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A Threat Profile question (with bonus story!)Follow

#1 Sep 19 2013 at 3:39 AM Rating: Decent
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So, bear with me, I tend to be fond of literary exposition.

So, I am "mining" my own business out by CopperBell and a Lancer shouts out for anyone who wants to run CB since he's been waiting forever on the Duty Finder. I feel for him, as I play ACN and more or less avoid DF because of the wait, but CB is a story instance and he's stuck. So I shout out that I'll be his healer and switch out to my CNJ (21). After I join, a group of other helpful folks join in right quick and a-spelunking we go.

So, while we're down, delving the depths of said dungeon, the Tank asks that I switch off Cleric Stance, which I had intentionally switched to, because he was kind of squishy. When he asked me why I would intentionally use Cleric Stance to reduce my heals, I explained that by using slightly lower heals, I reduced my Threat Profile, which in turn allowed me to cast Cure more often, particularly after Cure would Crit, which could heal for quite abit more.

To explain my thinking, its a carry-over logic from FFxi, where over-Curing the Tank would result in a higher Threat Profile for the Healer. To be honest, I have no actual facts to back up my assumption regarding this mechanic save the experience of A LOT of Sas/Tam/Bell runs across multiple characters leveled as CNJ.

The Tank got huffy and started telling me how he played a WHM (implying he was higher level and knew more about the job than I did, without actually asking me what my un-level-synced level was >.> ) and that I shouldn't worry about my Threat Profile, that was his problem. I take the opinion (my ideas regarding Healing and Threat aside) Threat is everyone's problem and that we should all take steps to make the Tank's job easier.

As a sidenote, he never once died, though I did get a few times from runaway mobs and was the only one in double digit health at the end of the final boss fight while everyone else was nearly full.

( ... and I can't let this go, because honestly, he annoyed me and I find myself being petty about this, but he claimed that I would get players in a lvl 35 instance killed but didn't recognize that I was using a macro for Fluid Aura when I spammed it a couple of times on accident, telling me to "stop typing and heal" >.>; )

So, for those who jumped to this last line, does over-healing produce more Threat than say healing that doesn't fill a health bar completely?

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 2:49am by Jjnnyrr
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#2 Sep 19 2013 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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First off, the tank acted kind of ungrateful, criticizing someone who's helping him. If he didn't die he should just accept that the healer plays how he wants it.

Having said that, I do not follow this logic. Lower heals, so that they can crit more? Sorry, this is not right. Sastasha, Copperbell, and Tam-Tara are so simple and just a showcase, that probably even worst healer can do it with crippling gear and what not.
#3 Sep 19 2013 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Not crit for more, but for less, allowing me to cast more Cures with less Threat generated.

edit: And my question isn't really regarding my strategy per se (I am perfectly willing to accept I may be wrong on this). My question is regarding how over-curing a target affects threat vs a full cure that doesn't fill a HP bar.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 3:09am by Jjnnyrr
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Vrrynn Moonshadow (Mi'qote / Ul'dah / Faerie )
SCH 50 (/*-*)/ WAR 50 (and the rest are works in progress)

Vrrelle Moondancer (Mi'qote / Limsa / Faerie)
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Vrrllyrr (Mithra / San d'Oria / Seraph)
Drg 75 (I <3 Lumi!)

"The problem with black and white, is that is turns grey at all the points of contact."

"I feel its an insult to Mithra everywhere that rabbits can /check as 'Tough' instead of 'Lunch'"
#4 Sep 19 2013 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
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If he said it once like he was offering a suggestion, I would have taken it. If he continued in a harassing manner, I would have said something like: "Look @#%^, you've got your job and I've got mine. If we die because I'm not healing right then I'll take up your suggestion. In the meantime, gently remove that tampon and quit your *************** Then sit back and watch the sparks fly Smiley: grinSmiley: grinSmiley: grin

Or you follow Robert Downey Jr.'s suggestion which is: smile, nod, and agree with whatever is being said to you. Then continue to do your own thing.

But seriously, I would let it go and count the dungeon run as a success. You've got many personalities (which are amplified because they are behind a keyboard) to deal with in ARR and frankly not everybody thinks and plays the same way. I'm sure you know a few people in real life like this tank person.



