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3.5/5 - GameRevolutionFollow

#1 Sep 17 2013 at 3:43 AM Rating: Default
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Actually one of the few fair reviews I've seen, he points out the negatives as well as the positives in the game quite well without going overboard in either direction.

http://www.gamerevolution.com/review/final-fantasy-xiv-a-realm-reborn
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#2 Sep 17 2013 at 4:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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When he complains about quests, i`d love to see any MMO that doesn`t do that "kill x" or "fetch x" formula, its part of the genre by now lol, then he proceeds to complain about the /beckon and /soothe levequests, which are not your usual quests found in MMOs, so he really can't decide himself, does he hate the same old boring quest types or does he not?

basically he reduced the score by 1.5 due to quest complaints which he himself doesn't know what he likes or not, "convoluted" story, i guess thats opinion but story seemed pretty good to me and not really confusing and lastly "few original mechanics", in this case i'd have to agree, this game didn't really improve or create any unique mechanics, but that's fine imho.
#3 Sep 17 2013 at 4:49 AM Rating: Default
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Hah! Pretty accurate review. I see the author hasn't gotten past Titan yet, otherwise he would have mentioned all the nub nubs running around in the big boy dungeons thinking its a contained fate party or something. No offense. I know you guys are trying to have fun too...
#4 Sep 17 2013 at 5:26 AM Rating: Good
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MitArgento wrote:
When he complains about quests, i`d love to see any MMO that doesn`t do that "kill x" or "fetch x" formula, its part of the genre by now lol, then he proceeds to complain about the /beckon and /soothe levequests, which are not your usual quests found in MMOs, so he really can't decide himself, does he hate the same old boring quest types or does he not?


That isn't a case of indecisiveness. You can't just say that if someone is not a fan of the typical MMO kill and fetch quests, that they must be a fan of absolutely anything else, or else they are indecisive. This isn't a case of one or the other. It's easily possible to like, or in this case, dislike, either or both of them.
#5 Sep 17 2013 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just don't really know what everyone expects besides "fetch quests." What other options are there, really, that XIV doesn't also provide in some limited quantity?

At least the characters in ARR are pretty good about explaining why they want the thing they want.
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#6 Sep 17 2013 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I just don't really know what everyone expects besides "fetch quests." What other options are there, really, that XIV doesn't also provide in some limited quantity?

At least the characters in ARR are pretty good about explaining why they want the thing they want.

Kill X, Fetch Y, Go To Z, and Defend/Escort Q type quests aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Why people don't expect these in MMOs while simultaneously never offering alternatives, I don't know.

Either way, postin' in another preludes' "XIV sucks!" thread. My bad, "fair review because he dislikes the things I dislike!" thread.
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#7 Sep 17 2013 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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There are fetch quests? Quests that ask you to kill monsters? If I didn't know better I might think Final Fantasy XIV is an MMO.

Seriously, if you don't want MMO style features, perhaps don't play an MMO. You don't see me reviewing Halo and complaining I have to shoot things.
#8 Sep 17 2013 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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To be fair, one of the things we loved about the Metal Gear Solid series and stuff like it is that while shooting things happened (a lot), your goal was to try to sneak into wherever you were going undetected as long as you could, through any means necessary. (Like strapping on a cardboard box like a turtle.) It's a nice break in the monotony of RPG shooter fare and one reason I think the MGS franchise was so successful.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#9 Sep 17 2013 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
I love it that of the many reviews I have read so far, a 3.5/5 is the lowest score!

SE really hit a home run with ARR!

Edit: My two Nitpicks with this review:

1) this guy criticizes quests for being too simple, but then says the story is too complicated. Kind of strange... I could see him making one complaint or the other, but I would lean toward quests being too simple while the storyline is delightfully complex for the MMO genre (as any FF title should be).

2) this guy also hasn't realized that you don't need to accept every **** quest you encounter. Through FATES, leves, dungeons and the story, there is no reason to feel like this game is a quest grind. People need to shed their old methods of playing before blaming their boredom on the game, which has plenty of ways to level classes.

Otherwise, good review!

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 7:35am by Thayos
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#10 Sep 17 2013 at 8:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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MMOs are about sustainability. Initial reviews and scores are meaningless.
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#11 Sep 17 2013 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
I just don't really know what everyone expects besides "fetch quests." What other options are there, really, that XIV doesn't also provide in some limited quantity?

At least the characters in ARR are pretty good about explaining why they want the thing they want.


Elder Scrolls Online has supposedly found a way around this problem. I'm not sure how yet, bet they claim they have.
#12 Sep 17 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Default
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MitArgento wrote:
When he complains about quests, i`d love to see any MMO that doesn`t do that "kill x" or "fetch x" formula, its part of the genre by now lol, then he proceeds to complain about the /beckon and /soothe levequests, which are not your usual quests found in MMOs, so he really can't decide himself, does he hate the same old boring quest types or does he not?

basically he reduced the score by 1.5 due to quest complaints which he himself doesn't know what he likes or not, "convoluted" story, i guess thats opinion but story seemed pretty good to me and not really confusing and lastly "few original mechanics", in this case i'd have to agree, this game didn't really improve or create any unique mechanics, but that's fine imho.




FFXIs quests didnt seem like the arbitrary "kill 10 wolves" or "grab 5 sheepskin" quests. SUre there were SOME quests like that (sheepskin, quadav helms., bat fangs/wings) etc etc but i could count on my hands how many fit that description
#13 Sep 17 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I just don't really know what everyone expects besides "fetch quests." What other options are there, really, that XIV doesn't also provide in some limited quantity?

