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Discussion: Does DRG need a buff?Follow

#1 Sep 11 2013 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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I was reading a thread over on Reddit and it appears there are some major discrepancies in the usefulness of Dragoon in end-game content.

LINK TO REDDIT DISCUSSION

Quote:
So with endgame dungeons etc being done a fair bit now a few things are popping up on my FFXIV APP parser and others in my FC when they do group content.

Dragoon. It is good melee dps class but is out dps'ed in nearly every battle by a Bard and Black Mage (not by loads but still) and depending on the fight on par with Monk but provide much better burst when needed. With equal gear sets.

Now thats all fine, range classes are most likely going to deal more damage due to the mechanics of the game and Black Mages are made of glass but the thing that we all cant work out is, why should we bring a Dragoon to any of the endgame content?

They offer very little support for other classes compared to the other DPS classes. Lets have a look here:

Black Mage:

AoE Sleep

Lethargy (Slow and heavy instant range cast)

Best AoE damage in the game

Apocatastasis (grants elemental resistance to a party member)

Can take Eye for an Eye from ACN for a barrier if needed

Can take Virus from ACN for a debuff to the bosses/mobs stats

Can also heal themselves if they know an attack is about to land (eg. Titan falling from the sky, preload Physick on someone who is already low or yourself) ALTHOUGH IT IS VERY WEAK.

EDIT: Freeze (AoE Bind at a specified location)

Summoner

Instant cast battle res (if THM is levelled up to 26) in my opinion this is just great

Virus

Eye for an Eye

Bard

The songs! all the songs have great usage and I dont think I need to explain why they bring great support to a group at times

Rain of Death (lowers targets damage dealt)

Can take Mantra from Monk if needed to help with healing

Monk

Mantra for more effective healing (good as you are generally near the tank most of the time who will need the mantra buff)

2 Different stuns, 1 ranged and 1 melee range

Can remove a buff from a boss/mob with One Ilm Punch

Can AoE Silence

EDIT: Dragon kick (reduces target's blunt resistance by 10% aiding in their DPS but no one elses as far as I am aware - Also lowers the bosses/mobs INT by 10%).

Dragoon

Weaker Mantra but can still grab it from the Monk tree

2 Different stuns, 1 ranged and 1 melee just like monk

EDIT: Disembowel (reduces target's piercing resistance by 10% aiding in their DPS and bards).

EDIT: Feint (Slow +20% for 20 seconds) Cross class skill for Bard and Monk also. 10s slow compared to the upgraded version dragoon have which is 20s.

SO! With all that laid on the table I want to start a discussion here about what your thoughts are regarding this? Am I missing something here? Or do Dragoons need a buff to their group play because right now they have the least amount of group support and do not hold top spot for DPS, so why would you take them over a Monk? Or anyone else for that matter.


I'm only in the low-30's right now, so not quite at 50 yet... but I would really like to know if this is true, and what could be done to level the playing field some by SE in a "balancing".

Please discuss, and any advice on how to be the best Dragoon I can be would be great. Smiley: grin


Edited, Sep 11th 2013 12:47pm by Hairspray

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 12:50pm by Hairspray

Edited, Dec 16th 2013 2:00pm by Vlorsutes Lock Thread: Request by OP
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#2 Sep 11 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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A long while ago, in a game far, far away, I had mentioned off hand how no matter what Square did with the Dragoon class that the players would complain about how weak they were. It never occurred to me that that particular tradition would carry over to a new game.
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#3 Sep 11 2013 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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DRG is just fine, but some people only look at raw data without being able to interpret it properly. For example, one of the weaknesses of any front line class is dodging the AoE's. That's not just a DRG concern. However, DRG has a few tools that help the job surpass other dps. One example is the Super Jump(yes, I'm calling it by the FFXI name) ability that sheds hate. This allows for DRG's to wreck havoc including using the LB more often without having a death sentence. Speaking of LB, it's common knowledge by most people that DRG has the most damaging LB so far. Now will I complain if they buff DRG some more, **** no, but it's the playerbase that isn't exploiting the job enough if any of this reedit nonsense holds any truth.



Edited, Sep 11th 2013 12:40pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#4 Sep 11 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hairspray wrote:
I was reading a thread over on Reddit and it appears there are some major discrepancies in the usefulness of Dragoon in end-game content.

LINK TO REDDIT DISCUSSION

Quote:
Black Mage:

AoE Sleep

Lethargy (Slow and heavy instant range cast)

Best AoE damage in the game

Apocatastasis (grants elemental resistance to a party member)

Can take Eye for an Eye from ACN for a barrier if needed

Can take Virus from ACN for a debuff to the bosses/mobs stats

Can also heal themselves if they know an attack is about to land (eg. Titan falling from the sky, preload Physick on someone who is already low or yourself) ALTHOUGH IT IS VERY WEAK.

EDIT: Freeze (AoE Bind at a specified location)



This was written by someone who doesn't play the black mage job. While Aoe sleep and lethargy are important, they dont work on bosses (or most of their adds). Virus in the scope of things is really not too potent, the timer is long, and the effect is short. Apocatastasis is only for 1 person, not for the party. The timer is really long. Psysick is only really good for yourself. Only heals for 250-350. If blm is subbing as healer, it is game over. Aoe damage is ok, especially Blizzard II, we have that going for us becuase we dont have to target. And Freeze doesnt do damage and again, doesnt work on bosses (or most of their adds). People arent worried about dps to help them get to the boss. They worry about dps on the boss. So in that regard, I dont believe that dragoon hits any less hard than I do. I routinely party up with Happy Slappy and his non-ifrit spear and he does a pretty hefty amount of damage as dragoon.
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#5 Sep 11 2013 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
DRG is just fine, but some people only look at raw data without being able to interpret it properly. For example, one of the weaknesses of any front line class is dodging the AoE's. That's not just a DRG concern. However, DRG has a few tools that help the job surpass other dps. One example is the Super Jump(yes, I'm calling it by the FFXI name) ability that sheds hate. This allows for DRG's to wreck havoc including using the LB more often without having a death sentence. Speaking of LB, it's common knowledge by most people that DRG has the most damaging LB so far. Now will I complain if they buff DRG some more, **** no, but it's the playerbase that isn't exploiting the job enough if any of this reedit nonsense holds any truth.

