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Your processor is the problemFollow

#27 Sep 12 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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On the upside, the new motherboard can handle a Crossfire - the older one could not.

So if I see another 7770 on the cheap this year (since the card is officially a year old now) I'll grab a second one and see how two of em perform together.
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#28 Sep 12 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
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It costs roughly $339 just for the cpu alone.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116901


Dusk's rules to live by #534930891: never buy CPUs from other-than-microcenter.

http://www.microcenter.com/product/413248/Core_i7_4770K_35GHz_Socket_LGA_1150_Boxed_Processor

:)


random rule of mine: never listen to people who talk about themselves in the third person.


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#29 Sep 12 2013 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
On the upside, the new motherboard can handle a Crossfire - the older one could not.

You'll see very little increase in the benchmark because you'll just be more CPU-Bound.

I should clarify the 'Feeding a monster' analogue to best illustrate why:

Your CPU feeds your GPU with just a few bowls, which have to be emptied before they can be filled fresh again. There are some fun details about VSync and Triple Buffering that this analogue is also used to explain, but I digress.

Your GPU is damned hungry, but it can only eat so fast. If you put a small bowl in front of it, it empties it in half the time of a bowl twice the size. Resolution is your bowl: It takes even a monster GPU a little longer to empty a large bowl than a small one.

SLI/Crossfire is like having two mouths to feed, but they have to eat from the same bowl. They empty bowls comparatively faster, but refilling those bowls then becomes a problem. This is why SLI/Crossfire only sees performance gains at large resolutions: Bigger bowls to eat.

Your CPU has a pump to fill the bowls. It can pump a given amount of food with other factors like memory and PCIe bandwidth being like the size of the nozzle. The pump is run off the same engine as other stuff like Physics though, so it can be starved for power at times. The CPU can be filling one bowl while the GPU is eating another, but there's still time involved for the CPU to grab and 'wash' and fill another bowl.

The bowls are simply frames. Bowls eaten being frames per second.

When you go to SLI/Crossfire you have two, three, or even four cards eating from the same bowl. Most people think this would double the number of bowls eaten, but their CPU can't pump that much. The cards are starving for more, especially when the bowls are too small, because the CPU doesn't have time to clean and fill even one bowl before they ask for another. When you run a larger resolution then, the CPU spends less time 'washing dishes' and more time filling the larger bowl.

At any rate, the thread title is misleading: Your processor is the problem if your resolution is too low, and the benchmarks run a hilariously low resolution on some settings.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 3:58pm by Raelix
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#30 Sep 12 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
DragonBourne wrote:
Catwho wrote:

- Both motherboards were gaming MSI "military grade" (whatever that means)


I believe that means if you are gaming and become the victim of a surprise bombing, while you will be obliterated, your motherboards will survive. :P


A friend of mine actually did have his Asus motherboard survive a fire. The plastic case was melted slag, but he managed to get the motherboard out of it and when he fired it up in a new case the motherboard, processor, RAM, and hard drive were still working.


I've always used Asus components and they've never failed. On topic, I did notice that when i upgraded my processor, the performance improved dramatically. which of course is to be expected, given the fail dual core that i had previously.
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#31 Sep 12 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
DragonBourne wrote:
Catwho wrote:

- Both motherboards were gaming MSI "military grade" (whatever that means)


I believe that means if you are gaming and become the victim of a surprise bombing, while you will be obliterated, your motherboards will survive. :P


A friend of mine actually did have his Asus motherboard survive a fire. The plastic case was melted slag, but he managed to get the motherboard out of it and when he fired it up in a new case the motherboard, processor, RAM, and hard drive were still working.


Long as the capacitors remain intact, it will survive.

Which is amazing because heat can make them expand and rupture.

Me want lol
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#32 Sep 12 2013 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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A couple rules of thumb:

1. Online games usually use much more CPU power than offline games
2. GPU has more effect when playing at high resolutions (typically >1080p) than it does at low resolutions

But, as always, the only way to see whether you will benefit from a certain upgrade is to check where the bottleneck is. Run a program (such as MSI Afterburner) and see what your GPU usage is in the game.