At least the characters in ARR are pretty good about explaining why they want the thing they want.

Kill X, Fetch Y, Go To Z, and Defend/Escort Q type quests aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Why people don't expect these in MMOs while simultaneously never offering alternatives, I don't know.

Either way, postin' in another preludes' "XIV sucks!" thread. My bad, "fair review because he dislikes the things I dislike!" thread.


I didn't put any spin on it at all, I simply posted a fair review. Simple as that. He is even going to update the score as he plays the endgame content more.

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#14 Sep 17 2013 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
It's actually a good review. It's unfortunate though that he chose to focus on quest grinding, rather than enjoy all the game has to offer as you level.

If he's only made it as far as the first dungeon though, then that would explain why he's done mostly just quests... the quick zip from levels 1 to 15 is kind of like a tutorial.
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#15 Sep 17 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I like quest grinding. It's too bad I'm gonna run out of them real soon.

I've always preferred Kill X mob over Collect X item.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 12:37pm by TwilightSkye
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#16 Sep 17 2013 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
MitArgento wrote:
When he complains about quests, i`d love to see any MMO that doesn`t do that "kill x" or "fetch x" formula, its part of the genre by now lol, then he proceeds to complain about the /beckon and /soothe levequests, which are not your usual quests found in MMOs, so he really can't decide himself, does he hate the same old boring quest types or does he not?

basically he reduced the score by 1.5 due to quest complaints which he himself doesn't know what he likes or not, "convoluted" story, i guess thats opinion but story seemed pretty good to me and not really confusing and lastly "few original mechanics", in this case i'd have to agree, this game didn't really improve or create any unique mechanics, but that's fine imho.




FFXIs quests didnt seem like the arbitrary "kill 10 wolves" or "grab 5 sheepskin" quests. SUre there were SOME quests like that (sheepskin, quadav helms., bat fangs/wings) etc etc but i could count on my hands how many fit that description


XI's quests and missions all go more like this:
- Watch movie in city
- Movie character gives you a vague hint to go to a dangerous area
- Go to dangerous area, watch movie
- Movie gives you an item or a key item, with a vague hint to go to another dangerous area
- Go to dangerous area with a party
- Fight a boss

There were some variations of course, but those tended to be more annoying than the "fighting a monster" ones. Near the end of Wings of the Goddess, you had to do a thing down in the Silvermines (instance dungeon area, hey what a concept) where you ran from NPC to NPC to explode bombs, but to prove you weren't a spy you had to have flee on. They'd re-apply flee each time you talked to one, but it only lasted for thirty seconds, which was just barely enough time to run to the next NPC. Except they also had true sight monsters running around. Fortunately, JA flee and powder boots both counted the same as NPC flee - but didn't get the bonus extension from NPCs.

What we ended up doing is having a THF run the entire circuit alone, standing around and waiting in between Flee and powder boot charges, while the other 5 people in the party just killed the mobs since they didn't respawn. Using this method was a guaranteed win, but was clearly a circumvention of what SE wanted us to do.

Developing creative non-fetch quests is easy. But developing such puzzle quests that are actually fun is incredibly difficult, and few games have ever pulled it off successfully.
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#17 Sep 17 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
MitArgento wrote:
When he complains about quests, i`d love to see any MMO that doesn`t do that "kill x" or "fetch x" formula, its part of the genre by now lol, then he proceeds to complain about the /beckon and /soothe levequests, which are not your usual quests found in MMOs, so he really can't decide himself, does he hate the same old boring quest types or does he not?

basically he reduced the score by 1.5 due to quest complaints which he himself doesn't know what he likes or not, "convoluted" story, i guess thats opinion but story seemed pretty good to me and not really confusing and lastly "few original mechanics", in this case i'd have to agree, this game didn't really improve or create any unique mechanics, but that's fine imho.

FFXIs quests didnt seem like the arbitrary "kill 10 wolves" or "grab 5 sheepskin" quests. SUre there were SOME quests like that (sheepskin, quadav helms., bat fangs/wings) etc etc but i could count on my hands how many fit that description

Instead of "kill 10 wolves", it was a quest to come back with an R/Ex item that dropped 10% of the time off of some wolves. Some times, you did it in less than 10 kills. Some times, more than 10 kills. Some times, far far far more than 10 kills (think Elshimo Marble).

And there were plenty of the "grab 5 sheepskin" variety too. I remember two starting quests in San d'Oria like that, one that asked for X number of rabbit hides and another that asked for Y number of bat wings.

Without doing a count, I would venture to guess that XIV is going to have far more distinct quests than XI, mainly due to the fact that questing is intended to be a major source of exp in XIV. And because there are so many more, they're going to come across as being less creative and original than the quests in XI.
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#18 Sep 17 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
I just don't really know what everyone expects besides "fetch quests." What other options are there, really, that XIV doesn't also provide in some limited quantity?

At least the characters in ARR are pretty good about explaining why they want the thing they want.


The problem is when people heard "quest progression" everyone figured since it's a Final Fantasy game the quest quality would have been much better than what it is, instead, it's exactly the same generic design in every other MMO since 2004. As for "having a reason", most people just skip through the dialog because let's face it, you want the exp and money/gear much more than you likely care for the dialog, I say you as in general.

Quality > Quantity but the fact they needed enough is why they went with the route every MMO does. It gets boring and old fast. "You killed big bad guy..NOW GO GIVE MY GUARDS PRETZELS! AND TEA!"

