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Random Dungeon Divers & Instance InterlopersFollow

#1 Sep 10 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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This is a thread dedicated to randoms. I have a lot of questions and concerns about you people who just randomly hop into an instance. Here's why I am concerned, I own a Linkshell (Check Stat Card) and we're a pretty tightly knit group. Most of us are NA/EU with good timezone scaling. Now I know people can't be on at all times. (Work, School, Life, etc etc.) But it just can't happen and when this happens I have to resort to checking for randoms with the Duty Finder. Now I don't have a problem with any random if they know what they're doing. But when I clearly give instructions as to what to do and...you just stand around like a mouth breather, then I do get a bit ****** off.....

What I commonly see when it comes to random players doing instance/dungeons.

Scenario A
-Instructions are given prior to dungeon/instance runs.
-Randoms understand completely, goals are made.
-We progress through the dungeon with a good clear time, no problems, no wipes.

Scenario B
-Instructions are given prior to dungeon/instance runs
-Randoms act like they understand, goals are not met.
-Party wipes occur, randoms act like its my fault, after instructions are clearly given.
-Random(s) get upset, leave the dungeon/instance

Now my question to you people who play all the times with randoms (I hate going outside of my Linkshell for this very reason) how do you cope with people who don't like to listen?
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#2 Sep 10 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Keep going till the job is done
#3 Sep 10 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Patience.
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#4 Sep 10 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Do you play a tank/healer? Cause honestly as dps I look to them for instructions on what to do in a dungeon.

Not pointing fingers, but the only thing I find more annoying then people who don't listen, are people who think they can tell others what to do, right are wrong, and then get ****** when no one listens.

Honestly, its called a PUG for a reason, if you group is really that stupid, drop group, write it off as a bad experience, and move on. Cause its really not worth getting that upset about.


Edited, Sep 10th 2013 5:26pm by Jeskradha
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#5 Sep 10 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Man you guys must have horrible luck, I haven't come across a PUG I absolutely just gave up on since I started this game. Now I am fortunate enough to be a tank and pretty much have the show because of that. But even leveling with my BRD I have run across some bad tanks and just pulled back my damage so as not to overload them.

I have had a few deaths but they are the usual stuff, nothing epic like that needs to be mentioned.

I haven't joined a LS or FC, I guess I should start to look for one so I can make some in game friends and go from there...........it's just a crap shoot whether they are a good group or not.

9-11-13
Just wanted to edit this, got my first 2 bad PUG's back to back on running the first Titan fight. The DD and even one healer couldn't grasp the idea of moving out of the way when her reared back and there was this huge thing on the ground that would show where his punch was going and they would get knocked off. Luckily, third try went off without a hitch.

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 11:36pm by Techsupport
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#6 Sep 10 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default
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Jeskradha wrote:
Do you play a tank/healer? Cause honestly as dps I look to them for instructions on what to do in a dungeon.

Not pointing fingers, but the only thing I find more annoying then people who don't listen, are people who think they can tell others what to do, right are wrong, and then get ****** when no one listens.

Honestly, its called a PUG for a reason, if you group is really that stupid, drop group, write it off as a bad experience, and move on. Cause its really not worth getting that upset about.


Edited, Sep 10th 2013 5:26pm by Jeskradha



I main SCH/SMN. But mostly SCH since we have no healers on my server and my LS healer is too busy working to heal much.
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#7 Sep 10 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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How far are you in the game? Because by Amadpor Keep I usually find people who know what they're doing. I actually like the progression, it feels like level 1-41 is level 1-20 in FFXI (in terms of difficulty, you can solo most of it and not know what you're doing). But after Stone Vigil I haven't had much issues with bad players, since the difficulty ramped up and those that can't handle it are still stuck on Brayflox or Stone Vigil.

