv many years ago which was basically a box that surfed the internet. I can see the PS5 doing the same thing with more entertainment features all in the cloud. The architecture is moot because the box won't have the components they do now.



I think on paper that sounds great, and WAAAAAAAY into the future ( 10 -15+ years or so) that's probably true. However, speaking form experience trying to program against cloud based tech, the real time feedback loop you need to get distributed graphic rendering, GPS within the world and player interaction, you have to have <10ms for all that. Anything more and you break the illusion. Think about tablet delays between the touchscreen and the interaction, why it doesn't feel like you're really drawing. It would be magnified 10x at a minimum if we did this on current network tech.

On the flip side though, I do think that high end PC's are on the way out, just because we're nearing a point where photo realistic 3d graphics are getting cheap to produce. I give that another 5 years and we'll probably be sub-$300 ( see, next gen after PS4 / Xbox one) for real time rendering of avatar quality and better.


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#19 Sep 08 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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jcavaliere wrote:
On the flip side though, I do think that high end PC's are on the way out, just because we're nearing a point where photo realistic 3d graphics are getting cheap to produce. I give that another 5 years and we'll probably be sub-$300 ( see, next gen after PS4 / Xbox one) for real time rendering of avatar quality and better.

You've got crappy eyes if you think Avatar looked 'real', and even crappier understanding of the computation involved, just beyond drawing polygons and normal maps, to make things act natural as much as look natural. I guarantee somebody said this same thing twelve years ago about Spirits Within...

Edited, Sep 8th 2013 10:33am by Raelix
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#20 Sep 08 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
jcavaliere wrote:
On the flip side though, I do think that high end PC's are on the way out, just because we're nearing a point where photo realistic 3d graphics are getting cheap to produce. I give that another 5 years and we'll probably be sub-$300 ( see, next gen after PS4 / Xbox one) for real time rendering of avatar quality and better.

You've got crappy eyes if you think Avatar looked 'real', and even crappier understanding of the computation involved, just beyond drawing polygons and normal maps, to make things act natural as much as look natural. I guarantee somebody said this same thing twelve years ago about Spirits Within...

Edited, Sep 8th 2013 10:33am by Raelix



To get real time this quality:
http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/avatar_high_resolution-wide.jpg
yah I think it's 5 years out.

My crappy understanding is that I've spent time writing 3d rendering engines, and yes I agree that it's more than poly count. We're really close to uncanny valley territory right now in games.

see the unreal 4 engine:
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17p56oixbawnujpg/original.jpg

To me that looks one more rev away from getting real time photo quality. I don't think the current tech will get us there, but maybe I'm wrong. On the flip side though, You can run the U3 engine on a mobile platform right now for $300. So again - yes I think it's 5 years out, especially when you start talking about Moore's law and general technology curve adjustments. See this article on Intel's shift away from high end rigs:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-03/intel-ceo-designate-krzanich-plans-faster-shift-to-mobile-chips.html

just stuff to chew on...


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#21 Sep 08 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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....I don't even know what Cancer the crab looks like, and I've been in that FATE 3 times. =(

I really want a ps4 when they drop now, just to play this game. I don't want a PC. I'm pretty stupid, and PC tech numbers bore me instantly, and confuse me to no end. =)
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#22 Sep 08 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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jcavaliere wrote:
Stuff

I think you have a basis, but for the wrong reasons.

You assume that there is some 'limit' to how real you can make something look in CGI, whereas I pointed out somebody probably said that five years ago, and five years before that, and five years before that...

There are two factors beyond simple graphical fidelity, your angle, that provide need for more and more computing power: Physics and Resolution.

To be honest, games have barely scratched the surface of simulating a physical environment. Pre-broken walls and crap in stuff like Battlefield 4 is equivalent to prebaked AO versus true AO. How far off is breaking things, things meaning all things, to a minimal (read: visible within the confines of gameplay) scale? Assets will need internally mapped materials as much as they already have externally, and the depth of possible detail is, naturally, upped by a factor of a third dimension tangental to the surface. The depth of processing plausible for properly simulating, for instance, a tank round penetrating a mixed wood and brick building is rather unfathomable by today's standards. Your assertion is hilariously shortsighted in this aspect.

Second, take any game of the current generation, and run it at 4k resolution. ****, crank it up to a retinal grade PPD resolution for an extreme screen size or, a step further, something like the Oculus Rift with such PPD. You're facing an exponential increase in processing to approach the latter examples.

This thus falls back to a car analogy: People think car engines are getting more powerful, when in fact car engines are actually getting more efficient. It just so happens that when you're more efficient with a resource, you end up producing more power when consuming the same amount of said resource. If you tune your car's engine to make more power, you're actually making it more efficient for each revolution it makes moreso than just cramming more air and fuel in. You could certainly have the performance of today's enthusiast-class PC in 1999, it just would have been the size of an office building and been sucking down megawatts of power.

tl;dr You're rather naive for a 3D engine developer if you think games are just graphics and the uncanny valley is the last frontier.