So it's not that someone is complaining BECAUSE it's that system, it's because....it's nothing new. SE could have done much, much more with it but the philosophy of this game's design is "end-game is all that matters" and even that is pretty mundane. Even though I was called "negative" and "troll" for saying countless times that SE will probably fall into the "nothing new trap", guess what trap they fell into?

They played it safe and it'll work for them for awhile, now they have to go above and beyond.



Edited, Sep 17th 2013 9:54am by Theonehio
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#19 Sep 17 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, the story is convoluted. And FFXIV is also one of the few MMORPGs that has one at all.
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#20 Sep 17 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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SE could have done much, much more with it...

Basically an example of what I noted in my last post. Something better could allegedly be done, but we're never told what. My question is, what is that exactly and why has no other MMO yet to do it?
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#21 Sep 17 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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basically he reduced the score by 1.5 due to quest complaints which he himself doesn't know what he likes or not, "convoluted" story

I guess the storyline becomes hard to follow around LV30, when all you do is skipping dialogues in order to save time. ^.^/
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#22 Sep 17 2013 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

Elder Scrolls Online has supposedly found a way around this problem. I'm not sure how yet, bet they claim they have.


Well, that's good to hear at least. I had read very early review on it months ago and they were worried as it all sounded too cookie cutter and not up to par with the Elder Scrolls console games. Hope they have innovated since then :)
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#23 Sep 17 2013 at 2:04 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
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SE could have done much, much more with it...

Basically an example of what I noted in my last post. Something better could allegedly be done, but we're never told what. My question is, what is that exactly and why has no other MMO yet to do it?


You're asking that question? Why is it every MMO decide to basically be a carbon copy of each other instead of standing on its own? For example people had HUGE hopes for Tera...then it came out and well surprise, aside the battle system everything is the exact same game as every other MMO before it.

It's not a question of why has no other MMO because it's obvious why none have. I'm sure you have enough common sense to realize SE chose to go the safest and done to death route instead of trying something else. I actually read every line of dialogue in this game quest wise, none of it justifies why you're doing x in the grand scheme of things.

You can only have so many iterations of:

"rid my x of y infestation, please."

Before you realize the quests are meaningless in the long run. So you're asking "what" they could have done? It's very simple, if they decide to go the defacto route they could have at least disguised it better instead of it being essentially the same set of quest lines from 2004.

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#24 Sep 17 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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That still doesn't say what a different route is.

"Do something new!" they cry.

But no one has any ideas that are really new or different any more that would work in an MMO. There are some genuinely different RPG game styles they still haven't tried (think of the Tactics 3D chessboard layout, or the Bioshock half FPS design) but which do not lend themselves to an MMORPG format at all.
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#25 Sep 17 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is a virtual plethora of ideas mmos or rpgs could take on doing with quests. Fresh would start out a novelty then be emulated by others so different is only different for so long. Unfortunately not only SE but every other rpg developer is guilty of choosing a format and sticking to a particular type for most of the game rather than drawing from all games before. I don't know if the reason is budget, time, or what factor draws this out but it is what is. Before I share my thoughts again on this subject I just want to point out that I do like ARR, I think the game will do good, it is not an SE exclusive problem, and I doubt it will get fixed. I don't like the quest format SE chose, but either deal with it or move on. This isn't the saga of one person, it's the saga of a whole playerbase.

1.Personality- Character is what makes each interaction feel different. You can do the same thing with various people. And every time it will be a little different. If every person or npc had the exact same personality, it would vary less.

2.Mood- The emotional and contextual feeling behind an activity. Different activities/quest evoke or different emotions. Fear, joy, mysterious, funny, sad,anger, resentment,etc. Quest that do not take you through an emotional roller coaster seem bland and don't feel too different.

3.Setting- Everywhere we look real life or game, we all do most of the same things daily. Yet experiences vary due to whether you are alone, with someone, or with a lot of people. Where and when it happens can also affect how impactful something is. Is it a trivial or mundane quest or is it something vital?

4.Introduction- How you learn about quest. Do you eavesdrop and pick up clues? Does an npc flat out ask you for something? Do you stumble upon a quest as it is happening? Do quest have multiple branches or one root? Do you have to coerce it? Is the quest objective evident like a natural disaster or do you read about it?

5.Mechanics- Does every quest require the same way to be dealt with? Why if everything has an opposite? Kill or save, sicken or heal, deliver or take-away, reward or steal, gather or scatter, fortify or sabotage, follow or escape, love or hate, distract or attract, escort or attack escort, brute force or wits, etc. People with weapons might seem to only focus on the outcome, but they each have different motives and ways to realize their goals.

6.Rewards- Why is the only reward currency, an item, or experience points? What about honor, social standing, love, friends, enemies, alliances, skill bonuses, etc.

I could go on but it will fall on deaf ears, I am not a game designer, and I'm sure game developers are busy enough as it is. The point I was trying to make is there are various shades you could add to each quest to differentiate them. Does every quest have to be unique? No, but most quest shouldn't fall into the 1-2 dimension category. The wheel doesn't have to be re-invented, but use every wheel that has been invented not just three brands or types.

I enjoy the game currently and will play until I no longer enjoy it. But please stop making it seem like SE is the only culprit here guilty of taking the easy route.







#26 Sep 17 2013 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you don't like quests im not sure you even have business in a mmorpg (even GW2 has them though delivered differently)

Its like going into a corridor shooter game and complaining about chest high walls for cover.

What did you expect?

Why are mmorpgs the only game type where people feel so vocal about changing their foundation into something different? Its kind of unfair for those who like mmorpgs and play them for a lot of the reasons that are not popular to hate on...like long progression...or "grind"...or the fact you cant beat them in a weekend.