If it's pushing 99% all the time, that means your GPU is the bottleneck, and you will benefit by upgrading your GPU while barely getting any benefit by upgrading your CPU.

If your GPU usage is below 99%, you have a CPU bottleneck, and you will likely get better results by upgrading your CPU.

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#33 Sep 12 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:

Tonight I upgraded from a 2 year old AMD Phenom II x4 to a Core i7 4770K (necessitating a motherboard upgrade at the same time as well, of course.) All other bits of hardware in the system remained the same:


I also upgraded from a Phenom II x4 955 to a 4770K. :)

Prior to that, I upgraded from a GTX 460 to a GTX 660. Although the 660 is about 60% faster than the 460, I received little increase in FPS, as the 2-3 year old Phenom was holding me back.

Now with my 4770K running at 4.7Ghz, I'm glaring at my GTX 660 for becoming the huge bottleneck lol. Waiting next year for 800 series. :)

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#34 Sep 12 2013 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Nah, get the 780 while it's hot. 800 series is lining up to be incremental, like the 9 series to the glorious 8 series.

It's the Star Trek 'Even numbers are the awesome ones, but invert this once you restart the count' paradigm.
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#35 Sep 12 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Catwho wrote:
On the upside, the new motherboard can handle a Crossfire - the older one could not.

You'll see very little increase in the benchmark because you'll just be more CPU-Bound.

FWIW, the HD 7770 is significantly underpowered in a machine with an i7-4770k. The GPU is a generation behind mid-tier card, the CPU is one of the fastest consumer CPUs on the market. You've got a point about the resolution dependence, but even then, she'd see benefit from a GPU upgrade, though it's probably running well as-is.

A more balanced approach (for gaming in particular, at least) if you were buying both from scratch would be an i5-4670k and an HD 7950. Same cost together, just taking $100 out of the CPU and putting it into the GPU. The main difference is the lack of hyperthreading, which tends to be of little value in gaming.

Edited, Sep 12th 2013 8:48pm by bsphil
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#36 Sep 12 2013 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
On the upside, the new motherboard can handle a Crossfire - the older one could not.

So if I see another 7770 on the cheap this year (since the card is officially a year old now) I'll grab a second one and see how two of em perform together.


Not really worth it unless you're planning on running several monitor setups or using the second GPU for physics or boosting AA. I've heard that XIV looks great in surround, but the other benefits wouldn't work.

On their own, SLI and Xfire are roughly 20-30% increase in performance. Only worth it if you can get the second GPU for 20-30% of the price you paid for the first.
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#37 Sep 12 2013 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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The times where SLI/CFX are only 20-30% increase in performance are lonh over.
Of course it's not an 100% increase but in most you'll get 80-95% increase when conditions are right.
Game is demanding enough, CPU is fast enough and so on.
Even microstuttering is becoming better and better these days!
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#38 Sep 12 2013 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Auftragskiller wrote:
The times where SLI/CFX are only 20-30% increase in performance are lonh over.
Of course it's not an 100% increase but in most you'll get 80-95% increase when conditions are right.
Game is demanding enough, CPU is fast enough and so on.
Even microstuttering is becoming better and better these days!

[citation needed]

There are situations where SLI beats single GPU, but they're only where 2 GPUs are cheaper than the single GPU(cases like dual 670s vs a single 690). There are very few cases where adding a second GPU leads to +80% performance increase. You can run at lower settings to improve scaling(why are you buying 2 GPUs to run at medium-high settings?) or shifting the bottleneck from the CPU to the GPU(multiple monitor setups or incredibly high overclocks).

80-95% is by no means normal and by 'performance' I'm speaking about minimum and average FPS, just to be clear.

Edited, Sep 13th 2013 1:26am by FilthMcNasty
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#39 Sep 13 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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I have dual 1080p monitors, for the record.

