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A Threat Profile question (with bonus story!)Follow

#1 Sep 19 2013 at 3:39 AM Rating: Decent
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So, bear with me, I tend to be fond of literary exposition.

So, I am "mining" my own business out by CopperBell and a Lancer shouts out for anyone who wants to run CB since he's been waiting forever on the Duty Finder. I feel for him, as I play ACN and more or less avoid DF because of the wait, but CB is a story instance and he's stuck. So I shout out that I'll be his healer and switch out to my CNJ (21). After I join, a group of other helpful folks join in right quick and a-spelunking we go.

So, while we're down, delving the depths of said dungeon, the Tank asks that I switch off Cleric Stance, which I had intentionally switched to, because he was kind of squishy. When he asked me why I would intentionally use Cleric Stance to reduce my heals, I explained that by using slightly lower heals, I reduced my Threat Profile, which in turn allowed me to cast Cure more often, particularly after Cure would Crit, which could heal for quite abit more.

To explain my thinking, its a carry-over logic from FFxi, where over-Curing the Tank would result in a higher Threat Profile for the Healer. To be honest, I have no actual facts to back up my assumption regarding this mechanic save the experience of A LOT of Sas/Tam/Bell runs across multiple characters leveled as CNJ.

The Tank got huffy and started telling me how he played a WHM (implying he was higher level and knew more about the job than I did, without actually asking me what my un-level-synced level was >.> ) and that I shouldn't worry about my Threat Profile, that was his problem. I take the opinion (my ideas regarding Healing and Threat aside) Threat is everyone's problem and that we should all take steps to make the Tank's job easier.

As a sidenote, he never once died, though I did get a few times from runaway mobs and was the only one in double digit health at the end of the final boss fight while everyone else was nearly full.

( ... and I can't let this go, because honestly, he annoyed me and I find myself being petty about this, but he claimed that I would get players in a lvl 35 instance killed but didn't recognize that I was using a macro for Fluid Aura when I spammed it a couple of times on accident, telling me to "stop typing and heal" >.>; )

So, for those who jumped to this last line, does over-healing produce more Threat than say healing that doesn't fill a health bar completely?

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 2:49am by Jjnnyrr
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#2 Sep 19 2013 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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First off, the tank acted kind of ungrateful, criticizing someone who's helping him. If he didn't die he should just accept that the healer plays how he wants it.

Having said that, I do not follow this logic. Lower heals, so that they can crit more? Sorry, this is not right. Sastasha, Copperbell, and Tam-Tara are so simple and just a showcase, that probably even worst healer can do it with crippling gear and what not.
#3 Sep 19 2013 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Not crit for more, but for less, allowing me to cast more Cures with less Threat generated.

edit: And my question isn't really regarding my strategy per se (I am perfectly willing to accept I may be wrong on this). My question is regarding how over-curing a target affects threat vs a full cure that doesn't fill a HP bar.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 3:09am by Jjnnyrr
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Vrrynn Moonshadow (Mi'qote / Ul'dah / Faerie )
SCH 50 (/*-*)/ WAR 50 (and the rest are works in progress)

Vrrelle Moondancer (Mi'qote / Limsa / Faerie)
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Vrrllyrr (Mithra / San d'Oria / Seraph)
Drg 75 (I <3 Lumi!)

"The problem with black and white, is that is turns grey at all the points of contact."

"I feel its an insult to Mithra everywhere that rabbits can /check as 'Tough' instead of 'Lunch'"
#4 Sep 19 2013 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
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If he said it once like he was offering a suggestion, I would have taken it. If he continued in a harassing manner, I would have said something like: "Look @#%^, you've got your job and I've got mine. If we die because I'm not healing right then I'll take up your suggestion. In the meantime, gently remove that tampon and quit your *************** Then sit back and watch the sparks fly Smiley: grinSmiley: grinSmiley: grin

Or you follow Robert Downey Jr.'s suggestion which is: smile, nod, and agree with whatever is being said to you. Then continue to do your own thing.

But seriously, I would let it go and count the dungeon run as a success. You've got many personalities (which are amplified because they are behind a keyboard) to deal with in ARR and frankly not everybody thinks and plays the same way. I'm sure you know a few people in real life like this tank person.



Edited, Sep 19th 2013 6:20am by ASpaceman
#5 Sep 19 2013 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
Unless it gets tested, more heals (even if weaker, in that stance you no longer have the MND [if we are going off FFXI stats]) seems like it would generate more hate rather then 1 normal heal. Not sure how far down you let someone's HP get before you heal them (I let them get about 1/4, maybe 1/2). I'd rather just pop 1-2 cures off and not have to spam cure.
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#6 Sep 19 2013 at 6:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I was always under the assumption that it worked like this, assuming you need to cure 1k hp:

Without cleric stance:
Cure1 for - 500x 2 = 1000 enmity

With cleric stance:
Cure1 for 400x3 = 1200 enmity

There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example. Say you need 900 hp;

1) Is 2x cure 1 = 1000 enmity,
2) 900 enmity and over cure doesnt count,
3) do heals count as enmity per cast then a small % of amount healed. AKA each cure 1 is = 200 emnity + 10% of ammount cured for (200 + 50)

Until we know exactly how enmity works its hard to say you or the tank is right honestly. I would err on the side of having stronger cures if someone was squishy so i dont have to heal as often, but thats me.

The only thing I know for sure, is that regen is the bane of my whm existence. You think you are being smart by giving it to tanks before a pull, then they run in and regen gives you agro instead of the tanks. If there was one CNJ spell that needs fixed its the agro associated with regen on unclaimed mobs.
#7 Sep 19 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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In all of the instances I've tanked, DD taking threat from me is never an issue. When it does happen it's the healer. Eventually something will have to be done about CNJ/WHM threat table. That being said, I don't blame the healer when it happens. I look at what I'm doing and change it up. As a result of that it has made me a better tank. You're not doing the tank a favor in the long run by using Cleric Stance.