Edited, Sep 19th 2013 6:20am by ASpaceman
#5 Sep 19 2013 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
Unless it gets tested, more heals (even if weaker, in that stance you no longer have the MND [if we are going off FFXI stats]) seems like it would generate more hate rather then 1 normal heal. Not sure how far down you let someone's HP get before you heal them (I let them get about 1/4, maybe 1/2). I'd rather just pop 1-2 cures off and not have to spam cure.
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#6 Sep 19 2013 at 6:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I was always under the assumption that it worked like this, assuming you need to cure 1k hp:

Without cleric stance:
Cure1 for - 500x 2 = 1000 enmity

With cleric stance:
Cure1 for 400x3 = 1200 enmity

There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example. Say you need 900 hp;

1) Is 2x cure 1 = 1000 enmity,
2) 900 enmity and over cure doesnt count,
3) do heals count as enmity per cast then a small % of amount healed. AKA each cure 1 is = 200 emnity + 10% of ammount cured for (200 + 50)

Until we know exactly how enmity works its hard to say you or the tank is right honestly. I would err on the side of having stronger cures if someone was squishy so i dont have to heal as often, but thats me.

The only thing I know for sure, is that regen is the bane of my whm existence. You think you are being smart by giving it to tanks before a pull, then they run in and regen gives you agro instead of the tanks. If there was one CNJ spell that needs fixed its the agro associated with regen on unclaimed mobs.
#7 Sep 19 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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In all of the instances I've tanked, DD taking threat from me is never an issue. When it does happen it's the healer. Eventually something will have to be done about CNJ/WHM threat table. That being said, I don't blame the healer when it happens. I look at what I'm doing and change it up. As a result of that it has made me a better tank. You're not doing the tank a favor in the long run by using Cleric Stance.

And if a tank ever complains about you taking hate (the good ones won't), simply go Kevin Hart "You gonna learn today!" on them.
#8 Sep 19 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:


The Tank got huffy and started telling me how he played a WHM (implying he was higher level and knew more about the job than I did, without actually asking me what my un-level-synced level was >.> ) and that I shouldn't worry about my Threat Profile, that was his problem. I take the opinion (my ideas regarding Healing and Threat aside) Threat is everyone's problem and that we should all take steps to make the Tank's job easier.


You are correct in your thinking, while he is not. Healer and tank go hand and hand and must worry about each other's aggro management. Healers have to have some kind of self restraint when it comes to tossing cures. Knowing when to cure, and which one to use. This will come second nature to you over time.

You'll get better with this in time. And by the way, not every high level whm in FFXI knew what they were doing, as this tank implies. Some can give bad advice.. I've certainly ran dynamis with quite a few lazy 75 WHMs. The ones, I hated refreshing with a passion but did it anyway. I always wanted to curl up under those rare good ones and call them mommy <_< and say "please don't go away".

Err I'm rambling now.
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#9 Sep 19 2013 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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dustinfoley wrote:
I was always under the assumption that it worked like this, assuming you need to cure 1k hp:

Without cleric stance:
Cure1 for - 500x 2 = 1000 enmity

With cleric stance:
Cure1 for 400x3 = 1200 enmity

There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example. Say you need 900 hp;

1) Is 2x cure 1 = 1000 enmity,
2) 900 enmity and over cure doesnt count,
3) do heals count as enmity per cast then a small % of amount healed. AKA each cure 1 is = 200 emnity + 10% of ammount cured for (200 + 50)

Until we know exactly how enmity works its hard to say you or the tank is right honestly. I would err on the side of having stronger cures if someone was squishy so i dont have to heal as often, but thats me.

The only thing I know for sure, is that regen is the bane of my whm existence. You think you are being smart by giving it to tanks before a pull, then they run in and regen gives you agro instead of the tanks. If there was one CNJ spell that needs fixed its the agro associated with regen on unclaimed mobs.



