You know...I originally edited my above post to retract some of the negativity in them and just discuss the issues. I had assumed I was debating with a mature individual but I see that isn't the case.
Let's play your game. You know? The one where you pick a post, debate with the user, then when the user corners you, you state to the user, "You clearly don't understand."
Maybe it was slightly exaggerated, but there wasn't a day that I logged into WoW that I didn't use something that either I or someone else crafted. There isn't an expansion that has gone by that hasn't presented crafters in WoW the chance to make money on goods and it's all possible because the game doesn't have the 'Jack of all trades, master of all' mentality.
Uh that's the point: It was an exaggeration. It was so exaggerated that it is comparable to the whining over an alleged 4 hour queue which is unlikely.
And yet, you can master all professions in WoW yet you refuse to ignore this fact. Since you can master all professions in WoW, we should see a huge problem in WoW's economy but..wait: there isn't one.
Furthermore, I hope you remember how things were in Vanilla's release. You don't? Let me give you a hint: what is FFXIV ARR's market doing right now?
Yet another point is the fact that, WHILE you can level all crafts to 50 in 14, most will not. You even handed me my own retort: you stated you had a bunch of alts (more than 6) which covers every single profession yet you seem to have only leveled the professions for achievement points. Let's be very explicit here: both WoW and FFXIV allow you the ability to master all crafts and professions but a majority of players do not do so in either game.
That's OK. If you wish to be ignorant to these simple facts, be my guest.
Again, you're still missing the point. The market is almost non-existent because of the ease with which people can obtain necessary items on their own. Why would I buy your materials when I can just go gather them myself? Not only am I getting the items cheaper, but I have the added incentive of leveling up a craft. There is no specialization. The market is homogenized and is suffering as a result of that.
The comparison doesn't carry over to WoW because of the gambit. You're forced to choose whether you want to roll a grip of alts to cap your professions or just farm and buy those for sale from others.
are missing the point. The market is non-existent because the game was just released. As people rushed their way to 50, they started to stick their quest rewards and crafting items up on the market. This has caused massive deflation of many raw crafting materials.
To see why your little explanation fails, it's easy to look at a section of the market that is actually productive (not suffering from deflation) yet contains MORE of the raw material than the crafting raw materials
Crystals are used by just about every craft. There will always be a demand for them. Furthermore, you often did NOT receive a majority of the crystals while leveling up. I think you maybe had one ice cluster at level 50 due to the storyline reward.
So here's the conclusion we can easily draw:
Crystals are a profitable market that are gathered and put on the market. They are not obtained through quests and monster drops do not supply a sufficient quantity.
The crystal market is currently filled to the brim with stacks of 999 for pages and yet these crystals are not 1 g, 2 g, or even 5 g: they're usually upwards of 35 g.
On the other hand, let's look at raw materials. You obtain quite a few of these from quest rewards, drops from monsters, dungeons, and quests. There are a ton of these items on the market yet they sell for 1~2 g a piece (vendor piece).
Two situations: both have a large supply yet one has low demand and the other has high demand. Why is that? Obviously because the ways you primarily obtain the crystals are not through the grind to 50 but from gathering.
Droves of people leveling to 50 = putting raw materials up on market that they've obtained from leveling -= massive deflation
This is pretty simple...one would think, again.
I have every class in WoW at or above 85 with the exception of a monk which is 67. 11 characters who between them have different combinations of professions. My main is the only character with cooking, fishing, archaeology and first aid maxed out. He also has (go figure) tailoring and enchanting. If not for the fact that I went all out completionist and got all of the patterns and formulae, I'd be running tailoring and engineering. Across the rest of the characters I have 4 other professions capped. They are engineering, mining, blacksmithing and jewelcrafting. The monk I was working on started herbalism just for the experience perk, but I don't and never really intended to cap it. That leaves herbalism, alchemy, skinning, leatherworking(which I might drop mining for) and inscription.
Great so you have no excuse to not have every profession capped. But wait: you seem to not have them all capped despite how easy it is to level a profession in WoW. Why is that? Because it's too much of a burden. Let's see..where can I find a parallel..oh! That's right. FFXIV has the same system. You have access to all the professions. Do you think the average person will level them all? I'll give you a hint: no.
