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Would you see free to play as a failure?Follow

#1 Sep 17 2013 at 3:30 AM Rating: Sub-Default
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I'm curious how players would react if this game did actually go free to play.

Would you see it as a complete failure and leave the game or see it as simply an inevitable part of an mmos life cycle these days and carry on playing?

Almost every mmo has gone free to play so there is at least a fair chance it might happen here too, I'm curious how it would be taken if it happened.
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#2 Sep 17 2013 at 4:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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i don`t remember any game that got better by going f2p

so...yeah
#3 Sep 17 2013 at 4:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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It would definitely be the end of content development and the beginning of vanities and xp potions, etc, so I can see nothing that would make me even want to stay around at that point.
#4 Sep 17 2013 at 5:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yoshi has already said they'd shut the game down before they went F2P.
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#5 Sep 17 2013 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
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garethrogue wrote:
Yoshi has already said they'd shut the game down before they went F2P.

And he is wise to feel that way.

There's no such thing as F2P. F2P is just a doorway for P2W: Pay to Win. Players in XIV and especially XI will not sit well with that at all.
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#6 Sep 17 2013 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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#7 Sep 17 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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How many F2P MMOs are popular in Japan?

In the end, it doesn't matter so much what the NA crowd thinks. If Japan considers F2P a sign of failure, it will never go F2P.
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#8 Sep 17 2013 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
Smiley: deadhorse


I'm collecting this one!
#9 Sep 17 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Smiley: deadhorse

This.. lmao
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#10 Sep 17 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
Smiley: deadhorse


LOL! LOVE IT.
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#11 Sep 17 2013 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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10+ years strong and FFXI is still P2P. Don't hold your breath if you expect FFXIV to go F2P.
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#12 Sep 17 2013 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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TwilightSkye wrote:


There's no such thing as F2P. F2P is just a doorway for P2W: Pay to Win. Players in XIV and especially XI will not sit well with that at all.


^^QFT

I don't need to say anymore, Twilight sums up my feelings on this issue.
#13 Sep 17 2013 at 10:22 AM Rating: Default
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garethrogue wrote:
Yoshi has already said they'd shut the game down before they went F2P.


I don't think he did, he outlined some posibilities of how he would offer a free to play system in a recent interview infact (if he was forced to do it).

Quote:
"We stuck with subscriptions because we wanted a stable amount of money to pay developers to develop patches on time. We didn't want to get into a situation where we couldn't afford to make a patch," he continued. "As a producer, I of course will be watching how the money flows and will evaluate the situation. If we had to change to a free to play model, we would probably offer a hybrid model with free to play servers and subscriptions servers, but it's not something we have planned right now."


Quote:
How many F2P MMOs are popular in Japan?

In the end, it doesn't matter so much what the NA crowd thinks. If Japan considers F2P a sign of failure, it will never go F2P.


I only know of one (there are probably more) PSO2 and it's very popular over there, I think it had close to 1 million players for Japan alone.



Edited, Sep 17th 2013 12:26pm by preludes
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#14 Sep 17 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I see nothing wrong with ftp, although i cant see 14 doing that, at least not for many many moons, if at all.

The only reason games like 11 isnt ftp is that there is a very small loyal base that will pay regardless of what they offer........ or dont offer, and really they couldnt sustain a ftp model, they have nothing to offer in the way of making money , ie mounts, wardrobes, potions, boosts etc

Ffxiv is already very well designed for that possibility one day...but will it happen? idk, and really idc, as long as its around in any model, then cool :)

A few games i have subbed for have turned ftp and i still enjoy them as much as before,if not more tbh.

Way too early to even mention ftp though,jumping the gun a tad. <--- understatement
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#15 Sep 17 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Default
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v1.0 was F2P for awhile, but for other reasons. The Japanese culture would not allow this I think. One, in Japan it would be seen as a failure and defacing there is a big deal... Two, FFXI had some of the strictest RMT countermeasures in an MMO, while everyone else is capitalizing on getting peeps to make micro transactions on F2P games.

I'd be SHOCKED if they went F2P, even if it turned in more revenue.
#16 Sep 17 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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TwilightSkye wrote:
garethrogue wrote:
Yoshi has already said they'd shut the game down before they went F2P.

And he is wise to feel that way.

There's no such thing as F2P. F2P is just a doorway for P2W: Pay to Win. Players in XIV and especially XI will not sit well with that at all.