And if a tank ever complains about you taking hate (the good ones won't), simply go Kevin Hart "You gonna learn today!" on them.
#8 Sep 19 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:


The Tank got huffy and started telling me how he played a WHM (implying he was higher level and knew more about the job than I did, without actually asking me what my un-level-synced level was >.> ) and that I shouldn't worry about my Threat Profile, that was his problem. I take the opinion (my ideas regarding Healing and Threat aside) Threat is everyone's problem and that we should all take steps to make the Tank's job easier.


You are correct in your thinking, while he is not. Healer and tank go hand and hand and must worry about each other's aggro management. Healers have to have some kind of self restraint when it comes to tossing cures. Knowing when to cure, and which one to use. This will come second nature to you over time.

You'll get better with this in time. And by the way, not every high level whm in FFXI knew what they were doing, as this tank implies. Some can give bad advice.. I've certainly ran dynamis with quite a few lazy 75 WHMs. The ones, I hated refreshing with a passion but did it anyway. I always wanted to curl up under those rare good ones and call them mommy <_< and say "please don't go away".

Err I'm rambling now.
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#9 Sep 19 2013 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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dustinfoley wrote:
I was always under the assumption that it worked like this, assuming you need to cure 1k hp:

Without cleric stance:
Cure1 for - 500x 2 = 1000 enmity

With cleric stance:
Cure1 for 400x3 = 1200 enmity

There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example. Say you need 900 hp;

1) Is 2x cure 1 = 1000 enmity,
2) 900 enmity and over cure doesnt count,
3) do heals count as enmity per cast then a small % of amount healed. AKA each cure 1 is = 200 emnity + 10% of ammount cured for (200 + 50)

Until we know exactly how enmity works its hard to say you or the tank is right honestly. I would err on the side of having stronger cures if someone was squishy so i dont have to heal as often, but thats me.

The only thing I know for sure, is that regen is the bane of my whm existence. You think you are being smart by giving it to tanks before a pull, then they run in and regen gives you agro instead of the tanks. If there was one CNJ spell that needs fixed its the agro associated with regen on unclaimed mobs.



I think this is definitely a good assessment. I would add that also using less curing power per heal you are also spending more mana for less throughput. At that level sync probably not a huge issue, but definitely becomes a factor later in the game. This is of course assuming none of the healing goes to overhealing - then all of it is pretty much a hogwash.
#10 Sep 19 2013 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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This is pure speculation based on what I have seen and heard over the last decade+, so don't take this to heart, but the way it was explained to me is that overhealing ruins the ratio of health cured to agro gained, and that overhealing doesn't generate any more or less threat than not overhealing. For example: (numbers are made up, of course)

Tank has 500 / 1000 HP
Heal Tank for 500 HP = Generate 500 Threat
1:1 Ratio of Damage Cured to Threat Received

Tank has 750 / 1000 HP
Heal Tank for 500 HP (250 over heal) = Generate 500 Threat
1:2 Ratio of Damage Cured to Threat Received

So in the latter case, you generated the same amount of threat as the first case, but you gained 2x as much hate PER health point restored. Had you waited 3 more seconds, let the tank eat another attack, and healed him for the full 500 you would have earned the EXACT same amount of threat as in the second case, but at basically half the cost per point. So if you healed consistently in the latter configuration you WILL steal agro before a person using the former configuration because the tank will take that 500 points of DMG during the fight, regardless. The question is, do you heal him 250 points at a time while still taking the 500 threat or do you wait and take the same 500 threat for healing 500 HP. The only thing that changes is your heal to threat ratio.

I have always been told and practiced that you try to keep your tank as close to full without going over too much. A few points here and there are no big loss, but if it is more than 5% then I would just wait one more attack cycle, even if the heal now won't bring the tank back up to 100%, or use a smaller heal that does not go over if it is available. I would rather the tank be at 97% health and my agro be balanced than healing him to 100% constantly and generating agro from health that was swallowed up by the aether.

Please let me know if I am wrong in my thinking, because I would rather have the facts than a hypothesis.
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#11 Sep 19 2013 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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I look at how much damage the tank is having per attack, and know how much my heals do max. Then I pick a point just below that max heal as my "cure now" target.

So in the lower dungeons, a MRD tank won't have that much more than 600 HP. I set my mental marker as 400 HP and won't lob a cure until he dips below that point. He's unlikely to take more than 400 damage in a single critical attack anyway.

The tank won't be capped when the fight is over, but he'll certainly regen to full before we get to the next fight.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 11:14am by Catwho
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#12 Sep 19 2013 at 12:57 PM Rating: Default
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Thanks for the info! It at least gives a better idea of what is happening when I'm healing and with this newfound knowledge I will be able to conquer TEH WORLD!

... or just be a better healer. >.>; Much appreciated and thanks for all the helpful advice :)

edit: Why would Cleric Stance generate more Threat? Nothing in its description says it would do so, and tootips for Savage Blade and Skull Sunder mention increased Enmity.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 12:00pm by Jjnnyrr
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#13 Sep 19 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
So, I am "mining" my own business out by CopperBell and a Lancer shouts out for anyone who wants to run CB since he's been waiting forever on the Duty Finder.
Isn't the average wait time for damage dealers something like half an hour? Little ***** are spoiled.
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#14 Sep 19 2013 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
Thanks for the info! It at least gives a better idea of what is happening when I'm healing and with this newfound knowledge I will be able to conquer TEH WORLD!

... or just be a better healer. >.>; Much appreciated and thanks for all the helpful advice :)

edit: Why would Cleric Stance generate more Threat? Nothing in its description says it would do so, and tootips for Savage Blade and Skull Sunder mention increased Enmity.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 12:00pm by Jjnnyrr


He wasn't saying that it generated more threat per se, but that it would take more casts in Cleric Stance to achieve the same goal. Let us say you want to heal 1000 HP without the stance you have to cast 2x 500 HP heals = 1000 threat (assuming 1:1). To reach the same goal with stance on you have to cast 3x 400 HP heals = 1200 threat (again, assuming a 1:1). So in stance it takes 3 heals at 400 a piece for a total of 1000 HP returned (200 over heal) and 1200 threat returned to you. Out of stance it takes 2 heals at 500 a piece for a total of 1000 HP returned (0 over heal) and 1000 threat returned to you.

