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I need help moving from Gamepad to Keyboard and Mouse...Follow

#1 Sep 09 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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So in FFXI I used a gamepad, enjoyed it. FFXIV I'm using a gamepad and I like it, but I'm quickly running out of buttons and targetting is not much fun. I don't like switching hotbar sets in the middle of battles either...

So does anyone have any advice on how to make the switch from Gamepad to keyboard and mouse? I'd love to see some of your HUDs that look nice with a kb+m set up.

I'm a DRG btw...don't know if that makes a difference.
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#2 Sep 09 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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The best advice is to rip the band-aid off as quickly as you can.

Just do it.

And understand that you're going to suck for a little while as you re-learn things you're currently doing by muscle memory. The best way to do this is to sit at a training dummy and just run through your buttons for like half an hour until you relearn how to do things.

There are numerous guides on the Internet about moving from clicking and keyboard turning to mouse movement and keybinding. While that isn't exactly what you're doing, it's close, and they're a good place to start for learning how to use keyboard and mouse controls effectively.
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#3 Sep 09 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
The best advice is to rip the band-aid off as quickly as you can.

Just do it.

And understand that you're going to suck for a little while as you re-learn things you're currently doing by muscle memory. The best way to do this is to sit at a training dummy and just run through your buttons for like half an hour until you relearn how to do things.

There are numerous guides on the Internet about moving from clicking and keyboard turning to mouse movement and keybinding. While that isn't exactly what you're doing, it's close, and they're a good place to start for learning how to use keyboard and mouse controls effectively.


Thanks! I forgot about the training dummies!

And I've played with KB+M in other games...but the gamepad is comfy, just not practical...
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#4 Sep 09 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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To be honest, I doubt your transition will leave you feeling much better. The benefit of the mouse certainly enables for quicker/precise selection (assuming your target isn't surrounded by other things), but my consistent gripe with WASD is you don't really get comfortable access to more than 5 abilities unless you like contorting your thumb toward ctrl/alt to double/triple your potential. So if I'm remembering right, the cross-hotbar gives you access to 16 abilities at what's probably far greater comfort. It's at this point where I'd say I prefer XI's style of keyboard only over WASD, but the game's pacing probably wouldn't support that, nevermind likely similar targeting and interface issues.

Pragmatically, it might be good to consider what you really need on your bar. I am keyboard/mouse and I have a bar for potions, ethers, antidotes, and so on... but to be honest, I never or very rarely use them. Being BLM at the moment, there are also some abilities I very rarely use like Sure Cast, Convert, or Apothe-whatever. Given the number of ice/fire spells, I also feel this job might better played from the controller. But eh... I get by.
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#5 Sep 09 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
To be honest, I doubt your transition will leave you feeling much better. The benefit of the mouse certainly enables for quicker/precise selection (assuming your target isn't surrounded by other things), but my consistent gripe with WASD is you don't really get comfortable access to more than 5 abilities unless you like contorting your thumb toward ctrl/alt to double/triple your potential. So if I'm remembering right, the cross-hotbar gives you access to 16 abilities at what's probably far greater comfort. It's at this point where I'd say I prefer XI's style of keyboard only over WASD, but the game's pacing probably wouldn't support that, nevermind likely similar targeting and interface issues.

Pragmatically, it might be good to consider what you really need on your bar. I am keyboard/mouse and I have a bar for potions, ethers, antidotes, and so on... but to be honest, I never or very rarely use them. Being BLM at the moment, there are also some abilities I very rarely use like Sure Cast, Convert, or Apothe-whatever. Given the number of ice/fire spells, I also feel this job might better played from the controller. But eh... I get by.


You can also re-bind WASD to ESDF which opens your left hand up for more keybinds. That's a little more involved since you have to also rebind a bunch of system shortcut keys to make room, but don't forget the non-numeric keys that can also be used for keybindings.

Personally, I use one of these things
Screenshot


This gives me access to 72 practical keybinds for abilities and other functions as well as a d-pad all on my left hand. But this is by no means required to perform well with a keyboard/mouse combo.
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#6 Sep 09 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Look into the Razer Naga or the Logitech G600.
#7 Sep 09 2013 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Seriha wrote:
To be honest, I doubt your transition will leave you feeling much better. The benefit of the mouse certainly enables for quicker/precise selection (assuming your target isn't surrounded by other things), but my consistent gripe with WASD is you don't really get comfortable access to more than 5 abilities unless you like contorting your thumb toward ctrl/alt to double/triple your potential. So if I'm remembering right, the cross-hotbar gives you access to 16 abilities at what's probably far greater comfort. It's at this point where I'd say I prefer XI's style of keyboard only over WASD, but the game's pacing probably wouldn't support that, nevermind likely similar targeting and interface issues.