I think this is definitely a good assessment. I would add that also using less curing power per heal you are also spending more mana for less throughput. At that level sync probably not a huge issue, but definitely becomes a factor later in the game. This is of course assuming none of the healing goes to overhealing - then all of it is pretty much a hogwash.
#10 Sep 19 2013 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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This is pure speculation based on what I have seen and heard over the last decade+, so don't take this to heart, but the way it was explained to me is that overhealing ruins the ratio of health cured to agro gained, and that overhealing doesn't generate any more or less threat than not overhealing. For example: (numbers are made up, of course)

Tank has 500 / 1000 HP
Heal Tank for 500 HP = Generate 500 Threat
1:1 Ratio of Damage Cured to Threat Received

Tank has 750 / 1000 HP
Heal Tank for 500 HP (250 over heal) = Generate 500 Threat
1:2 Ratio of Damage Cured to Threat Received

So in the latter case, you generated the same amount of threat as the first case, but you gained 2x as much hate PER health point restored. Had you waited 3 more seconds, let the tank eat another attack, and healed him for the full 500 you would have earned the EXACT same amount of threat as in the second case, but at basically half the cost per point. So if you healed consistently in the latter configuration you WILL steal agro before a person using the former configuration because the tank will take that 500 points of DMG during the fight, regardless. The question is, do you heal him 250 points at a time while still taking the 500 threat or do you wait and take the same 500 threat for healing 500 HP. The only thing that changes is your heal to threat ratio.

I have always been told and practiced that you try to keep your tank as close to full without going over too much. A few points here and there are no big loss, but if it is more than 5% then I would just wait one more attack cycle, even if the heal now won't bring the tank back up to 100%, or use a smaller heal that does not go over if it is available. I would rather the tank be at 97% health and my agro be balanced than healing him to 100% constantly and generating agro from health that was swallowed up by the aether.

Please let me know if I am wrong in my thinking, because I would rather have the facts than a hypothesis.
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#11 Sep 19 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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I look at how much damage the tank is having per attack, and know how much my heals do max. Then I pick a point just below that max heal as my "cure now" target.

So in the lower dungeons, a MRD tank won't have that much more than 600 HP. I set my mental marker as 400 HP and won't lob a cure until he dips below that point. He's unlikely to take more than 400 damage in a single critical attack anyway.

The tank won't be capped when the fight is over, but he'll certainly regen to full before we get to the next fight.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 11:14am by Catwho
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#12 Sep 19 2013 at 12:57 PM Rating: Default
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Thanks for the info! It at least gives a better idea of what is happening when I'm healing and with this newfound knowledge I will be able to conquer TEH WORLD!

... or just be a better healer. >.>; Much appreciated and thanks for all the helpful advice :)

edit: Why would Cleric Stance generate more Threat? Nothing in its description says it would do so, and tootips for Savage Blade and Skull Sunder mention increased Enmity.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 12:00pm by Jjnnyrr
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#13 Sep 19 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
So, I am "mining" my own business out by CopperBell and a Lancer shouts out for anyone who wants to run CB since he's been waiting forever on the Duty Finder.
Isn't the average wait time for damage dealers something like half an hour? Little ***** are spoiled.
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#14 Sep 19 2013 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
Thanks for the info! It at least gives a better idea of what is happening when I'm healing and with this newfound knowledge I will be able to conquer TEH WORLD!

... or just be a better healer. >.>; Much appreciated and thanks for all the helpful advice :)

edit: Why would Cleric Stance generate more Threat? Nothing in its description says it would do so, and tootips for Savage Blade and Skull Sunder mention increased Enmity.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 12:00pm by Jjnnyrr


He wasn't saying that it generated more threat per se, but that it would take more casts in Cleric Stance to achieve the same goal. Let us say you want to heal 1000 HP without the stance you have to cast 2x 500 HP heals = 1000 threat (assuming 1:1). To reach the same goal with stance on you have to cast 3x 400 HP heals = 1200 threat (again, assuming a 1:1). So in stance it takes 3 heals at 400 a piece for a total of 1000 HP returned (200 over heal) and 1200 threat returned to you. Out of stance it takes 2 heals at 500 a piece for a total of 1000 HP returned (0 over heal) and 1000 threat returned to you.