Kind of wish people would leave mmorpgs alone in this sense...don't like grind, don't like quests...don't like it taking so long to finish? They got a game for that, its not a mmo rpg...its ok to not like mmorpgs....just wish more would realize that their source of dissatisfaction is in the fact that they are playing game types they don't like or no longer enjoy.

Same thing happened to me with sport games. I just got sick of them. I didn't moan and whine with a mega phone for persistant progression, skills to grind up, XP, quests, capture the flag and mini game...whatever...I just decided "hey not for me anymore" and moved on.

Why are mmorpgs treated so differently?
#27 Sep 17 2013 at 7:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I love Final Fantasy. I have played many of the single player games.
I played FFXI from 2005-2013 and now I'm enjoying this one.
I don't give a flying fig about the critics.
If it entertains me - and it does- that is all that matters.
I'm crafting my heart out right now and loving that I don't have the road blocks that FFXI has.
For instance my FFXI Fishing skill is still only level 25 after all those years!
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#28 Sep 17 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Default
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Since it's been brought up, I'm personally one who'd take FFXI quests over modern MMO questing. While I wouldn't go as far as saying that FFXI is the pinnacle of quest design, and I couldn't recall many of them in great detail, I do remember being taken to some very interesting parts of the world. I remember some of them having a progressing storyline. I remember them taking more than a minute and a half to complete, and at times feeling like I had actually completed a "quest."

Modern MMO "questing" is the complete opposite. They typically don't make you walk more than 20 seconds from the quest giver, involve about a minute or two of busy work, and you come back to grab your rewards and move onto the next thing. While it's be possible to complete many, many more quests in the same time period using this method, if you're the type who feels that walking outside to grab 3 of this or kill 4 of that isn't rewarding the first time, you aren't going to feel that it's rewarding the tenth time, or the hundredth time, or the thousandth time. I would rather do one quest that feels like an actual quest and leaves somewhat of a lasting impression than one hundred short quests that feel rather meaningless.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 11:03pm by Susanoh
#29 Sep 17 2013 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Strangerous wrote:
If you don't like quests im not sure you even have business in a mmorpg (even GW2 has them though delivered differently)

Its like going into a corridor shooter game and complaining about chest high walls for cover.

What did you expect?

Why are mmorpgs the only game type where people feel so vocal about changing their foundation into something different? Its kind of unfair for those who like mmorpgs and play them for a lot of the reasons that are not popular to hate on...like long progression...or "grind"...or the fact you cant beat them in a weekend.

Kind of wish people would leave mmorpgs alone in this sense...don't like grind, don't like quests...don't like it taking so long to finish? They got a game for that, its not a mmo rpg...its ok to not like mmorpgs....just wish more would realize that their source of dissatisfaction is in the fact that they are playing game types they don't like or no longer enjoy.

Same thing happened to me with sport games. I just got sick of them. I didn't moan and whine with a mega phone for persistant progression, skills to grind up, XP, quests, capture the flag and mini game...whatever...I just decided "hey not for me anymore" and moved on.

Why are mmorpgs treated so differently?


The reason that, in this case, MMOs are treated differently is because this type of questing is not fundamental to the genre. Today it is a widely used mechanic, but that doesn't mean that it's a mechanic that everyone will enjoy. If for example, you were to go to the theater and every film being shown were an immitation of Twilight, you might dislike the particular film you decide to see if you happen to not be a very big fan of films like this. But I don't know if it would be fair to say "Well, that's just what movies are! If you don't like films like this, you don't like movies!" I think it'd be more reasonable to instead say that you aren't a fan of what's out right now, not that you hate everything because you're not a fan of the current trend.

The type of questing being discussed here wasn't always the standard in MMOs, and it may not always remain that way. It could stick around a while longer, or in the years to come it could be looked at as archaic and people will laugh about the days that they used to run around from "!" to "!" grabbing quests, killing rabbits and picking strawberries. Either way, there is no reason that a person must favor a current trend simply because it happens to be popular at the time.

Edited, Sep 18th 2013 12:30am by Susanoh
#30 Sep 18 2013 at 2:40 AM Rating: Good
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Susanoh wrote:
Since it's been brought up, I'm personally one who'd take FFXI quests over modern MMO questing. While I wouldn't go as far as saying that FFXI is the pinnacle of quest design, and I couldn't recall many of them in great detail, I do remember being taken to some very interesting parts of the world. I remember some of them having a progressing storyline. I remember them taking more than a minute and a half to complete, and at times feeling like I had actually completed a "quest."

Modern MMO "questing" is the complete opposite. They typically don't make you walk more than 20 seconds from the quest giver, involve about a minute or two of busy work, and you come back to grab your rewards and move onto the next thing. While it's be possible to complete many, many more quests in the same time period using this method, if you're the type who feels that walking outside to grab 3 of this or kill 4 of that isn't rewarding the first time, you aren't going to feel that it's rewarding the tenth time, or the hundredth time, or the thousandth time. I would rather do one quest that feels like an actual quest and leaves somewhat of a lasting impression than one hundred short quests that feel rather meaningless.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 11:03pm by Susanoh


FFXI's questing isn't any different than FFXIV's; your nostalgia is tinting your glasses. Like was mentioned above you either killed X mob, brought in Y items from Z mobs, or went to go click on a random ??? in the middle nowhere.

No, you think it's a "better" question option because the story of why you're bothering to get those items or kill that monster is because the meaningless story is literally shoved down your throat in cutscenes. Take away all of those cutscenes, leave nothing but text boxes, and it's absolutely no different than anything everyone else has done.