That's the alarmist/uneducated view tbh. A good F2P model (of which there are many) is not P2W in the least. GW2, SWTOR, Rift are all good examples of models that do not offer much more than exp boosts and cosmetic upgrades/mounts. Doesn't mean I support it for this game at all, but it is getting tiresome to see people misunderstand how most F2P works nowadays. It's not the devil. It's just another business model that, when done well, is enjoyed by many players . Again, I'm not a fan for my own reasons, but my reasons are based in reality.
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#17 Sep 17 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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I mentioned a long time ago I wouldn't mind a F2P model that was based on time rather than in-game items (sort of like EVE), capping at a max of the formal sub rate. So if someone only wants to play a game for 5 hours a month, they could pay no money and get 5 hours free. If they go over 5 hours, they could buy another 5 hour chunk for $5, continuing in 5 hour chunks. At 20+ hours they've paid $15 and get unlimited access. Or subscribers could just prepay their $15 and not worry about keeping track of hours.

The only difference between the subscriber and F2P accounts would be nag messages once an hour of playtime reminding them how much time they have left in the account.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 12:51pm by Catwho
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#18 Sep 17 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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FFXIV looks like its well surpassed FFXI's peak. The only way I can see these going F2P is if they're on their last legs.
#19 Sep 17 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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I see the "free to play" model as less a payment option and more of a means of trickery. It depends on spur-of-the-moment purchases for worthless digital boosts and accessories. It faces players against certain time-demanding walls or instills desires for new equipment and then presents a means to circumvent or achieve these things through instant-gratification purchases. And then for a couple days you can feel like Mr. Hot Stuff for spending $15 on a digital trench-coat. Smiley: rolleyes

It's still a game, yes, but when it's working as intended it plays you more than you play it.
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#20 Sep 17 2013 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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F2P would be a failure IMO, and I would not want to see it.
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#21 Sep 17 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
I see the "free to play" model as less a payment option and more of a means of trickery. It depends on spur-of-the-moment purchases for worthless digital boosts and accessories. It faces players against certain time-demanding walls or instills desires for new equipment and then presents a means to circumvent or achieve these things through instant-gratification purchases. And then for a couple days you can feel like Mr. Hot Stuff for spending $15 on a digital trench-coat. Smiley: rolleyes

It's still a game, yes, but when it's working as intended it plays you more than you play it.


totally agree. its a pretty lame system, even when it's not "pay to win". lots of players still enjoy the model despite that. seems like some people in this thread are weirdly adverse to accepting that reality.


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#22 Sep 17 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allestra wrote:

The only reason games like 11 isnt ftp is that there is a very small loyal base that will pay regardless of what they offer........ or dont offer, and really they couldnt sustain a ftp model, they have nothing to offer in the way of making money , ie mounts, wardrobes, potions, boosts etc


Not only are most of us FFXI players loyal, we're also it seems more mature, and with that we have deeper pockets - I would definitely support FFXIV even if I barely played per month.

This is a stark difference to, a lot of younger people have the understandable stance that if they are paying a certain monthly fee for a game they expect to get that value of enjoyment out of it - in which case they can only play a certain number of these types of games, so they prefer F2P since they can try many games and choose the one they like the most.

It's as if they made the assumption that all MMO players are the same type of people I mentioned in the latter, but there are a lot of mature players in WoW that pay their subs and here in FFXIV too, we're a separate player base and we are what support P2P. In the recent past though I guess a lot of us were either in WoW, FFXI, took a stab at SWTOR or lurking like me waiting for FFXIV while playing some offline game in our busy lives.

A lot of people are betting that FFXIV goes F2P like every other MMO, because they put WoW as an anomaly, I would argue that FFXI and FFXIV are anomalies too.




Edited, Sep 17th 2013 4:08pm by SyniteonReflux
#23 Sep 17 2013 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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I would quit in a heartbeat if it went free to play
#24 Sep 17 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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garethrogue wrote:
Yoshi has already said they'd shut the game down before they went F2P.


Source?

That doesn't sound possible. If P2P failed for them, they would go F2P. Shutting it down is throwing money out the window.

Not saying they will go F2P, seems like P2P is working for them. But they would go F2P before they shut down altogether.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 4:34pm by LucasNox
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#25 Sep 17 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think you underestimate the importance of "saving face" in Asian culture - it's the reason why SQ sunk so much money into revamping FFXIV, to save face, in the face of investors and as a company.

