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This kind of behavior from a level 50 tank? Seriously?Follow

#52 Sep 12 2013 at 1:36 AM Rating: Default
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Player a healer and having played a tank in other games I am still surprised by the stupidity of some people.

I am level 30 now and up until now I've had 1 or 2 really good tanks, had several dps that didn't understand why you attack the same target as your tank. Why stealing aggro isn't "cool" or "bada$$".
#53 Sep 12 2013 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
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It isn't just tanks. It is any role. Ever ran into a healer that spams medica until their mp runs out? Yeah first try being a dps instead of healer and I run into that one. Real nice.

Then there was the Arcanist with tank pet and trying to heal through dungeon even though it wasn't needed. Not to mention over pulling mobs and nearly getting everyone killed.

It isn't a tank issue, it is just a player issue. This is all very standard problems with random dungeon finders and is not going to stop anytime soon. Level 50 or not, players find ways to leech off of others to level in two days, or just did Fate Grinds. By the time they make it into a dungeon, they have no clue what they are doing or care. They just keep going until it works. If there is an issue, do try and talk to the 'bad player' and point out a flaw.

If they refuse to speak or change their playstyle even with the tips, which happens a lot, then pray we get a request to kick at some point. I hate it just as much as the next person and it is really frustrating trying to tolerate people like that for a full hour. But until we get a kick option, there is little to do other than try very hard to make them work.
#54 Sep 12 2013 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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PlanckZero wrote:
I just had to leave three level 50 dungeons in a row


enough said. next thread
#55 Sep 12 2013 at 5:34 AM Rating: Good
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The Secret World had an elegant solution for informing players that they're not ready for the hard mode dungeons. All classes had to pass a solo test to qualify for the harder content. If you can't pass the tanking, dps or healing quest, it simply wouldn't let you progress to the hard mode for all dungeons.
#56 Sep 12 2013 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
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LucasNox wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Don't expect a PS3 player to use a whole bunch of marks though. Maybe just one mark for what they're currently attacking. They're much more limited in button space.



One of my good friends tanks on a PS3, he marks every mob (1,2,3) plus ones that need to be CC and he does it quite effectively, so I really doubt the problem is them being a PS3 player, more likely they are just lazy or not that smart to begin with.


I'm not saying it's impossible - I use a 360 controller on PC and I use marks at all times. I just wouldn't expect it from random folk, because things are crammed on the crossbars.

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 2:29pm by LucasNox


You don't need to put anything on the cross hotbar to mark. Simply target the enemy and hit X/Square (360/PS3 controller respectively) then mark, pick symbol/number; done, next... I can mark a 4 or 5 mob group in about 4 or 5 seconds. If the party can't wait that long, they don't need to be ******** when things go wrong.
#57 Sep 12 2013 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
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Ok now, I don't want to be THAT GUY. But I've done the first couple of dungeons problem free. I don't use markers. I've basically been holding hate on everything by spamming overpower aoe and occasionally switching targets to pull more hate on mobs that I'm starting to lose hate on. That way, my dds can attack whatever they want since I'm overpower aoe spamming the whole group anyways.

However, I see a flaw in my methods coming up when mages start getting sleep spells. What am I gonna DO? Also, please judge me. I think it's pretty apparent from this thread that I'm doing it wrong.
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#58 Sep 12 2013 at 6:32 AM Rating: Good
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klooste8 wrote:
Ok now, I don't want to be THAT GUY. But I've done the first couple of dungeons problem free. I don't use markers. I've basically been holding hate on everything by spamming overpower aoe and occasionally switching targets to pull more hate on mobs that I'm starting to lose hate on. That way, my dds can attack whatever they want since I'm overpower aoe spamming the whole group anyways.

However, I see a flaw in my methods coming up when mages start getting sleep spells. What am I gonna DO? Also, please judge me. I think it's pretty apparent from this thread that I'm doing it wrong.


I wouldn't say you are doing it wrong, because, according to you, it's working. With that said, don't expect that to be a viable solution throughout the whole game. You will have to be adaptable. There is no 'sure way' to do anything. (After all, it would become pretty bland, were that the case). Once you get to the stage where mobs can be controlled, you should have a few more tools to make you more adaptable. You would have to be careful, not only for yourself, but for other party members, to not gather the group near any sleeped mobs, as anyone using AoE will wake them.

I'm not very familiar with Marauder strategies, as I only have that class at 20, but the generals are the same. The only group member you should be battling for hate is the healer. By allowing everyone to attack just whatever is disaster waiting to happen in later stages of the game. Mark, focus and conquer. Although not required in the beginning parts of the game, the sooner you start to practice it, the sooner you will become efficient with it for when it will be needed. Don't wait until you have to learn it to learn it. People will have expected you to already have at that point. When people are attacking different mobs, it becomes very inefficient, some of the reasons being, but not limited to:

Each individual mob takes longer to kill, thus allowing them to inflict more damage to the party during their life cycles. This, in turn, requires the healer to heal more, thus pulling more hate from the tank.