In FFXI by the lvl 60 mark, unless you bought your char, you basically knew what you were doing I found - this same feeling is present at end-game, sure there are exceptions, but don't complain in the early game, there's a lot of people who are new to FF.
#8 Sep 10 2013 at 6:00 PM Rating: Default
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Just ran a Titan just to see if my suspicions were correct and scenario B happened faster than Bruce Lee punching Allakhazam. Tank went in, didn't even bother using protect on himself. He was a Paladin, Titan then did the following, he pulled his hand back, and dragged it over the Paladin's face. I didn't even have time to pop a heal with how fast Titan took him down. Our DPS sat still and I said ***** it and suicided. Got locked out of instances for 15 minutes, but I think that 15 is telling me to not go into dungeons/instances with randoms.
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#9 Sep 10 2013 at 6:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well last night I just did two Amadpor keep runs under 30 mins, one was actually 21 mins, don't base it on Titan - you'll get past the scrub dungeons soon and it'll get better.

Edited, Sep 10th 2013 8:06pm by SyniteonReflux
#10 Sep 10 2013 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
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Just did Shadow and Claw. Watched the randoms wipe over 4 times before they finally caught on, "Oh maybe we need to go in with a plan?" I just sat there and laughed at them. I love it. I should post videos. I'm tired of all the WoW players who think they can just faceroll bosses.
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My Tanking Guide - http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=297&mid=1378648576133515117
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Name: Nakami
LS: VanadielReborn
#11 Sep 10 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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As a WHM, it frequently - especially on the tougher boss fights - takes me a wipe or even two before I really figure things out. Since no one's losing any exp by dying, timers are generous, and encounters don't respawn in dungeons, who cares?

Last night I did Stone Vigil for the story for the first time. I died during the first boss and the BLM promptly ditched. We got a BRD immediately who was super friendly and cool, and didn't wipe again. Beat the final boss of SV on the first try with only the DRG left alive at the end. It was fun and exciting, and the BLM who bailed on us missed out on a good time. Oh well, the BRD was cool and I didn't have any other mages to lot against for drops for the rest of the dungeon. ;)
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#12 Sep 10 2013 at 11:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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You forgot an option.

"Full party of Semi-clueless first timers with a good attitude, and the ability to adapt"

Did Garuda today with an Italian, SERIOUSLY under-leveled, Under-geared PUG tank, (and 2 **** good, albeit very squishy FC casters ) .

The tank throughout was not just taking damage, he was drinking my MP like it was a game

I mean dead in 3 hits if I miscast, or hesitated even once.

What he had however, was FANTASTIC attitude. and I was certain once we all hit the marks, we would persevere.

Early on, everyone at some point caused a need to reset. Everyone took the big Attack to the face at least once if not a few times. ("What, Garuda switched sides?"... "Gotta move to other side of pillar" "Ok, Again!") Later on too, as fatigue sets in, mixed with the adrenaline shakes.

We figured out to keep what cover we could intact , we figured out where the LB goes ( and the Tank hit it perfectly most every time) We got through the damage, each time a bit closer, more smoothly, till we're all nearly dead, arms noodles from the adrenaline, our Tank is guzzling coffee at 3 am for the last try, and everything clicked, Garuda fell as my MP dropped to "useless" with both Hi-ethers and Shroud down
.

While I truly understand later in the game, the desire to speedrun and get things over with, and it's a perfectly acceptable way to play.

Remember there is always someone who does something first, with no prior knowledge... and there is not always a need for a hand-holding (although sometimes it is nice to just walk in, lop heads and leave)

Consider, If we individually had latched on to people of an "extreme" experience level, we would have been deprived of the muscle memory, and reflexes enforced by today's "learning experience".

Imagine how well that would go over on Hard mode.. " Well I did it once weeks ago... (DF party disbands quietly ) "

I was one of the very early Rank 10 Windurst people in XI on Bismark, and while I know it's crazy, but for the first time, I'll take the adrenaline rush of the unknown, or a severe handicap, over a guided tour, nearly every time.

Nearly being the operative term, because sometimes you just have to suck it up and ask for advice from someone who's been there.


