Forum Settings
       
1 2 3 Next »
Reply To Thread

BUYING GOLD!Follow

#102 Sep 09 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
KingoGoodbomber wrote:
That's nice. So what? A level 50 combat job shouldn't have to go mine ore or cut down trees of be literally FORCED to level a craft to 50 simply to progress in the first tier of endgame content using combat jobs. And you won't even be leveling the craft with an end point of a nice endgame starting set but just the ability to afford your own repairs. Grats, you leveled a class to 50 for the sole purpose of doing a daily in order to maybe break even. Whoppity freaking do do. How is that fun?


Because you can sell dungeon drop (Wander Palace) or Material bought from Tomestone back to crafter if you don't want to make gil the other way? 175 Tomestone equivalent drop go for 15k gil, that's 2.2 runs of AK. If you are so hard core dungeon raider as you made yourself to be, that's hardly 33 mins total. Or are you not? WP drop vary, but it can go somewhere from 5k-15k gil.

The intention was that crafter put gil into the economy (lvl40-50 stuff can be sold back to NPC for 100-300 gil per item. If I'm lazy and Quick Synth all the material -> parts -> items in an hour I could have make 300 items easily. I would need to spend 8400 gil on DM 5 to repair in order to earn back 30,000 gil - 90,000 gil newly generated into the economy), others support crafter putting gil in and get back the gil crafter generated. There is a reason for player economy. There is a reason why there are sandbox games. Not all games are going to give you everything you want without interacting with other players.

Edited, Sep 9th 2013 9:07pm by Khornette
____________________________




#103 Sep 09 2013 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
*
109 posts
Barter doesn't add gil it merely shifts gil around while SE takes its 5% cut on both ends. But you're right, there is no problem with gil. Raids haven't had to be called already because groups ran out of repair money and stuff, they're just scrubs who didn't sell their stuff to crafters the way they should have. Everything is fine because, well because you say so, whoever you are.

Thanks for clearing that up. The longest and most viewed thread on the SE forum has no merit because you say it doesn't. And why are you being so selfish, since there isn't a problem and you have all the answers, why don't you chime in on that 66 page thread with your advice and see what they have to say?
#104 Sep 09 2013 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
So apparently spending 33 mins of raid to earn enough repair cost for 360 mins of raid (5k repair per 8 runs, 15k = 24 runs in total) just off Philosophy Tomestone alone, never mind the Myth Tomestone you get (which is what you actually want to get) is very hard for hardcore dungeon raiders like yourself. Okay. And here I thought you guys run dungeon raid 24/7, my bad.
____________________________




#105 Sep 09 2013 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Techsupport wrote:
Quote:
They're hacking accounts of people who buy gil from them.

It's like a terrible Ponzi scheme. They started out with dozens of hacked accounts from people who didn't use a token and use the same username and password for each account. They lure in stupid people who go to buy gold, not realizing the websites are malware infested honeypots. Along with your cash for gil, they load trojans and keyloggers and probably sell your CC number out on the black market.


Back that up please............where did you get that information from? Or did you just pull that out of your ***?

That would just be a horrible business model right? If that really was happening then wouldn't they not get any repeat business? Based on your thoughts then that means the only profitability of these companies is a one time user? So that is what has been keeping them in business for all these years?

And if that is the case then why are the only people who spammed me in FFXI and the people who have started to spam me in FFXIV have goofy names like "FJHD KJAJHJF" and "UNWEI KAJFH" then?


Out of the two dozen gil seller accounts I've blacklisted in the last two weeks, only one had a keyboard smash name, and one other was simply called "Bro Sale." (Bet that dude thought he was clever.) The volume of shouts has increased greatly since character creation was unlocked across most servers, but I still had to blist quite a few while the servers were completely locked. Even SE had warned folks that there are a lot of compromised accounts out there right now.

A good friend of mine was hacked in FFXI in the middle of tanking an HNM. (Gulool Ja Ja.) He hadn't bought gil, but he had visited a third party program website that turned out to have been compromised by RMT on the back end. Took him about six weeks to get his account back. The RMT stripped his account of nearly twenty million gil and as much in items such as ancient currency. You can bet that was promptly resold.

You're right, it's a terrible business model. RMT is a terrible business in general. Gold farmers in China have worse working conditions than the poor laborers at Foxconn, often working 12 hour shifts and living in dorms that have ten guys sleeping on couches or cots. The "farmers" left their families in rural China in the hopes of making their fortune in the city, and while playing video games for 12 hours a day sounds like a great thing, making the equivalent of fifty cents an hour to do it does not.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#106 Sep 09 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
Trust me, making $6 a day with live-in cost covered is a whole lot better compared to many other alternatives.
____________________________




#107 Sep 09 2013 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
334 posts
How quickly we forget the lessons we learned last week.

