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#1 Sep 15 2013 at 8:28 PM Rating: Default
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So I decided to try healing because I got tired of waiting, and I got to 18 so far today, and having fun. I DF'ed for copperbell and I like turning on the allow join party in progress because I like to help trouble parties learn how to play.

So I get in and I'm the only person in the party, apparently the other remaining people were tired of waiting and left. Not only this, but gyges was left. I almost immediately pick up 3 more and easily down the boss and something pops that I could use.

So here's the ethical question: I passed on the item even though I could have used it for one of my other classes. I did this because I can re-queue in 30 seconds where other classes are not this way. Does anyone think this was excessive, or did I do the right thing?

Thanks!

-J
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#2 Sep 15 2013 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I really see not unethical about hitting "greed" when it's an option. The decision is then left to the roll of the randomizer. In this game, even hitting "need" on a piece for your class, when you already possess an equal or better item, is perfectly reasonable due to the materia system, allowing you to break down a spiritbound item and then equipping the item you just won.

But, certainly, if "greed" is an option and you greed it, I can't imagine how _that's_ any sort of dilemma, either morally, ethically, or metaphysically.
#3 Sep 15 2013 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've seen runs when a a great item falls to the ground only to vanish because everyone passed on it. If someone needs it, they should Need it. It's really up for grabs if not a single person claims a Need for it.
#4 Sep 15 2013 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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This problem reminds me a little of the Tragedy of the Commons, where a plentiful resource gets abused so badly that eventually no one can enjoy it, but ironically, you're also foolish not to take full advantage.

It's also a bit the Prisoner's Dilemma. Let's say you and 3 others you've never met are given a choice to vote Ally or Betray. If all 4 choose Ally, you all walk away with a million dollars. But if even one person picks Betray, anyone who voted Ally gets nothing. Furthermore, anyone who picks Betray gets $10,000 no matter how anyone else votes. Doing the right thing which benefits everyone would be to Ally completely, but almost always there's at least one Betray vote in this situation which leaves people doing the right thing with nothing.

The "right thing to do" in DF is, unfortunately, the "sucker bet" where you pass on an item you don't really need in the hopes that someone else in your group will find it useful, and hopefully the others will be understanding towards something you need. This is what I usually do because it eases my consciousness. But there's no guarantee that I'm letting passed items fall into hands that really needed it but just wanted to turn it in for a few paltry company seals, nor does it guarantee that I'll get a better chance at something I want. Because of that, it's reasonable to let your evil nature look out for number one because it's allowed and probably what everyone else is doing and you won't likely see these people again. But then again, I don't enjoy that behavior very much, so I don't bother. I'm there to have fun.

So, really, it just comes down to what you can live with.

Edited, Sep 15th 2013 11:22pm by Xoie
#5 Sep 15 2013 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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#6 Sep 15 2013 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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I say greed on anything you can unless if your party comes up with some type of distribution system. F
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#7 Sep 16 2013 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I keep getting called a lootwhore! and i feel bad cuz we work together for the whole dungeon then people get mad cuz the luck falls my way. i dont wanna wait around and discuss who gets what. I have no bad feelings to someone else if i do a run and get nuthing outta it, do you?



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#8 Sep 16 2013 at 12:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Take what you can, give nothing back.

Jack Sparrow =D I love that quote lol
#9 Sep 16 2013 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Kreytos wrote:

I have no bad feelings to someone else if i do a run and get nuthing outta it, do you?


Nope.
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#10 Sep 16 2013 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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It's not unethical to cast a lot on a piece you can genuinely use. Now that you have it, simply pass if it pops up again.
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#11 Sep 16 2013 at 2:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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There are different ways of looking at things, and it's quite situational.

As those who've played with me can attest, I pass... A LOT, on things I can Need, and Saleable things as well, but I also don't generally sit in the DF for completely random parties. Most of the people I play with are either FC, or IRL friends.

For PUG's... by all means Be mercenary if the group warrants it.

I say this as someone who would sell hideously expensive ships to both sides of a conflict in Eve, sometimes setting up deliveries for both sides in the same system, to encourage the loss of those ships as quickly as possible. "So... Can I offer you gentlemen another round? "

I'm a LOT nicer in XIV.

With people I have to deal with on a regular basis, I lot My class, or one multi class item, and if my gear is better, tell people to greed the same class stuff I don't care about. Once everyone has something, I'm willing to lot again.

It's like Free speech, It does not protect you from the results of, or reactions to that speech. It's quite legitimate to scoop every piece of loot you can get, in any situation, and I will never argue against the right to do so.

If someone "local" is prone to just scooping everything up, I don't say a **** thing against them, I'll Congratulate them every time, but it certainly makes a lasting impression when those people start asking for my assistance later.

Having lived through the worst greed of both XI, and Eve, there are some things more valuable in the grand scheme of things, and I've never shied from cutting off my own nose to spite my face.

Of course, most of my Non-gaming, Non family time is spent around heavily armed older Vets, retired police, and firearm safety instructors. Environments like that tend to demand a greater attention to fair play and sportsmanship, even when there is no "rulebook" authority to enforce such things.

When an 82 year old looks you in the eye and says he's killed with a spoon... You just can't be quite sure if he's crazy or reminiscing. Best to err on the side of prudence.

Strength to all, through strength for all.

Edited, Sep 16th 2013 4:11am by OtosanOokami
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#12 Sep 16 2013 at 2:30 AM Rating: Decent
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OtosanOokami wrote:
There are different ways of looking at things, and it's quite situational.