OP wrote:

Summoner

Instant cast battle res (if THM is levelled up to 26) in my opinion this is just great


No, only CNJ/WHM can do this, not SMN. The ability to raise in battle is impossible for other jobs. After the fight, who cares if you have an instant raise or not. If the WHM goes down during a raid, you can't even raise him on SMN. It's because of this....


Lv28 CNJ Trait Allows the casting and Raise while engaged in battle.

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 12:18pm by ShadowedgeFFXI

Doesn't the ACN Resurrection spell start without the "cannot be used when in combat" restriction?
#6 Sep 11 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
Yes, Arcanist's rez can be used in battle. I've done it loads of times.
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#7 Sep 11 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Final Heaven. Very big number, scare the boss to dead, or not.
Monk can do Final Heaven but natively MNK stat has slightly less attack power than DRG (due to MNK nature of sustaining high DPS over long period of time and not DPS burst damage).

Melee DPS and BRD are also more mobile than BLM and SMN, their Weapon Skills (except Jump attack types) are not animation locked nor required casting time. If BLM move, they can't cast. If they cast, they can't move.

All Raise and Ressurection outside of CNJ/WHM can be used in Battle (as well as the 1.0 Expectorant which is now unavailable through GC Quartermaster). You need to be not on enmity top list of any particular mobs it seems.
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#8 Sep 11 2013 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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DRG is fine, the one they should look at is MNK, its by far the most reliant on positioning which causes it to lose alot of DPS, plus its a melee dps like DRG, but with less armor.
#9 Sep 11 2013 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Here is the deal with DRG.

I think it may be the highest single target DPS class, possibly by a lot. However, it brings NOTHING else to the table.

Also, its not easy to get their maximum DPS, as you have to basically have the mob stand still, apply your flank buff, apply your from behind debuff, apply DOT's, combo correctly, using that insta crit for your last big hit combo and repeat.

So what happens when the mob moves and your combo from behind doesn't apply the debuff you need? DPS drops. What happens when your third combo is ready and you apply the crit buff and then the boss takes flight...dps drops.

Im sure the same can be said for Monk...however...monk brings other stuff to the table.

So what ive determined, via parsing and talk with others, is that DRG are going to be the top single target DPS when the conditions are right...and for instance vs garuda, they will be a liability unless they preform so well as to make up the fact that they cant aoe long term ect.

So I don't think they need a buff...unless their mechanics prove too complicated to reach their much needed full potential...during complicated boss fights.

There are a LOT of dragoons out there...tons...and I think most will be really...really...bad. You need to macro this class and you need to do stuff in the right order which means you cant just stand there and expect great dps.
#10 Sep 11 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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Oh god it's NA release nerfed pentathrust all over again.
#11 Sep 11 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
A long while ago, in a game far, far away, I had mentioned off hand how no matter what Square did with the Dragoon class that the players would complain about how weak they were. It never occurred to me that that particular tradition would carry over to a new game.


Dragoon is the worst Damage Dealing job, except for all those other Damage Dealing jobs that have been tried... [/winstonchurchill]
#12 Sep 11 2013 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Quote:
Oh god it's NA release nerfed pentathrust all over again.


OMG, it's FFXI all over again.
#13 Sep 11 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I dont see anything wrong with them. I've cleared everything up to titan with a core of us and one of us being a DRG. He is pulling our highest DPS
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#14 Sep 11 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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DuferBloodmoon wrote:
I dont see anything wrong with them. I've cleared everything up to titan with a core of us and one of us being a DRG. He is pulling our highest DPS


hi its Crunchy

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:56pm by Strangerous
#15 Sep 11 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Strangerous wrote:
DuferBloodmoon wrote:
I dont see anything wrong with them. I've cleared everything up to titan with a core of us and one of us being a DRG. He is pulling our highest DPS


hi its Crunchy

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:56pm by Strangerous



Crunchyblack? Add my steam, Dufer. Justin bieber wayne face

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:57pm by DuferBloodmoon
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#16 Sep 11 2013 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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DuferBloodmoon wrote:
Strangerous wrote:
DuferBloodmoon wrote:
I dont see anything wrong with them. I've cleared everything up to titan with a core of us and one of us being a DRG. He is pulling our highest DPS


hi its Crunchy

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:56pm by Strangerous



Crunchyblack? Add my steam, Dufer. Justin bieber wayne face

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 8:57pm by DuferBloodmoon


I have CyberDowns only I forgot the S due to downs.
#17 Sep 11 2013 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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Holy crap, some things never change.
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#18 Sep 12 2013 at 6:31 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
A long while ago, in a game far, far away, I had mentioned off hand how no matter what Square did with the Dragoon class that the players would complain about how weak they were. It never occurred to me that that particular tradition would carry over to a new game.


But this time, you can just look at a parser and see they are worse than most other classes in equal gear.

I can't tell if its a general saturation of drgs that makes me find all the bad ones, but I I've only seen 2-3 good ones and I think it was gear-related.

Quote:
So what ive determined, via parsing and talk with others, is that DRG are going to be the top single target DPS when the conditions are right...and for instance vs garuda, they will be a liability unless they preform so well as to make up the fact that they cant aoe long term ect.