So in stance you have to cast 3 spells, waste 200 HP, use more MP, and generate 200 more threat because even though the HP is not healed the threat is still generated (assumed). Out of stance you have to cast 2 spells, nothing is wasted, MP is conserved, and 200 threat has been eliminated. You will live longer, have more MP, and the tank will be none the wiser.
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#15 Sep 19 2013 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
So, I am "mining" my own business out by CopperBell and a Lancer shouts out for anyone who wants to run CB since he's been waiting forever on the Duty Finder.
Isn't the average wait time for damage dealers something like half an hour? Little sh*ts are spoiled.


I remember the first time I leveled up THF to 75 in FFXI.

I'd have been overjoyed at a thirty minute wait for a party. Smiley: glare
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#16 Sep 19 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
So, I am "mining" my own business out by CopperBell and a Lancer shouts out for anyone who wants to run CB since he's been waiting forever on the Duty Finder.
Isn't the average wait time for damage dealers something like half an hour? Little sh*ts are spoiled.


I remember the first time I leveled up THF to 75 in FFXI.

I'd have been overjoyed at a thirty minute wait for a party. Smiley: glare


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#17 Sep 19 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Default
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Azoria wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
Thanks for the info! It at least gives a better idea of what is happening when I'm healing and with this newfound knowledge I will be able to conquer TEH WORLD!

... or just be a better healer. >.>; Much appreciated and thanks for all the helpful advice :)

edit: Why would Cleric Stance generate more Threat? Nothing in its description says it would do so, and tootips for Savage Blade and Skull Sunder mention increased Enmity.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 12:00pm by Jjnnyrr


He wasn't saying that it generated more threat per se, but that it would take more casts in Cleric Stance to achieve the same goal. Let us say you want to heal 1000 HP without the stance you have to cast 2x 500 HP heals = 1000 threat (assuming 1:1). To reach the same goal with stance on you have to cast 3x 400 HP heals = 1200 threat (again, assuming a 1:1). So in stance it takes 3 heals at 400 a piece for a total of 1000 HP returned (200 over heal) and 1200 threat returned to you. Out of stance it takes 2 heals at 500 a piece for a total of 1000 HP returned (0 over heal) and 1000 threat returned to you.

So in stance you have to cast 3 spells, waste 200 HP, use more MP, and generate 200 more threat because even though the HP is not healed the threat is still generated (assumed). Out of stance you have to cast 2 spells, nothing is wasted, MP is conserved, and 200 threat has been eliminated. You will live longer, have more MP, and the tank will be none the wiser.


Ah, I see how I misread that now. Makes more sense. Though my thinking in using Cleric Stance (and I am probably wrong in this) is that I sort of approach the way Catwho ( /flail wave to Catwho!~) in that I see how much my Cures are healing for, and then cast when his total damage exceeds my average total heal (not accounting for a crit). By using a smaller heal, I can heal sooner by not having to wait until he takes more damage as would be the case if I were waiting cast a regular heal using this stategy.

to illustrate (numbers are made up):
Cleric Stance On:
Tank takes 50 per hit >>> I can heal for 96 HP per cast >>> I can heal him after two hits

Cleric Stance Off:
Tank takes 50 per hit >>> I can heal for 120 HP per cast >>> I can heal after three hits (because I'm trying to avoid over-curing)

From my point of view, it seems like using Cleric Stance (disregarding issues of Threat for the moment) would offer a better safety net to operate within.

Depending on how Threat actually works, more frequent casts could prove detrimental but would have to be weighed against how close to "full" you want to keep the Tank.

Catwho wrote:
I remember the first time I leveled up THF to 75 in FFXI.

I'd have been overjoyed at a thirty minute wait for a party. Smiley: glare


Ah... leveling DRG in FFxi... oh how I remember my time in Jeuno fondly.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 12:56pm by Jjnnyrr
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"The problem with black and white, is that is turns grey at all the points of contact."