Not only are you trying to keep your healer safe and alive, but also battling your other party members for hate, which wastes resources and cooldowns that could be better used to actually eliminate the threat. Also, if they do manage to pull a mob from you, the healer is going to have to spam heals on them much more than they would you (as you are a tank and designed to take hits more effectively) which is more unwanted hate focused on the healer.

In the event something unexpected would happen, you are less likely to be able to react the way you need to, due to micromanging everyones hate, as well as your own.

In short, Hate management is a responsibility of the entire party, not just the tanks. The best tank in the world can't save an unorganized party, and vise verse with the other roles. Trying to solo in a group doesn't help anyone. Good luck. :)
#59 Sep 12 2013 at 7:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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You can't incorporate a fast, soloable and easy leveling curve and expect player levels to have any sort of meaning or correlation with group play ability. As it is, a level 50 player has no guarantee to be capable or understanding of their role in a non-solo environment when it's entirely possible, and often more efficient, to progress to level cap 100% solo.

Force group play styles and dynamics earlier into the leveling curve, or just accept that 1-49 is nothing but a glorified tutorial and a level 50 is just beginning to understand their role in a party. You really can't have both, as more than 10 years of this modern MMORPG progression design has shown us.
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#60 Sep 12 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
It's really acceptable for the DD to do the marking. Or the healer. Caster first is all you need to know to mark for a majority of encounters.

If you mark the mobs as DD generally the tank will follow your lead, easy way to help a player new to the tank role.


This 100X THIS!

The best group I have ever been in was with a WHM that was using her downtime to mark up the next group. It was amazing! I would look up, see the next group all marked and ready to go so I was all like "Roger that, DIE #1!" At first I was a little put off by it because "He took my job!" (South Park ref) but I soon got over it when I noticed the pace we were keeping.

I think we need to get out of the mentality that it is up to the tank to mark targets. We typically have enough on our plates and the biggest deterrent for me personally is all the DPS that can't wait 5 seconds while I mark. I get tired of even trying when I stop just short of the next group, barely get #1 up and there goes the ******* DRG... and it's always a DRG. I say if you want your targets marked, mark em your **** self!
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#61 Sep 12 2013 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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And here in lies the problem.

Really, at the end of the day, just spend a minute at the beginning of combat. Go over what your expectations are, make agreements on role responsibilities, and go have fun.

Most of the time, we I bounce into DF, it's buff and run, no one even responds to a hello...

If the healer wants to mark, discuss it. If the DD wants to mark, again discuss. If the tank wants people to /assist, so be it. But at least agree with your strat and run with it. It may mean that people need to spend a minute or two getting reconfigured, but for the love of chicken spend a minute and talk to your party.
#62 Sep 12 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
And here in lies the problem.

Really, at the end of the day, just spend a minute at the beginning of combat. Go over what your expectations are, make agreements on role responsibilities, and go have fun.

Most of the time, we I bounce into DF, it's buff and run, no one even responds to a hello...

If the healer wants to mark, discuss it. If the DD wants to mark, again discuss. If the tank wants people to /assist, so be it. But at least agree with your strat and run with it. It may mean that people need to spend a minute or two getting reconfigured, but for the love of chicken spend a minute and talk to your party.


BOLD MINE:

Herein lie the problem. Most groups don't want to wait a few minutes while people get their **** together. For the DPS at least, they have been in the queue for over 30mins and don't care to wait around while people figure it out. They just need to DANCE and your preacher father isn't going to stop them! It is an accomplishment to get someone to even say hello in a DF group, much less wax philosophical about the Art of War.
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#63 Sep 12 2013 at 8:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
And here in lies the problem.

Really, at the end of the day, just spend a minute at the beginning of combat. Go over what your expectations are, make agreements on role responsibilities, and go have fun.

Most of the time, we I bounce into DF, it's buff and run, no one even responds to a hello...

If the healer wants to mark, discuss it. If the DD wants to mark, again discuss. If the tank wants people to /assist, so be it. But at least agree with your strat and run with it. It may mean that people need to spend a minute or two getting reconfigured, but for the love of chicken spend a minute and talk to your party.


BOLD MINE:

Herein lie the problem. Most groups don't want to wait a few minutes while people get their sh*t together. For the DPS at least, they have been in the queue for over 30mins and don't care to wait around while people figure it out. They just need to DANCE and your preacher father isn't going to stop them! It is an accomplishment to get someone to even say hello in a DF group, much less wax philosophical about the Art of War.


You just popped visions of John Lithgow and Kevin Bacon in my head.