So on our last episode of FFXIV:ARR drama, people were losing their collective **** over 1017. Even though the game had literally just launched days before and SE was very clear about how and when they were going to fix the issue, it was unacceptable. The sky was falling. We had 436743976983476983 threads about the topic where people put on the full display of emotional retardation over a video game.

This week? Sky is falling again. Gilsellers, cheaters, not enough gil to raid, chat logs clogged with spam etc. SE needs to fix these problems RIGHT NOW or the game is finished I tell you!! And we're 100 posts in to a thread where we're discussing the purchase of video game currency with the same fervor usually reserved for human rights issues, religion, or politics.

Take a step back for 15 seconds and think about this. Yoshi and his team just rescued a game (and indeed a whole franchise) from the worst public relations disaster in the history of MMO's. Despite practically the entire gaming community swearing off the game (and SE for that matter) just a few short years ago, they currently have BY FAR the hottest product on the market.

They had a shaky launch due to server instability and everyone threatened to boycott again. Mutiny was in the air! Yoshi and his team calmly addressed the matter and fixed it exactly how and when they said they would fix it. And the community was generally pretty satisfied with how things were handled.

Now, the next big crisis is the gilseller threat. Newsflash people: THE GAME JUST LAUNCHED. They can't fix every problem simultaneously in a single weekend.

Two simple facts:
1) There will always be gilsellers because there will always be people willing to buy gil. It's one of the most basic economic principles in existence. If there is demand, there will be supply.
2) As was previously mentioned, the presence of gilsellers in the virtual economy has yet to destroy said MMO economy. Does it inflate the economy? Sure. Will it destroy the economy? Not at all. This game was designed in such a way as to avoid the economic issues that we saw in FFXI (which is still chugging along regardless as proof to point #2).

My prediction here is that the selling of gil actually has a minimal impact on the XIV economy as a whole due to the fact that casual gameplay doesn't require all that much gil. Many people cruise along through the content just fine without even interacting with the market boards. Also, before you start with the "gil needed to repair gear in order to spam endgame dungeons repeatedly" etc etc, realize THAT IS NOT CASUAL GAMEPLAY. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not casual. The majority of the game's population just isn't that far along yet.

The game just launched. Literally. It's WEEKS old. Why don't you guys settle down, stop with the "sky is falling" melodrama and recognize that the game is in capable hands. They will successfully address these issues in the coming weeks just like they have successfully addressed every issue that's come up since Yoshi rescued this game from the ******* a few years back. They will address this too. They've already acknowledged it. The angst isn't necessary.
____________________________
BlueLand wrote:
You can always take a screen shot of the 1017 error and set it to your desktop background, its like playing FFXIV from work
#108 Sep 10 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
*
197 posts
ChaChaJaJa wrote:
The game just launched. Literally. It's WEEKS old. Why don't you guys settle down, stop with the "sky is falling" melodrama and recognize that the game is in capable hands. They will successfully address these issues in the coming weeks just like they have successfully addressed every issue that's come up since Yoshi rescued this game from the sh*tter a few years back. They will address this too. They've already acknowledged it. The angst isn't necessary.



This right here, every time something goes wrong people are like,

KingoGoodbomber wrote:
then people aren't going to be extending their sub after their trial is up.


I for one love this game, and there is no doubt in my mind that everything will get fixed in time, In phase 4 when people were getting locked out of the game they were saying the same ****, OMGZ SE SUKS NO ONE WILL buYS THIS GARBAGE< FIX PLEASE AND GIVE US EXTRA FREE GAME TIMES LOLZ LAZERS!!111!1!! Like people were literally saying this game would flop in the first month and the servers would be shut down.

I would be willing to bet all those kids are still playing.

I feel like people are to quick to compare new games to WoW and its like, WoW was far from being perfect when it came out, and with the amount of **** that goes into an MMO, I don't know how you can't expect them to miss a few things. And, if you've played any MMO's I don't know what makes everyone think that they wont fix things.
____________________________
Character Name: Jeskradha Duskmantle
Free Company - The Kraken Club <ZAM>
Server: Ultros
#109 Sep 10 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
239 posts
Catwho wrote:
Techsupport wrote:
Quote:
They're hacking accounts of people who buy gil from them.