So in stance you have to cast 3 spells, waste 200 HP, use more MP, and generate 200 more threat because even though the HP is not healed the threat is still generated (assumed). Out of stance you have to cast 2 spells, nothing is wasted, MP is conserved, and 200 threat has been eliminated. You will live longer, have more MP, and the tank will be none the wiser.
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#15 Sep 19 2013 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
So, I am "mining" my own business out by CopperBell and a Lancer shouts out for anyone who wants to run CB since he's been waiting forever on the Duty Finder.
Isn't the average wait time for damage dealers something like half an hour? Little sh*ts are spoiled.


I remember the first time I leveled up THF to 75 in FFXI.

I'd have been overjoyed at a thirty minute wait for a party. Smiley: glare
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#16 Sep 19 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
So, I am "mining" my own business out by CopperBell and a Lancer shouts out for anyone who wants to run CB since he's been waiting forever on the Duty Finder.
Isn't the average wait time for damage dealers something like half an hour? Little sh*ts are spoiled.


I remember the first time I leveled up THF to 75 in FFXI.

I'd have been overjoyed at a thirty minute wait for a party. Smiley: glare


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#17 Sep 19 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Default
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Azoria wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
Thanks for the info! It at least gives a better idea of what is happening when I'm healing and with this newfound knowledge I will be able to conquer TEH WORLD!

... or just be a better healer. >.>; Much appreciated and thanks for all the helpful advice :)

edit: Why would Cleric Stance generate more Threat? Nothing in its description says it would do so, and tootips for Savage Blade and Skull Sunder mention increased Enmity.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 12:00pm by Jjnnyrr


He wasn't saying that it generated more threat per se, but that it would take more casts in Cleric Stance to achieve the same goal. Let us say you want to heal 1000 HP without the stance you have to cast 2x 500 HP heals = 1000 threat (assuming 1:1). To reach the same goal with stance on you have to cast 3x 400 HP heals = 1200 threat (again, assuming a 1:1). So in stance it takes 3 heals at 400 a piece for a total of 1000 HP returned (200 over heal) and 1200 threat returned to you. Out of stance it takes 2 heals at 500 a piece for a total of 1000 HP returned (0 over heal) and 1000 threat returned to you.

So in stance you have to cast 3 spells, waste 200 HP, use more MP, and generate 200 more threat because even though the HP is not healed the threat is still generated (assumed). Out of stance you have to cast 2 spells, nothing is wasted, MP is conserved, and 200 threat has been eliminated. You will live longer, have more MP, and the tank will be none the wiser.


Ah, I see how I misread that now. Makes more sense. Though my thinking in using Cleric Stance (and I am probably wrong in this) is that I sort of approach the way Catwho ( /flail wave to Catwho!~) in that I see how much my Cures are healing for, and then cast when his total damage exceeds my average total heal (not accounting for a crit). By using a smaller heal, I can heal sooner by not having to wait until he takes more damage as would be the case if I were waiting cast a regular heal using this stategy.

to illustrate (numbers are made up):
Cleric Stance On:
Tank takes 50 per hit >>> I can heal for 96 HP per cast >>> I can heal him after two hits

Cleric Stance Off:
Tank takes 50 per hit >>> I can heal for 120 HP per cast >>> I can heal after three hits (because I'm trying to avoid over-curing)

From my point of view, it seems like using Cleric Stance (disregarding issues of Threat for the moment) would offer a better safety net to operate within.

Depending on how Threat actually works, more frequent casts could prove detrimental but would have to be weighed against how close to "full" you want to keep the Tank.

Catwho wrote:
I remember the first time I leveled up THF to 75 in FFXI.

I'd have been overjoyed at a thirty minute wait for a party. Smiley: glare


Ah... leveling DRG in FFxi... oh how I remember my time in Jeuno fondly.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 12:56pm by Jjnnyrr
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"The problem with black and white, is that is turns grey at all the points of contact."

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#18 Sep 19 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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You definitely get the gist of it all... now we just need actual facts regarding how threat is handled and whether or not the overflow from healing still generates threat or if it is only the amount that is healed. This, I think, is the bit that causes the whole house of cards to fall down because we just don't have all the facts yet, especially with regards to over healing. We make a lot of assumptions based on prior experience in previous games, intuition and common sense... but all of that can be flat out wrong.
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#19 Sep 19 2013 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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dustinfoley wrote:
I was always under the assumption that it worked like this, assuming you need to cure 1k hp:

Without cleric stance:
Cure1 for - 500x 2 = 1000 enmity

With cleric stance:
Cure1 for 400x3 = 1200 enmity

There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example. Say you need 900 hp;

1) Is 2x cure 1 = 1000 enmity,
2) 900 enmity and over cure doesnt count,
3) do heals count as enmity per cast then a small % of amount healed. AKA each cure 1 is = 200 emnity + 10% of ammount cured for (200 + 50)

Until we know exactly how enmity works its hard to say you or the tank is right honestly. I would err on the side of having stronger cures if someone was squishy so i dont have to heal as often, but thats me.

The only thing I know for sure, is that regen is the bane of my whm existence. You think you are being smart by giving it to tanks before a pull, then they run in and regen gives you agro instead of the tanks. If there was one CNJ spell that needs fixed its the agro associated with regen on unclaimed mobs.


This is the way cures work:

  • Unlike every other MMO in existance, overhealing *DOES* generate threat. If you see that number, you generate that threat.
  • Every point of HP healed is 0.5 threat. If you heal for 1,000 you generate 500 threat. If you heal for 500, you generate 250, etc. This is universal for all classes.
  • 1 damage = 1 threat. Simple, universal. Until level 30 for Warriors (40 for Paladins) they have to rely on Shield Lob/Tomahawk (3x), Savage Blade/Skull Sunder (3x), and Butcher's Block/Rage of Halone (5x) for threat output as they don't have their overall 2x stances yet. It is *INCREDIBLY* easy to rip hate off of a tank even post stances due to overhealing if you're not paying attention.
  • There is no sliding scale or exponential gain of threat. Everything is linear, static, and straightforward.
  • Considering the tests included up to an hour of spamming cures between two healers to attempt to see if there is a ceiling (which lead to nearly 5 million threat and it still didn't cap) there's no known 'hard' cap and more than likely lies within a 32 or 64 bit integer.