.... but then I remember John was in Dexter.... so my vison had a bathtub full of blood to.

.... thanks >.<
#64 Sep 12 2013 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I dont understand why tanks have to mark mobs when all you have to do is pay attention to the health bars? People don't even bother to watch hate bars. Not that far in yet, but there are alot more problems then tanks not marking mobs. When would I even have time to? When you have to worry about someone else rushing in and trying to pull a group.
#65 Sep 12 2013 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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PlanckZero wrote:
By the time someone hits level 50 they should have some slightest clue as to how to play their job right?

Apparently leveling as a tank in this game is so ridiculously easy that some people can't be bothered to learn some of the simpler mechanics. I just had to leave three level 50 dungeons in a row because each tank was so entirely clueless it was a wonder they had made it out of their very first dungeon.

Marking an enemy should be a simple matter right? Each and every time none of these people could be bothered to toss out even a single mark on their focused target. I ended up having to assume the initial target they pulled each time was their focus and half of the time they would suddenly switch targets a few seconds in and the mob starts running after whichever DD had started to build the most hate.

That brings us into afk tanking. In what world is this considered even slightly appropriate? Each time I or another DD would end up on the wrong mob and pull hate the tank wouldn't budge an inch. At first I figure that they're just focused on the other mob but then when that one too goes running after someone each tank was left staring off into space while everyone else is kiting around the room or spamming cures for the next minute or two until the tank realized there was nothing in front of them anymore.

SE seriously needs to look at the balance of this game and how easily tank jobs are getting pushed along that people can get as far as they have without having a clue or even really caring about how they're playing.



Maybe..MAYBE, its not entirely the Tanks fault. Not marking the enemy? ok that one is his fault, kind of. A lot of the times when i tank, people dont care if i mark or not, while others would prefer it; heck i have even been told to not mark things in a couple of groups (but that went really well surprisingly) When I do mark targets, its not at all for my benefit for the other people.

If they dont mark targets, and you would like them to mark atleast their primary target. ASK THEM, if you expect them to then its your fault.

Also, why they heck are you rushing into the fight before letting them build hate for a few seconds? I hate it when DD are too gung ho and start attacking right away. Its easier on the tanks to get some hate and then have the DD start attacking, Dont make it a tug of war of hate if you dont need to. You might not know it, but you can change the HP bars of the enemies to show only the ones that are not at 100% HP, I found that when I am DD'ing i can use that as an indicator for when tanks dont mark.

To be completely honest, if i am running a dungeon and a DD gets hate and then starts to run around like an idiot, instead of taking a couple of hits, i am more likely to let them die. not because I want to, but because i am too focused on keeping the hate of the other targets, and my main one. if you couldnt have bothered to pay attention to what you and i were attacking (which is really what a DD only needs to do, save for boss fights) then i cant be bothered to run around after you and the mob to try and get the hate you built up on your own, down.


I think at level 50 you should be a good enough DD to recognize what to attack, and how much hate your pulling. the tank might have some faults sure, but you are exacerbating it.
#66 Sep 12 2013 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe after 30+ levels of marking and no one following them they got tired of wasting their time?

Every run is the same... they all target their own enemy to kill and it is always not the one I marked. Once group was able to kill the marked one last several times.
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#67Llester, Posted: Sep 12 2013 at 8:59 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) the game forces party play before level 20. you can't avoid it unless you don't care about the main story, so it's really the player's fault if they suck at 50.
#68 Sep 12 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
Whales wrote:
You can't incorporate a fast, soloable and easy leveling curve and expect player levels to have any sort of meaning or correlation with group play ability. As it is, a level 50 player has no guarantee to be capable or understanding of their role in a non-solo environment when it's entirely possible, and often more efficient, to progress to level cap 100% solo.

Force group play styles and dynamics earlier into the leveling curve, or just accept that 1-49 is nothing but a glorified tutorial and a level 50 is just beginning to understand their role in a party. You really can't have both, as more than 10 years of this modern MMORPG progression design has shown us.


the game forces party play before level 20. you can't avoid it unless you don't care about the main story, so it's really the player's fault if they suck at 50.


It most certainly does not, especially on the second class and beyond. In fact I could level a tank right now to 50 without ever participating in or using group mechanics. The most optimal and efficient path for hitting 'endgame' supports this, and thus what the majority of players are going to do, as a decade of such modern MMORPG game design has shown us.

I don't like it any more than you, but if you want players to understand their class as part of the leveling achievement, you're going to have to make the leveling process a bit more of a challenge and group requirement starting at the early levels.

You can't have easy, fast, solo levels AND comprehensive class grouping understanding simply by level achievement alone.
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#69 Sep 12 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Default
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Whales wrote:
Llester wrote:
Whales wrote:
You can't incorporate a fast, soloable and easy leveling curve and expect player levels to have any sort of meaning or correlation with group play ability. As it is, a level 50 player has no guarantee to be capable or understanding of their role in a non-solo environment when it's entirely possible, and often more efficient, to progress to level cap 100% solo.