Your parses are incorrect, sir. If the condition is right, an equally-geared Brd will still out-perform them. ****, bard is always in an optimum condition, and a monk can get back into position quickly with shoulder bash, while drgs have to chase mobs around and lose out on dmg.

Seriously, as Brd I outparsed a relic+1 drg consistently on 7 runs of Amdapor Keep, and she was using the limit break! That's an extra 18k dmg per run and she was still only "on-par" with me.

I'm not trying to blow my own horn, as I only use parses to see how I can improve, but I feel that drg needs a buff.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 8:35am by Louiscool
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#19 Sep 12 2013 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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Strangerous wrote:
Here is the deal with DRG.

I think it may be the highest single target DPS class, possibly by a lot. However, it brings NOTHING else to the table.

Also, its not easy to get their maximum DPS, as you have to basically have the mob stand still, apply your flank buff, apply your from behind debuff, apply DOT's, combo correctly, using that insta crit for your last big hit combo and repeat.

So what happens when the mob moves and your combo from behind doesn't apply the debuff you need? DPS drops. What happens when your third combo is ready and you apply the crit buff and then the boss takes flight...dps drops.


You pretty much described MNK, except every other skill it seems, requires you to be at a certain position.
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#20 Sep 12 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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TwilightSkye wrote:
Strangerous wrote:
Here is the deal with DRG.

I think it may be the highest single target DPS class, possibly by a lot. However, it brings NOTHING else to the table.

Also, its not easy to get their maximum DPS, as you have to basically have the mob stand still, apply your flank buff, apply your from behind debuff, apply DOT's, combo correctly, using that insta crit for your last big hit combo and repeat.

So what happens when the mob moves and your combo from behind doesn't apply the debuff you need? DPS drops. What happens when your third combo is ready and you apply the crit buff and then the boss takes flight...dps drops.


You pretty much described MNK, except every other skill it seems, requires you to be at a certain position.


Also, a tip for "rear attacks": You can do these all very easily solo or while in front. Unlock your camera, take 2-3 steps forward through the enemy and use the move. It will proc. I do it all the time.
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#21 Sep 12 2013 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a Lancer almost lv 36 now and not once has someone complained about how much dmg at the end of the fight I did. why? because we won the fight.. isn't that what truly matters? I figure as long as I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing it shouldn't matter if the PUG,ARC,BLM out DD'd me... I mean if we lost the fight what does it matter. No matter what, someone will always out DD someone else

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 11:06am by JeremyPD55

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 11:07am by JeremyPD55
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#22 Sep 12 2013 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:


Your parses are incorrect, sir. If the condition is right, an equally-geared Brd will still out-perform them. ****, bard is always in an optimum condition, and a monk can get back into position quickly with shoulder bash, while drgs have to chase mobs around and lose out on dmg.

Seriously, as Brd I outparsed a relic+1 drg consistently on 7 runs of Amdapor Keep, and she was using the limit break! That's an extra 18k dmg per run and she was still only "on-par" with me.

I'm not trying to blow my own horn, as I only use parses to see how I can improve, but I feel that drg needs a buff.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 8:35am by Louiscool



Shoulder Tackle is on a 90 sec recast....

DRG has 3 jumps, 2 of which actually act as gap closers....


of course a ranged class can put up more dmg. something does not sound right about your parse or the way the DRG was playing though tbh...over an 18k gap and she had relic+1? something smells funny there.

Quote:
Here is the deal with DRG.

I think it may be the highest single target DPS class, possibly by a lot. However, it brings NOTHING else to the table.

Also, its not easy to get their maximum DPS, as you have to basically have the mob stand still, apply your flank buff, apply your from behind debuff, apply DOT's, combo correctly, using that insta crit for your last big hit combo and repeat.


DRG does have a slow and 2 stuns

Its really not tough to keep up DRG combo rotations either. My only issue with DRG really is the crappy weak DoTs

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 11:34am by Llester
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#23 Sep 12 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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It's funny how so many people wish this game was FFXI-2 that they've already started to diss Dragoon.

How much do you want to bet theres thousands of FFXI veterans trying to play the job just like they did in their FFXI days?
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#24 Sep 12 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Shoulder Tackle is on a 90 sec recast....

DRG has 3 jumps, 2 of which actually act as gap closers....


of course a ranged class can put up more dmg. something does not sound right about your parse or the way the DRG was playing though tbh...over an 18k gap and she had relic+1? something smells funny there.


1 is a gap closer, the other jumps you back to your original position. (I also play Drg...)

That difference in dmg is easily made up by getting an extra 3-4 seconds on each enemy, never having to position or move, and never having to stop DPS to dodge things.
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#25 Sep 12 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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actually both DfD and SD function as gap closers, only plain Jump brings you back. I totally understand how being a ranged DPS gives you more uptime on mobs, i just find it surprising that the gap is as much as you report. Not calling you out, just saying.

edit: and i'm not saying that these gap closing options are even good. both monk and drg should have a charge/jump move on a lower CD. It doesn't have to do good damage, it just has to get the player to the mob and having it on anything more than a 20 second CD is just not enough imo. All the melee classes suffer from lack of mobility.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 2:15pm by Llester
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#26 Sep 12 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I feel like both those melee jobs need some way to stick better to enemies.

And yes, it could be something screwey with the parser, as Smn and Sch dots are messed up, ticking even when a mob is dead. As usual, a parser is a bad way to compare player to player, except in cases of huge gaps, like a DD parsing under a Tank.
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#27 Sep 12 2013 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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well either way, i had long since planned on leveling Bard after i finish PLD anyway...my real concern with all of this is how its going to play out in PvP, but there's just not enough info on that whole area of the game yet to even speculate.
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#28 Sep 12 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Shoulder Tackle is on a 90 sec recast....

DRG has 3 jumps, 2 of which actually act as gap closers....


of course a ranged class can put up more dmg. something does not sound right about your parse or the way the DRG was playing though tbh...over an 18k gap and she had relic+1? something smells funny there.