Pragmatically, it might be good to consider what you really need on your bar. I am keyboard/mouse and I have a bar for potions, ethers, antidotes, and so on... but to be honest, I never or very rarely use them. Being BLM at the moment, there are also some abilities I very rarely use like Sure Cast, Convert, or Apothe-whatever. Given the number of ice/fire spells, I also feel this job might better played from the controller. But eh... I get by.


You can also re-bind WASD to ESDF which opens your left hand up for more keybinds. That's a little more involved since you have to also rebind a bunch of system shortcut keys to make room, but don't forget the non-numeric keys that can also be used for keybindings.

Personally, I use one of these things
[img=237592]

This gives me access to 72 practical keybinds for abilities and other functions as well as a d-pad all on my left hand. But this is by no means required to perform well with a keyboard/mouse combo.



That controller looks very complicated...how steep is the learning curve on something like that?
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#8 Sep 09 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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That controller looks very complicated...how steep is the learning curve on something like that?


It took a while, but it was well worth it for me, and a lot of getting used to it has to do with how you set it up. Think of it like a numpad on your left hand with modifier keys.

Five 12-button actionbars and a pet bar all accessible without any ridiculous hand contortion.. Smiley: inlove
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#9 Sep 09 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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My main dislike with that is the hardware expense, just as some advocate dumping $60+ on a Razer, too. In my case specifically, I'd have nowhere to place that on my desktop, either. I have a tendency to prop my feet up and sit sideways by my desk with my wireless keyboard on my lap while reaching over to my desk for the mouse, also. So, eh... I can understand it being good, but at the same time I just hate how WASD control schemes are so lopsided toward the left hand, coincidentally the non-dominant hand for many.
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#10 Sep 09 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
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Don't take half measures, Walter.

Go pro or go home. Switch to keyboard and Unbind A and D (or w/e is bound to turn left and turn right) and bind them to actions.

Turn the camera with MOUSE ONLY and remember that keyboard turning is for the scrubs.
#11 Sep 09 2013 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
My main dislike with that is the hardware expense, just as some advocate dumping $60+ on a Razer, too. In my case specifically, I'd have nowhere to place that on my desktop, either. I have a tendency to prop my feet up and sit sideways by my desk with my wireless keyboard on my lap while reaching over to my desk for the mouse, also. So, eh... I can understand it being good, but at the same time I just hate how WASD control schemes are so lopsided toward the left hand, coincidentally the non-dominant hand for many.


I definitely understand.

That thing was a gift, so I didn't have to care about what it cost.

The emphasis on left-hand actions is because your right hand is occupied with the mouse. It's something you get used to doing. You actually want your non-dominant hand doing this because the dominant hand has the harder task. Pointing with the mouse efficiently is a precision skill that requires far more dexterity than pushing buttons does. You want your strong hand doing that.

And before someone says it.. yes, I know you can still use a right-handed mouse while left-handed. You can learn to do all kinds of things when the world is built in direct opposition to you. I'm saying that having your dominant hand pointing while your off-hand pushes buttons is generally easier to learn and easier to execute.

I also sit sideways and prop my feet up.. very comfortable.. kinda hard on my chairs.
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#12 Sep 09 2013 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I am left-handed and just learned to deal with living in a right handed world by mimicking all the right handed weirdos.
#13 Sep 09 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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KingoGoodbomber wrote:
Turn the camera with MOUSE ONLY and remember that keyboard turning is for the scrubs.

Will never understand this between a mix of skills auto-facing you here, a button to reverse view if need be, and probably even one to center view behind you if I bothered to look. Frankly, I have a bigger gripe with enclosed areas forcing my camera view into a smaller panorama, which can be a total pain on some bosses where you have to hug walls to avoid some mechanics.
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#14 Sep 09 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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This is probably not the most efficient, but I tend to only use the 1-6 keys in battle, and click the rest with my mouse as needed (they're not spells I cast on a regular basis).
It'd probably be more annoying to do on a class with more burst potential, but it works on my SMN.
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#15 Sep 09 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm a dork and remapped all my keybindings from the standard WASD over to the FFXI's numpad configuration. I'm just so used to it at this point.
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#16 Sep 09 2013 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Just make sure to Keybind "Nearest enemy" where you can tap it easily next to your movement keys.