The stories haven't gotten better or worse in FFXIV. You're simply able to skip them now, people don't bother to read the stories. If you need the sob story about why you need to go carry this woman's love the lunch he forgot (true FFXI quest! -- delivery, just like everyone else) spoonfed to you then you really didn't give a **** about the story aspect of a game anyway.

Nostalgia is a terrible thing.

~~~~

And Catwho I agree, absolutely no one ever gives any real alternatives to what we have for MMO questing. Sandpark made a huge wall of text about... nothing and provided absolutely zero alternatives. No one ever does.
#31 Sep 18 2013 at 4:40 AM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
FFXI's questing isn't any different than FFXIV's; your nostalgia is tinting your glasses. Like was mentioned above you either killed X mob, brought in Y items from Z mobs, or went to go click on a random ??? in the middle nowhere.

No, you think it's a "better" question option because the story of why you're bothering to get those items or kill that monster is because the meaningless story is literally shoved down your throat in cutscenes. Take away all of those cutscenes, leave nothing but text boxes, and it's absolutely no different than anything everyone else has done.

The stories haven't gotten better or worse in FFXIV. You're simply able to skip them now, people don't bother to read the stories. If you need the sob story about why you need to go carry this woman's love the lunch he forgot (true FFXI quest! -- delivery, just like everyone else) spoonfed to you then you really didn't give a **** about the story aspect of a game anyway.

Nostalgia is a terrible thing.


Nostalgia didn't cause to me imagine traveling through The Boyahda Tree to fight Agas with some friends in order to finish off the last quest in a line to obtain Sleepga II. It also can't be attributed to the time I entered the Maze of Shakrami to dig up my wyvern egg to unlock my first advanced job (and that was only one part, the quest spanned multiple zones), just to use a few examples.

I'd imagine you could retort by saying again, that you feel this is the same because it still involves killing, or it still involves items in some way. But the presentation is entirely different. And I do feel that presentation matters. If Sleepga II were instead granted in Rolanberry Fields by an NPC who said "Man, these bees are eating my crops! Get them!" and two minutes later I was a proud new owner of the scroll, I doubt I would even vaguely remember the experience one day later. Yet here I am, years later, able to somewhat recall the actual quest.

And yes, I am fully aware that there are some quests, especially in starting zones, where an NPC might say "bring me bat wings!" These were never considered by anyone I know to be a significant part of the game, and they obviously aren't the type of quest that I am talking about here.
#32 Sep 18 2013 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
And Catwho I agree, absolutely no one ever gives any real alternatives to what we have for MMO questing. Sandpark made a huge wall of text about... nothing and provided absolutely zero alternatives. No one ever does.
Unsurprisingly, the implied alternative is simply no questing and just leveling through grinding, as brought up on the official forums the past million times. "Your quests suck" => "it was so much better when we killed the same mob over and over ad nauseum".

The quest model hasn't changed in close to 20 years because at the base you're doing something for someone else (BTW, based on official press releases and video demos, ESO's "different" quest model seems to be the thing from Oblivion/Skyrim; you run into stuff in the world and it triggers a quest or objective). I personally liked how setting was established through quests, though at times did feel a certain amount of hopelessness. If you did the Coerthas questlines you know what I'm talking about. I do wish more memorable and recurring characters had been introduced along the way. For every Thancred and Nanamo there should have been a Hildibrand or two.
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#33 Sep 18 2013 at 4:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Susanoh wrote:
I'd imagine you could retort by saying again, that you feel this is the same because it still involves killing, or it still involves items in some way. But the presentation is entirely different. And I do feel that presentation matters. If Sleepga II were instead granted in Rolanberry Fields by an NPC who said "Man, these bees are eating my crops! Get them!" and two minutes later I was a proud new owner of the scroll, I doubt I would even vaguely remember the experience one day later. Yet here I am, years later, able to somewhat recall the actual quest.

Yeah, the presentation of quests in FFXI was much different. There were far fewer quests and most of them were much more involved than 'fetch 5 of these' or 'kill 10 of those' style quests. You tend to remember things like bringing a girl a piece of coeurl meat so she can devour it... raw.

"Fetch me 10,000 fish" Smiley: dubious
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#34 Sep 18 2013 at 5:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Susanoh wrote:
I'd imagine you could retort by saying again, that you feel this is the same because it still involves killing, or it still involves items in some way. But the presentation is entirely different. And I do feel that presentation matters. If Sleepga II were instead granted in Rolanberry Fields by an NPC who said "Man, these bees are eating my crops! Get them!" and two minutes later I was a proud new owner of the scroll, I doubt I would even vaguely remember the experience one day later. Yet here I am, years later, able to somewhat recall the actual quest.

Yeah, the presentation of quests in FFXI was much different. There were far fewer quests and most of them were much more involved than 'fetch 5 of these' or 'kill 10 of those' style quests. You tend to remember things like bringing a girl a piece of coeurl meat so she can devour it... raw.

"Fetch me 10,000 fish" Smiley: dubious


Touche. Smiley: lol

Although Lu Shang's, like the bat wing quest, isn't the type of quest that I'm talking about for the sake of this discussion.

Edited, Sep 18th 2013 7:03am by Susanoh
#35 Sep 18 2013 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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3.5 out of 5 isn't bad for a GR review. And they're one of the oldest gaming sites on the net.
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SE could have done much, much more with it...

Basically an example of what I noted in my last post. Something better could allegedly be done, but we're never told what. My question is, what is that exactly and why has no other MMO yet to do it?


You're asking that question? Why is it every MMO decide to basically be a carbon copy of each other instead of standing on its own? For example people had HUGE hopes for Tera...then it came out and well surprise, aside the battle system everything is the exact same game as every other MMO before it.


I believe Tera(it's a copy of Aion) was trying to cash in on Aion's mistake at launch, while Aion was copying WoW to an extent. At least Tera was not run by NCSoft. If you think SE can be terrible sometimes - NCSoft is far worse and consistently stays that way. But you probably already know that.

Edited, Sep 18th 2013 8:28am by TwilightSkye
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#36 Sep 18 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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I could go on but it will fall on deaf ears, I am not a game designer, and I'm sure game developers are busy enough as it is. The point I was trying to make is there are various shades you could add to each quest to differentiate them. Does every quest have to be unique? No, but most quest shouldn't fall into the 1-2 dimension category. The wheel doesn't have to be re-invented, but use every wheel that has been invented not just three brands or types.

Thing is, all you've really touched upon are derivatives of the "Kill X, Fetch Y, Go To Z, and Defend/Escort Q" dynamic. Whether it's talking to an NPC directly, overhearing them, or basically stepping into an "event" you're including a bare bones level of the Go To Z element. Quests started by finding a random drop included a mix of the Kill X and Fetch Y unless maybe it's a random interactable in the world (Thus, Go To Z) or harvested from a node. As well, I'd be exceptionally cautious of what you basically outlined in a reputation system. These do exist in MMOs today, perhaps not to the intricacy you hope for, but at the same time, knowing how people play these games, when it's determined the rewards of Faction A are better than those of Faction B, you will never see people do Faction B if it's an either/or situation. From the dev perspective, I also dislike the notion of deliberately gating people from content you've created because it risks eliminating a percentage of Things To Do(tm) with their playing.