With that said, shareholders may think otherwise since it is their money, I'm sure some investors would like to see F2P as better than nothing since money trumps all. But as a Japanese company I'm sure they'd hold out as long as possible, even consider another revamp, but it seems they don't need to because they do have competent people still, go Yoshi!

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 4:40pm by SyniteonReflux
#26 Sep 17 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
How many F2P MMOs are popular in Japan?

In the end, it doesn't matter so much what the NA crowd thinks. If Japan considers F2P a sign of failure, it will never go F2P.


There are some very popular F2P games in Japan right now, such as PSO2 (and some of the same ones that are popular in NA are also popular in Japan - Maple Story, Mabinogi, Aion, etc).

But I guess Japan has more interest in the P2P model than NA at this point, because on top of ARR, Dragon Quest X and Monster Hunter Frontier are quite popular subscription MMOs.

I don't think F2P is considered by Japanese gamers as "shameful" or anything though, if that's what you're thinking. PSO2 has been making tons of money.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 4:43pm by LucasNox
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#27 Sep 17 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Failure? Not necessarily.

My kind of game, though? No.

Do I think it will ever happen? No. If SE cared that much about F2P cash grabs, then FFXI would have gone F2P years ago. Like Yoshi-P has said, what separates SE/Blizzard from the rest is a lack of investors to need to pay off. This game will make enough of a profit to be successful for SE, and, like XI, will probably be a nice little cash cow for years to come.


In related news, I didn't realize that ESO is going to have a subscription, too.
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#28 Sep 17 2013 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Elder Scrolls Online and (to my surprise) WildStar are both going for the subscription model.

I kind of question whether WildStar will be successful on a subscription model because unlike ARR/ESO, I don't see any niche or group it really appeals to... but we'll see.
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#29 Sep 17 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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The biggest impact that I've seen with F2P is the difficulty with teaming with certain players. Sometimes they didn't purchase a particular dungeon or quest chain so it's tough get a team organized. Also IMHO some F2P games seem a little too pay to win or they sell you some potions which power level you quickly.

I don't believe I would continue playing a MMORPG that only offered F2P.
#30 Sep 17 2013 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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DDO is actually a really solid free-to-play game, that offers a lot for free, and actually has an hybrid cash shop and subscription model. I put a lot of money in it, too, but I don't feel like it ever ripped me off.

I don't think XIV is going to go free-to-play for a long time, but if they do, I'll probably keep playing and purchase stuff from time to time. Games I love get my money, it's as simple as that.
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#31 Sep 17 2013 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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If warhammer "the game every forgot about" ca still survive with a fluctuation if 50k to 100k subscribers you better believe this game will.
#32 Sep 17 2013 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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This game will never go F2P. It would be a massive sign of failure and as a Japanese company, SE would never accept such a loss of face. If this game ever did go F2P, which it wont, I would quit immediately.
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#33 Sep 17 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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As counterintuitive as it sounds, the day SE stops charging us to play is the day I stop playing.
#34 Sep 17 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Can you imagine how much RMT spam we will get if FF14 went F2P................ @_@, even now my blacklist already growing with soo many RMT spam
#35 Sep 17 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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This game already went Free To Play in its very beginning of the 1.0. We all saw the results? Game wiped harder than the stock markets during the Great Depression (For you US Citizens out there.). A Free To Play engine ruins all games. I personally hate them and I won't lie that my post right now has a boat load of bias. So I'm just going to cover the Free To Play aspect of this conversation and stay on topic.

Free To Play (Pay to Win) - The engine is garbage, utter garbage. This is where most MMO's fail. Because they have to set in restrictions against the players themselves on getting good things. The drop rates usually plummet, which sends the market skyrocketing into the millions. Way out of the reach of your average joe player. This also factors in the one thing that any company wants. Money. Free To Play models are notorious for placing Vanity Items (The "I want that.") in CS (Cash Shops) for those of you who don't know. These are what put players in that restricting bind of either doing one of the following.

A. Come out of their pocket with real money to buy in-game currency sponsered by the company via Cash Cards.
B. Save up enough money in-game to buy a code for choice A due to not having proper income in real life.
C. Cheat/Hack the game using bots/code generators.

Also even if you DO get your item it comes with another restriction. For instance we'll use Maplestory. Buying outfit. Let's use a more settled example here.

