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Need Vs. GreedFollow

#1 Sep 08 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I've had one or two decent parties through the duty finder with people passing on things they didnt have any need for, or just rolling greed when they didnt exactly want the item but would probably sell it if they got the chance.

But lately i keep running into people who just roll Need on every single piece they can roll Need on, regardless of it being incredibly inferior to what they're already having, or useless not just for their job but every other job you can imagine. Statless things with low defense as well.

You can argue that it's stuff no one probably wanted. But when the rest of the party socially rolls Greed on something like that, and one person systematically rolls Need on all the all-classes gear... That just really ****** me off.

What can be done about things like that?
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#2 Sep 08 2013 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Nothing. It's an honor system.

We can either hope people will be 'honorable' or try to make an agreeable decision with all players prior to moving through the instance.
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#3 Sep 08 2013 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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It's a honour system implemented in what's effectively an anonymous, online setting. So you can imagine how well it works out.
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#4 Sep 08 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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If an item can be converted, you bet your *** I'm rolling Need on it.
#5 Sep 08 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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in a pug I see no reason to not need on something when it gives you the option...though I pass on lots of stuff I can need for.

you don't know what other classes people have leveled, something that might be inferior might be useful on another class ect.

since its a pug, and its cross server, just expect everyone is out for themselves.

there are a lot of reasons to not use the duty finder, this is just one of those reasons.

yes it ****** me off when the tank rolls on something obviously designed for a dragoon (im a dragoon) when I know its a massive downgrade to what the tank is rolling, and the only reason he rolled need was because he could. Happens and to be expected in duty finder pugs.
#6 Sep 08 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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One of my favorite topics. If you're in a pug, anything goes. I don't go for everything, but unless you talk it out first don't expect people to lay off the greed button.
#7 Sep 08 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm running all the dungeons on CNJ on pretty much all my characters, because I'm comfortable with that role and I don't really feel like waiting 45 minutes in a queue for storyline dungeons.

You best your sweet *** I'm lotting Greed on it if one of my actual "real" classes can use it.
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#8 Sep 08 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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I remember seeing loot drama and people bailing on DF groups because they didn't get what they wanted during phase 3 beta. When things were getting wiped anyway...
#9 Sep 08 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
I remember seeing loot drama and people bailing on DF groups because they didn't get what they wanted during phase 3 beta. When things were getting wiped anyway...


It's the 'remote in the ***' era of mmo.

~sighs~ My innocence is gone forever.
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#10 Sep 08 2013 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've been lucky, but I like to think the luck was helped out by the fact that I was equally as fair as the rest of the players in the past 2 groups I was in.. I know what I want, and I know what I am. I'm a Student of Hamon Holyfist. All I want is PUG/MNK gear. You can have the rest. If any is inferior to my current gear, I will pass it.

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#11 Sep 08 2013 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Question to forums: Does the token thing I read about before get handed out here?

Nothing can be done on SE's side, it's designed that way, so no rules are being broken, it's functioning as intended.

Something can be done from your side, but first a few questions:

Do you enjoy the process of running instances or does the reward factor in or matter more than the process?

If only the ends matter or they matter more than the process, then there will always be an undercurrent of frustration. Even if you got every drop you wanted, every single run, that wouldn't make you happy because then you would run out of meaningful content to do and be bored or frustrated.

Why are you getting ****** off?

There are so many better reasons to get ****** off about than digital rewards.



Solution: You are frustrated by an honor system built from someone else's values. You are frustrated because people are not behaving how you perceive they should because it's fair. Build your own kingdom, build your own code of honor in that kingdom, and appoint your own knights who uphold your code of chivalry. Duty finder is an option, you can skip it through the use of guilds and friends.
#12 Sep 08 2013 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Question to forums: Does the token thing I read about before get handed out here?

Nothing can be done on SE's side, it's designed that way, so no rules are being broken, it's functioning as intended.

Something can be done from your side, but first a few questions:

Do you enjoy the process of running instances or does the reward factor in or matter more than the process?

If only the ends matter or they matter more than the process, then there will always be an undercurrent of frustration. Even if you got every drop you wanted, every single run, that wouldn't make you happy because then you would run out of meaningful content to do and be bored or frustrated.

Why are you getting ****** off?

There are so many better reasons to get ****** off about than digital rewards.