I've spent a fair amount of time contemplating how I'd do things had I the means to put a game out there. While I wouldn't call my ideas superior, innovative, or likely for the hardcore, I know one thing I'd definitely like to emphasize is the players having the ability to affect the world in tangible ways. For example, I'd like to establish a good monster eco-system where there's a predator/prey relationship between mobs. If, for example, a certain prey's predator is killed so much within a given span, you'll see more of that prey spawn while less of the predator. On the other hand, if the prey is over-hunted, you'll see them less often while the predators might start popping up in other nearby locations taking on different tastes and potentially influencing that little eco-bubble. I'm on the fence with this possibly affecting harvesting potential, but it's something I haven't drowned out. Either way, the hope would be to create an ebb and flow. I also entertained the thought of actual mob extinction, but in the end I think I take more to the thought of there always being a place where, say, wolves would lurk and could always have a chance to expand their territory and take everything back to "normal" if player intervention was minimal or non-existent. This is also perhaps a point where it's could to simplify crafting materials, like instead of having red, black, and white wolf furs, you'd just have a single wolf fur drop all sub-species would share.

Anyway, this could actually apply the holds NPCs have on areas, too. While I'd probably never make a PvP game for reasons of balancing difficulty, weighing hadcore contribution against casual to avoid that feeling of helplessness, and so on, the thought of players doing things to help an NPC "hold" an area, and thus allowing access to a dungeon, new/special NPCs, and so on does appeal. And while GW2 tried this to a degree, I feel like it was both fleeting and not really... epic enough. You could even tie this into the monster eco-system where if a particular region is suffering from a high pest level, then crops are either more expensive or not available at all from vendors. Overall, the world shouldn't be terribly static and "nature" would always be on the offensive trying to reclaim things toward what one could probably call a launch state.

I also realize this doesn't deviate much from the hated quest tropes, but if done right, you could have no two days of doing "quests" in a particular area being the same. I quoted that because I would indeed like to see FATE-like things going on "out in the field" that could tie into this twisted web of progression and regression.

I'm also somewhat quirky in the fact I wouldn't have our characters run off a general EXP level, but instead have the ability to learn, improve, and later modify abilities. Just to crudely correlate to XI here. Let's say you fight with a sword enough to learn Fast Blade. You also take the time to learn Fire and Banish. With all three "mastered" you could then learn Fire Blade and Banish Blade. With those then capped, you could learn Fusion Blade. Yeah, this basically shifts EXP away from the concept of character to skills, but I've always hated the the aspect of XI and XIV where you "forget" things you've learned just because you talked to a moogle or put on a different weapon. As well, I'd probably tie equipment restrictions to masteries. Like, you couldn't use a 2nd tier sword until you're level 2 in Fast Blade. Stuff like that. Given enough time, someone could potentially master everything, sure, but if MMOs have taught me anything, you have some people who will never touch certain classes for whatever reason. And that's only toxic when they turn around and insist their particular preferred class be top dog and those who invest in others should be deliberately weaker. Anyway, I know this system would need a few more refinements, but my main goal is striving for that good mix of character (skills, gear, crafts) and world growth. I'd also probably try and keep the stories more modular, avoiding END OF TEH WORLD tropes because of the whole hero meets errand boy mis-match that tends to happen with the curious absence of reference to those other players who help you do whatever. So while there could come a point where you'd slay a dragon to protect whatever, you'd never be revered as THE dragonslayer, but more pragmatically amongst those who helped do the deed.
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#37 Sep 18 2013 at 7:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Susanoh wrote:
I'd imagine you could retort by saying again, that you feel this is the same because it still involves killing, or it still involves items in some way. But the presentation is entirely different. And I do feel that presentation matters. If Sleepga II were instead granted in Rolanberry Fields by an NPC who said "Man, these bees are eating my crops! Get them!" and two minutes later I was a proud new owner of the scroll, I doubt I would even vaguely remember the experience one day later. Yet here I am, years later, able to somewhat recall the actual quest.

Yeah, the presentation of quests in FFXI was much different. There were far fewer quests and most of them were much more involved than 'fetch 5 of these' or 'kill 10 of those' style quests. You tend to remember things like bringing a girl a piece of coeurl meat so she can devour it... raw.

"Fetch me 10,000 fish" Smiley: dubious


I know I'm probably in the minority here but I loved that quest. Very proud when I finally got mine.
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#38 Sep 18 2013 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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The richest goblin on the planet in FFXI lives in Castle Zvahl. I think he bought the place after Shadowlord died and uses all the ancient currency we give him to pay the mortgage.

I still slap him every time I see him since he charged me a 10,000 Whiteshell piece for my Gjallarhorn. Smiley: glare
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#39 Sep 18 2013 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Susanoh wrote:
Since it's been brought up, I'm personally one who'd take FFXI quests over modern MMO questing. While I wouldn't go as far as saying that FFXI is the pinnacle of quest design, and I couldn't recall many of them in great detail, I do remember being taken to some very interesting parts of the world. I remember some of them having a progressing storyline. I remember them taking more than a minute and a half to complete, and at times feeling like I had actually completed a "quest."

Modern MMO "questing" is the complete opposite. They typically don't make you walk more than 20 seconds from the quest giver, involve about a minute or two of busy work, and you come back to grab your rewards and move onto the next thing. While it's be possible to complete many, many more quests in the same time period using this method, if you're the type who feels that walking outside to grab 3 of this or kill 4 of that isn't rewarding the first time, you aren't going to feel that it's rewarding the tenth time, or the hundredth time, or the thousandth time. I would rather do one quest that feels like an actual quest and leaves somewhat of a lasting impression than one hundred short quests that feel rather meaningless.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 11:03pm by Susanoh

I think the fundamental difference is whether questing is treated as the "bread and butter" (the route XIV took), or if it's just "icing on the cake" (the route XI took). If the quests in XIV were changed from bread and butter to icing on the cake, that leaves a vacuum in the game with the bread and butter. What does that get replaced with? Grinding out mob kills?

I like that leveling is tied to story lines through questing and missions. I'm not just getting exp so that I can see more of the story line. I'm seeing more of the story line while I'm getting my exp.
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#40 Sep 18 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Susanoh wrote:
I'd imagine you could retort by saying again, that you feel this is the same because it still involves killing, or it still involves items in some way. But the presentation is entirely different. And I do feel that presentation matters. If Sleepga II were instead granted in Rolanberry Fields by an NPC who said "Man, these bees are eating my crops! Get them!" and two minutes later I was a proud new owner of the scroll, I doubt I would even vaguely remember the experience one day later. Yet here I am, years later, able to somewhat recall the actual quest.

