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Discussion: Does DRG need a buff?Follow

#1 Sep 11 2013 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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I was reading a thread over on Reddit and it appears there are some major discrepancies in the usefulness of Dragoon in end-game content.

LINK TO REDDIT DISCUSSION

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So with endgame dungeons etc being done a fair bit now a few things are popping up on my FFXIV APP parser and others in my FC when they do group content.

Dragoon. It is good melee dps class but is out dps'ed in nearly every battle by a Bard and Black Mage (not by loads but still) and depending on the fight on par with Monk but provide much better burst when needed. With equal gear sets.

Now thats all fine, range classes are most likely going to deal more damage due to the mechanics of the game and Black Mages are made of glass but the thing that we all cant work out is, why should we bring a Dragoon to any of the endgame content?

They offer very little support for other classes compared to the other DPS classes. Lets have a look here:

Black Mage:

AoE Sleep

Lethargy (Slow and heavy instant range cast)

Best AoE damage in the game

Apocatastasis (grants elemental resistance to a party member)

Can take Eye for an Eye from ACN for a barrier if needed

Can take Virus from ACN for a debuff to the bosses/mobs stats

Can also heal themselves if they know an attack is about to land (eg. Titan falling from the sky, preload Physick on someone who is already low or yourself) ALTHOUGH IT IS VERY WEAK.

EDIT: Freeze (AoE Bind at a specified location)

Summoner

Instant cast battle res (if THM is levelled up to 26) in my opinion this is just great

Virus

Eye for an Eye

Bard

The songs! all the songs have great usage and I dont think I need to explain why they bring great support to a group at times

Rain of Death (lowers targets damage dealt)

Can take Mantra from Monk if needed to help with healing

Monk

Mantra for more effective healing (good as you are generally near the tank most of the time who will need the mantra buff)

2 Different stuns, 1 ranged and 1 melee range

Can remove a buff from a boss/mob with One Ilm Punch

Can AoE Silence

EDIT: Dragon kick (reduces target's blunt resistance by 10% aiding in their DPS but no one elses as far as I am aware - Also lowers the bosses/mobs INT by 10%).

Dragoon

Weaker Mantra but can still grab it from the Monk tree

2 Different stuns, 1 ranged and 1 melee just like monk

EDIT: Disembowel (reduces target's piercing resistance by 10% aiding in their DPS and bards).

EDIT: Feint (Slow +20% for 20 seconds) Cross class skill for Bard and Monk also. 10s slow compared to the upgraded version dragoon have which is 20s.

SO! With all that laid on the table I want to start a discussion here about what your thoughts are regarding this? Am I missing something here? Or do Dragoons need a buff to their group play because right now they have the least amount of group support and do not hold top spot for DPS, so why would you take them over a Monk? Or anyone else for that matter.


I'm only in the low-30's right now, so not quite at 50 yet... but I would really like to know if this is true, and what could be done to level the playing field some by SE in a "balancing".

Please discuss, and any advice on how to be the best Dragoon I can be would be great. Smiley: grin


Edited, Sep 11th 2013 12:47pm by Hairspray

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 12:50pm by Hairspray

Edited, Dec 16th 2013 2:00pm by Vlorsutes Lock Thread: Request by OP
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#2 Sep 11 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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A long while ago, in a game far, far away, I had mentioned off hand how no matter what Square did with the Dragoon class that the players would complain about how weak they were. It never occurred to me that that particular tradition would carry over to a new game.
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#3 Sep 11 2013 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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DRG is just fine, but some people only look at raw data without being able to interpret it properly. For example, one of the weaknesses of any front line class is dodging the AoE's. That's not just a DRG concern. However, DRG has a few tools that help the job surpass other dps. One example is the Super Jump(yes, I'm calling it by the FFXI name) ability that sheds hate. This allows for DRG's to wreck havoc including using the LB more often without having a death sentence. Speaking of LB, it's common knowledge by most people that DRG has the most damaging LB so far. Now will I complain if they buff DRG some more, **** no, but it's the playerbase that isn't exploiting the job enough if any of this reedit nonsense holds any truth.



Edited, Sep 11th 2013 12:40pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#4 Sep 11 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hairspray wrote:
I was reading a thread over on Reddit and it appears there are some major discrepancies in the usefulness of Dragoon in end-game content.