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#18 Sep 19 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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You definitely get the gist of it all... now we just need actual facts regarding how threat is handled and whether or not the overflow from healing still generates threat or if it is only the amount that is healed. This, I think, is the bit that causes the whole house of cards to fall down because we just don't have all the facts yet, especially with regards to over healing. We make a lot of assumptions based on prior experience in previous games, intuition and common sense... but all of that can be flat out wrong.
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#19 Sep 19 2013 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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dustinfoley wrote:
I was always under the assumption that it worked like this, assuming you need to cure 1k hp:

Without cleric stance:
Cure1 for - 500x 2 = 1000 enmity

With cleric stance:
Cure1 for 400x3 = 1200 enmity

There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example. Say you need 900 hp;

1) Is 2x cure 1 = 1000 enmity,
2) 900 enmity and over cure doesnt count,
3) do heals count as enmity per cast then a small % of amount healed. AKA each cure 1 is = 200 emnity + 10% of ammount cured for (200 + 50)

Until we know exactly how enmity works its hard to say you or the tank is right honestly. I would err on the side of having stronger cures if someone was squishy so i dont have to heal as often, but thats me.

The only thing I know for sure, is that regen is the bane of my whm existence. You think you are being smart by giving it to tanks before a pull, then they run in and regen gives you agro instead of the tanks. If there was one CNJ spell that needs fixed its the agro associated with regen on unclaimed mobs.


This is the way cures work:

  • Unlike every other MMO in existance, overhealing *DOES* generate threat. If you see that number, you generate that threat.
  • Every point of HP healed is 0.5 threat. If you heal for 1,000 you generate 500 threat. If you heal for 500, you generate 250, etc. This is universal for all classes.
  • 1 damage = 1 threat. Simple, universal. Until level 30 for Warriors (40 for Paladins) they have to rely on Shield Lob/Tomahawk (3x), Savage Blade/Skull Sunder (3x), and Butcher's Block/Rage of Halone (5x) for threat output as they don't have their overall 2x stances yet. It is *INCREDIBLY* easy to rip hate off of a tank even post stances due to overhealing if you're not paying attention.
  • There is no sliding scale or exponential gain of threat. Everything is linear, static, and straightforward.
  • Considering the tests included up to an hour of spamming cures between two healers to attempt to see if there is a ceiling (which lead to nearly 5 million threat and it still didn't cap) there's no known 'hard' cap and more than likely lies within a 32 or 64 bit integer.


You need the largest cures you can find because that's what's going to extend your mana pool later on. Your tanks need to learn how to generate threat and healers need to learn to give them a second. Like all MMOs, it gets easier as you level with more tools at everyone's disposal.

dustinfoley wrote:
There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example


No, there isn't any more 'testing' needed in enmity because it's been tested since 1.0, since all betas phases for ARR, and on launch. Absolutely nothing has changed and about the only thing that will is the fact that overhealing need to not generate hate.

Damage needs formulas figured out, healing needs a define one. Further breakdown of stats and comparisons are always welcome. However, threat in FFXIV has always stayed the same since testing began by Kanican (FFXI's leading theorycrafter btw) back in 1.18 it hasn't changed at all. Until they announce they're alter threat mechanics it won't change.

I do agree, however, that Regen pre-fight needs to register as the tank's threat and not yours.
#20 Sep 19 2013 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
From my point of view, it seems like using Cleric Stance (disregarding issues of Threat for the moment) would offer a better safety net to operate within


Using your numbers: without Cleric Stance, tank health varies between Full and Full - 120, Full and Full - 96 with. That's an average difference of 12 HP (10% of a no-stance heal). In order to keep the tank's health 10% of a heal higher on average, you are hindering your burst throughput and mana efficiency by 20%. If you have the mana in excess, you could contribute more to the likelihood of survival by helping to DPS. (Death is the best CC)
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#21 Sep 19 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Default
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Viertel wrote:


This is the way cures work:

  • Unlike every other MMO in existance, overhealing *DOES* generate threat. If you see that number, you generate that threat.
  • Every point of HP healed is 0.5 threat. If you heal for 1,000 you generate 500 threat. If you heal for 500, you generate 250, etc. This is universal for all classes.
  • 1 damage = 1 threat. Simple, universal. Until level 30 for Warriors (40 for Paladins) they have to rely on Shield Lob/Tomahawk (3x), Savage Blade/Skull Sunder (3x), and Butcher's Block/Rage of Halone (5x) for threat output as they don't have their overall 2x stances yet. It is *INCREDIBLY* easy to rip hate off of a tank even post stances due to overhealing if you're not paying attention.
  • There is no sliding scale or exponential gain of threat. Everything is linear, static, and straightforward.
  • Considering the tests included up to an hour of spamming cures between two healers to attempt to see if there is a ceiling (which lead to nearly 5 million threat and it still didn't cap) there's no known 'hard' cap and more than likely lies within a 32 or 64 bit integer.