A third one would be nice but my desk isn't big enough. Smiley: lol
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#40 Sep 13 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
Threx wrote:
Catwho wrote:

Tonight I upgraded from a 2 year old AMD Phenom II x4 to a Core i7 4770K (necessitating a motherboard upgrade at the same time as well, of course.) All other bits of hardware in the system remained the same:


I also upgraded from a Phenom II x4 955 to a 4770K. :)

Prior to that, I upgraded from a GTX 460 to a GTX 660. Although the 660 is about 60% faster than the 460, I received little increase in FPS, as the 2-3 year old Phenom was holding me back.

Now with my 4770K running at 4.7Ghz, I'm glaring at my GTX 660 for becoming the huge bottleneck lol. Waiting next year for 800 series. :)



I recently took the plunge and ordered one of the Korean 1440p monitors that uses the same panel as Apple Cinema Display.

I run a Sandybridge 2500K at 4.2 with no issues and, like you, a GTX 660.

Together they run FF14 at 1440p just fine but I decided to garb another 660 and go SLI instead of ditching it and paying more for a high end 7 series.

I can tell you that the 660's in SLI combined with the 2500K runs the game like butter in 1440 with very few tweaks.

When there's enough "evolution" in everything else to warrant a CPU upgrade I'll make that plunge but ATM everything I;ve seen has shown very little benefit (gamer wise) between the various generations of the "i" CPUs.

#41 Sep 13 2013 at 10:46 AM Rating: Default
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since we're talking about processors.. how well would this one work then:

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#42 Sep 13 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Without Crossfire wrote:
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So that's more about 68% better performance with Crossfire for FFXIV.
And that's without even having official support from AMD right now and using 2 old Radeon HD 5850 that don't scale nearly as good as the newer ones. I'm using the SWOTR profile from AMD to get Crossfire to work by the way. So it isn't even optimised for FFXIV.


@Duomaxwellxx
Should be good for a laptop but then it depends on the GFX Card if it is playable.







Edited, Sep 13th 2013 7:48pm by Auftragskiller

Edited, Sep 13th 2013 8:02pm by Auftragskiller
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#43 Sep 13 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Great.

I have a first generation intel i7 950, and it screams. The game puts it at 10-15% tops, and I run nvidia surround on 3 28" monitors at 5760x1200.

Right now, there is a problem with SLI and ffxiv. The performance boost is 10-15% at best, and since I'm spanned across 3 monitors, i actually ahve to lower my settings from max on one monitor with one video card, to low/medium with 2 video cards and 3 monitors. I did not have this problem wtih 1.0, I could completely max everything on surround with my 2 cards, now I'm playing low to mid level? Something is very broken.

HOpefully they'll fix it though.
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#44 Sep 13 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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I was lucky, just before this game was released some kid from craigslist put up his Computer for sale @ $600. Its a Core i5 4 core 3.4GHZ, 8GB RAM, Geforce GTX 660Ti. He also included a 20" HD montior which was a freaking steal. The computer is fairly new and im able to run XiV smooth and pretty on Max settings even during fates, not a lag yet. Perfect timing, glad I got it.
#45 Sep 13 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Auftragskiller wrote:
Without Crossfire wrote:
FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn-Benchmark (Charaktererschaffung)
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With Crossfire wrote:
FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn-Benchmark (Charaktererschaffung)
Bewertungszeit:13.09.2013 19:37:12
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Durchschnittliche Bildrate:90.585

Bewertung:Extrem hoch
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Bildschirmgröße: 1920x1200
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Grafikvoreinstellungen: Maximum


So that's more about 68% better performance with Crossfire for FFXIV.
And that's without even having official support from AMD right now and using 2 old Radeon HD 5850 that don't scale nearly as good as the newer ones. I'm using the SWOTR profile from AMD to get Crossfire to work by the way. So it isn't even optimised for FFXIV.


@Duomaxwellxx
Should be good for a laptop but then it depends on the GFX Card if it is playable.



my gfx card is gtx 780m which is the equivalent of a pc gtx 680 im sure my gfx is up to par



Edited, Sep 13th 2013 7:48pm by Auftragskiller

Edited, Sep 13th 2013 8:02pm by Auftragskiller

#46 Sep 13 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Raelix wrote:
Catwho wrote:
On the upside, the new motherboard can handle a Crossfire - the older one could not.