LINK TO REDDIT DISCUSSION

Quote:
Black Mage:

AoE Sleep

Lethargy (Slow and heavy instant range cast)

Best AoE damage in the game

Apocatastasis (grants elemental resistance to a party member)

Can take Eye for an Eye from ACN for a barrier if needed

Can take Virus from ACN for a debuff to the bosses/mobs stats

Can also heal themselves if they know an attack is about to land (eg. Titan falling from the sky, preload Physick on someone who is already low or yourself) ALTHOUGH IT IS VERY WEAK.

EDIT: Freeze (AoE Bind at a specified location)



This was written by someone who doesn't play the black mage job. While Aoe sleep and lethargy are important, they dont work on bosses (or most of their adds). Virus in the scope of things is really not too potent, the timer is long, and the effect is short. Apocatastasis is only for 1 person, not for the party. The timer is really long. Psysick is only really good for yourself. Only heals for 250-350. If blm is subbing as healer, it is game over. Aoe damage is ok, especially Blizzard II, we have that going for us becuase we dont have to target. And Freeze doesnt do damage and again, doesnt work on bosses (or most of their adds). People arent worried about dps to help them get to the boss. They worry about dps on the boss. So in that regard, I dont believe that dragoon hits any less hard than I do. I routinely party up with Happy Slappy and his non-ifrit spear and he does a pretty hefty amount of damage as dragoon.
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#5 Sep 11 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
DRG is just fine, but some people only look at raw data without being able to interpret it properly. For example, one of the weaknesses of any front line class is dodging the AoE's. That's not just a DRG concern. However, DRG has a few tools that help the job surpass other dps. One example is the Super Jump(yes, I'm calling it by the FFXI name) ability that sheds hate. This allows for DRG's to wreck havoc including using the LB more often without having a death sentence. Speaking of LB, it's common knowledge by most people that DRG has the most damaging LB so far. Now will I complain if they buff DRG some more, **** no, but it's the playerbase that isn't exploiting the job enough if any of this reedit nonsense holds any truth.

OP wrote:

Summoner

Instant cast battle res (if THM is levelled up to 26) in my opinion this is just great


No, only CNJ/WHM can do this, not SMN. The ability to raise in battle is impossible for other jobs. After the fight, who cares if you have an instant raise or not. If the WHM goes down during a raid, you can't even raise him on SMN. It's because of this....


Lv28 CNJ Trait Allows the casting and Raise while engaged in battle.

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 12:18pm by ShadowedgeFFXI

Doesn't the ACN Resurrection spell start without the "cannot be used when in combat" restriction?
#6 Sep 11 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
Yes, Arcanist's rez can be used in battle. I've done it loads of times.
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#7 Sep 11 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Final Heaven. Very big number, scare the boss to dead, or not.
Monk can do Final Heaven but natively MNK stat has slightly less attack power than DRG (due to MNK nature of sustaining high DPS over long period of time and not DPS burst damage).

Melee DPS and BRD are also more mobile than BLM and SMN, their Weapon Skills (except Jump attack types) are not animation locked nor required casting time. If BLM move, they can't cast. If they cast, they can't move.

All Raise and Ressurection outside of CNJ/WHM can be used in Battle (as well as the 1.0 Expectorant which is now unavailable through GC Quartermaster). You need to be not on enmity top list of any particular mobs it seems.
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#8 Sep 11 2013 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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DRG is fine, the one they should look at is MNK, its by far the most reliant on positioning which causes it to lose alot of DPS, plus its a melee dps like DRG, but with less armor.
#9 Sep 11 2013 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Here is the deal with DRG.

I think it may be the highest single target DPS class, possibly by a lot. However, it brings NOTHING else to the table.

Also, its not easy to get their maximum DPS, as you have to basically have the mob stand still, apply your flank buff, apply your from behind debuff, apply DOT's, combo correctly, using that insta crit for your last big hit combo and repeat.

So what happens when the mob moves and your combo from behind doesn't apply the debuff you need? DPS drops. What happens when your third combo is ready and you apply the crit buff and then the boss takes flight...dps drops.

Im sure the same can be said for Monk...however...monk brings other stuff to the table.