Force group play styles and dynamics earlier into the leveling curve, or just accept that 1-49 is nothing but a glorified tutorial and a level 50 is just beginning to understand their role in a party. You really can't have both, as more than 10 years of this modern MMORPG progression design has shown us.


the game forces party play before level 20. you can't avoid it unless you don't care about the main story, so it's really the player's fault if they suck at 50.


It most certainly does not, especially on the second class and beyond. In fact I could level a tank right now to 50 without ever participating in or using group mechanics. The most optimal and efficient path for hitting 'endgame' supports this, and thus what the majority of players are going to do, as a decade of such modern MMORPG game design has shown us.

I don't like it any more than you, but if you want players to understand their class as part of the leveling achievement, you're going to have to make the leveling process a bit more of a challenge and group requirement starting at the early levels.

You can't have easy, fast, solo levels AND comprehensive class grouping understanding simply by level achievement alone.


it does for anyone doing the main story which is most people. regardless, its silly to blame the game design for people not wanting to be good at their roles.
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#70 Sep 12 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Only on the first job though. You only have to do the main story dungeons exactly once. Any subsequent jobs can just fate surf the entire way to 50.
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#71 Sep 12 2013 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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klooste8 wrote:
Ok now, I don't want to be THAT GUY. But I've done the first couple of dungeons problem free. I don't use markers. I've basically been holding hate on everything by spamming overpower aoe and occasionally switching targets to pull more hate on mobs that I'm starting to lose hate on. That way, my dds can attack whatever they want since I'm overpower aoe spamming the whole group anyways.

However, I see a flaw in my methods coming up when mages start getting sleep spells. What am I gonna DO? Also, please judge me. I think it's pretty apparent from this thread that I'm doing it wrong.


It's not that you can't hold threat, it just basic game mechanics and is much more stressful on the party to do it the other way.

If all DD are attacking one target then it dies quicker obviously, then that is one less mob doing damage to the tank so the healer isn't having to spam cures to keep him up and allows some type of mana conservation. If DD's are attacking all different mobs then it takes longer to kill them, longer dungeon runs, etc. Also, as WAR we are very dependent on TP so there is a good chance if it goes on to long you run out of TP then lose your primary AOE ability.

Lower level dungeons, not that big of a deal. But on higher level dungeons where CC is required and even the trash hits like a Mack truck then you are going to run into problems. Best to help instruct every party you are in (in a nice way) when it is not required than running into the problem when it is needed and getting people rage quitting the group cause people are dying on trash mobs.

I don't use controller so I am not sure how limited on space you guys are but I am telling you, macros are your friend in this scenario.
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#72 Sep 12 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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it does for anyone doing the main story which is most people. regardless, its silly to blame the game design for people not wanting to be good at their roles.

Fates are too good, and certain high level fates are being exploited to milk thousands of exp. It is not silly to blame game design for a problem that owes itself at least half due to game design.
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#73 Sep 12 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Default
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I main tank for our FC and I never mark. Even with a SMN with Relic and a MNK with relic dpsing different mobs I rarely lose threat as a paladin. Letting the DPS AoE and multi-DoT kills mobs faster and makes it easier. You don't need to mark at all if you know what you're doing, it's just a way to cover a short coming in your tanking ability. If they pull threat I just stun the mob so it'll die before it actually has a chance to hit them.
#74 Sep 12 2013 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Only on the first job though. You only have to do the main story dungeons exactly once. Any subsequent jobs can just fate surf the entire way to 50.


sure, but that's entirely a player decision. The game gives us options. Maybe some players need more exp incentive from dungeons. For me, just the thought of spamming FATEs endlessly makes me want to run dungeons all the more.
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#75 Sep 12 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
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it does for anyone doing the main story which is most people. regardless, its silly to blame the game design for people not wanting to be good at their roles.

Fates are too good, and certain high level fates are being exploited to milk thousands of exp. It is not silly to blame game design for a problem that owes itself at least half due to game design.


more than thousands. and i still don't feel the need to narrow my gameplay to only FATEs. I mean, i see the other side of this, but I just don't see the fun in pursuing the most efficient exp/hour at the cost of fun. i'm well aware that i'm in the minority on this.

i also don't really see the problem with people leveling exclusively through fates, which means I also don't really care about every once in awhile running into a person who sucks at their job.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 3:10pm by Llester
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#76 Sep 12 2013 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
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After clearing story mode garuda, and knowing that the hard mode primal battles will be harder.. I sure as **** don't want to deal with having someone in my party who got their class up to 50 through only FATEs.
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