Solution: You are frustrated by an honor system built from someone else's values. You are frustrated because people are not behaving how you perceive they should because it's fair. Build your own kingdom, build your own code of honor in that kingdom, and appoint your own knights who uphold your code of chivalry. Duty finder is an option, you can skip it through the use of guilds and friends.


My problem is things like DF are meant to BUILD community. Hopping around from MMO to MMO with your "friends" is all fine and dandy but it's actually isolating 'community'. I have the foreboding impression that mine is an unpopular opinion but I stick to it. "Join a FC" is not an excuse to be selfish amongst strangers and peers.

This genre used to have a lot more tact.
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#13 Sep 08 2013 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
Get use the the Need rolling. Happened back in WoW until enough people complained about it and they changed the way you can roll on gear type. Your best bet is if you see something drop and you think "dang that would really be nice to have" you should roll Need. If you just want it to sell for chump gil (I won a Greed roll on a Lance in a Dungeon,while on my Lancer. It was not an upgrade, so thus the Greed roll, was suggested that I just sell it..and why not? Smart Idea, but is gear from Dungeons become bound? I still have the lance as it is unique...actually I don't even think I can NPC sell it :3) or maybe let it sit on the back burner until you level the class(es)/jobs it is for, hit greed.
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#14 Sep 08 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShindaUsagi wrote:

My problem is things like DF are meant to BUILD community. Hopping around from MMO to MMO with your "friends" is all fine and dandy but it's actually isolating 'community'. I have the foreboding impression that mine is an unpopular opinion but I stick to it. "Join a FC" is not an excuse to be selfish amongst strangers and peers.

This genre used to have a lot more tact.

Just being around people is meant to build community. There is no limit to how many friends you can have and there is no limit to how many deep connections we can have here. Only you can make it isolating. Maybe you have five friends who hop around with you or maybe you have 500 friends who hop with you or maybe 5,000 friends.

Shin, your impression is not unpopular. Most people want to form connections. We just let our emotions or beliefs stand in the way of creating connections. There is no excuse for being selfish amongst strangers, there is no reason not to be friendly with strangers unless it's a fear of death. I was just telling him that people are different and they won't always do things you like them to do. The only thing you can control is how you act or feel.
#15 Sep 08 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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The way I see it if you need it then say "you need it" I been in a few dungeons already and we announce of we need it or we ask in general of its needed for a job, if it is we pass but if not we greed.

Like someone else said it's the honor system but if you talk before hand and figure it out then things become easier but that's not to say you won't run into ******** who anyways press need cause they greedy *****.
#16 Sep 08 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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ShindaUsagi wrote:
My problem is things like DF are meant to BUILD community.


I don't see how that could be true. At present, there's no way to keep in touch with anyone you meet inside a DF mission aside from exchanging personal information (which I wouldn't recommend). The best I've done to work around this was to literally form a group with the people waiting outside a dungeon with me on my server and add them to my friend list. But once you roll the dice on anyone joining from any world to complete the mission, the goal is no longer community but personal achievement.

That said, considering you have to work together as a team to make progress, you should try to get along with everyone there as reasonably as you can. Every group is different, so being adaptable helps.
#17 Sep 08 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:
My problem is things like DF are meant to BUILD community.


I don't see how that could be true. At present, there's no way to keep in touch with anyone you meet inside a DF mission aside from exchanging personal information (which I wouldn't recommend). The best I've done to work around this was to literally form a group with the people waiting outside a dungeon with me on my server and add them to my friend list. But once you roll the dice on anyone joining from any world to complete the mission, the goal is no longer community but personal achievement.

That said, considering you have to work together as a team to make progress, you should try to get along with everyone there as reasonably as you can. Every group is different, so being adaptable helps.


Yes, you got me. DF pulls from all servers. Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. We have no personal responsibility to whomever we get allotted with because chances are we'll never see them again. AWESOME!!!

It's just... respect. IDK. I'm in the down vote zone and it's always hard to try to make people understand to respect a situation when they don't expect respect in return. I get it.

But I completely agree with your last sentence if not for the same reasons.

Please don't make me quote Micheal Jackson. I hate Micheal Jackson.
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#18 Sep 08 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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I really thought for awhile, that if everyone in the party passed on an item, that the item would get put in to one of the pt members inventory without the bound to you restriction that you get when you need or greed it. That is not the case though, as the item gets destroyed if everybody passes. With this knowledge at hand, I pretty much greed everything that I cannot need on. The only times I don't need on items that I can, is when I already have that item in my inventory (in which case the game will force you to pass), or when I am in a lower level dungeon and the gear drops are virtually meaningless to me. I rarely ever click pass.