Keybinding left/right cycling through targets is a step up from that (when the next target you want is not the nearest.)

Personally I just zoom the camera way out and click directly on the target I want next. If you just cast a single AoE spell or ability on bunched up targets early in the encounter, then ALL of the enemies that get hit will appear on your Enemy List for easy click targeting. This includes THM/BLM AoE sleep.

Advanced Target Marking:
I also have keybind for tagging enemies. I dragged the icon for Signs #1,#2 and #3 out from the Signs menu out on to my hotbar. Then associated 3 keybinds in a row for these signs. Under those, I have the keybind for "Cycle through enemies - Nearest to Furthest".

To quickly tag the three nearest enemies in the room I tap: Cycle > #1 > Cycle > #2 > Cycle > #3. Now the 3 nearest enemies are tagged #1,#2, #3.

Sometime you have to take the time to number these in a specific way, like caster first. But not usually. It really helps the party to focus down single enemies this way. It tells everyone who the next target will be without waiting to see. It tells the Mage who can be put to Sleep.

Bonus: You can click on the Tag itself to target enemies. Which is great because they are floating up above the mess.

Edited, Sep 9th 2013 4:07pm by Gnu
#17 Sep 09 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirby wrote:
This is probably not the most efficient, but I tend to only use the 1-6 keys in battle, and click the rest with my mouse as needed (they're not spells I cast on a regular basis).
It'd probably be more annoying to do on a class with more burst potential, but it works on my SMN.

With A and D unbinded I usually put the most used abilities to A and D and others to shift+A, shift+D, shift+Q/W/E/R/S/F/G/Z/X/C/V, I tend to be careful what I bind to shift+Q/E/W/S (strafe left/right and move forward/back) making sure it is stuff I generally don't use when movement is important.

I usually have redundancy with 1-0 up top but I rarely use them except 3 and 4, e.g. copy the 1 ability to A, the 2 ability to D, leave 3 and 4, copy 5 to shift+A and 6 to Shift+D, etc.

I rest my pinky on shift, that way I never have to move my hand from AWSD and can access a plethora of abilities.
#18 Sep 09 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
I'm a dork and remapped all my keybindings from the standard WASD over to the FFXI's numpad configuration. I'm just so used to it at this point.


Me too. I tap Enter with my thumb for "Target Nearest Enemy".

Because of this, I had to remap "chat bar" to the Spacebar.

I'm not sure if anyone plays with "Direct Chat" enabled. I know some controller users do. This can be turned off in Keybind menu, very top of the menu. Then you can keybind a ton of other thing to the alpha numeric keys.
#19 Sep 09 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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The Main Tank is an idea familiar with everyone in the MMO community but for some reason articulating the Main Assist idea to a group is like speaking Latin to the MMO community. Most conflate it with the MT and just assume that w/e the MT is targeting they need to target even though it is rarely the case.
#20 Sep 09 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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FFXI used the ← → ↑ ↓ keys on the numpad(2, 4, 6, 8) for player movement if I remember correctly. If you're used to that before going gamepad, try key binding to them, if possible.

Edited, Sep 9th 2013 5:07pm by TwilightSkye
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#21 Sep 09 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Play 1st person shooter games like the COD series or BF3. You'll learn how to move your character around and generally react faster than people playing with gamepads.
#22 Sep 09 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Seriha wrote:
To be honest, I doubt your transition will leave you feeling much better. The benefit of the mouse certainly enables for quicker/precise selection (assuming your target isn't surrounded by other things), but my consistent gripe with WASD is you don't really get comfortable access to more than 5 abilities unless you like contorting your thumb toward ctrl/alt to double/triple your potential. So if I'm remembering right, the cross-hotbar gives you access to 16 abilities at what's probably far greater comfort. It's at this point where I'd say I prefer XI's style of keyboard only over WASD, but the game's pacing probably wouldn't support that, nevermind likely similar targeting and interface issues.

Pragmatically, it might be good to consider what you really need on your bar. I am keyboard/mouse and I have a bar for potions, ethers, antidotes, and so on... but to be honest, I never or very rarely use them. Being BLM at the moment, there are also some abilities I very rarely use like Sure Cast, Convert, or Apothe-whatever. Given the number of ice/fire spells, I also feel this job might better played from the controller. But eh... I get by.


You can also re-bind WASD to ESDF which opens your left hand up for more keybinds. That's a little more involved since you have to also rebind a bunch of system shortcut keys to make room, but don't forget the non-numeric keys that can also be used for keybindings.