You need the largest cures you can find because that's what's going to extend your mana pool later on. Your tanks need to learn how to generate threat and healers need to learn to give them a second. Like all MMOs, it gets easier as you level with more tools at everyone's disposal.

dustinfoley wrote:
There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example


No, there isn't any more 'testing' needed in enmity because it's been tested since 1.0, since all betas phases for ARR, and on launch. Absolutely nothing has changed and about the only thing that will is the fact that overhealing need to not generate hate.

Damage needs formulas figured out, healing needs a define one. Further breakdown of stats and comparisons are always welcome. However, threat in FFXIV has always stayed the same since testing began by Kanican (FFXI's leading theorycrafter btw) back in 1.18 it hasn't changed at all. Until they announce they're alter threat mechanics it won't change.

I do agree, however, that Regen pre-fight needs to register as the tank's threat and not yours.
#20 Sep 19 2013 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
From my point of view, it seems like using Cleric Stance (disregarding issues of Threat for the moment) would offer a better safety net to operate within


Using your numbers: without Cleric Stance, tank health varies between Full and Full - 120, Full and Full - 96 with. That's an average difference of 12 HP (10% of a no-stance heal). In order to keep the tank's health 10% of a heal higher on average, you are hindering your burst throughput and mana efficiency by 20%. If you have the mana in excess, you could contribute more to the likelihood of survival by helping to DPS. (Death is the best CC)
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#21 Sep 19 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Default
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Viertel wrote:


This is the way cures work:

  • Unlike every other MMO in existance, overhealing *DOES* generate threat. If you see that number, you generate that threat.
  • Every point of HP healed is 0.5 threat. If you heal for 1,000 you generate 500 threat. If you heal for 500, you generate 250, etc. This is universal for all classes.
  • 1 damage = 1 threat. Simple, universal. Until level 30 for Warriors (40 for Paladins) they have to rely on Shield Lob/Tomahawk (3x), Savage Blade/Skull Sunder (3x), and Butcher's Block/Rage of Halone (5x) for threat output as they don't have their overall 2x stances yet. It is *INCREDIBLY* easy to rip hate off of a tank even post stances due to overhealing if you're not paying attention.
  • There is no sliding scale or exponential gain of threat. Everything is linear, static, and straightforward.
  • Considering the tests included up to an hour of spamming cures between two healers to attempt to see if there is a ceiling (which lead to nearly 5 million threat and it still didn't cap) there's no known 'hard' cap and more than likely lies within a 32 or 64 bit integer.


You need the largest cures you can find because that's what's going to extend your mana pool later on. Your tanks need to learn how to generate threat and healers need to learn to give them a second. Like all MMOs, it gets easier as you level with more tools at everyone's disposal.

dustinfoley wrote:
There still needs to be a lot of testing enmity wise in this game before we can say anything, for example


No, there isn't any more 'testing' needed in enmity because it's been tested since 1.0, since all betas phases for ARR, and on launch. Absolutely nothing has changed and about the only thing that will is the fact that overhealing need to not generate hate.

Damage needs formulas figured out, healing needs a define one. Further breakdown of stats and comparisons are always welcome. However, threat in FFXIV has always stayed the same since testing began by Kanican (FFXI's leading theorycrafter btw) back in 1.18 it hasn't changed at all. Until they announce they're alter threat mechanics it won't change.

I do agree, however, that Regen pre-fight needs to register as the tank's threat and not yours.


Forgive the ignorance in my questions, I"m just trying to figure this out.

So anywho, From what I've seen (albiet at lvl 24 in Halatali) my regular Cures are landing for something in the neighborhood of 200 HP (w/o Cleric Stance). According to the facts you listed, that means I generate 100 Threat per cast (disregarding for the moment any Offensive Spells or other abilities I may be using).

I have noticed (and I now wish I had written it down the last time I looked) that DDs seem to hit for about 40 - 50(ish) dmg (not including crits), so assuming we are all perfoming actions at the same rate of 2.5 seconds and assuming that the tank is keeping up on his end of Threat generation, it sounds as though Healers will often end up second on a Threat list.

So wouldn't that mean that using reduced Cures via Cleric Stance would actually be beneficial in terms of party dynamics by reducing the rate at which a Healer climbs the Threat list?
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#22 Sep 19 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I never understood it why some people feel that you must always be perfect. I'm not a high level CNJ by any means, but I was doing my hunting log and my DF popped up. I had on Cleric Stance by mistake since it doesn't click off. The THM gets all ***** that I missed this as we began the dungeon. I clicked it off right away, no attitude, but this THM left soon after probably because of it. This kind of stuff happens all the time. Instead of a friendly reminder without all the drama, people are quick to label you as if you're a moron. I really don't believe that you need to nerf your healing skill to lose threat. Only if you're overcuring should there be a problem. Either that or the tank sucks at doing their job.
#23 Sep 19 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
So wouldn't that mean that using reduced Cures via Cleric Stance would actually be beneficial in terms of party dynamics by reducing the rate at which a Healer climbs the Threat list?


No.

Time your heals better. You don't need to heal every single GCD all the time every time, especially in leveling dungeons. Until overhealing is done away with or hate modifiers are changed for tanks just pray you get better tanks.

You need to get used to dealing those semi-large heals and the tanks need to learn how to out-pace them. You'll be praying for those large heals when tanks have 5K+ health and your Cures are doing 900~ with Cure II doing 1300~.

Cleric stance is for damaging abilities and damaging abilities only.

EDIT: Your other question.

Until the tank gets more tools you're going to end up second on the list if the tank's gear sucks, the tank is terrible, or you're overhealing out of a fear of losing the tank. I leveled PLD first and am on Titan HM: the overhealing aggro eventually becomes an absolute *nightmare* at times.

At that level your tank doesn't have access to Rage of Halone (5x modifier) but at least has Shield Lob on the pull (3x) and Savage Blade combo (3x). Damage numbers on the combos around that time are 50-60~ for Fast followed by a 100~ Savage for a total of close to 350 threat within 2 GCDs. It all depends on the tank's gear, their suitability towards being a tank, and whether you're spamming heals just to spam them.