It's like a terrible Ponzi scheme. They started out with dozens of hacked accounts from people who didn't use a token and use the same username and password for each account. They lure in stupid people who go to buy gold, not realizing the websites are malware infested honeypots. Along with your cash for gil, they load trojans and keyloggers and probably sell your CC number out on the black market.


Back that up please............where did you get that information from? Or did you just pull that out of your ***?

That would just be a horrible business model right? If that really was happening then wouldn't they not get any repeat business? Based on your thoughts then that means the only profitability of these companies is a one time user? So that is what has been keeping them in business for all these years?

And if that is the case then why are the only people who spammed me in FFXI and the people who have started to spam me in FFXIV have goofy names like "FJHD KJAJHJF" and "UNWEI KAJFH" then?


Out of the two dozen gil seller accounts I've blacklisted in the last two weeks, only one had a keyboard smash name, and one other was simply called "Bro Sale." (Bet that dude thought he was clever.) The volume of shouts has increased greatly since character creation was unlocked across most servers, but I still had to blist quite a few while the servers were completely locked. Even SE had warned folks that there are a lot of compromised accounts out there right now.

A good friend of mine was hacked in FFXI in the middle of tanking an HNM. (Gulool Ja Ja.) He hadn't bought gil, but he had visited a third party program website that turned out to have been compromised by RMT on the back end. Took him about six weeks to get his account back. The RMT stripped his account of nearly twenty million gil and as much in items such as ancient currency. You can bet that was promptly resold.

You're right, it's a terrible business model. RMT is a terrible business in general. Gold farmers in China have worse working conditions than the poor laborers at Foxconn, often working 12 hour shifts and living in dorms that have ten guys sleeping on couches or cots. The "farmers" left their families in rural China in the hopes of making their fortune in the city, and while playing video games for 12 hours a day sounds like a great thing, making the equivalent of fifty cents an hour to do it does not.


So I guess I am just out of the norm then, I have 9 total blacklisted names for spamming, all of which and the keyboard smashers.......
____________________________
Quote:
WAR has access to enough enmity gear and enough hate-inducing JA to aggro baby jesus.


Quote:
When I'm trying to decide what spell to cast I look at the mobs' weaknesses, check the day, check the weather and then calmly cast Thunder IV.
#110 Sep 10 2013 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Could be one of those "your mileage may vary" things.

We can all agree the shouters are cockroaches and need to be exterminated at least, right?

Edited, Sep 10th 2013 11:06am by Catwho
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#111 Sep 10 2013 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
*
109 posts
Hey gee look they are lowering dark matter and repair costs Wednesday what an amazing coincidence.

Google Translate:
Quote:

For measures to participate in the content feel free
Hi there
We are aware that there may not currently be able to participate in content willingly in the development team.
I will let you know in a range that can tell the future measures for that.

Significant reduction in the price of dark matter and repair costs
while focusing on high-level band, reduce significantly the price of dark matter and repair costs in general.

Add an item level to participation conditions, such as high-level dungeon
that when you participate in such蛮神war and instance dungeon of high level for, it has the equipment that has the item level or above will be added as a condition .
Implement a mechanism As a result, display the average value of the item level of equipment in the character window.

Adding a party recruitment window
to introduce a mechanism, such as bulletin board that you can recruit party world that there is a limited myself. You can register roll you want to recruit and dungeon title you want, such as the level at the time of recruitment.
(For detailed specifications, please wait for the public at a later date)

After maintenance (Thursday), is scheduled to be implemented on the patch 2.1 and later for 2 and 3 September 12 for one.
#112 Sep 10 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
****
5,745 posts
KingoGoodbomber wrote:
Hey gee look they are lowering dark matter and repair costs Wednesday what an amazing coincidence.

I put this in Google translate, and I got "I told you so".
____________________________
Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
#113 Sep 10 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
239 posts
Catwho wrote:
Could be one of those "your mileage may vary" things.

We can all agree the shouters are cockroaches and need to be exterminated at least, right?

Edited, Sep 10th 2013 11:06am by Catwho


I just blacklist them and move on, got it down to where it takes no time at all. It would be nice if they had it like SWTOR does, does left click on the name and hit blacklist. Keeps things nice and simple. Gil sellers and RMT's will always be an issue to some degree, just give us the tools to weed them out of our chat logs simple and fast then you are good to go.

Let the people who are foolish enough to use their services do so and chance SE banning their account or even worse, have someone highjack their account.
____________________________
Quote:
WAR has access to enough enmity gear and enough hate-inducing JA to aggro baby jesus.