Personally, I use one of these things
Screenshot


This gives me access to 72 practical keybinds for abilities and other functions as well as a d-pad all on my left hand. But this is by no means required to perform well with a keyboard/mouse combo.


That looks interesting. So you use the thumbstick to move and your mouse to control you camera? If that's how it works that may work for me. I've only XI and XIV played using a controller so my brain is already wired to use stick with my left thumb to move.
#23 Sep 09 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
That looks interesting. So you use the thumbstick to move and your mouse to control you camera? If that's how it works that may work for me. I've only XI and XIV played using a controller so my brain is already wired to use stick with my left thumb to move.


I use the d-pad for forward movement and strafing, control the camera with the mouse (forward movement on the mouse too.. just depends on the situation).

In WoW I also used the d-pad for extra keybindings (shift-up shift-down, etc) for changing stances or druid forms or whatever.
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#24 Sep 09 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
That looks interesting. So you use the thumbstick to move and your mouse to control you camera? If that's how it works that may work for me. I've only XI and XIV played using a controller so my brain is already wired to use stick with my left thumb to move.


I use the d-pad for forward movement and strafing, control the camera with the mouse (forward movement on the mouse too.. just depends on the situation).

In WoW I also used the d-pad for extra keybindings (shift-up shift-down, etc) for changing stances or druid forms or whatever.


So you don't use it for backward movement? Just curious, with a controller I can just pull back on the stick to get out of AoE range etc.
#25 Sep 09 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Occasionally I'll use it to backpedal, but it's almost always wrong to do so.

It's far better to turn the camera 90 degrees and strafe away. Backpedaling is slower, but sometimes you know you have lots of time and don't care.

EDIT: i can haz spel

Edited, Sep 9th 2013 5:36pm by Callinon
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#26 Sep 09 2013 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Occasionally I'll use it to backpeddle, but it's almost always wrong to do so.

It's far better to turn the camera 90 degrees and strafe away. Backpeddling is slower, but sometimes you know you have lots of time and don't care.


Ah I see. With a controller there is no backpedal unless you're locked on. Otherwise you do a complete 180 and are going forward, just backwards. Thanks.
#27 Sep 09 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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All you need is a naga mouse (or similar gaming mouse with 3rd party macro set up)

The in game macro doesn't work past one decimal, meaning your GCD of 2.44 needs to be waited for 2.5 to work...bad stuff.

What you then want to do is make a few macros (most software lets you record actions so no programming needed, and its actually more user friendly than the in game macro, while being way more efficient)

Whatever class you are, im sure you notice you use some skills in a rotation, other situational.

The main thing you are going to have issues with is the fact that you need lots of stuff bound to your keyboard and many button on the keyboard are not viable for constant use. You are not going to want the default 6,7,8,9,0,-,= keys on your hotbar to remain that way and attempt to finger press them.

So you are going to need to go into keybinds and figure out what keys other than wasd you don't need and assign hotbar spots to them. Some even go as far as only using W to move forward and none of the ASD or QE strafe (its better to mouse turn)

So you make macros for your extra mouse buttons, and can remove those skills from your hotbar (or keep them to watch) and place other situational skills on your `,1,2,3,4,5 with the ones you use most often or time is the essence type skills to the buttons you can hit the fastest and easiest.

Now comes to rare use stuff. Food, potions, pets, strange skills or buffs. These you can set up away from your main cluster and mose over to click them. This will allow you to use just about every skill without having to dislocate a finger or create a 90 button ps3 game pad.

Some tips on keeping a clean screen. You can click the hot bar arrows on your primary hotbar, scroll back to like bar 5-7 and place combo skills or rotation skills there, go into keybind and rebind every slot with a skills to somewhere on your keyboard if you are going to macro off your mouse use like number pad binds and set that in your mouse macro, you wont even have to be on this hotbar and now those skills can be out of your way. (I do recommend placing combo and rotation skills somewhere seen for a bit as you tweak your macro so you can see them being used and cool downs ect)

Now if you did all of this...your staring now at a foreign screen whith a completely changed combat mechanic...its going to take some getting use to...you might want to rebind stuff after a bit of play...you might want to move stuff... this stuff takes PC games a bit of time to settle into a keybind/macro/HUD layout that feels right...you will find it though.