There's also the fact that GLD/PLD doesn't deal well with burst on adds at all. We're perfect for long fights once the initial burst opening is done, but with multiple enemies (though we *can* do it) is much rougher than a MRD/WAR's capabilities. It all depends on how good of a tank your tank is in terms of mentality and playing ability.


Edited, Sep 19th 2013 5:00pm by Viertel
#24 Sep 19 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
Forgive the ignorance in my questions, I"m just trying to figure this out.

So anywho, From what I've seen (albiet at lvl 24 in Halatali) my regular Cures are landing for something in the neighborhood of 200 HP (w/o Cleric Stance). According to the facts you listed, that means I generate 100 Threat per cast (disregarding for the moment any Offensive Spells or other abilities I may be using).

I have noticed (and I now wish I had written it down the last time I looked) that DDs seem to hit for about 40 - 50(ish) dmg (not including crits), so assuming we are all perfoming actions at the same rate of 2.5 seconds and assuming that the tank is keeping up on his end of Threat generation, it sounds as though Healers will often end up second on a Threat list.

So wouldn't that mean that using reduced Cures via Cleric Stance would actually be beneficial in terms of party dynamics by reducing the rate at which a Healer climbs the Threat list?

No, it doesn't make sense. Just turn it off and don't cast a cure when the tank is only missing 100 hp. You don't have to let them get to 10% to get the most out of your heals and unless you're spamming cure and getting crits right at the start a tank will out threat you. Later on the mana you expend trying to lessen a few early heals will hurt you more than just managing the initial curing. Honestly in the initial dungeons it doesn't matter, but it's better to develop good habits and habits that will last into your 50s when you can.
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#25 Sep 19 2013 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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Anakte wrote:
No, it doesn't make sense. Just turn it off and don't cast a cure when the tank is only missing 100 hp. You don't have to let them get to 10% to get the most out of your heals and unless you're spamming cure and getting crits right at the start a tank will out threat you. Later on the mana you expend trying to lessen a few early heals will hurt you more than just managing the initial curing. Honestly in the initial dungeons it doesn't matter, but it's better to develop good habits and habits that will last into your 50s when you can.


I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your post only vaguely addresses my question.

Example:

Tanks Total HP is 500. Each hit he takes causes 50 dmg.

Cleric Stance Off:
I heal for 120 HP. I generate 60 Threat per cast and I want to heal keep my Tank closer to full without wasting the heal or generating excess Threat.

Tank takes a total of 150 dmg (total HP of Tank at this moment is 350). I cast heal for 120 HP (total HP of Tank at this moment is 470).

Cleric Stance On:
I heal for 96 HP. I generate 48 Threat per cast. (same as above)

Tank takes a total of 100 dmg (total HP of Tank at this moment is 400). I cast a heal for 96 HP (total HP of Tank at this moment is 498)

All other variable aside, that total HP of the Tank after a heal is what I'm considering. Isn't it safer to be able to both not let the Tank drop as far down in damage and to keep him closer to full? I know this is an overly simplified example, but this is what I'm talking about when I talk about being safer.

Also, I don't let Tanks drop to 10% unless something in the fight has gone pear-shaped, like unexpected adds or party members accidentally grabbing targets.

And my goal isn't to develop habits of any kind, but to develop a strategy that works for the party. Not all mobs hit the same, and in AoE tanking, I find the Tank takes smaller hits and goes down in damage differently than say the big boss fights that hit like a hammer. Being able to alter the strength of my cures allows me to adjust to the sceneario rather than just follow a formula.

This is my thinking on the matter, anywho.

Edit: I missed Viertel's post somehow, which offers some clarity to what I was asking.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 2:20pm by Jjnnyrr

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 2:24pm by Jjnnyrr
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#26 Sep 19 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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hmm if we can generate more hate when overheal. Does that means that Critical heal, when it's not needed is actually harmfull for you because it generate more hate.

In that case, healer will have to avoid + critical hit stats like plague...
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#27 Sep 19 2013 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
All other variable aside, that total HP of the Tank after a heal is what I'm considering. Isn't it safer to be able to both not let the Tank drop as far down in damage and to keep him closer to full? I know this is an overly simplified example, but this is what I'm talking about when I talk about being safer.


No.

You heal as needed, only when it is needed, and when it's called for. There is no solution and purposely nerfing yourself via "avoiding crit" or using Cleric Stance on purpose, or other such nonsense is not an answer.

You heal when you need to. Period.

Secondly, no one has seriously stated to let a tank drop to 10% because that's 3/4 heals your level to catch back up. Look at his health, look at how much you heal for, and do the math.

It isn't that hard, so stop trying to make it so.

Finally, overhealing aggro occurs when you're indiscriminately casting spells, NONSTOP, for a long period of time. If you aren't spamming Medica every GCD or slamming that tank with your highest cure every GCD it isn't an issue.

And if it is, find a better tank.

Pryssant wrote:
In that case, healer will have to avoid + critical hit stats like plague...


/facepalm

Yes, please, go ahead and do that. I'm sure it'll work out wonderfully.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 5:53pm by Viertel
#28 Sep 19 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I wouldn't stay in Cleric Stance even as a way to mitigate hate.

What you should pay attention to is the enemy list. By default it's located in the center left of the screen just below the party member list. Next to the name of every monster in the list is a colored shape that represents the amount of hate you have from a mob.

If it's a green circle, you have nothing to fear, so you can cast cure to your heart's content. A yellow up-pointing triangle means you are starting to push it. An orange down-pointing triangle means you're on the verge of grabbing hate. A huge cure at this point might get you in trouble. And a red square means the mob is coming to get you.

You can use this indicator to guide you on how you should pace your cures. Every tank is different so you have to remain adaptable to any situation you find yourself in.
#29 Sep 19 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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If you really want to ***** with the threat table: use Cleric Stance to actually do damage, not to scope max heal numbers. 1 point of damage = 1 point of heal = 1 threat, so like the above poster said: kill the mob if you can without jeopardizing the success of the party. Frankly I find Cleric Stance dancing one of the more fun mechanics of the healing classes. :)
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#30 Sep 19 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Default
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
Example:

Tanks Total HP is 500. Each hit he takes causes 50 dmg.