You'll see very little increase in the benchmark because you'll just be more CPU-Bound.

FWIW, the HD 7770 is significantly underpowered in a machine with an i7-4770k. The GPU is a generation behind mid-tier card, the CPU is one of the fastest consumer CPUs on the market. You've got a point about the resolution dependence, but even then, she'd see benefit from a GPU upgrade, though it's probably running well as-is.

Context was the benchmark, which ones 1024x768 at the Medium setting best I know. It could still be CPU bound at that resolution even with an i7 in a single threaded application, and SLI certainly would be.
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#47 Sep 13 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Raelix wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Raelix wrote:
Catwho wrote:
On the upside, the new motherboard can handle a Crossfire - the older one could not.

You'll see very little increase in the benchmark because you'll just be more CPU-Bound.

FWIW, the HD 7770 is significantly underpowered in a machine with an i7-4770k. The GPU is a generation behind mid-tier card, the CPU is one of the fastest consumer CPUs on the market. You've got a point about the resolution dependence, but even then, she'd see benefit from a GPU upgrade, though it's probably running well as-is.

Context was the benchmark, which ones 1024x768 at the Medium setting best I know. It could still be CPU bound at that resolution even with an i7 in a single threaded application, and SLI certainly would be.

Ahh sorry, that's a good point. The benchmark I downloaded a couple days ago doesn't even have a "medium" setting, and the default resolution is 1280x720.
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#48 Sep 13 2013 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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clanofthekestrel wrote:
When there's enough "evolution" in everything else to warrant a CPU upgrade I'll make that plunge but ATM everything I;ve seen has shown very little benefit (gamer wise) between the various generations of the "i" CPUs.

There generally isn't much difference. I was hoping that the coming generations would have higher FSB but they're mostly just smaller architecture, less heat, ect.

Auftragskiller wrote:
So that's more about 68% better performance with Crossfire for FFXIV.
And that's without even having official support from AMD right now and using 2 old Radeon HD 5850 that don't scale nearly as good as the newer ones. I'm using the SWOTR profile from AMD to get Crossfire to work by the way. So it isn't even optimised for FFXIV.

Are these your own personal benchmark scores? What processor are you using and what clocks is it running at?






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#49 Sep 13 2013 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes These are my personal scores.

System:
Core i7-950 @3.65ghz
24gb DDR3 1600 tripple Channel
2x Radeon 5850 1gb

Will do some tests with higher CPU clocks tomorrow.
Resolution was 1900x1200 at Max Settings
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#50 Sep 13 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd suggest doing testing with something more substantial like Heaven benchmark. Nothing against XIV, but it's kind of a joke. Something like Unigine's Heaven 4 on max settings is something that will actually stress your GPUs. That and the output also tracks your minimum FPS iirc.

I don't really call average FPS a real indicator of performance, especially when most benchmarks don't spend most of their time at a high load. For me at least, the most important indicator of performance is how your GPU(s) hold up when they're pushed to the limit. I don't really give a **** if I can get 130 FPS standing alone in a field. I'd feel much more satisfied knowing that I can maintain 50 FPS when rockets are leveling buildings, shells are tearing tanks to shreds and my screen is filled with so much shrapnel I literally duck in my chair Smiley: nod

Try running Heaven at stock clocks single GPU then Xfire and then try again at a stable overclock on the CPU.
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30 bucks is almost free

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#51 Oct 01 2013 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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So, I bought an HD7950 on sale the other day to replace my HD6850.

I play at 1680x1050 for now, and have the GPU overclocked to 1000Mhz core/1400Mhz mem. Powering this is still my i5 4670k @ 4.2 Ghz and 8 GB DDR3.

Even with a close to top-of-the-line processor, I still average around 50 FPS in the market areas in town, with the GPU usage close to 70%.

This game (as with most MMOs) is definitely CPU limited when large numbers of characters are on screen.

On a side note, the CPU usage peaks around 80% on a quad-core. SE did a pretty good job with the multithreading, it seems.

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 5:36pm by Pickins
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