Once you get it right youll never go back...will fit you like a glove, your DPS will drastically improve if your macros are set to the correct GCD, and you wont have to ignore skills you cant use (you should never ignore skills).
#28 Sep 09 2013 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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The best gaming keyboards are cheapo ones without bloat that you can pop keys out of without worry. Last time I checked Korean SC players use $10 keyboards and things like Samsung DT-35 hardly revolutionary or innovative.
#29 Sep 09 2013 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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KingoGoodbomber wrote:
The best gaming keyboards are cheapo ones without bloat that you can pop keys out of without worry. Last time I checked Korean SC players use $10 keyboards and things like Samsung DT-35 hardly revolutionary or innovative.


That is true, there is skill involved. Buying the best gaming peripherals won't make you a better player. You might have the illusion of being a better player and I guess that helps psychologically. But the good news is that you can improve your gaming skills by adapting and striving to become better and better at games.
#30 Sep 09 2013 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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ASpaceman wrote:
KingoGoodbomber wrote:
The best gaming keyboards are cheapo ones without bloat that you can pop keys out of without worry. Last time I checked Korean SC players use $10 keyboards and things like Samsung DT-35 hardly revolutionary or innovative.


That is true, there is skill involved. Buying the best gaming peripherals won't make you a better player. You might have the illusion of being a better player and I guess that helps psychologically. But the good news is that you can improve your gaming skills by adapting and striving to become better and better at games.


Absolutely. You don't need the fancy toys to do well.

As long as you aren't handicapping yourself by doing something like keyboard turning, you'll be fine with whatever you're comfortable using. As long as you can move and use your abilities easily, you're golden.
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#31 Sep 09 2013 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
little late to the party..maybe.

I use both the Nostromo shown above with a Razer Naga. They take about an hour at most to get use to.

Nostromo has WASD in the middle for me, and then 1-0, plus space (#15), plus the wheel button up is my M (for map) and down is I (inventory). My #3 is the down button on the D-pad. Left on d-pad is my Speak button (for vent/mumble) the other 3 buttons I've yet to use (the bit round button above the d-pad seems to be hit or miss in how well it will function. Mine is sh*ttly made, so I don't even bother to asign anything to it).

My Razer Naga is then CTRL+1 - =, so bascially Action BAr #2's row. Scroll wheel is zoom in and out, and the 13 & 14 button are unused (the way I place my hand on the mouse, they are a reach to use).

As for my UI, I don't have a current pic, but I did unlock BAR 3 for stuff I click (long CDs) and BAR 8 (moved to right side of screen) for Random stuff (minion, Chocobo stuff).

I play on a lap top, so using the above, I can keep my arms/wrist/hands at what feels like a more natural comfortable position.

Edited, Sep 9th 2013 6:54pm by Sandinmygum
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#32 Sep 09 2013 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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For reference, my Nostromo is set up like this:

 
Shift 1 2 3 - 
Ctrl  4 5 6 = 
Alt   7 8 9   


Wheel is pageup/pagedn (some games have a use for this, most don't... in Aion I used it to open/close my wings for instance).
Wheel button is mouse3 which is my vent/mumble button. Can press it on either the Nostromo or the mouse, whichever is more convenient at the time.

The thumb button is 0 which I use as a cooldown key, the small button above that is Tab, and I've already explained the d-pad.

For modifier keys, they're all nice and accessible, and ctrl+alt and shift+ctrl are comfortable enough to hit as modifier combinations, though some of the buttons don't work super well with shift+ctrl (shift+ctrl+7 for example kinda sucks). In general I use the shift+ctrl combo to operate a pet bar which is not something I need to interact with a lot during the normal course of gameplay.
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#33 Sep 09 2013 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
jaggars wrote:
So in FFXI I used a gamepad, enjoyed it. FFXIV I'm using a gamepad and I like it, but I'm quickly running out of buttons and targetting is not much fun. I don't like switching hotbar sets in the middle of battles either...

So does anyone have any advice on how to make the switch from Gamepad to keyboard and mouse? I'd love to see some of your HUDs that look nice with a kb+m set up.

I'm a DRG btw...don't know if that makes a difference.


I just use WASD for movement and all buttons around it mapped to skills. I set up the hotbars to resemble my keyboard layout so I'm not fumbling around or having to use CTRL/ALT/Shift + a key for abilities. Other things like item sets and logs are on the right side so I don't have to fumble through menus or the small default icons.

Here's the layout. I think it's pretty intuitive.

http://s24.postimg.org/5lo9fp3lh/layout.png

Edited, Sep 10th 2013 1:42am by CaptainMalReynolds
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