Edited, Sep 11th 2013 2:45am by OtosanOokami
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#13 Sep 11 2013 at 1:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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ImmolatedHope wrote:
Just did Shadow and Claw. Watched the randoms wipe over 4 times before they finally caught on, "Oh maybe we need to go in with a plan?" I just sat there and laughed at them. I love it. I should post videos. I'm tired of all the WoW players who think they can just faceroll bosses.



honestly, now your just coming off as an elitest prick imo, like people who join randoms are the scum players of the earth or something.
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#14 Sep 11 2013 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Titan fight in the storyline with PUG 1. Start to explain fight and Gladiator run up an engages while I'm still explaining stage one. Wipe, repeat 4 times then Gladiator quits.

PUG 2. Explain fight, people say ok and the Conjurer decides he wants to be the tank. Wipe and another rage quit.

PUG 3. Explain fight, everyone seems to understand. Fight goes smooth as butter. Nice win.

It's trial and effort. My FC chat is hilarious sometimes, they've been doing Titan HM and always seems to get the worst White Mages, and that is the one job that needs to be on it's game in that fight.
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#15 Sep 11 2013 at 3:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Deaths happen. And luckily in this game they're no big deal. As a tank, i kinda feel responsible for these at times. I've even offered to sac-pull rooms just so we could avoid unneeded slaughter just for a single chest, when from experience i know the room is pretty hard. Especially when i know the group isnt doing too well.

First thing i look at in a PUG is how high the heals are. 500-700 range i find pretty good, if i see their cures barely reach the 300's, i know i'm going to be in for a rough time. And adjust accordingly or see if they can meet me halfway somewhere.

Second, and this is my only anoyance with PUG's. People doing massive amounts of AoE damage on all of the monsters, especially when we have three or four. There's no way i'm going to be able to keep an equal amount of hate on al of them when my MP poor is in de 1000's and my flashes already cost close 170+ MP.

I label them out for a reason, and should probably fight them in that order to. Hardest one first, no need to have it wail on us while we deal with something insignificant.

I'm just a little too patient with these things. 99% of all the dungeons i've pretty much had a "Lets do our best, and if we fail, lets try and learn from it for the next time" attitude. Even as a Paladin.

Does it upset me a little when people dont listen, follow labels or generally rush into a hallway to pull a linking dragon (seriously, not their job to do that) right as you've pointed out that 3 elementals are going to spawn if they run over there? Sure. They usually learn right after that not to rush ahead or wait for me to point things out to them.

I've only had the displeasure of leaving a duty once. The Sunken Temple of Qarn. People werent listening, blantently killing things that could easily have been correctly positioned, and the cures barely hit the 250 range. I knew we werent going to make it far into the dungeon, let alone defeat the boss like that. It was hopeless, so i left.

Only advice i can give you is to not let it bother you so much. I've had great PUG's. They perhaps werent the most efficient, but if everyone is nice and takes their time explaining or pointing out things and acts according, it will all work out in the end. I can understand you dont want to wipe ever, but what's the penalty really? Some pieces of coin? Really? Dont get upset about it and try it some more. I'm sure you didnt get everything done in the very first run yourself.
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#16 Sep 11 2013 at 4:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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ImmolatedHope wrote:
Just did Shadow and Claw. Watched the randoms wipe over 4 times before they finally caught on, "Oh maybe we need to go in with a plan?" I just sat there and laughed at them. I love it. I should post videos. I'm tired of all the WoW players who think they can just faceroll bosses.


I run plenty of randoms as WHM. I've had very few fail to complete a run.

If your having so many problems, you might want to look towards yourself. You sound like your an absolute prick, one I'd gleefully troll the **** out of in a dungeon.
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#17 Sep 11 2013 at 5:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I own a Linkshell (Check Stat Card)


Holy crap, how did you get a one!? I hear they are impossible to start.