1 is a gap closer, the other jumps you back to your original position. (I also play Drg...)

That difference in dmg is easily made up by getting an extra 3-4 seconds on each enemy, never having to position or move, and never having to stop DPS to dodge things.


DRG and MNK are the top DPS when played correctly, DRG even more so. A lot of times people aren't just playing to full potential, which is why some people feel SCH is horrible at healing in any instance (Support or Main) when SCH has much more utility than WHM does thanks to Eos and Selene as a 'backup'.

Also Spineshatter Dive (never use on Ifrit) and Dragonfire dive are gap closers - Elusive Jump can also be used as a gap closer in a ghetto way, so you technically have 3 Gap closers and 1 that return you to position.

My DRG and my Brother's tend to be one of the DPS in parses or close to top usually behind BLM or a really good MNK since let's face it, BLM with unlimited MP can top the parse when played correctly and almost always outparses ******* melee DPS.
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#29 Sep 12 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I can't speak to monk, despite having one at 50, but for DRG, you really need to stay on top of your buff procs and rotation to be effective. Im quite certain that most players don't do this. You can get by on a lot of the content while half-assing it.
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#30 Sep 12 2013 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Quote:
Shoulder Tackle is on a 90 sec recast....

DRG has 3 jumps, 2 of which actually act as gap closers....


of course a ranged class can put up more dmg. something does not sound right about your parse or the way the DRG was playing though tbh...over an 18k gap and she had relic+1? something smells funny there.


1 is a gap closer, the other jumps you back to your original position. (I also play Drg...)

That difference in dmg is easily made up by getting an extra 3-4 seconds on each enemy, never having to position or move, and never having to stop DPS to dodge things.


DRG and MNK are the top DPS when played correctly, DRG even more so. A lot of times people aren't just playing to full potential, which is why some people feel SCH is horrible at healing in any instance (Support or Main) when SCH has much more utility than WHM does thanks to Eos and Selene as a 'backup'.

Also Spineshatter Dive (never use on Ifrit) and Dragonfire dive are gap closers - Elusive Jump can also be used as a gap closer in a ghetto way, so you technically have 3 Gap closers and 1 that return you to position.

My DRG and my Brother's tend to be one of the DPS in parses or close to top usually behind BLM or a really good MNK since let's face it, BLM with unlimited MP can top the parse when played correctly and almost always outparses sh*ttty melee DPS.


I am eager to meet someone who can play drg correctly then, because every. single. parse. ever, has show that it's Monk and Bard, then BLM, then MRD, then maybe, if they are ok, Drg.

I am exaggerating just a tad, but I've been beaten by Monks, and never, ever, ever by a drg.
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#31 Sep 12 2013 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Parses are to be taken with a grain of salt.

I think we have been saying that since the old days in the warrior forum of FFXI, in this game (like merit parties back then) what win parses is skill and aggressiveness, players with similar gear cannot be compared unless their aggressiveness and skill are similar as well. Just right off the bat if you take 2 seconds to engage in a 10 seconds fight automatically 20% of your damage potential was lost.

OP, I think any group wants to have at lease 1 melee DPS for LB, MNK or DRG is really a matter of choice, DRG is more of a burst specialist where MNK releases it's true potential during prolonged/static fights. From that perspective MNK is great to DPS the boss while DRG is great to handle the adds, both equally important jobs.
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#32 Sep 12 2013 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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kenage wrote:
Parses are to be taken with a grain of salt.

Rather, their conclusions are. Data is data. Making a conclusion about a job as a whole being good or bad from a parser is much more sketchy.
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#33 Sep 12 2013 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
kenage wrote:
Parses are to be taken with a grain of salt.

Rather, their conclusions are. Data is data. Making a conclusion about a job as a whole being good or bad from a parser is much more sketchy.
Point taken, bottom line the way data is interpreted and presented is as important as the data itself.
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#34 Sep 12 2013 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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What about parses between a Fat Chocobo and a Black Chocobo in a race?
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#35 Sep 12 2013 at 9:30 PM Rating: Default
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kenage wrote:
Parses are to be taken with a grain of salt.

I think we have been saying that since the old days in the warrior forum of FFXI, in this game (like merit parties back then) what win parses is skill and aggressiveness, players with similar gear cannot be compared unless their aggressiveness and skill are similar as well. Just right off the bat if you take 2 seconds to engage in a 10 seconds fight automatically 20% of your damage potential was lost.

OP, I think any group wants to have at lease 1 melee DPS for LB, MNK or DRG is really a matter of choice, DRG is more of a burst specialist where MNK releases it's true potential during prolonged/static fights. From that perspective MNK is great to DPS the boss while DRG is great to handle the adds, both equally important jobs.


1) These aren't neck and neck parses. Bards and monks are easily 10-20k above drgs in most parses.

2) These are done in Amdapor Keep and Titan. Both of these are very much DPS races. I'm not out here trying to win parses, I'm trying to win content, and I'm doing it repeatedly. Time and time again, the Drg has to be much better geared than the monk or bard to be on par, not even above. If their aggressiveness doesn't match mine, that means they aren't trying to win the content, it's simple as that.

And again, this is in 5 DD parties. Parsing the lowest. Not just me, before you say that it's because I'm the one parsing so I know to put on serious face.
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#36 Sep 13 2013 at 12:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
A long while ago, in a game far, far away, I had mentioned off hand how no matter what Square did with the Dragoon class that the players would complain about how weak they were. It never occurred to me that that particular tradition would carry over to a new game.


But this time, you can just look at a parser and see they are worse than most other classes in equal gear.

I can't tell if its a general saturation of drgs that makes me find all the bad ones, but I I've only seen 2-3 good ones and I think it was gear-related.