I ran Brayflox a lot within the last week or so, and one pug I was in told me DRG/LNC armor in the dungeon would not allow him to click need on it, but I could. The more I ran it, I noticed another set that I couldn't need on that seemed like it would be geared for him, and not the aforementioned gear set that he claimed should be for him. I believe that maybe people are misinformed about what roles they play, and what gear they are looking for when going into a dungeon. It would be nice if there was a menu in-game for each dungeon, and the possible loot that would drop that you can need on for any given class. Like to say, if I que for Sashtasha as a CNJ, a list would come up before hand stating which gear set is for you, and which bosses are going to drop it.

I know there are quite a few websites in which to look up information like this, but I have this feeling that most of the people playing this game might be doing so blindly. Would be nice for people to have the info right there in front of them, without having to look up third party guides. I think it would cure a lot of the confusion up in terms of people not knowing what gear is for them, and what is not.

Edited, Sep 8th 2013 6:31pm by supermegazeke
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#19 Sep 08 2013 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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I only roll need on things that are better than what I have. Otherwise, I roll greed.
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#20 Sep 08 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShindaUsagi wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Question to forums: Does the token thing I read about before get handed out here?

Nothing can be done on SE's side, it's designed that way, so no rules are being broken, it's functioning as intended.

Something can be done from your side, but first a few questions:

Do you enjoy the process of running instances or does the reward factor in or matter more than the process?

If only the ends matter or they matter more than the process, then there will always be an undercurrent of frustration. Even if you got every drop you wanted, every single run, that wouldn't make you happy because then you would run out of meaningful content to do and be bored or frustrated.

Why are you getting ****** off?

There are so many better reasons to get ****** off about than digital rewards.


Solution: You are frustrated by an honor system built from someone else's values. You are frustrated because people are not behaving how you perceive they should because it's fair. Build your own kingdom, build your own code of honor in that kingdom, and appoint your own knights who uphold your code of chivalry. Duty finder is an option, you can skip it through the use of guilds and friends.


My problem is things like DF are meant to BUILD community. Hopping around from MMO to MMO with your "friends" is all fine and dandy but it's actually isolating 'community'. I have the foreboding impression that mine is an unpopular opinion but I stick to it. "Join a FC" is not an excuse to be selfish amongst strangers and peers.

This genre used to have a lot more tact.



Dungeon finders might be a great way to create a community, and they do work. However cross server dungeon finders to the exact opposite.

Problem is no one wants to wait for a dungeon, and issues arise when new players join late...if you don't cross server it. However it completely wrecks the community bonding that may occur because chances are youll never see those people again.

Before I played a cross server dungeon finder game, that had a dungeon finder, it was great. You met people, developed relationships either positive or negative based on their actions and performance in the dungeon. People earned reputations, good or bad. Eventually you knew who was good, and you kept track of those people until you didn't need the dungeon finder you just PMed all the good players you met in the finder.

But because of above mentioned issues with dungeon finders...cross server finder became the norm. All the community interaction was with random people on other severs...**** I don't even know who is or isn't on my server using the duty finder. Its like, wow we just had an awesome run you guys are great...*poof* gone forever...which is good when things go awful...I guess.
#21 Sep 08 2013 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Strangerous wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Question to forums: Does the token thing I read about before get handed out here?

Nothing can be done on SE's side, it's designed that way, so no rules are being broken, it's functioning as intended.

Something can be done from your side, but first a few questions:

Do you enjoy the process of running instances or does the reward factor in or matter more than the process?

If only the ends matter or they matter more than the process, then there will always be an undercurrent of frustration. Even if you got every drop you wanted, every single run, that wouldn't make you happy because then you would run out of meaningful content to do and be bored or frustrated.

Why are you getting ****** off?

There are so many better reasons to get ****** off about than digital rewards.


Solution: You are frustrated by an honor system built from someone else's values. You are frustrated because people are not behaving how you perceive they should because it's fair. Build your own kingdom, build your own code of honor in that kingdom, and appoint your own knights who uphold your code of chivalry. Duty finder is an option, you can skip it through the use of guilds and friends.


My problem is things like DF are meant to BUILD community. Hopping around from MMO to MMO with your "friends" is all fine and dandy but it's actually isolating 'community'. I have the foreboding impression that mine is an unpopular opinion but I stick to it. "Join a FC" is not an excuse to be selfish amongst strangers and peers.