The situation you described where everyone becomes self-sufficient by leveling all crafts is not only NOT
realistic but also shows you are incapable of applying basic logic to ascertain cause and effect relationships.
You also seem to have stuck yourself in a hole here. You didn't level every profession in WoW to max yet you had enough characters to do so. Why is that? Because it is too much of a hassle and you relied on the AH to get what you couldn't craft. Guess what you (and a majority of other players) will be doing in this game? No hint this time.
People don't level classes they may or may not enjoy playing in WoW just so they can save a few pieces of gold on an item or consumable. That effort is better spent either straight up farming or gathering materials to craft items you have the professions for to sell and then buy what you need. That's just common sense. If you're any kind of serious about your class, there are specific combinations of professions that you will benefit from more than if you just spread it all out.
Um...no they level classes because it allows them to bring another role to the raid or allows them to do PVP as another role. The benefit is that you can also choose two professions for this alt.
These 'benefits' you speak of are actually quite negligible and have been ever since Pandaria arrived. It really doesn't matter which craft you choose anymore: they all have benefits to every single class. When WAS the last time you played WoW, anyways?
If you had applied basic reading comprehension, you'd see that I've already paired the professions together as they normally are/or normally were in Vanilla.
The supply is there because everyone and their dog is capable of taking up any profession.
How does this even have any relevance to this discussion? You can do the same in FFXI. You can do the same in GW2. You can do the same in WoW. EVERYONE is capable of choosing any profession.
There is always a rush to cap in WoW when an expansion is released. The reason the influx of new is much smaller is that not everyone is capable of gathering or crafting said materials. This from a game where the server populations are multiples of what you find in XIV currently. Is this sinking in at all for you? I feel like a broken record, but you seem to be ignoring a pretty plain idea. I dunno if you just don't want to agree with me or what, but it's not a good look.
This is a common trend in your posts. Pick a person's post, debate with them, then claim they do not understand what you are talking about after you've misconstrued the point 7 different ways within 2 posts.
It won't work here I'm afraid. This is why we use quotes.
Everyone is capable of using an alt to gather materials even after the level cap has been raised. What do you do? Level the alt. In fact, this is what many people do to make money when new expansions are released in WoW. Yet you still insist that, since everyone is capable of gathering, that this must mean there is a larger quantity of raw material at the market.
You act like the market is flooded with high end gathering (botany) items when this just isn't the case at all. You do play 14, right? Check the market frequently? Notice the prices of the high end raw materials? Pretty stable since you STILL have to level another class to the point where you can obtain higher end items.
Again, not a problem due to the ability to choose every crafting or gathering profession: a problem due to droves of people leveling to 50 and devaluing items by selling their quest rewards and raw materials obtained from leveling on the market.
In other words, the economy has not had enough time to stabilize.
I'm beginning to think you've never actually played WoW given your comments thus far.
As for the bolded, I never said it would be that way forever. SE could increase the cap on professions but require that you specialize and pick only one or two to take beyond 50 similar to how it worked in FFXI. It's not too late to make the adjustments, but it's clearly not working now.
Yes clearly. Because you seem very knowledgeable when it comes to the ending spectrum of the crafts. If only you knew how much money crafters were making in the 40s and at 50, then you may have retracted this statement. But that's ok: I'll leave it here for now so that you won't forget this when I bump this in a month to demonstrate the fact that you're full of hot air.
FFXIV was released in the end of September, 2010. It is currently the end of September, 2013.
2013 - 2010 != 3 ? Not specific enough perhaps? Would you prefer that I amend my post to say that it's a few weeks short of 3 years?
No, but you should probably familiarize yourself with the difference between FFXIV and FFXIV: ARR.
You're pretty much equating FO3 to FO: NV. NV was definitely built using some of FO3's concepts but most intelligent
people would tell you that they are two different games.
Wait: I see the problem.
Yes, you can make 5 alts and spend the time and money leveling up, riding around to pick up recipes and actually skill up the crafts. Or, you could farm mats for your own craft, sell your goods and buy whatever you needed. You could farm cloth or gold and sell that. ****, you could farm dailies and afford materials for what you needed.