Quote:
So what ive determined, via parsing and talk with others, is that DRG are going to be the top single target DPS when the conditions are right...and for instance vs garuda, they will be a liability unless they preform so well as to make up the fact that they cant aoe long term ect.


Your parses are incorrect, sir. If the condition is right, an equally-geared Brd will still out-perform them. ****, bard is always in an optimum condition, and a monk can get back into position quickly with shoulder bash, while drgs have to chase mobs around and lose out on dmg.

Seriously, as Brd I outparsed a relic+1 drg consistently on 7 runs of Amdapor Keep, and she was using the limit break! That's an extra 18k dmg per run and she was still only "on-par" with me.

I'm not trying to blow my own horn, as I only use parses to see how I can improve, but I feel that drg needs a buff.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 8:35am by Louiscool



Our drg is pulling about 200-210dps on garuda while I'm pulling about 170-200 ish. (As a bard) We're in relics and darklight. I honestly do not see anything wrong with DRG right now.
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#37 Dec 07 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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One thing that we all seem to be wrongly assuming here is the LB damage. Limit Break damage is calculated from the party's overall strength, and not the individual triggering the LB. That only determines the type of LB. Look it up if you doubt me.

I do believe that DRG needs a buff, no-one wants us.

Edited, Dec 7th 2013 4:03pm by Neosymbio
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#38 Dec 07 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Edit: Nevermind, old thread..

Edited, Dec 7th 2013 4:58pm by TwilightSkye
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#39 Dec 09 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Although someone necrobumped this, it kind of is relevant now... DRG is getting a 10% damage buff and some increased usefulness for jumps.. so we were not crazy for thinking it needed a buff... SE agreed!
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#40 Dec 09 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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Well actually DRG abilities animation are getting buffed to be faster and you can move instantly after/or almost instantly after it is used. SE believes that with this DRG can weave these abilities into their rotation (they are not on GCD) the approx dmg benefit will be 10%. Not that they are giving a straight 10% dmg increased to DRG. Currently the only non GCD DRG use to maximise dmg is Leg Sweep (120 potency/20 sec CD), because in later content Stun is useless so you don't care about Stun resist.
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#41 Dec 11 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Khornette wrote:
Well actually DRG abilities animation are getting buffed to be faster and you can move instantly after/or almost instantly after it is used. SE believes that with this DRG can weave these abilities into their rotation (they are not on GCD) the approx dmg benefit will be 10%. Not that they are giving a straight 10% dmg increased to DRG. Currently the only non GCD DRG use to maximise dmg is Leg Sweep (120 potency/20 sec CD), because in later content Stun is useless so you don't care about Stun resist.


I'm pretty sure that melee dps (DRG and MNK) are getting a straight 10% increase to DPS, and the jump animation fixes are in addition to that... That's what I've read on Reddit lately anyways.

Edit: And considering that Dragoon's are not getting invited to PuG's for Coil, they REALLY need to do something to make them more attractive to Coil groups... as it stands a MNK will get an invite over a DRG if they need a single-target LB due to their Silence ability...

Edited, Dec 11th 2013 4:29pm by Hairspray
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#42 Dec 11 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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You only need Silence for T1 and 2, T4 DRG can benefit ARC with Disembowel combo and T4 has been done with all physical no magic so yea...

Still, Melee DPS is not really that needed for BoC tbh (you don't really need single target LB3) and ranged at the moment just get so many advantages over melee.
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#43 Dec 12 2013 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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Not really the case at all.

Melee LB is incredibly useful for turn 1, turn 2, turn 4, and turn 5. Monk DPS is actually just a little lower than BLM DPS at the moment. And with the buffs to melee/MNK DPS and slight nerf to BLM, you can expect MNKs to be the top damage dealers come patch day.

Let's look at the short conflags in T5.

BLM and SMN REALLY have to work hard to manage their few CDs so that they can ensure the DPS encased lives. MNKs and DRGs both have such nice sustained/bursty DPS in 10 second windows with plenty of cooldowns to manage for these short conflags.

I would say BRD is sitting pretty nicely at the moment with a balance of many CDs, damage while moving, executes, DoTs, awesome procs from DoTs, and songs for everyone (realistically: BLM/SMN and your healers).

Again, will change a bit come patch.

Edited, Dec 14th 2013 9:14am by HitomeOfBismarck
#44 Dec 12 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe in T5 yes, but T1-4 all can be done without Melee. In fact some strategy favour all ranged e.g T2 or even T4, where you are much safer from not getting into melee and you don't spend time running around between mobs. Anything required physical dmg, BRD can do it. They have both DPS and Burst and do not require positioning to do combo, and can alternate songs. With a little luck BRD can go a long way over BLM or MNK DPS. Let's not kid ourselves, if there is not such a problem SE wouldn't want to boost Melee dmg. Even Yoshida acknowledged at the moment BRD brings so many things to the table compared to other jobs, it's not balanced.
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#45 Dec 13 2013 at 3:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I'm not sure how your group works, but I wouldn't bring a melee just for turn 5: I would have had them in the group prior to that. If they have a really geared alt, then sure I'd bring it but most people do not. Sounds like a similar discussion we had a few days ago...

Can be done, yes. Should be done? I don't think so. I'd rather have two magic DPS and two physical DPS (one with melee LB) for turn 4. Many groups have cleared it with 4 melee without issue. Same with T1. There are many different strategies but one that seems to work out every time is a melee to balance the DPS on both snakes so that they die at the same time.

I also don't want to have more than two people fighting for gear. You can load your group up with 3 BRDs and a caster DPS, sure, but I'm not so sure they would appreciate it when 2 others are lotting on the same gear they are.

So not only are there practical reasons for not wanting to stack classes but there are also logical ones as well.