And yes, I am fully aware that there are some quests, especially in starting zones, where an NPC might say "bring me bat wings!" These were never considered by anyone I know to be a significant part of the game, and they obviously aren't the type of quest that I am talking about here.


Exactly. It's incorrect to equate FFXI's quests to FFXIV/other modern MMORPG's quests. FFXI did not depend on quests for leveling, they were extra padding sprinkled here and there. Often they resulted in some strange or esoteric reward that varied between useless and amazing. It made some of them as memorable as they were optional.

It's also because quests weren't meant to be a major source of progression that they were able to take you to odd places or have difficulty spikes or give you odd rewards: there wasn't this perceived need to optimize every task to the point of the barely conscious. I'm so tired of situations like: "Right-click the guy standing next to me. You'll get 12,865 exp., 439 gil, and your choice of a hat, some pants, or another 1200 gil." What the **** kind of interactions are these? Smiley: rolleyes
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#41 Sep 18 2013 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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svlyons wrote:
Susanoh wrote:
Since it's been brought up, I'm personally one who'd take FFXI quests over modern MMO questing. While I wouldn't go as far as saying that FFXI is the pinnacle of quest design, and I couldn't recall many of them in great detail, I do remember being taken to some very interesting parts of the world. I remember some of them having a progressing storyline. I remember them taking more than a minute and a half to complete, and at times feeling like I had actually completed a "quest."

Modern MMO "questing" is the complete opposite. They typically don't make you walk more than 20 seconds from the quest giver, involve about a minute or two of busy work, and you come back to grab your rewards and move onto the next thing. While it's be possible to complete many, many more quests in the same time period using this method, if you're the type who feels that walking outside to grab 3 of this or kill 4 of that isn't rewarding the first time, you aren't going to feel that it's rewarding the tenth time, or the hundredth time, or the thousandth time. I would rather do one quest that feels like an actual quest and leaves somewhat of a lasting impression than one hundred short quests that feel rather meaningless.

Edited, Sep 17th 2013 11:03pm by Susanoh

I think the fundamental difference is whether questing is treated as the "bread and butter" (the route XIV took), or if it's just "icing on the cake" (the route XI took). If the quests in XIV were changed from bread and butter to icing on the cake, that leaves a vacuum in the game with the bread and butter. What does that get replaced with? Grinding out mob kills?

I like that leveling is tied to story lines through questing and missions. I'm not just getting exp so that I can see more of the story line. I'm seeing more of the story line while I'm getting my exp.


That's a really good point. From what I've read about Guild Wars 2, the developers wanted to do away with traditional questing, but the story I've heard (and I don't know for certain that it's true) is that it didn't go over well with their alpha testers and they ended up adding renown hearts, which are basically a variation on the exclamation point ridden quest hubs in other games. Although, even though it's still not overly exciting, I feel like they did a pretty good job with it compared to other modern games of today. For one thing, there are no "hubs" with a bunch of exclamation point ridden NPCs, hearts are scattered across the map and you can begin completing them as you enter the area they cover. The other thing I prefer about them is that there is almost always multiple ways to complete it. If you like slaughtering mobs, there's often an option for that. There might also be an option for setting traps for the enemies, or disarming enemy traps depending on the area. There may be an option to test out siege equipment on targets, or help train some of the novice combatants in the area. And something that I think often gets overlooked, is that dynamic events will often overlap with the quests themselves. One of the options to complete the quest may be to kill harpies, and a dynamic event may occur from time to time around that particular area. If a huge harpy swarm comes along in a dynamic event, you can end up completing both the dynamic event and the quest for that area all in one go. While again, the whole system isn't drastically different, I feel it's at the very least a clear advancement if players must have traditional questing.

As for what could replace traditional questing completely, that's tough to say for sure. I doubt traditional mob grinding could make a comeback at this point. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if eventually we started to see leveling up downplayed even moreso than it is now. Possibly do away with numbered levels completely, have progression for characters through other methods, and a focus on creating a world and content that players find enjoyable. What that is depends on the game, it could be a form of PVP, or raiding, or something else entirely, but I feel like it will be something. Edit: I do want to add that whatever this something is, it should be meaningful in some way. The type of thing that players do because they love doing it, not the type of thing they do while watching TV because they need to get past the filler in order to get the fun parts. I mean, yes, MMOs tend to involve grind, but people buy these games for some reason, whether for players to interact and want to work together, or for players to try and do well and be rewarded for paying attention and performing their role adequately. Just make it a meaningful experience from the moment you step into the world.

Most people I know aren't very big fans of kill this, collect that quests, and even the advocates of them tend to say things like their place exists because there's nothing better. I always see a ton of hype for new MMOs with comments from people who openly feel that the genre has become stale, and they think x is going to be the one that breaks the mold. Some games have tried, some have managed to do decently in a sense, although I don't feel like any have turned the genre on its head yet (at least, not any I've been exposed to). Still, with the state that the genre is in right now, I think it's highly likely that we will see some major changes eventually, and once the first game shatters the mold and becomes truly successful we'll see things like this questing style left in the dust by every other game that comes after it. That is of course, just a prediction, which I may or may not be correct about, although I personally hope that I am. Smiley: nod

Edited, Sep 18th 2013 12:54pm by Susanoh
#42 Sep 18 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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What I would have liked, along with the quest NPCs we have now, would be NPCs that don't get the quest ! until you've just talked to them once to shoot the ****.

There are a lot of NPCs that have no names and say nothing. Give them a name, and then 20 levels later after you've exhausted the known quests for an area, have them remember you talking to them and suddenly pop up a ! next time you're in town.

Seems more natural than asking random strangers to run off jobs for you.
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#43 Sep 18 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:

FFXI's questing isn't any different than FFXIV's; your nostalgia is tinting your glasses. Like was mentioned above you either killed X mob, brought in Y items from Z mobs, or went to go click on a random ??? in the middle nowhere.

No, you think it's a "better" question option because the story of why you're bothering to get those items or kill that monster is because the meaningless story is literally shoved down your throat in cutscenes. Take away all of those cutscenes, leave nothing but text boxes, and it's absolutely no different than anything everyone else has done.

The stories haven't gotten better or worse in FFXIV. You're simply able to skip them now, people don't bother to read the stories. If you need the sob story about why you need to go carry this woman's love the lunch he forgot (true FFXI quest! -- delivery, just like everyone else) spoonfed to you then you really didn't give a **** about the story aspect of a game anyway.

Nostalgia is a terrible thing.