Quote:
When I'm trying to decide what spell to cast I look at the mobs' weaknesses, check the day, check the weather and then calmly cast Thunder IV.
#114 Sep 10 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
**
660 posts
Uchida wrote:
Or rather not to waste time, no harm spending a few dollars to buy gils. USD$7/10000gils now. It's a reasonable rate. I do my transactions from an Internet cafe, I use Paypal to complete the transaction, and when the RMT company needs to give me a call, I give them my prepaid mobile SIM card number. Upon delivery, I have a secondary account for collection. There's no way for RMT to get near me. I know such antics from these companies and counter measures are in place.


Whoa you have internet cafes still? Whats it like being trapped in the early 90s? The only internet cafes we have here are online gambling halls in disguise.

Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through to purchase virtual currency you can only use on virtual goods in a video game. It sounds like you'd be selling drugs or something with all those "countermeasures".
____________________________


#115 Sep 10 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,120 posts
reptiletim wrote:
Whats it like being trapped in the early 90s?

Doesn't sound so horrible. I had fun in the 90s.
#116ClydesShadow, Posted: Sep 10 2013 at 12:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I wish someone would just smack the **** out of you in real life.
#117 Sep 10 2013 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
**
660 posts
I guess I just dont take my video games so seriously as to feel like I have to spend more real money than I have to on it. The day I feel like I have to purchase fake money with real money just to enjoy the game is the day I put it down and move on to something else.
____________________________


#118 Sep 10 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
******
48,733 posts
ClydesShadow wrote:
I wish someone would just smack the sh*t out of you in real life.
And?
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#120 Sep 10 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
*
110 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
I personally don't care what people do with their money. Neither playing for 120 hours straight or paying $50 to obtain that coveted Sword+1 is that impressive in my books.


That's exactly how I saw it now...
____________________________
Game: FFXI
Character: Karumii (Mithra)
Server: Fenrir
Jobs: 75WHM, 75BLM, 75BLU, 75NIN
Status: Retired (2009)
#121 Sep 11 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
*
153 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
I wish someone would just smack the sh*t out of you in real life.
And?


Kick you when you're on the ground would probably be a good start.
#122 Sep 11 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,136 posts
ClydesShadow wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
I wish someone would just smack the sh*t out of you in real life.
And?


Kick you when you're on the ground would probably be a good start.


You wouldn't be over-reacting by a slight margin would you? Smiley: lol
#123 Sep 11 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
91 posts
reptiletim wrote:
I guess I just dont take my video games so seriously as to feel like I have to spend more real money than I have to on it. The day I feel like I have to purchase fake money with real money just to enjoy the game is the day I put it down and move on to something else.


I couldn't agree more sir!
#124 Sep 11 2013 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
******
48,733 posts
ClydesShadow wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
I wish someone would just smack the sh*t out of you in real life.
And?
Kick you when you're on the ground would probably be a good start.
And?
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#125 Sep 11 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Default
*
153 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
ClydesShadow wrote:
I wish someone would just smack the sh*t out of you in real life.
And?
Kick you when you're on the ground would probably be a good start.
And?


How about, buying you a filet at Flemming's which also happens to be having a special on surf and turf for 14.99 fresh Maine Lobster Tail with the purchase of your steak.
#126 Sep 11 2013 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
137 posts
Come on kids play nicely - Momma wants to nap!
____________________________
FFXI: Kiyaya :Siren:
99 WAR/RDM/BLM/BRD/PLD/NIN/DNC/BST/MNK/SAM

FFXIV: Kiya Sirenia : Siren:
DoM: 37 Arcanist, SMN and SCH 15CNJ 15THM
DoW: 13MRD 12PUG
DoH: 45WVR 45BSM 45GSM 44CUL 40ALC 40CRP 39LTW 39ARM
DoL: 50FSH 47MIN 47BTN
#127 Sep 11 2013 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
154 posts
Anthony11420 wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Anthony11420 wrote:
Clearly the original thread creator is frm WoW or something. Final Fantasy fans knows its Gil not Gold. Bringing their filth here. No wonder the **** game is bombarded with a hoard of RMTs.


Because...FFXI never had an RMT problem...

- Christmas, 2005


Of course it did...we all know better now. SE creating the Task force to deal with such gilseller and buyers. It was more strict because everyone knew they would either get banned or suspended. Now this is a new game with new players from differnet game companies with no knowledge I guess that gold/gil buying is wrong in FF world. Because its they think its ok in this game too. I believe thought this is just the begining of RMT it will get worse as more new lazy players fill the FF servers.