You need the largest cures you can find because that's what's going to extend your mana pool later on. Your tanks need to learn how to generate threat and healers need to learn to give them a second. Like all MMOs, it gets easier as you level with more tools at everyone's disposal.

dustinfoley wrote:
There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example


No, there isn't any more 'testing' needed in enmity because it's been tested since 1.0, since all betas phases for ARR, and on launch. Absolutely nothing has changed and about the only thing that will is the fact that overhealing need to not generate hate.

Damage needs formulas figured out, healing needs a define one. Further breakdown of stats and comparisons are always welcome. However, threat in FFXIV has always stayed the same since testing began by Kanican (FFXI's leading theorycrafter btw) back in 1.18 it hasn't changed at all. Until they announce they're alter threat mechanics it won't change.

I do agree, however, that Regen pre-fight needs to register as the tank's threat and not yours.


Forgive the ignorance in my questions, I"m just trying to figure this out.

So anywho, From what I've seen (albiet at lvl 24 in Halatali) my regular Cures are landing for something in the neighborhood of 200 HP (w/o Cleric Stance). According to the facts you listed, that means I generate 100 Threat per cast (disregarding for the moment any Offensive Spells or other abilities I may be using).

I have noticed (and I now wish I had written it down the last time I looked) that DDs seem to hit for about 40 - 50(ish) dmg (not including crits), so assuming we are all perfoming actions at the same rate of 2.5 seconds and assuming that the tank is keeping up on his end of Threat generation, it sounds as though Healers will often end up second on a Threat list.

So wouldn't that mean that using reduced Cures via Cleric Stance would actually be beneficial in terms of party dynamics by reducing the rate at which a Healer climbs the Threat list?
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#22 Sep 19 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I never understood it why some people feel that you must always be perfect. I'm not a high level CNJ by any means, but I was doing my hunting log and my DF popped up. I had on Cleric Stance by mistake since it doesn't click off. The THM gets all ***** that I missed this as we began the dungeon. I clicked it off right away, no attitude, but this THM left soon after probably because of it. This kind of stuff happens all the time. Instead of a friendly reminder without all the drama, people are quick to label you as if you're a moron. I really don't believe that you need to nerf your healing skill to lose threat. Only if you're overcuring should there be a problem. Either that or the tank sucks at doing their job.
#23 Sep 19 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
So wouldn't that mean that using reduced Cures via Cleric Stance would actually be beneficial in terms of party dynamics by reducing the rate at which a Healer climbs the Threat list?


No.

Time your heals better. You don't need to heal every single GCD all the time every time, especially in leveling dungeons. Until overhealing is done away with or hate modifiers are changed for tanks just pray you get better tanks.

You need to get used to dealing those semi-large heals and the tanks need to learn how to out-pace them. You'll be praying for those large heals when tanks have 5K+ health and your Cures are doing 900~ with Cure II doing 1300~.

Cleric stance is for damaging abilities and damaging abilities only.

EDIT: Your other question.

Until the tank gets more tools you're going to end up second on the list if the tank's gear sucks, the tank is terrible, or you're overhealing out of a fear of losing the tank. I leveled PLD first and am on Titan HM: the overhealing aggro eventually becomes an absolute *nightmare* at times.

At that level your tank doesn't have access to Rage of Halone (5x modifier) but at least has Shield Lob on the pull (3x) and Savage Blade combo (3x). Damage numbers on the combos around that time are 50-60~ for Fast followed by a 100~ Savage for a total of close to 350 threat within 2 GCDs. It all depends on the tank's gear, their suitability towards being a tank, and whether you're spamming heals just to spam them.

There's also the fact that GLD/PLD doesn't deal well with burst on adds at all. We're perfect for long fights once the initial burst opening is done, but with multiple enemies (though we *can* do it) is much rougher than a MRD/WAR's capabilities. It all depends on how good of a tank your tank is in terms of mentality and playing ability.