Quote:
Tank went in, didn't even bother using protect on himself. He was a Paladin, Titan then did the following, he pulled his hand back, and dragged it over the Paladin's face. I didn't even have time to pop a heal with how fast Titan took him down.


I suspect you are the problem. You expect the tank to cast protect, you didn't cast your STRONGER version of protect, and then blame him. The problem with people in this game is ego. 100% ego. Nothing is your fault, it's that you keep getting put with bad players, right!?

You will never get better unless you look at the situation objectively and decide what YOU did wrong, how YOU could have improved the situation.

This video relates more the League of Legends, but the advice is very valid to working better with a team.



Edited, Sep 11th 2013 7:20am by Louiscool
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#18 Sep 11 2013 at 5:12 AM Rating: Excellent
I've done everything so far up to Titan and Dzamael Darkhold through PUGs and have had 0 issues. Did I get a couple of parties that weren't optimal, yup, but it's been the rare instance. You'd be amazed what being nice and easy going gets you. I've even seen complete asses change their tune after the other 3 people were chill and just joking around.
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#19 Sep 11 2013 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Usually if every pug group you get into is bad, the problem may not be with the other players.
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#20ImmolatedHope, Posted: Sep 11 2013 at 5:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No. I'm not saying EVERY Pug group is bad, but 9/10 I end up with people who either A. Know what to do and we breeze through it. Or B. I end up with people who don't know what they're doing and I end up dealing with the issue.
#21 Sep 11 2013 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also my stronger version of "Protect" is a temporary protect method which only absorbs as much as I heal with and then diminishes upon the damage counter being higher than the original heal amount. So yes I expect a PALADIN who should have the cross class abilities of a Conjurer who get's Protect at level 8 to cast it on himself. I mean god forbid me actually using mine because I need to pull my fairy out and keep the tank alive.


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#22 Sep 11 2013 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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ImmolatedHope wrote:
Just leave if you're going to troll. Also my stronger version of "Protect" is a temporary protect method which only absorbs as much as I heal with and then diminishes upon the damage counter being higher than the original heal amount. So yes I expect a PALADIN who should have the cross class abilities of a Conjurer who get's Protect at level 8 to cast it on himself. I mean god forbid me actually using mine because I need to pull my fairy out and keep the tank alive.

Now I hope I am totally misreading this but... You do know that Scholar has access to Conjurer abilities right? Like protect. Summoner doesn't but Scholar does.
#23 Sep 11 2013 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've only had two really bad PUG experiences. One was with a group where everyone was experiencing lag so everyone was getting knocked over by Titan. The other was on a Cutter's run where the other three members simply refused to listen - after the first wipe on the first boss, I asked if everyone had done this before so that I could explain strategy. Only one of them replied, and he said "it's good I think" or something like that, not even answering my question. I figured I'd give it another shot, but we wiped again on the first boss, so I just bailed since no one seemed interested in discussing strategy or even talking. I'm willing to suffer wipe after wipe (the first time I did cutter's we were all noobs and it took us 5 tries to beat the first boss as we experimented but it was fun and we finally did win and it felt great) if there's good communication and people who seem willing to learn from my experience and lend me theirs.

Another funny anecdote, my first run through Stone Vigil, the BLM kvetches and bails immediately after a single wipe on the first boss even knowing it was my and one other member's first try there. He was replaced by a BRD who was super friendly and extremely cool, and we didn't wipe again and went on to beat the boss. Oh, and since it was a BRD instead of a BLM, I got to solely need lot the mage drops. :P

Goes to show, I think, you should give stuff a chance, but only within reason. If people refuse to communicate or to learn from experience and mistakes, there's nothing you can do but leave or waste more time.
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#24 Sep 11 2013 at 10:56 PM Rating: Decent
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MrTalos wrote:
ImmolatedHope wrote:
Just leave if you're going to troll. Also my stronger version of "Protect" is a temporary protect method which only absorbs as much as I heal with and then diminishes upon the damage counter being higher than the original heal amount. So yes I expect a PALADIN who should have the cross class abilities of a Conjurer who get's Protect at level 8 to cast it on himself. I mean god forbid me actually using mine because I need to pull my fairy out and keep the tank alive.