This genre used to have a lot more tact.



Dungeon finders might be a great way to create a community, and they do work. However cross server dungeon finders to the exact opposite.

Problem is no one wants to wait for a dungeon, and issues arise when new players join late...if you don't cross server it. However it completely wrecks the community bonding that may occur because chances are youll never see those people again.

Before I played a cross server dungeon finder game, that had a dungeon finder, it was great. You met people, developed relationships either positive or negative based on their actions and performance in the dungeon. People earned reputations, good or bad. Eventually you knew who was good, and you kept track of those people until you didn't need the dungeon finder you just PMed all the good players you met in the finder.

But because of above mentioned issues with dungeon finders...cross server finder became the norm. All the community interaction was with random people on other severs...**** I don't even know who is or isn't on my server using the duty finder. Its like, wow we just had an awesome run you guys are great...*poof* gone forever...which is good when things go awful...I guess.


Sweetie...

I know I'm fighting a losing argument. I'm living inside a romance of what was compared to what is. I completely expect to lose this argument. All I ask is no one hold it against me because I'm still holding on a little too long.


Edited, Sep 8th 2013 8:32pm by ShindaUsagi
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#22 Sep 08 2013 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShindaUsagi wrote:
My problem is things like DF are meant to BUILD community. Hopping around from MMO to MMO with your "friends" is all fine and dandy but it's actually isolating 'community'. I have the foreboding impression that mine is an unpopular opinion but I stick to it. "Join a FC" is not an excuse to be selfish amongst strangers and peers.

This genre used to have a lot more tact.


I agree with your sentiment quite strongly, but I don't think that cross-server auto-group systems are designed to build community -- quite the opposite -- they're designed explicitly to circumvent it. I've been saying it since this duty finder was announced: systems like this are designed for efficiency and they sacrifice all meaningful, long-term interaction with others to do so. One can suddenly party with strangers from another realm, perform as badly as one pleases, take everything for oneself, clear the dungeon, and repeat the process instantly. Without any need for it, a community ceases to exist.

Ironically, most everyone touted this duty finding system as an end to long wait times, citing their experiences with FFXI as proof of the failure of a party-based system with one's own server population. Well, now the DF has come and DDs still face long wait times, on one hand, but also rude, apathetic players on the other. You're lucky to receive so much as an emote from another person in these situations.

Ultimately you can't have both a community and a system of anonymous cross-server grouping. Such a system could have worked for PvP, but it pulls the guts from PvE content. The closest thing to community interaction FFXIV will ever have will come in the form of casual chat with one's company or linkshell, in the form of brief mercantile trades between a gatherer and a crafter.
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#23 Sep 08 2013 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Well, now the DF has come and DDs still face long wait times


I mean.... I spent 16 hours once LFG on DRK in FFXI. The most I've spent in queue in the DF was 80 minutes. Definitely a long time but... it's all relative.

Quote:
Ultimately you can't have both a community and a system of anonymous cross-server grouping.


I disagree.

You aren't going to get much of a community doing dungeons, for sure that's true.

The community comes in with the organized content. The raids, the pvp, the stuff that requires people to say more than two words to each other and is better done in premade groups. That's where you get your community.
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#24 Sep 08 2013 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
The community comes in with the organized content. The raids, the pvp, the stuff that requires people to say more than two words to each other and is better done in premade groups. That's where you get your community.


Until now I didn't think there was any PvP content whatsoever, so I can't speak to that. But with regard to the raids you mentioned: you're saying there's content that can't be queued up in a cross-server auto-group? If so, then that's very good news to me, and I agree that such a place is an avenue for some kind of community and camaraderie to form.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#25Mopdaddy, Posted: Sep 08 2013 at 11:15 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Please for the love of everything holy do not cry about gear in games. It only makes you look bad.
#26 Sep 08 2013 at 11:16 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
The community comes in with the organized content. The raids, the pvp, the stuff that requires people to say more than two words to each other and is better done in premade groups. That's where you get your community.


Until now I didn't think there was any PvP content whatsoever, so I can't speak to that. But with regard to the raids you mentioned: you're saying there's content that can't be queued up in a cross-server auto-group? If so, then that's very good news to me, and I agree that such a place is an avenue for some kind of community and camaraderie to form.

It is Impossible to do cross server raids unless you dumb them down to absolute garbage.
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