Only case you have is turn 2. In which case, I'd still prefer a melee on the left side to push ADS out of a certain phase with the LB. Our monk happens to blow both bards and me away on left side ADS as well. Yes, the BRDs have to focus on silence and I have reduced damage due to left side's nature but ignoring his DPS is annoying as well.

Your statement "Level 3/levelwhatever melee LB is not needed" is just flat out wrong as many groups build strategies centered around it including turn 2. You don't really need black mages or summoners either as you've indicated on turn 4 yet it isn't necessarily a wise idea to neglect a certain job because you will need one of them eventually. People said the exact same thing about DRG before they knew much about how effective their synergy is with BRD on turn 5. "You don't really need one." but it happened to be quite useful later on.

In fact, I believe he even said:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/113554-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-IX-Q-A-Summary-%2810-30-2013%29
Quote:
Regarding stacked party compositions, it's actually more beneficial to have different jobs in the party to help fill your limit break gauge faster. There are a lot of situations where you can use level 3 limit breaks, so if you have a strategy that calls for limit breaks at certain times, it's be more advantageous to make parties with different jobs.


All they've said about BRD is the incredible burst they're able to do in a short amount of time was too strong. This perhaps says to me, "Prempetive PVP balance" more than PVE balance because short bursts in PVE are only talked about when it comes to things like conflag or maybe Titan's gaol/heart. However, they've also acknowledged that ranged have an easier time avoiding attacks and mainly use Titan as an example. But, he has also said, "Stop sucking." in many instances too...

Quote:
We often hear opinions that Titan is too hard, but looking a people who were participating in the Titan Challenge we held at multiple events, not only dragoons, but everyone in general had their cameras zoomed in quite a bit. I believe this is because in FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 you couldn't zoom out very far, but in order to dodge different attacks in high level encounters in FFXIV: ARR, it’d be best if you zoom your camera out to the maximum distance.

Quote:
Also, as a melee DPS, I think it's difficult to avoid bomb boulders while focusing on your attacks, but ranged DPS and healers can maintain a fair bit of distance and there may be other players in your party who are good at dodging, so if you don't know where to go you can follow these players to stay safe. Of course it's important to memorize the patterns, but quick decisions are also critical.


As for this little piece:

Khornette wrote:
With a little luck BRD can go a long way over BLM or MNK DPS.


Our BRDs parse below me and the monk on several turns every time with the same gear (or better). They generally do very well on turn 2 if we use PLD silences instead. Yoshi also stated:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1386216713100624973
Quote:
What about black mage?

Yoshida: For black mage, there's a bug related to casting speed which has put its DPS ahead of other jobs. In patch 2.1, we'll be fixing this, which should put the overall DPS of a black mage on par with that of other DPS jobs.


I feel like your theoretical situations substantially deviate from what has already been observed to be effective.

Edited, Dec 13th 2013 4:51am by HitomeOfBismarck
#46 Dec 13 2013 at 4:12 AM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
Hairspray wrote:
I was reading a thread over on Reddit and it appears there are some major discrepancies in the usefulness of Dragoon in end-game content.

LINK TO REDDIT DISCUSSION

Quote:
Black Mage:

AoE Sleep

Lethargy (Slow and heavy instant range cast)

Best AoE damage in the game

Apocatastasis (grants elemental resistance to a party member)

Can take Eye for an Eye from ACN for a barrier if needed

Can take Virus from ACN for a debuff to the bosses/mobs stats

Can also heal themselves if they know an attack is about to land (eg. Titan falling from the sky, preload Physick on someone who is already low or yourself) ALTHOUGH IT IS VERY WEAK.

EDIT: Freeze (AoE Bind at a specified location)



This was written by someone who doesn't play the black mage job. While Aoe sleep and lethargy are important, they dont work on bosses (or most of their adds). Virus in the scope of things is really not too potent, the timer is long, and the effect is short. Apocatastasis is only for 1 person, not for the party. The timer is really long. Psysick is only really good for yourself. Only heals for 250-350. If blm is subbing as healer, it is game over. Aoe damage is ok, especially Blizzard II, we have that going for us becuase we dont have to target. And Freeze doesnt do damage and again, doesnt work on bosses (or most of their adds). People arent worried about dps to help them get to the boss. They worry about dps on the boss. So in that regard, I dont believe that dragoon hits any less hard than I do. I routinely party up with Happy Slappy and his non-ifrit spear and he does a pretty hefty amount of damage as dragoon.


This was also written by someone who doesn't play the BLM Job (sarcasm), or hasn't fully explored all of the content using just a BLM. I'm curious, but have you tried all the things you listed on EVERY Boss/Fight? I know Freeze works in turn 1 3 4 and 5, so does Blizz II (I used coil since it's currently the highest lvl content). Almost everything you listed here worked very well on Turn 5. Not sure if trolling, but a virus before a Death Sentence matters (Even a Mountain Buster for those who aren't over geared). Its timer is short because how potent the effect is (STR DEX INT MND reduced by 15%). On a boss' stats, that's a lot. It's recast is long enough so a BLM and 2 healers can rotate so there is a virus up for any major attack. Lethargy worked wonders for the Dreadknights that spawn during Twintania, and anyone with experience knows that any amount of movement speed reduction at the right moment helps if you happen to be too close. Don't know why, but my Physicks heal for 430-470. Ok Aoe dmg? Yea, 2600 on Flare isn't "OK." Fire starter III > SC Flare > Convert > Fire I > Flare > Fire starter III makes my epeen smile. Just a normal flare without crit does 1700 on Twintania but would hit the conflagration for more . I dunno, but I doubt other jobs have that ability to hit multiple targets for that dmg. When you reach certain stat lvls, Blizz II does 400-600 and you never run out of mp while the cast buffer shortens the recast timer. I'd consider that dmg slightly above ok. Apocatastasis comes in handy for me if both healers have to be in conflagration making the tank go in as well. I throw it on him in hopes that he may take less dmg from that fire dot.