Say you pick choice A. from the list there and you want an outfit. The outfit cost I dunno, let's say 2,200 NX. You get the money, about to get the outfit and then you read...(Using an example here.) Holiday X-mas Outfit, 2,700 (7 Days). You kidding me? You have to RENT and outfit just to look cool? Oh but if you want the Permanant one it will cost you maybe almost 10k-12k NX. Which is almost about 20 to 40 dollars in real life.

This is why Free To Play (Pay to Win) Models never work, they drive the players to spend money on items they will never really look forward to using. Unlike in a Pay To Play situation you get your items and they're useful to you.

If XIV goes Free To Play I'm going right back to XI and I will never touch XIV again.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 6:40pm by ImmolatedHope
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#36 Sep 17 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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ImmolatedHope wrote:
This game already went Free To Play in its very beginning of the 1.0. We all saw the results?


No offense, but 1.0 sucked. I honestly wouldn't have played it if they offered to pay me. A game being horribly designed has absolutely nothing to do with it's payment model.

ImmolatedHope wrote:
Free To Play (Pay to Win)

Free to play and pay to win are not the same thing. There are games that are free to play that only offer cosmetic bonuses if you pay. There are games that actually give you an advantage over other players if you pay. There is a difference. If it doesn't give you an advantage over another player, it's not pay to win.

Look at League of Legends as an example. The only thing you have to pay money for is the skins. The skin does nothing at all to enhance your performance in the game.


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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#37 Sep 17 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Interestingly, Diablo III is ending its in game cash auction house.

Not quite the same as F2P but whatever reason they had to include it originally apparently is no longer panning out.

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#38 Sep 17 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
Interestingly, Diablo III is ending its in game cash auction house.

Not quite the same as F2P but whatever reason they had to include it originally apparently is no longer panning out.



That auction house never made sense to me. Like why even play the game when, if I have the cash, I can just go buy the item that some kid randomly got and is selling. And if I am going to do that, whats the point in even playing anymore. Guess that's why I've never understood people buying in game currency.

And trying to browse it, at least for me, was super annoying.

I know of a few people that got decent drops they ended up selling for around 100$, I know that's not much, but to me its a little ridiculous that someone would pay that much just for an in game item.
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#39 Sep 17 2013 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Interestingly, Diablo III is ending its in game cash auction house.

Not quite the same as F2P but whatever reason they had to include it originally apparently is no longer panning out.


People were just cutting out the middle-man(Blizzard) and it wasn't worth it to them anymore. I didn't get too deep into D3, but Blizzard basically had you set up an account with them. If you sold goods for real money, that money would go into your account and Blizz kept a portion of the money as an auction house tax.

People said ***** that' and just started selling through other avenues.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#40 Sep 17 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I read this article not long ago from the infamous Ethan Levy:

kotaku.com/i-am-not-a-cancer-on-the-game-industry-1208376438

Long story short, he is a game developer consultant who encourage companies to go F2P as it "caters to the masses" and it's essentially a short cut to a guaranteed investment.

That article also mentions that if you think otherwise you best alternative is to speak with your dollars, because the people who say that F2P sucks for the game industry are not generating enough demand for P2P (pay-to-play) to be a viable alternative.

Well I speak with my dollars, not only I'll support games like WOW or FFXIV I will stop supporting them if they go F2P, because it hurts the quality of the product, it becomes greens to reds to blues with incredibly step curves for those who actually play for free and hollow rewards for those who pay. Personally I don't like that kind of game.

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#41FilthMcNasty, Posted: Sep 17 2013 at 6:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that F2P inevitably leads to a lower quality product. The curve for what it takes to acquire experience, items, gear, ect. may be steeper, but if you look around almost any XIV board you'd see that the majority are disappointed by the lack of challenge and/or commitment required to enjoy the game.
#42 Sep 17 2013 at 6:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that F2P inevitably leads to a lower quality product. The curve for what it takes to acquire experience, items, gear, ect. may be steeper, but if you look around almost any XIV board you'd see that the majority are disappointed by the lack of challenge and/or commitment required to enjoy the game.


People want a steep curve to set long-term goals. Not a steep curve you opt out of for $10 per equipment slot.
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#43 Sep 17 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that F2P inevitably leads to a lower quality product. The curve for what it takes to acquire experience, items, gear, ect. may be steeper, but if you look around almost any XIV board you'd see that the majority are disappointed by the lack of challenge and/or commitment required to enjoy the game.


People want a steep curve to set long-term goals. Not a steep curve you opt out of for $10 per equipment slot.


Content that is designed to promote players to create long-term goals can be completely independent of the payment model.