Cleric Stance Off:
I heal for 120 HP. I generate 60 Threat per cast and I want to heal keep my Tank closer to full without wasting the heal or generating excess Threat.

Tank takes a total of 150 dmg (total HP of Tank at this moment is 350). I cast heal for 120 HP (total HP of Tank at this moment is 470).

Cleric Stance On:
I heal for 96 HP. I generate 48 Threat per cast. (same as above)

Tank takes a total of 100 dmg (total HP of Tank at this moment is 400). I cast a heal for 96 HP (total HP of Tank at this moment is 498)

All other variable aside, that total HP of the Tank after a heal is what I'm considering. Isn't it safer to be able to both not let the Tank drop as far down in damage and to keep him closer to full? I know this is an overly simplified example, but this is what I'm talking about when I talk about being safer.


Isn't the above an example of the below?

Viertel wrote:
You heal as needed, only when it is needed, and when it's called for. There is no solution and purposely nerfing yourself via "avoiding crit" or using Cleric Stance on purpose, or other such nonsense is not an answer.

You heal when you need to. Period.


Maybe that's where I'm confused, because it seems to me that in the example I used, its exactly what you are stating.

Edit: Save that I am allowing myself the option to cast Cure sooner so the Tank doesn't fall as far down in damage, so that he in turn is able to survive a critical hit when it comes.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 3:00pm by Jjnnyrr
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#31 Sep 19 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Two things:

First, there is almost nothing in the game that is going to do 80% of the tanks health in damage in the time it takes you to cast cure, which is essentially what you're concerned about. If your tank is ever taking that much damage, then your group is going to fail no matter what you do, or it's an attack that is not designed to be survivable.

Second, this is an issue that will resolve itself. Once you get to Brayflox, at the latest, your parties will either wipe because you are not able to keep them up due to the lower level of healing per second with this technique or your parties will wipe because you are out of mana from using the far less mana efficient method of this technique.
#32 Sep 19 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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Either I failed WHM lessons in FFXI (or not), overhealing almost never acquired aggro on me. This became evident if you helped heal a group that was leveling. If you wanted to tank the mob, you had to heal members who had HP deficits. Healing someone at full may have generated enmity but ever so slight.

Or, if you're in Yuhtunga fighting goblins. One uses a bomb at high HP = lots of damage (if not deaths). WHM uses curaga 2 + divine seal = everything is stuck to him for the rest of the fight.

That said, I think overhealing actually does generate a substantial amount of enmity in this game. Medica 2 spam will guarantee a WHM a tank role whether he wants it or not!

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 8:40pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#33 Sep 19 2013 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:


Pryssant wrote:
In that case, healer will have to avoid + critical hit stats like plague...


/facepalm

Yes, please, go ahead and do that. I'm sure it'll work out wonderfully.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 5:53pm by Viertel



Please elaborate, we've been talking about how hate is matched with the number of HP recovered, even if it's an over-heal.

So if you crit you Cure, you're actually producing more hate than a normal hitting cure. And most Crit heal will make you over healing by a lot.

How many healer wait for the tank to be in need of the number of HP a crit cure produce before actually curing?
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#34 Sep 19 2013 at 8:09 PM Rating: Default
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imbtrthnur wrote:
Two things:

First, there is almost nothing in the game that is going to do 80% of the tanks health in damage in the time it takes you to cast cure, which is essentially what you're concerned about. If your tank is ever taking that much damage, then your group is going to fail no matter what you do, or it's an attack that is not designed to be survivable.

Second, this is an issue that will resolve itself. Once you get to Brayflox, at the latest, your parties will either wipe because you are not able to keep them up due to the lower level of healing per second with this technique or your parties will wipe because you are out of mana from using the far less mana efficient method of this technique.


I guess I see it like this:

(The illustration below is to represent a Tank's HP bar, the X's being remaining HP and the _ being HP lost to damage)
I am assuming that "healing when needed" would optimally be at the point when the maximum amount of your heal spell would go towards healing and not be wasted by an over-cure. That said...

Why would you leave your Tank's HP here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx___________]

When you have the option to keep him here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________]

In Cleric Stance, the second example is when you would be able to cast Cure, which seems more efficient (and safe) for the party as a whole. And when I claim to know this, it is in fact because I switch back and forth between Cleric Stance as needed, depending on the nature of the fight. The examples as shown are literally how it works.

By your argument that nothing is going to do 80% damage as was illustrated in my previous example, wouldn't it then be better to be that much further ahead? What is the harm is maintaining a fuller HP bar on the tank?

And yes, I haven't done anything higher than Halatali, but I doubt my perspective on the matter is any different. The strategies used may change, but I feel certainty in how I view the scenario.

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 7:16pm by Jjnnyrr
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#35 Sep 19 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
The problem is that you are nerfing your ability to handle emergency situations. Cleric stance has a 5 second CD after you use it. Imagine a situation where you had just turned it on(since you did say you are turning it on and off as needed). The tank walks into an aoe and gets rocked. He is very low health and because you have cleric stance your heals are not enough to pick up the tank high enough before the next wave of hits and dies.

You should never purposely nerf your healing because of situations like that, especially if there is a CD before you can un-nerf yourself.
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#36Jjnnyrr, Posted: Sep 19 2013 at 9:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Its seems as though this argument would support my suggestion. The concern seems to be a choice between A) working from the bottom of a Tank's HP well (as seems to be advocated by those who disagree with my use of Cleric Stance) and B) working from the top of a Tank's HP well as I view the use of Cleric Stance in healing.
#37 Sep 19 2013 at 10:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
I guess I see it like this:

(The illustration below is to represent a Tank's HP bar, the X's being remaining HP and the _ being HP lost to damage)
I am assuming that "healing when needed" would optimally be at the point when the maximum amount of your heal spell would go towards healing and not be wasted by an over-cure. That said...