As those who've played with me can attest, I pass... A LOT, on things I can Need, and Saleable things as well, but I also don't generally sit in the DF for completely random parties. Most of the people I play with are either FC, or IRL friends.

For PUG's... by all means Be mercenary if the group warrants it.

I say this as someone who would sell hideously expensive ships to both sides of a conflict in Eve, sometimes setting up deliveries for both sides in the same system, to encourage the loss of those ships as quickly as possible. "So... Can I offer you gentlemen another round? "

I'm a LOT nicer in XIV.

With people I have to deal with on a regular basis, I lot My class, or one multi class item, and if my gear is better, tell people to greed the same class stuff I don't care about. Once everyone has something, I'm willing to lot again.

It's like Free speech, It does not protect you from the results of, or reactions to that speech. It's quite legitimate to scoop every piece of loot you can get, in any situation, and I will never argue against the right to do so.

If someone "local" is prone to just scooping everything up, I don't say a **** thing against them, I'll Congratulate them every time, but it certainly makes a lasting impression when those people start asking for my assistance later.

Having lived through the worst greed of both XI, and Eve, there are some things more valuable in the grand scheme of things, and I've never shied from cutting off my own nose to spite my face.

Of course, most of my Non-gaming, Non family time is spent around heavily armed older Vets, retired police, and firearm safety instructors. Environments like that tend to demand a greater attention to fair play and sportsmanship, even when there is no "rulebook" authority to enforce such things.

When an 82 year old looks you in the eye and says he's killed with a spoon... You just can't be quite sure if he's crazy or reminiscing. Best to err on the side of prudence.

Strength to all, through strength for all.

Edited, Sep 16th 2013 4:11am by OtosanOokami


I don't mean to gush, but this is a great post. I was highly entertained. Smiley: nod
#13 Sep 16 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Indulging in generosity is rarely the unethical thing to do. On the other hand, you shouldn't always completely ignore your own wants, needs, and desires.

In the situation you described, you put more effort into obtaining the loot than did the recipient of said loot, but passed the item based on the sympathetic presumption that the other player spent more time in the DF queue than you did. In my point of view, time spent in the DF queue and effort are two different things.

You did a good thing in a situation where there was no objective right or wrong action to take. This is commendable.

Was it excessive? Perhaps, but if so it was an excessively good thing to do. Rest well knowing you banked some good karma, and if you decide to lot the item next time in a similar scenario, do it guilt-free.

Edited, Sep 16th 2013 11:16am by Strummer
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#14 Sep 16 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Kreytos wrote:

I keep getting called a lootwhore! and i feel bad cuz we work together for the whole dungeon then people get mad cuz the luck falls my way. i dont wanna wait around and discuss who gets what. I have no bad feelings to someone else if i do a run and get nuthing outta it, do you?
_


A lootwhore is someone who is greedy, nothing more. If you're lotting on several pieces of gear after winning other gear, you'd qualify for the lootwhore title. It's ethical to share the wealth and not let mathematics alone determine etiquette.
#15 Sep 16 2013 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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In Duty Finder groups, I usually only "Need" things if they're better than what I have currently equipped, and I only "Greed" things if I have another class that can use the item. Groups I run with friends are quite different, though. Usually we just "Greed" everything unless we know someone really wants something.
#16 Sep 16 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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It depends on how I'm feeling that day, the makeup of the party, how we're doing overall, lots of things. If I'm doing a dungeon with linkshell people or good friends, I'm gonna pass more often than not. If I'm DF'ing a dungeon and the tank's tanking exceptionally well or the healer's going above and beyond and being awesome and we're just clicking really well, I'll probably exercise my right to pass on things I don't really need more of as well.

And if I'm DF'ing a dungeon and the tank can't hold hate or the healer's having problems keeping up or I'm just feeling particularly piqued for whatever reason, I'll need what I can and greed the rest. Sh*t's situational.
#17 Sep 18 2013 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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Is this a question of ethics or sentiment? In elementary ethics it is established that sentiment and reason are NOT interdependent. Ethics is a discipline that is construed of rationale, reason and logic. This usually applies to society and society doesn't just consist of friends, but other people. In ffxiv every player is a member of this virtual society.

So to answer the OP's question. To pass on an item another class you have can use is nonsensical. Firstly, "needing" an item takes precedence over "greeding" an item. Therefore, a need roll of 1 will essentially beat a greed roll of infinite value, so if you greed it, a class that is actively in the party which can immediately use the item will win the roll; they have the option to need it. If each member put an equivalent measure of effort the item is up for grabs. However, if the initial party members had stayed it is arguable you should have passed the item, because the applied effort would have been an inequality. This applies to a preexisting party you joined.

Moreover, passing an item for a friend that you wouldn't pass for anyone else is unethical, because your decision is influenced by sentiment. You didn't pass, because they are a member of society and deserved the item, but because you like them and this is irrational.

You should Greed an item if you have another class that can use it, because it won't take precedence over needing an item. The only time you ought to pass an item is if you don't have the class leveled that can use it, and another party member admits to having a class that can use it. That is reasonable behavior and is for the betterment of society. If you don't want to be a member of society go play a 1 player game(this is not an accusation).

#18 Sep 19 2013 at 5:08 AM Rating: Good
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If the system allows you to greed on an item then by all means do so. If someone else 'needs' it then they can need it, so your not really stealing anything from anyone. It is not really a ethics, or even morals question, but rather a question of etiquette, which is basically controlled by the need/greed system in place. If someone can need it and they don't, then you casting greed is perfectly fine.
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#19 Sep 19 2013 at 5:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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At those levels, anything goes. And the greed button is never unethical - since it is dependent on chance.
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