Where you might have a point, again for the wrong reason, is a matter of art pipeline. There's only so much art that could plausibly be produced for a game, so it becomes a money factor in producing extreme visual fidelity.

At the same time, stuff like normal maps, subsurface scattering, and hypotheticals like intelligent materials that map themselves to a shape are functions that derive a proxy of art effort from processing power, ergo you can just have raw processing power determine what an object looks like rather than having an artist design it manually. We already sort of started on this with 3D rendering in the first place: We no longer draw every angle of a subject (sprites), but instead tell the CPU/GPU it's shape and let it draw it from a camera's perspective. Exactly the same concept in that you can always spend processing power to, circling back to an earlier point, simulate the appearance of an object more precisely than even an artist can develop it.

Edited, Sep 8th 2013 12:18pm by Raelix
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#23 Sep 08 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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You're making a lot of assumptions about me that I care to not correct - I'll simple say that I don't disagree with anything you're saying and let you keep making assumptions about me. Thanks for playing :)

-J

Edited, Sep 8th 2013 3:56pm by jcavaliere
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#24 Sep 08 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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jcavaliere wrote:

I think on paper that sounds great, and WAAAAAAAY into the future ( 10 -15+ years or so) that's probably true. However, speaking form experience trying to program against cloud based tech, the real time feedback loop you need to get distributed graphic rendering, GPS within the world and player interaction, you have to have <10ms for all that. Anything more and you break the illusion. Think about tablet delays between the touchscreen and the interaction, why it doesn't feel like you're really drawing. It would be magnified 10x at a minimum if we did this on current network tech.

On the flip side though, I do think that high end PC's are on the way out, just because we're nearing a point where photo realistic 3d graphics are getting cheap to produce. I give that another 5 years and we'll probably be sub-$300 ( see, next gen after PS4 / Xbox one) for real time rendering of avatar quality and better.


I work on the networking side and the cons you list there are very relevant. I stated in a previous post that it's going to take at least 10 years to push cloud gaming into the mainstream. On a closed network, it's already possible despite the latency concerns. Once the bandwidth exceeds 500MBps. the quality is much better. A cell phone typically uses 10ms from the omni-directional antenna to the wired network. Latency is hardly noticeable and that same standard can easily be applied to a cloud network. Again, I agree that we need a few more years for the tech to be ready, but my overall point was factual correct as you pointed out in your reply.

The PS4 is able to take advantage of the cloud network to enhance games right now. They might only be graphical touches here and there, but it's completely possible to do more down the road. This technology benefits consoles and tablets more because the payout is so great for companies. I totally agree with your final point. Thanks for posting such a open-minded reply. It's rare and much appreciated to speak with a an actual professional on these forums.
#25 Sep 08 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:


I work on the networking side and the cons you list there are very relevant. I stated in a previous post that it's going to take at least 10 years to push cloud gaming into the mainstream. On a closed network, it's already possible despite the latency concerns. Once the bandwidth exceeds 500MBps. the quality is much better. A cell phone typically uses 10ms from the omni-directional antenna to the wired network. Latency is hardly noticeable and that same standard can easily be applied to a cloud network. Again, I agree that we need a few more years for the tech to be ready, but my overall point was factual correct as you pointed out in your reply.

The PS4 is able to take advantage of the cloud network to enhance games right now. They might only be graphical touches here and there, but it's completely possible to do more down the road. This technology benefits consoles and tablets more because the payout is so great for companies. I totally agree with your final point. Thanks for posting such a open-minded reply. It's rare and much appreciated to speak with a an actual professional on these forums.



Welcome :)

So this video I found last year really opened my eyes to how low latency has to be to get cloud rendering to "work"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4

Watching the vid you can see the difference in response times between 100ms, 10ms and 1ms. In order to play a game, I think we can get away with 10ms response, which would be 3ms send, 3ms process, 3ms receive. Well within the bounds of physical limitations, I just think we have a ways to go. Someone needs to create a predictive algorithm that can pre process multiple player inputs so that the direction you press can be pre rendered and pre streamed 20-30 frames in advance and then we can talk about getting bandwidth to handle all that next.

I do think we'll see some hybridization, more than cloud save states. More streaming of level designs, taking advantage of grid processing for real time procedurally generated worlds, etc. It's all very exciting, I'm working on a kinnect + surface concept right now that could be the beginning a wave of game play styles that are up coming. If I can get it working I'll post the POC, because the next step is to use collaboration w/ the oculus so that 2 people can play at the same time.

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#26 Sep 08 2013 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
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jcavaliere wrote:
I think we can get away with 10ms response, which would be 3ms send, 3ms process, 3ms receive.

You'd have to be within about 500 miles of your server to get 3ms one-way, not counting per-hop processing.

Naive indeed...
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Vlorsutes wrote:
There's always...not trolling him?

You're new here, aren't you?
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