If you wasted the time leveling up all crafts to save a few buck, you're doinitwrong. The main selling point of professions in WoW is the ability to make the gear, or get the enhancements or buffs they provide; not saving a few gold at the cost of a metric asston of time. It takes days of playtime to level a class to cap. My best time from 1-85 speed run was just under 5 days. That's 120 hours spent leveling a class that could have been more productive simply farming on a class I already had capped. Nevermind the time to farm gold or mats to level the professions and the time necessary to level the professions themselves.
And you think I needed a math lesson
After playing WoW since vanilla up until Pandaria (skipping Cata), I can definitely tell you that this 'doingitwrong' crap doesn't really fly. Might want to pick another angle.
I don't make alts just for professions. You know what I make alts for? To play a different class. One would think this would seem obvious but I guess I have to spell things out for you. On each of those alts, it's very easy to select different professions.
Not only did I just level another class (that is probably a different role from my main class), but I also now have two other professions on it. Now not only can I bring a tank AND DPS to raids but I also have 4 professions to boot.
Helps to think outside the box, doesn't it? You could probably use a lot of things: a math lesson being the bare minimum.
FF14 is brilliant in the fact that I do NOT have to create an alt and do the same crap over again just because I want to try another class/job or switch my professions.
I wonder how recent it has been since you've leveled a profession in WoW. It takes maybe a day if you're going slow. 4 days if you farm all the materials. Not hard at all.
No one is suggesting that everyone will level every class, job and profession to cap. That said, it's not unreasonable that people would level all of the professions that support their favorite or most used classes.
I must've misread...
Think about it. In XIV you can raise all professions to cap.
[quote]If you can do everything on your own then you don't need anyone for anything at all. How does that bode for the economy?[/quote]
[quote]but the point I was making was that you were limited. Limited to capping only two professions outside cooking/fishing/firstaid. (read: everyone in 14 will level all crafts to 50 unlike WoW where you cannot do such a thing unless you have alts
[quote]The market is almost non-existent because of the ease with which people can obtain necessary items on their own. Why would I buy your materials when I can just go gather them myself? Not only am I getting the items cheaper, but I have the added incentive of leveling up a craft. There is no specialization. The market is homogenized and is suffering as a result of that. [/quote]
[quote]The supply is there because everyone and their dog is capable of taking up any profession.[/quote]
Oh wait no I didn't. Don't try back pedaling now.
I plan on playing paladin and warrior. You say you mainly level with dungeons and a side of FATEs. If you stockpile leves then crafting to cap is a joke. It won't take much for me to be able to completely support all my needs as far as professions go. I will have 0 need to buy or trade for materials to and from anyone to completely support myself. If you can't see how that impacts the economy then I really don't know what to say at this point. It's pretty obvious to most anyone who can think about it rationally.
Wait a minute. You plan? As in, you have no experience in this game and have been speaking from your rear this entire time.
So if I'm reading this correctly, you currently have no crafting experience, class/job experience, or any experience with FFXIV: ARR. This is all just your speculation?
Wait..it all makes sense now. The last sentence gave me a chuckle. Maybe apply that thought instead of suggesting it next time?
At this point, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing: going no where with your responses while trying to prove the point that having access to all crafts in 14 is 1) somehow different than having access to all professions through alts in WoW and 2) causes the downfall of the economy.
You're so far off the mark of my original comments that I highly recommend you go reread everything written so far before replying next time.
By the way: you may want to refute all of my points or not bother at all. I like how you glossed over things that destroyed many of your arguments. Here, I'll quote them again for you:
In reference to the value of crafting:
When you get to 50 and have to start your relic weapon quest, I think you'll find the same analogy applies. When you get to 50 and need materia melded into your gear (and relic weapon), you'll find that the same analogy applies.
In regards to the queue system and your inaccurate count of tanks:
The difference is that WoW did not initially have a queue system at all. The difference is that WoW did not have 5 tanking classes to begin with. Warrior, paladin, and druid. I can't even remember if druid tanking was acceptable back then. I don't think it was, actually, at level cap. So you're reduced to two tanks just as 11 and 14 are.
Do you think WoW dungeons were worth running over and over again when it was released? No. Actually, they provided the same things dungeons in FFXIV do now: better gear than quest rewards and some exp/social interaction.
Have no fear: I'll bookmark this, set a timer, and bump it within a month or two and we can discuss just how off mark you were then. Would be a great lesson in economics, debating, and urduinitrong. Edited, Sep 18th 2013 3:23am by HitomeOfBismarck