~~~~

And Catwho I agree, absolutely no one ever gives any real alternatives to what we have for MMO questing. Sandpark made a huge wall of text about... nothing and provided absolutely zero alternatives. No one ever does.

I am not stating that XI did it better than others. But the story is one thing you are not grasping the importance of. My whole pet peeve with questing modern or old is they lack subtlety and substance. There is substance in every interaction whether scripted or non scripted. Too often quest make only the outcome pertinent. But if the outcome is all the same way, what makes each experience different for each individual?

If you, me, Tim, Darla, Esteban, rest of the world all go to the same supermarket on Friday. Would the experience getting there be the same for everyone? No, there are all kinds of things that would make Friday different for every person who goes to the supermarket.

It's the story and subtlety that makes everything unique. Make breakfast for your wife and tell her you love everything about her. Be specific and genuine with your motives and emotions. If you were resentful somewhere deep down about making breakfast but did it just because it is polite and seems romantic. She might be thankful but she would receive your generosity differently based off your heart and intentions in the action. Apply any emotion here and voice it. Excitement, supplicative, joy, etc.

You said I listed no alternatives but I am giving the keys to the kingdom here. It's not my job to create these random factors, but I have been providing feedback on various forums since 2009 to SE. Like I said, SE is not the sole guilty developer nor do I hold them to a higher standard. I will play as long as I enjoy the game. The second that joy dims or fades. I will leave temporarily or permanently.

And ARR would still be just fine, just like most other mmos out right now.
#44 Sep 18 2013 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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"Convoluted story", sorry, but its not a fair review if he thinks the story is bad. For an MMO, this game has one of the best stories out there.
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