So what ive determined, via parsing and talk with others, is that DRG are going to be the top single target DPS when the conditions are right...and for instance vs garuda, they will be a liability unless they preform so well as to make up the fact that they cant aoe long term ect.

So I don't think they need a buff...unless their mechanics prove too complicated to reach their much needed full potential...during complicated boss fights.

There are a LOT of dragoons out there...tons...and I think most will be really...really...bad. You need to macro this class and you need to do stuff in the right order which means you cant just stand there and expect great dps.
#10 Sep 11 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Oh god it's NA release nerfed pentathrust all over again.
#11 Sep 11 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
A long while ago, in a game far, far away, I had mentioned off hand how no matter what Square did with the Dragoon class that the players would complain about how weak they were. It never occurred to me that that particular tradition would carry over to a new game.


Dragoon is the worst Damage Dealing job, except for all those other Damage Dealing jobs that have been tried... [/winstonchurchill]
#12 Sep 11 2013 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
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Oh god it's NA release nerfed pentathrust all over again.


OMG, it's FFXI all over again.
#13 Sep 11 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I dont see anything wrong with them. I've cleared everything up to titan with a core of us and one of us being a DRG. He is pulling our highest DPS
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#14 Sep 11 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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DuferBloodmoon wrote:
I dont see anything wrong with them. I've cleared everything up to titan with a core of us and one of us being a DRG. He is pulling our highest DPS


hi its Crunchy

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:56pm by Strangerous
#15 Sep 11 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Strangerous wrote:
DuferBloodmoon wrote:
I dont see anything wrong with them. I've cleared everything up to titan with a core of us and one of us being a DRG. He is pulling our highest DPS


hi its Crunchy

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:56pm by Strangerous



Crunchyblack? Add my steam, Dufer. Justin bieber wayne face

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:57pm by DuferBloodmoon
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#16 Sep 11 2013 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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DuferBloodmoon wrote:
Strangerous wrote:
DuferBloodmoon wrote:
I dont see anything wrong with them. I've cleared everything up to titan with a core of us and one of us being a DRG. He is pulling our highest DPS


hi its Crunchy

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:56pm by Strangerous



Crunchyblack? Add my steam, Dufer. Justin bieber wayne face

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:57pm by DuferBloodmoon


I have CyberDowns only I forgot the S due to downs.
#17 Sep 11 2013 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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Holy crap, some things never change.
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#18 Sep 12 2013 at 6:31 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
A long while ago, in a game far, far away, I had mentioned off hand how no matter what Square did with the Dragoon class that the players would complain about how weak they were. It never occurred to me that that particular tradition would carry over to a new game.


But this time, you can just look at a parser and see they are worse than most other classes in equal gear.

I can't tell if its a general saturation of drgs that makes me find all the bad ones, but I I've only seen 2-3 good ones and I think it was gear-related.

Quote:
So what ive determined, via parsing and talk with others, is that DRG are going to be the top single target DPS when the conditions are right...and for instance vs garuda, they will be a liability unless they preform so well as to make up the fact that they cant aoe long term ect.


Your parses are incorrect, sir. If the condition is right, an equally-geared Brd will still out-perform them. ****, bard is always in an optimum condition, and a monk can get back into position quickly with shoulder bash, while drgs have to chase mobs around and lose out on dmg.

Seriously, as Brd I outparsed a relic+1 drg consistently on 7 runs of Amdapor Keep, and she was using the limit break! That's an extra 18k dmg per run and she was still only "on-par" with me.

I'm not trying to blow my own horn, as I only use parses to see how I can improve, but I feel that drg needs a buff.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 8:35am by Louiscool
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#19 Sep 12 2013 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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Strangerous wrote:
Here is the deal with DRG.

I think it may be the highest single target DPS class, possibly by a lot. However, it brings NOTHING else to the table.

Also, its not easy to get their maximum DPS, as you have to basically have the mob stand still, apply your flank buff, apply your from behind debuff, apply DOT's, combo correctly, using that insta crit for your last big hit combo and repeat.

So what happens when the mob moves and your combo from behind doesn't apply the debuff you need? DPS drops. What happens when your third combo is ready and you apply the crit buff and then the boss takes flight...dps drops.


You pretty much described MNK, except every other skill it seems, requires you to be at a certain position.
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#20 Sep 12 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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TwilightSkye wrote:
Strangerous wrote:
Here is the deal with DRG.