Now I hope I am totally misreading this but... You do know that Scholar has access to Conjurer abilities right? Like protect. Summoner doesn't but Scholar does.


I don't see what relevance it has. The Protect spell is the same thing as any class that can use it. So the argument holds no water. Unless in FF XI you're talking about Protect Protect II Protect III Protect IV Protect V. The only difference was the duration the spell stayed. Like I said, while a Paladin is casting that spell I'd usually be busy summoning Eos out.

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#25 Sep 11 2013 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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We work together, or we die alone.

I am a believer that we all carry with us our own set of strengths and weaknesses playing these games. In a group setting, it's everyone's responsibility to adjust your own to meet the abilities of others. Never go into a situation thinking just because you may have perfect knowledge of your abilities and how to apply them to the task at hand, so should every one else. Especially when going into a situation with complete strangers.
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#26 Sep 11 2013 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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ImmolatedHope wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
honestly, now your just coming off as an elitest prick imo, like people who join randoms are the scum players of the earth or something.


No. I'm not. I've been a avid FF fan for over 10 years now. I think that's just me being a fan talking than anything else. Also how do you expect me to feel when people come into a game franchise you respect and say, "Oh this is just another WoW rip." "Oh this game sucks. It's like WoW." Then by all means expect me to be an @#%^.



I've been an avid FF fan for over 25 years, been playing FF since the orignal NES. I don't really understand what people saying this is a WoW rip, or bashing on the franchise, has to do with pug groups, .

Honestly to make a MMO and not rip off WoW, or basically what is expected to be in any MMO (events, dungeon finder, some form of daily quests) would be pretty stupid IMO. People call it a rip cause it really is, and its a good thing.

GW2 missed this by not having a dungeon finder tool, which last I heard they are implementing, to little to late.

I was more pointing to the fact that you just watched your group wipe 4 times and then just laughed at them. I've been in a lot of pugs and I've dealt with a lot of stupidity. Either learn to help, or move on, or just don't que.

In my experience, people with a lofty attitude, as in, "You guys are all stupid l2p noobs, I healed blah blah blah so obviously its not me" really don't do anything besides *****, ruin the game for others, and have no interest in trying to help someone else learn the mechanics of the game.

ImmolatedHope wrote:
No. I'm not saying EVERY Pug group is bad, but 9/10 I end up with people who either A. Know what to do and we breeze through it. Or B. I end up with people who don't know what they're doing and I end up dealing with the issue


So 9/10 you end up with bad players, or 9/10 you end up with people who don't know what they are doing, This had me confused.

Really its pretty simple, if you don't want to take the chance that you might have to (gasp) help someone do us all a favor, stick with people you know, and don't que.
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#27 Sep 12 2013 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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ImmolatedHope wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
ImmolatedHope wrote:
Just leave if you're going to troll. Also my stronger version of "Protect" is a temporary protect method which only absorbs as much as I heal with and then diminishes upon the damage counter being higher than the original heal amount. So yes I expect a PALADIN who should have the cross class abilities of a Conjurer who get's Protect at level 8 to cast it on himself. I mean god forbid me actually using mine because I need to pull my fairy out and keep the tank alive.

Now I hope I am totally misreading this but... You do know that Scholar has access to Conjurer abilities right? Like protect. Summoner doesn't but Scholar does.


I don't see what relevance it has. The Protect spell is the same thing as any class that can use it. So the argument holds no water. Unless in FF XI you're talking about Protect Protect II Protect III Protect IV Protect V. The only difference was the duration the spell stayed. Like I said, while a Paladin is casting that spell I'd usually be busy summoning Eos out.