Why would you leave your Tank's HP here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx___________]

When you have the option to keep him here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________]

Because you're hurting your own MP efficiency by doing that. You're basically cutting your MP pool by 20%. You may not feel it in a lower level dungeon when everything goes perfectly. But then, if everything goes perfectly, you probably don't need to worry about being too high on the hate list from normal Cures. It's when unexpected bad things happen that you may find yourself needing that extra MP.
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#38 Sep 19 2013 at 11:35 PM Rating: Default
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svlyons wrote:

Because you're hurting your own MP efficiency by doing that. You're basically cutting your MP pool by 20%. You may not feel it in a lower level dungeon when everything goes perfectly. But then, if everything goes perfectly, you probably don't need to worry about being too high on the hate list from normal Cures. It's when unexpected bad things happen that you may find yourself needing that extra MP.


Returning to my previous example with the HP bars, let's envision a scenario where the Tank takes a big hit and just watch it play out. For the sake of this example, a few basic elements

Regular Strike = deduct X's (x5)
Critical Strike = deduct X's (x14)
Regular Heals = restore X's (x10)
Cleric Stance Heals = restore X's (x8)

Regular Heals-----------------------------------------Cleric Stance

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_____________] (15)----(19) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_________] *Normal Attack Cycle*

[x___________________________] (01)----(05) [xxxxx_______________________] *Critical Hit*

[xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] (11)----(13) [xxxxxxxxxxxxx_______________] *Cure*

[xxxxxx______________________] (06)----(08) [xxxxxxxx____________________] *Regular Strike*

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx____________] (16)----(16) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx____________] *Cure*

[xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] (11)---(11) [xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] *Regular Strike*

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_______] (21)----(19) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_________] *Cure*

And so on and so forth.

I can concede that full heals have an slight advantage in the amount that is healed, but I would direct your attention to second line (which is kind of the essence of my argument). How many hearts in the party just skipped a beat? Is the tank wising he had updated his will at that point? Is his vulnerability to dying from a hit by an Add just a bit too close for comfort?

MP efficiency matters if you're spamming heals, and so far everyone is in agreement that back-to-back heals is probably only happening in a situation as in the above, and more often than not, it should be avoided. If the fight is dragging out long enough that your MP is out (and you're out of Ethers), I daresay your problems are quickly becoming less of staying alive and more of biting off more than your party could chew.

I would suggest that the difference in heals is negligible, but the margin of safety is considerable. By no means do I expect this to sway anyone, but I would offer as something to ponder. In seven (overly simplified) rounds, regular heals brought the tank precipitously closer to death (and a possible party wipe) versus my suggested use of Cleric Stance. And at the cost of only two points (in example above), which seems like a fair trade for a more reliable Tank HP bar.

And I know this doesn't cover everything and there is a vast array of factors that could probably go for or against my suggestion, but I leave that to eveyone else to consider.

edit: hopefully improved my diagram >.>;;

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 10:38pm by Jjnnyrr

Edited, Sep 19th 2013 10:40pm by Jjnnyrr
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#39 Sep 20 2013 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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imbtrthnur wrote:
First, there is almost nothing in the game that is going to do 80% of the tanks health in damage in the time it takes you to cast cure, which is essentially what you're concerned about. If your tank is ever taking that much damage, then your group is going to fail no matter what you do, or it's an attack that is not designed to be survivable.


Hydra's Triumvirate. Or when he's got Bravery (you can still survive and win even if he got Bravery).

And maybe a lot of other stuff. Toward the end-game contents you will frequently find your PLD Hp wanting and one reason why WAR tank is not that bad because of their uber Hp pool (I have 6,550 without Thrill of Battle and only AK drops).

Jjnnyrr wrote:
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx___________]

When you have the option to keep him here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________]


MP conservation, extra DPS through Aero (don't dish Aero, we killed Hydra with Aero lulz), keeping other aside from a tank alive etc.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 2:23am by Khornette
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#40 Sep 20 2013 at 1:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Two things:

First, your starting point in "Regular Heals vs Cleric Stance" is already a straw man, because no healer who is paying any attention is going to let their tank sit at that HP level. At that level you've already cast a regular heal and topped off or nearly topped off HP. This actually makes the "Cleric Stance" in your example MORE dangerous because for it to make any difference at all you are going to have to leave your tank at the lower HP mark. This is unnecessary and unwise. The threat generation of a little over-curing of even 10% per heal is not going to be enough to pull hate off of a tank unless your tank is in serious trouble, and in that case you are once again not actually going to be able to do much about it.

Second, your example only shows a handful of cherry picked rounds. The bottom line is that you can't keep that up during an entire fight where the tank and/or DPS are taking any serious damage. If you put that into 100 rounds instead of 7, then you'll be out of mana at round 80 while I can last 20 more rounds.

You are hamstringing yourself for no tangible benefit.

I know this can seem like a working strategy at lower levels, but I tanked a boss as WHM in Copperbell when a DPS attacked it before the tank was ready. I ended the fight with over 50% mana. I don't know if you can run out of mana unless you really tried at that level.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 3:42am by imbtrthnur
#41 Sep 20 2013 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here's the problem, you're trying very very hard to justify a playstyle based on the first, simplest dungeon out there, and a lot of incorrect assumptions. If you really need to think this hard and are fighting this hard to justify this position about healing this dungeon, and I'm not trying to be mean, maybe you should consider a non-healing class for the rest of the game until you feel more comfortable with the mechanics of this game.

The simple fact is, if you let your tank get to 400/500 health.. the world doesn't end! You don't have to heal them the second you're able, and maybe THAT is why you're concerned with threat. Let the tank do his job, get initial aggo, then heal. Your heals do half enmity, his damage to multiple times the enmity, stop over thinking it.
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#42 Sep 20 2013 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Khornette wrote:
imbtrthnur wrote:
First, there is almost nothing in the game that is going to do 80% of the tanks health in damage in the time it takes you to cast cure, which is essentially what you're concerned about. If your tank is ever taking that much damage, then your group is going to fail no matter what you do, or it's an attack that is not designed to be survivable.


Hydra's Triumvirate. Or when he's got Bravery (you can still survive and win even if he got Bravery).

And maybe a lot of other stuff. Toward the end-game contents you will frequently find your PLD Hp wanting and one reason why WAR tank is not that bad because of their uber Hp pool (I have 6,550 without Thrill of Battle and only AK drops).