I just find it odd that people will pay the premium when it's tacked on to a collector's edition or a subscription plan, but paying for it on their own terms is unacceptable. I've tried to make sense of that, but I can't.
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30 bucks is almost free

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#44 Sep 17 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would say a vast majority of developers use the "lets go f2p" as a band aid to a broken game. They do that rather than fixing whats wrong to bring people back.

Its pretty much a money grad hair mary pass.

If anyone hasn't noticed...this game and the devs are about their IP's legacy. Any other developer would have just shut down FFXIV or turned it into a cash shop casino rather than shutting it down for a few years and remaking it.

They don't care as much about making billions off the game and care more about making a good game fitting of the FF name. Obviously if no one plays they would probably shut it down eventually...but that doesn't seem anywhere near the case right now.

I would worry if content doesn't come out for the game, they have a fantastic foundation, now they need to really get to work expanding on that.

Oh and people love wishing the f2p death on games...its the only way they can enjoy the fruits of someone elses labor without paying for it XD
#45 Sep 17 2013 at 7:00 PM Rating: Default
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Toyototoyo wrote:
Can you imagine how much RMT spam we will get if FF14 went F2P................ @_@, even now my blacklist already growing with soo many RMT spam


Sorry to quote you, but I feel its important for others to understand the mythology of the so-called "free to play" MMOs out there. No one, for "free", is hosting servers, paying a development staff, support, etc for "free." (No such thing as a free lunch right?)
While F2P MMOs may have some RMT, the point to F2P games is so the vendor can get the revenue that RMTs would... Many F2P game bank on putting RMT out of business and offer RMT (if you will) from the vendor. Sure you could spend, idk 12 game hours getting that magic sword in a F2P MMO, or pay the vendor $12 to get it on the spot.

Last I checked, F2P MMOs are pulling more money than P2P, but SE, or Japan I general, will not accept this. Just look at their iphone games; $20 for a iOS game, really? That foreign to many of us on the west, but I personally agree with them (and I'm the minority there =)

I hope they stay p2p, but show me a successful p2p MMO w/o a healthy RMT community(and we know SEs stance on this)... Sad but true folks...

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 9:04pm by thatguy9927
#46 Sep 17 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Yup. A game that's good & popular enough should probably be P2P. I'll play some F2P games though. It may even make more sense for someone like me to play more F2P games. I'm very laid back and don't take these games seriously. I couldn't care less about being competitive and all that. They're just something for me to do to kill time. So F2P is great for allowing me to try some games I wouldn't have bothered with if they charged. Though, like I said, I expect the very best mmos out there to be charging.
#47 Sep 17 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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1) The horse was beaten to death before he could find its free lunch.
2) In Soviet Russia, horses play free games. Sorry guys, but Comrade Stalin is dead.
3) In Capitalist America, horses will be beaten or starved to death if it considers the idea of free stuff.

(I am not sure I am making sense - may be I am reading too much absurdist humour)
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#48 Sep 18 2013 at 5:44 AM Rating: Good
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I forgot to share my experiences with LoTRO when I briefly stopped by at the start of this year. I was shocked to see what they were offering in the "Pay Store" for that game in particular with the crafting section.

* At level-1, you can purchase a crafting multi-tool which is pretty much equivalent to endgame crafting tools. This pretty much killed the crafting market for making tools and it gives paying customers early access to top of the line tools.

* You can buy universal crafting resource box which will let you use it to craft anything within your current tier. You don't need to go out to the fields to gather up different resources to work on leveling your crafter. The same universal crafting resource box can be used by any crafting class. I do believe that the crafted item is untradeable.

* You can purchase recipe packs for your entire crafting tier instead of hunting for them or buying from other players.

Have cash? You too can quickly max out your crafter as long as you keep feeding the pay store.
#49 Sep 18 2013 at 5:56 AM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
Smiley: deadhorse

+1

P.S. The dead horse can't speak, but if he could, i'd imagine him saying something like... "ENOUGH ALREADY!!"
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#50 Sep 18 2013 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
Square back then also said they would never make a final fantasy on xbox 360 either and looked what happened. If the markets shift, so will Square.
#51 Sep 18 2013 at 6:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allestra wrote:
I see nothing wrong with ftp

I see nothing wrong with the File Transfer Protocals either. I mean, you need them for SSH with linux and other nifty web server stuff.

:p

Edited, Sep 18th 2013 8:08am by TwilightSkye
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