I think it may be the highest single target DPS class, possibly by a lot. However, it brings NOTHING else to the table.

Also, its not easy to get their maximum DPS, as you have to basically have the mob stand still, apply your flank buff, apply your from behind debuff, apply DOT's, combo correctly, using that insta crit for your last big hit combo and repeat.

So what happens when the mob moves and your combo from behind doesn't apply the debuff you need? DPS drops. What happens when your third combo is ready and you apply the crit buff and then the boss takes flight...dps drops.


You pretty much described MNK, except every other skill it seems, requires you to be at a certain position.


Also, a tip for "rear attacks": You can do these all very easily solo or while in front. Unlock your camera, take 2-3 steps forward through the enemy and use the move. It will proc. I do it all the time.
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#21 Sep 12 2013 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a Lancer almost lv 36 now and not once has someone complained about how much dmg at the end of the fight I did. why? because we won the fight.. isn't that what truly matters? I figure as long as I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing it shouldn't matter if the PUG,ARC,BLM out DD'd me... I mean if we lost the fight what does it matter. No matter what, someone will always out DD someone else

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 11:06am by JeremyPD55

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 11:07am by JeremyPD55
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#22 Sep 12 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:


Your parses are incorrect, sir. If the condition is right, an equally-geared Brd will still out-perform them. ****, bard is always in an optimum condition, and a monk can get back into position quickly with shoulder bash, while drgs have to chase mobs around and lose out on dmg.

Seriously, as Brd I outparsed a relic+1 drg consistently on 7 runs of Amdapor Keep, and she was using the limit break! That's an extra 18k dmg per run and she was still only "on-par" with me.

I'm not trying to blow my own horn, as I only use parses to see how I can improve, but I feel that drg needs a buff.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 8:35am by Louiscool



Shoulder Tackle is on a 90 sec recast....

DRG has 3 jumps, 2 of which actually act as gap closers....


of course a ranged class can put up more dmg. something does not sound right about your parse or the way the DRG was playing though tbh...over an 18k gap and she had relic+1? something smells funny there.

Quote:
Here is the deal with DRG.

I think it may be the highest single target DPS class, possibly by a lot. However, it brings NOTHING else to the table.

Also, its not easy to get their maximum DPS, as you have to basically have the mob stand still, apply your flank buff, apply your from behind debuff, apply DOT's, combo correctly, using that insta crit for your last big hit combo and repeat.


DRG does have a slow and 2 stuns

Its really not tough to keep up DRG combo rotations either. My only issue with DRG really is the crappy weak DoTs

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 11:34am by Llester
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#23 Sep 12 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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It's funny how so many people wish this game was FFXI-2 that they've already started to diss Dragoon.

How much do you want to bet theres thousands of FFXI veterans trying to play the job just like they did in their FFXI days?
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#24 Sep 12 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Shoulder Tackle is on a 90 sec recast....

DRG has 3 jumps, 2 of which actually act as gap closers....


of course a ranged class can put up more dmg. something does not sound right about your parse or the way the DRG was playing though tbh...over an 18k gap and she had relic+1? something smells funny there.


1 is a gap closer, the other jumps you back to your original position. (I also play Drg...)

That difference in dmg is easily made up by getting an extra 3-4 seconds on each enemy, never having to position or move, and never having to stop DPS to dodge things.
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#25 Sep 12 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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actually both DfD and SD function as gap closers, only plain Jump brings you back. I totally understand how being a ranged DPS gives you more uptime on mobs, i just find it surprising that the gap is as much as you report. Not calling you out, just saying.

edit: and i'm not saying that these gap closing options are even good. both monk and drg should have a charge/jump move on a lower CD. It doesn't have to do good damage, it just has to get the player to the mob and having it on anything more than a 20 second CD is just not enough imo. All the melee classes suffer from lack of mobility.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 2:15pm by Llester
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#26 Sep 12 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I feel like both those melee jobs need some way to stick better to enemies.

And yes, it could be something screwey with the parser, as Smn and Sch dots are messed up, ticking even when a mob is dead. As usual, a parser is a bad way to compare player to player, except in cases of huge gaps, like a DD parsing under a Tank.
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