Edited, Sep 19th 2013 5:00pm by Viertel
#24 Sep 19 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
Forgive the ignorance in my questions, I"m just trying to figure this out.

So anywho, From what I've seen (albiet at lvl 24 in Halatali) my regular Cures are landing for something in the neighborhood of 200 HP (w/o Cleric Stance). According to the facts you listed, that means I generate 100 Threat per cast (disregarding for the moment any Offensive Spells or other abilities I may be using).

I have noticed (and I now wish I had written it down the last time I looked) that DDs seem to hit for about 40 - 50(ish) dmg (not including crits), so assuming we are all perfoming actions at the same rate of 2.5 seconds and assuming that the tank is keeping up on his end of Threat generation, it sounds as though Healers will often end up second on a Threat list.

So wouldn't that mean that using reduced Cures via Cleric Stance would actually be beneficial in terms of party dynamics by reducing the rate at which a Healer climbs the Threat list?

No, it doesn't make sense. Just turn it off and don't cast a cure when the tank is only missing 100 hp. You don't have to let them get to 10% to get the most out of your heals and unless you're spamming cure and getting crits right at the start a tank will out threat you. Later on the mana you expend trying to lessen a few early heals will hurt you more than just managing the initial curing. Honestly in the initial dungeons it doesn't matter, but it's better to develop good habits and habits that will last into your 50s when you can.
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#25 Sep 19 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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Anakte wrote:
No, it doesn't make sense. Just turn it off and don't cast a cure when the tank is only missing 100 hp. You don't have to let them get to 10% to get the most out of your heals and unless you're spamming cure and getting crits right at the start a tank will out threat you. Later on the mana you expend trying to lessen a few early heals will hurt you more than just managing the initial curing. Honestly in the initial dungeons it doesn't matter, but it's better to develop good habits and habits that will last into your 50s when you can.


I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your post only vaguely addresses my question.

Example:

Tanks Total HP is 500. Each hit he takes causes 50 dmg.

Cleric Stance Off:
I heal for 120 HP. I generate 60 Threat per cast and I want to heal keep my Tank closer to full without wasting the heal or generating excess Threat.

Tank takes a total of 150 dmg (total HP of Tank at this moment is 350). I cast heal for 120 HP (total HP of Tank at this moment is 470).

Cleric Stance On:
I heal for 96 HP. I generate 48 Threat per cast. (same as above)

Tank takes a total of 100 dmg (total HP of Tank at this moment is 400). I cast a heal for 96 HP (total HP of Tank at this moment is 498)

All other variable aside, that total HP of the Tank after a heal is what I'm considering. Isn't it safer to be able to both not let the Tank drop as far down in damage and to keep him closer to full? I know this is an overly simplified example, but this is what I'm talking about when I talk about being safer.

Also, I don't let Tanks drop to 10% unless something in the fight has gone pear-shaped, like unexpected adds or party members accidentally grabbing targets.

And my goal isn't to develop habits of any kind, but to develop a strategy that works for the party. Not all mobs hit the same, and in AoE tanking, I find the Tank takes smaller hits and goes down in damage differently than say the big boss fights that hit like a hammer. Being able to alter the strength of my cures allows me to adjust to the sceneario rather than just follow a formula.

This is my thinking on the matter, anywho.

Edit: I missed Viertel's post somehow, which offers some clarity to what I was asking.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 2:20pm by Jjnnyrr

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 2:24pm by Jjnnyrr
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Vrrynn Moonshadow (Mi'qote / Ul'dah / Faerie )
SCH 50 (/*-*)/ WAR 50 (and the rest are works in progress)

Vrrelle Moondancer (Mi'qote / Limsa / Faerie)
PLD 50 (rawr~) MRD 29

Vrrllyrr (Mithra / San d'Oria / Seraph)
Drg 75 (I <3 Lumi!)

"The problem with black and white, is that is turns grey at all the points of contact."

"I feel its an insult to Mithra everywhere that rabbits can /check as 'Tough' instead of 'Lunch'"
#26 Sep 19 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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hmm if we can generate more hate when overheal. Does that means that Critical heal, when it's not needed is actually harmfull for you because it generate more hate.

In that case, healer will have to avoid + critical hit stats like plague...
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