Health pool means absolutely nothing against mitigation, however, which always triumphs. Part of me wants to assume you guys were just lazy with not using a soaker for Hydra, but then another part *knows* it's **** good practice for healers for Titan HM when they need to do even more healing than that.

Besides that, you're right as there are more than a few abilities that you can't avoid that hit hard usually and *incredibly* hard the worst case scenario -- you get crit. It's only happened *once* but when I was crit by Titan for 5,250 on rage table I slammed invincible as fast as I could. Awareness was already down otherwise it wouldn't have been an issue, but 5,250 of a 5,780 health is dangerous as sh*t.

It's a false blanket statement to state nothing can do almost 90% of a tank's health (not directed at you obviously). The abilities are *there* and they have potential but with mitigation and the already low chance for bosses to crit it doesn't become an issue most of the time. There are clencher moments though and it's really what makes endgame dynamics fun and worth it. As long as it doesn't become like WoW's mid-WotLK shift where everything needs to do that every swing on a tank or FFXI's do ALL the damage in all AoE all the time we're good.

Khornette wrote:
Jjnnyrr wrote:
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx___________]

When you have the option to keep him here?
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________]


MP conservation, extra DPS through Aero (don't dish Aero, we killed Hydra with Aero lulz), keeping other aside from a tank alive etc.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 2:23am by Khornette


Yeah, healer DPS when not needing to heal is always really good. It may not be the greatest amount of damage but people don't realize that the raw magic damage healers have in cleric stance is incredibly good for Aero.

Leveling's where you can see a much faster clear if you plan ahead. Open the fight with CStance + Thunder and Aero on the first monster. Switch out and toss a cure (which should easily top off a medium/light geared tank). CStance + Thunder & Aero again on second, then switch out and toss a heal. Repeat for all adds. It adds *tremendous* killing power over the length of the instance simply due to stat swapping and that % modifier that goes along with it. Eventually I think you may lose Thunder out when going WHM (can't remember or not as I barely get time away from tanking Gawuda and Titan), but even just Aero itself is a good usage and habit to get into.

The faster that sh*t dies, the less time you have to worry about overhealing or a tank dying or some such nonsense.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 10:14am by Viertel
#43 Sep 20 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jjnnyrr wrote:
[quote=svlyons]
Regular Strike = deduct X's (x5)
Critical Strike = deduct X's (x14)
Regular Heals = restore X's (x10)
Cleric Stance Heals = restore X's (x8)

Regular Heals-----------------------------------------Cleric Stance

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_____________] (15)----(19) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_________] *Normal Attack Cycle*

[x___________________________] (01)----(05) [xxxxx_______________________] *Critical Hit*

[xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] (11)----(13) [xxxxxxxxxxxxx_______________] *Cure*

[xxxxxx______________________] (06)----(08) [xxxxxxxx____________________] *Regular Strike*

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx____________] (16)----(16) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx____________] *Cure*

[xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] (11)---(11) [xxxxxxxxxxx_________________] *Regular Strike*

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_______] (21)----(19) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_________] *Cure*




You have one big, flaw, and that is assuming you would cast at the same time for both. In real life it would be more like this:
Regular Heals-----------------------------------------Cleric Stance
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_____________] (15)----(15) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_____________] *Normal Attack Cycle*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXX________] (20)----(18) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX__________] *Cure*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXX___] (25)----(21) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX_______] *Normal Attack Cycle + Cure*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________] (20)----(18) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX_________] *NAC + CS Cure*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXXX___] (25)----(22) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX_______] * + Cure*
[xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx________] (20)----(20) [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXX________] *NAC + CS cure*


Do you see the pattern? I see 3 x 5 heart heals, and 5x3 heart heals. overal, threat is about even, but CS cleric is spaming heals on one tank and has no room to heal others, is using 40% more mp, and is keeping the tank at a lower average hp.
#44 Sep 20 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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You don't even really need to go that far Dustin. Just look at what he's posting for a heal in Cleric stance.

80%.

This is a fallacy. You do *NOT* do 80% of your heal in cleric stance. You're closer to actually 50% due to the fact that your MND and INT shift and your INT, even at level 15 (and MUCH more so later on) is quickly outpaced by your MND. More than likely you're 20~ points behind in the INT department and THEN apply that debuff.

In Halati with a green level 20 staff (at level 21) my Cure does around 220-230. If I don't actually exit CStance (latency issue, hitting too soon after casting, etc.) then my heals actually do closer to 110-120. That's a major reduction.

Bottom line is this: either learn how to time your heals better outside of cleric stance or, as someone else above stated, you need to play a different class.

And to the poster stating you should shy away from crit due to overhealing aggro all I have to say is this:

El. Oh. El.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 10:32am by Viertel
#45 Sep 20 2013 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
And to the poster stating you should shy away from crit due to overhealing aggro all I have to say is this:

El. Oh. El.




Pretty much this. Scholars scale with crit so much more than th ey do with anything else because when you get a crit heal with adloquiem, the shield gets doubled off the crit heal. For example:

Normal heal 100 Shield 100

Crit heal 150 Shield 300

I'm not too sure about WHMs but for scholars, crit is their bread and butter.
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#46 Sep 20 2013 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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xPriestessx wrote:
I'm not too sure about WHMs but for scholars, crit is their bread and butter.


WHM benefits more from Determination, but crit definitely helps the mana stretch further.
#47 Sep 20 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know that as blm when I spike critical at 1800-2000 over a three second period and take hate away from a tank fighting the Durandal's in Amdapoor Keep they usually go "o.0" and congratulate me Smiley: grin
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#48 Sep 20 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fire crit + instant Fire III crit is a **** **** thing.
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#49 Sep 20 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anakte wrote:
Fire crit + instant Fire III crit is a **** **** thing.


Especially when you Fire I for 450, get firestarter, then start into another Fire I with Astral Fire III active, and at the same time you are casting Fire I, spam the firestarter Fire III button to unleash a 600 Fire I immediately followed by a 1100 free instacast Fire III. Those are my favorite, 2000+ in 3 seconds
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