Your thought process is similar to that of a sexist, racist, or homophobe. "Rawr! Blame teh outsiders! They is different!"
I played FFXI for years, and I saw nothing of this RMT-free eutopia that you're referring to. Why were RMT in FFXI? Because...wait for it...people were buying gil there, creating the market for it.
To assume that it is all the fault of new players is asinine.
#128 Sep 11 2013 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,556 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
I'm not sure how you're going from "there aren't enough ways to make money at 50" to "buying gil is a-ok."

I'll grant you there's a problem making money at 50, especially with the math presented there. The game has practically no currency generation from vendor trash and presently no repeatable quests outside of leves (which are on a strict cooldown).

That probably deserves some fixing as it's an issue with the game's design.

That does not make cheating and account stealing ok.

Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of gil is going to come from stolen accounts and exploits. So by buying gil, you are supporting and financing those practices.

I'm not saying that making negative money just playing the game is acceptable, I'm saying that buying gil to solve that problem is not.


I haven't finished the entire thread (Edit: now I have!), but I will say that I don't think he's advocating for RMT or gil/gold/currency buying.

What he has said (so far) is that the current environment pushes more and more people in that direction. Honestly, I see exactly what he is saying. At level 50 and doing dungeons for a week, I've gone from 140k (when I hit 50 from all the quests) to around 115k. That's just within one week. I could see the trend just as he can.

I don't know about him, but I wouldn't buy currency no matter how desperate things got: I simply would not resub. This isn't very healthy for a game.

Thankfully, the development team seems to be quick to react to community concerns (though you wouldn't know it from the bots spamming in the three main cities) and are now reducing repair cost.

If the reduction in repair cost is dramatic and they implement adequate daily quests within the next month or so, I don't think the FF14 RMT business will be as lucrative as the bots would have you believe.

It's actually interesting to see. My FC mates (as well as myself, admittedly) have either vocalized in chat or said something like, "Wow...what am I going to do with this gil? There doesn't seem to be any use for it."

Oh how we were wrong. And it would have been nice to continue to think that. Still a possibility with this next maintenance. Yes, gil is just something extra that I can use to purchase items to enhance my character (food), buy vanity gear, or freely teleport around the world without a concern about my virtual wallet.

At the same time I thought, "I got really excited when I was doing KSNM and saw a venomous claw drop. Maybe it isn't so bad to have a steep curve like this."

Then, I asked myself again (making most of you think I'm crazy by this point), "But I actually enjoyed doing KSNM. I didn't really have to pay for repairs on my gear in FFXI...and even when I have played games that have had that (WoW, GW2 I think), it never was a really big pressing issue on my mind."

There is a really nice area that satisfies a majority of players, I think. It's somewhere a little steeper than WoW's market but cheaper than FFXI towards the end of ToAU.


Anyways, a trend in this thread I'm seeing is that anyone who brings up an argument tangential to RMT (but not about supporting RMT) is blasted for no reason. You should read some of the points: there is logic in them. If you would like RMT to disappear, then game design needs to improve to accommodate otherwise. In short, more of the account bound gear, more ways to earn easy gil to sustain yourself on food and repair bills at 50 without resorting to making new characters will equate to less RMT problems.

Edit: Ah, someone beat me to it:

svlyons wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
I'm not sure how you're going from "there aren't enough ways to make money at 50" to "buying gil is a-ok."
What is being said is that the game itself is creating a market for buying and selling gil.

The more I think about it, the less I like gear durability. If you wanted to play FFXI without needing much gil, there were ways you play it while spending little to no gil. You could simply run every where you went, and avoid paying for things like airship and ferry rides and chocobo rentals. But in FFXIV, you can't just avoid gear repairs. I suppose you could minimize what you have to repair by only wearing a weapon and nothing else. But that hardly seems like a good solution. Fancy gear is a big part of why people play RPGs. They shouldn't be discouraged from wearing gear because they're better off not having to repair it.


Edited, Sep 11th 2013 11:35pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#131 Feb 08 2014 at 4:02 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
2,045 posts
I find it hilarious that people can find gold buying an evil evil thing while using FFXIVAPP.

Both are just as illegal, both can get your account banned if found out. I guess the rules you break are either good or bad depending if it's something you partake in instead of whether it's viewed as against the tos or not.

"Necro post" What the heck, it's the first post in the list..

Edited, Feb 8th 2014 5:03am by preludes
____________________________
BANNED
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
1 2 3 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 58 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (58)