In 1.0 Protect is dependent on buff magic potency. While this stat has now been scrapped, it's not known if Protect is dependant on another magic stat or not (and I suspect it does as skills like Second Wind now has a clear Potency, or most spells/skills for those reasons). Also Protect last 30 mins, there is no reason not to buff Protect the whole party BEFORE engaging anything, much less keeping anyone alive if you don't engage anything.

CNJ/WHM Protect as stated, add Magic Def due to Class Trait.
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#28 Sep 12 2013 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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ImmolatedHope wrote:
Also how do you expect me to feel when people come into a game franchise you respect and say, "Oh this is just another WoW rip." "Oh this game sucks. It's like WoW." Then by all means expect me to be an @#%^.


Unfortunately for SE, they didn't follow through with the 'moar liek WoW' enough when it comes to the Duty Finder.

In WoW, the LFG and LFR tools are primarily used for 'easymode' content. You queue up for instances and raids that are trivial for almost anyone at the required gear level. Instead of 'you must be this tall to ride' mentality of said gear level being a minimum requirement for entrance, it's almost a guarantee of success. If that wasn't enough, you are granted a stacking buff called 'determination' that increases your health and damage based on the number of times you wipe.

These concepts have a synergy with the progression style of WoW, but they don't carry over to FFXIV. You can't just toss PUGs and organized raid groups at the same difficulty level content and expect it to work well. This is something the devs are going to have to realize and adjust soon if they expect both types of groups to be successful.
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#29 Sep 12 2013 at 1:20 AM Rating: Default
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Khornette wrote:
ImmolatedHope wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
ImmolatedHope wrote:
Just leave if you're going to troll. Also my stronger version of "Protect" is a temporary protect method which only absorbs as much as I heal with and then diminishes upon the damage counter being higher than the original heal amount. So yes I expect a PALADIN who should have the cross class abilities of a Conjurer who get's Protect at level 8 to cast it on himself. I mean god forbid me actually using mine because I need to pull my fairy out and keep the tank alive.

Now I hope I am totally misreading this but... You do know that Scholar has access to Conjurer abilities right? Like protect. Summoner doesn't but Scholar does.


I don't see what relevance it has. The Protect spell is the same thing as any class that can use it. So the argument holds no water. Unless in FF XI you're talking about Protect Protect II Protect III Protect IV Protect V. The only difference was the duration the spell stayed. Like I said, while a Paladin is casting that spell I'd usually be busy summoning Eos out.



In 1.0 Protect is dependent on buff magic potency. While this stat has now been scrapped, it's not known if Protect is dependant on another magic stat or not (and I suspect it does as skills like Second Wind now has a clear Potency, or most spells/skills for those reasons). Also Protect last 30 mins, there is no reason not to buff Protect the whole party BEFORE engaging anything, much less keeping anyone alive if you don't engage anything.

CNJ/WHM Protect as stated, add Magic Def due to Class Trait.


Ah. I'm still learning the mechanics of the game still, but thanks for the information.
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FF: XIV - Server: Brynhildr
Name: Deadly Waltz
FC: SWORN
My Brayflox's Longstep Final Boss Guide - http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=13785160615194813
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FF XI - Server: Phoenix
Name: Nakami
LS: VanadielReborn
#30 Sep 12 2013 at 1:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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I most of the times end up in pugs alone or with another guy from the FC. So far I finished every dungeon I did. There were bad pugs yes. Tank wasn't paying attention (no flash QQ) and stuff like that. If someone didn't know tactics I would help out. If he didn't say anything and we got wiped cause of his mistake then I would simple point out that he needs to do this or that to win.

You only need patience really. I never had that really really bad party. I once died like 3 or 4 times in the end boss but even then was not that big of a deal.

Not trying to offend you but from the way you were speaking at your first post you sound like the guys that I REALLY hate in parties. People who tell you what to do without been asked or making comments for how you will "improve" your dps etc. Every time I had those was so annoying I was seriously thinking to just wipe so that I can **** him off. Thankfully I was also thinking about the rest of the people in the parties to not do that.
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