Don't really have anything against you, but you trivialized many things. I feel like you have yet to push your limits with BLM. There is a situation for every ability. I'm uncertain if you believe that you should have to use an ability during every encounter, but turn 5 humbled the **** out of me, and showed me how much I needed to know. There is still much for me to improve on as well.

I do think that you are right on the fact that DRG doesn't hit any less. It boils down to rotation, and the flow of battle. I parsed a 295 for #1 on Twintania and I can fully admit that it was because I was never targeted by Hatch. I was given free reign to just cast. Our monk however, who was keeping up with the #1 spot got targeted 3 times in a row. So while the OP maybe just looking at abilities, they're not evaluating how they're used during encounters fully, and what types of encounters there are. DRG will shine during certain fights, and have to approach differently on others.
#47 Dec 13 2013 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
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As much as people like to believe that melee is important for Coil, Melee is the least popular choice for getting invite into Coil. Yes, that happens to PUG because a Static would not be a Static if people don't get invite for playing melee...

You don't believe that luck would push BRD dps over BLM or MNK, especially in T4? Don't forget that Venomous Shot can be applied to multiple target, hence it is no. target x times more likely to crit, more likely to get Bloodletter, more like to get free DPS. Barrage extra hit will also crit if the first hit crit. BRD DPS can be said that it is dependent on luck, you could do very very well off compared to others or you could do adequately, because unlike other job BRD crit benefit don't stop at the crit... BRD nerf has nothing to do with PvP, because PvP use an entirely different set of skills for all jobs. Yes they have similar effect, but they are built entirely for PvP not PvE. Main reason is

Quote:
Greetings, everyone!

Based on fan translations of the interview Famitsu held with Yoshi-P recently, there seems to be a misconception about what was said regarding bard adjustments in 2.1. Contrary to the rumor that an ability would be taken away from bard and moved to a different job, bard will not be losing a main ability.

This confusion appears to stem from Yoshi-P comparing party formations to a puzzle and the jobs being the puzzle pieces. The goal for balancing the game is to make sure that no single job could complete the puzzle alone, and he feels that bard was given too many pieces of the puzzle.

Tl;dr: BRD can do everything other DPS specialise in, except for LB3.

You main a BLM, you don't understand how Melee are treated. FYI I main a DRG and I can outdamage BRD and BLM on T1-T4 easily, if I get invited into a party that is. Melee? Sorry no pt.



Edited, Dec 13th 2013 6:27am by Khornette

Edited, Dec 13th 2013 6:27am by Khornette
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#48 Dec 13 2013 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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You say you can out DPS a BLM on turn 4 'easily' which automatically tells me this conversation is useless.

You do melee DPS a great disservice.

GDLYL wrote:
This was also written by someone who doesn't play the BLM Job (sarcasm), or hasn't fully explored all of the content using just a BLM. I'm curious, but have you tried all the things you listed on EVERY Boss/Fight? I know Freeze works in turn 1 3 4 and 5, so does Blizz II (I used coil since it's currently the highest lvl content). Almost everything you listed here worked very well on Turn 5. Not sure if trolling, but a virus before a Death Sentence matters (Even a Mountain Buster for those who aren't over geared). Its timer is short because how potent the effect is (STR DEX INT MND reduced by 15%). On a boss' stats, that's a lot. It's recast is long enough so a BLM and 2 healers can rotate so there is a virus up for any major attack. Lethargy worked wonders for the Dreadknights that spawn during Twintania, and anyone with experience knows that any amount of movement speed reduction at the right moment helps if you happen to be too close. Don't know why, but my Physicks heal for 430-470. Ok Aoe dmg? Yea, 2600 on Flare isn't "OK." Fire starter III > SC Flare > Convert > Fire I > Flare > Fire starter III makes my epeen smile. Just a normal flare without crit does 1700 on Twintania but would hit the conflagration for more . I dunno, but I doubt other jobs have that ability to hit multiple targets for that dmg. When you reach certain stat lvls, Blizz II does 400-600 and you never run out of mp while the cast buffer shortens the recast timer. I'd consider that dmg slightly above ok. Apocatastasis comes in handy for me if both healers have to be in conflagration making the tank go in as well. I throw it on him in hopes that he may take less dmg from that fire dot.

Don't really have anything against you, but you trivialized many things. I feel like you have yet to push your limits with BLM. There is a situation for every ability. I'm uncertain if you believe that you should have to use an ability during every encounter, but turn 5 humbled the **** out of me, and showed me how much I needed to know. There is still much for me to improve on as well.

I do think that you are right on the fact that DRG doesn't hit any less. It boils down to rotation, and the flow of battle. I parsed a 295 for #1 on Twintania and I can fully admit that it was because I was never targeted by Hatch. I was given free reign to just cast. Our monk however, who was keeping up with the #1 spot got targeted 3 times in a row. So while the OP maybe just looking at abilities, they're not evaluating how they're used during encounters fully, and what types of encounters there are. DRG will shine during certain fights, and have to approach differently on others.


He wrote that almost a month ago. I mean, yeah it has incorrect information in it but I'm pretty sure he knows it. I've had to update several posts in the BLM forums after learning some things over the course of a month.

I'm sure some of us have written things a month ago that aren't accurate now due to how time works.

Khornette wrote:
I need no rotation that headploded me if my Full Thrust can crit 870 end-game boss/Primal. Also I get to survive the longest.

/thread

You don't need to follow a rotation, every single class end-game need to play by intuition, or you're dead.


Then again, no matter how much time passes, certain statements are always 100% wrong even at the time they were written.


I don't think we expected this to be necrobumped a month later.

Edited, Dec 13th 2013 7:59am by HitomeOfBismarck
#49 Dec 13 2013 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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For those of you with Turn 4-5 experience, can you succeed with multiple setups?

Say, one player on each job, would that work?

Is there any job that you CANNOT win if you don't have one in your party?

Is there a job that is considered a wasted slot?

Edited, Dec 13th 2013 9:33am by Gnu
#50 Dec 13 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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The only setup I haven't seen on turn 4 is 4 magic DPS. The knights do reflect magic back so it would be interesting to see it done. Other than that, it can be done with just about every setup. No job is required to win.

Turn 5 is beautiful because it actually works in such a way that having one of each job works very well. Until people figure out the 'optimal' setup when they outgear it (probably 1 tank, a bunch of DPS, two healers), this is what I've found to work really well:

MT - PLD
OT - WAR who can also DPS (arguable about two PLDs due to the CD on WAR stun: nice to have for twister/dreadknight stage)
Healers - WHM and SCH; can be done with two WHMs but two SCHs may be pushing it; definitely works best with one of each
DPS #1 - Melee; very nice sustained DPS; LB2 or 3 for the last phase is great; DRG buffs BRD damage which is great for the conflags as well; MNK has some crazy burst for the conflags; both can use stuns to help out the warrior in the twister/dreadknight phase
DPS #2 - BLM; overall very nice DPS but definitely not as controlled as the other classes; can provide virus/eye, apoc, and our AoE LB; BLMs can take care of themselves pretty well with manawall and manaward; lethargy for dreadknights is great
DPS #3 - SMN; very crazy sustained DPS; great for battle res on twister phase when your healers might not be able to reach someone; great for having an extra pet available to eat a fireball should someone die; miasma for dreadknights stacked with lethargy and stuns is great; they also provide eye and improved virus which is useful for aetheric profusion (otherwise SCH covers it)
DPS #4 - BRD; foe requiem, ballad, and good sustained DPS with controlled CDs for bursts on conflag; shadowbind could be used on dreadknights but breaks on hit so it would only be used to stall

The above would be my ideal setup. Our kill was with MNK BRD BLM SMN.

I have seen it done with the following DPS compositions:

MNK, DRG, BLM, and a BRD
2 MNKs, a BRD, and a SMN
2 BRDs, a BLM, and a SMN
2 SMNs, a MNK, and a BRD
2 BLMs, 2 BRDs

I want to see: two WARs (probably post patch) and two DRGs.

Key job for winning? Currently, PLD

I'm not aware of any other snake strategies that don't involve killing them without AoE LB so you potentially need an AoE LB2 or LB3 from BLM or SMN.

Nice to have? SCH for lustrate, WAR OT for added DPS (most people have used two PLDs by this point), and BRD for songs.

Edited, Dec 13th 2013 1:33pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#51 Dec 13 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
The only setup I haven't seen on turn 4 is 4 magic DPS. The knights do reflect magic back so it would be interesting to see it done. Other than that, it can be done with just about every setup. No job is required to win.

Turn 5 is beautiful because it actually works in such a way that having one of each job works very well. Until people figure out the 'optimal' setup when they outgear it (probably 1 tank, a bunch of DPS, two healers), this is what I've found to work really well:

MT - PLD
OT - WAR who can also DPS (arguable about two PLDs due to the CD on WAR stun: nice to have for twister/dreadknight stage)
Healers - WHM and SCH; can be done with two WHMs but two SCHs may be pushing it; definitely works best with one of each
DPS #1 - Melee; very nice sustained DPS; LB2 or 3 for the last phase is great; DRG buffs BRD damage which is great for the conflags as well; MNK has some crazy burst for the conflags; both can use stuns to help out the warrior in the twister/dreadknight phase
DPS #2 - BLM; overall very nice DPS but definitely not as controlled as the other classes; can provide virus/eye, apoc, and our AoE LB; BLMs can take care of themselves pretty well with manawall and manaward; lethargy for dreadknights is great
DPS #3 - SMN; very crazy sustained DPS; great for battle res on twister phase when your healers might not be able to reach someone; great for having an extra pet available to eat a fireball should someone die; miasma for dreadknights stacked with lethargy and stuns is great; they also provide eye and improved virus which is useful for aetheric profusion (otherwise SCH covers it)
DPS #4 - BRD; foe requiem, ballad, and good sustained DPS with controlled CDs for bursts on conflag; shadowbind could be used on dreadknights but breaks on hit so it would only be used to stall

The above would be my ideal setup. Our kill was with MNK BRD BLM SMN.

I have seen it done with the following DPS compositions:

MNK, DRG, BLM, and a BRD
2 MNKs, a BRD, and a SMN
2 BRDs, a BLM, and a SMN
2 SMNs, a MNK, and a BRD
2 BLMs, 2 BRDs

I want to see: two WARs (probably post patch) and two DRGs.

Key job for winning? Currently, PLD

I'm not aware of any other snake strategies that don't involve killing them without AoE LB so you potentially need an AoE LB3 from BLM or SMN.

Nice to have? SCH for lustrate, WAR OT for added DPS (most people have used two PLDs by this point), and BRD for songs.

Edited, Dec 13th 2013 11:49am by HitomeOfBismarck


Pretty much agreed 100%. I do Turn 5 with 2 SCH. I tried the one tank thing and found it possible to get to twister no problem. I think that if you do it that way, that you need to have no melee dps. Lack of stun makes them get bopped since you can't always ensure that they're 2nd on threat list. I excites me to play around with that set up :).

As for your response to me. I agree, I didn't notice the date, just the time of the last post. I usually hold of on commenting on JOBs. I think all of us should know by now from past FFXI experience how things get over looked. Each encounter makes us see a JOB differently, and since content changes, we'd hope that our JOB experiences do too. I can't say I find any job significantly weaker, except that PLD has an edge over WAR that makes them ideal.
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