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Suggestions for improving Dungeons: First-Timers vs. Speed Follow

#1 Sep 20 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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So I've just reached level 50 so as part of the story missions, I had to do Castrum Meridianum which really has me ****** off at the moment. I'm under the belief people are doing these runs for farming the tombstones, but these people don't seem to understand the story mission coincides with it too. So what does this mean? Well for starters, new people aren't experts on the **** zone regardless of the research they could of done. We're not speed running it nor or we happy when people leave you behind because you watched a short cutscene.

Am I just having bad luck or I should I assume this type of behavior from now on? You either become an expert and know the map(that wasn't fully filled in yet) or you get treated like crap by jerks. The worst part of this whole situation is that I really didn't learn anything. It was a cluster of stuff with no explanation given for any of it. Sure I'm going to research it more, but **** this drama ruined my day. I see all the shouts about what people are looking for on my server and they basically want people with experience and gear already.

Basically I'm looking for advice besides just read more online because that's obvious. My real problem is that people are so ignorant of anyone except themselves.



Edited title... a poster asked me to change it.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 4:56pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#2 Sep 20 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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The real shame here is if you were the player that had enough playtime to have already run this (or any) dungeon 100 times, you would instead be the one that is frustrated with first timers. So would I. You might even decide to drop out because you could complete 2-3 speed runs in the same amount time it will take with first timers. I've played enough things in the past to know what it is like on the other side. You probably do too.

You wouldn't at first, because you are a cool guy and you want to be helpful. And you would help people for, let's be generous, 50 runs with patience and a happy attitude. Eventually you hit a few parties were you just can't win. Someone just doesn't get it. Ok wasted time. Meh, move on. But sooner ar later that tiny voice in your head saying that "you could just quit and wait 15 minutes and then get in 3 speed runs" is going to work it's insidious magic and move to the forefront of your brain.

I really like happy, patient people. But I'm not always one myself. What to do, what to do? Since this is about the 50th iteration of this same issue I've seen or heard or experienced myself in-game since launch, maybe it's something that could be addressed by a new in-game feature.

Check box [ ] Speed run

Does that work? Fragmenting the Duty finder into First-Timers and Speed runners? Would you still actually get a party? Don't you need someone in the run that has actually done it, rather than read the guide, to help you through? I generally do. The Duty Finder could try to prioritize speed runners together. Hmm, doesn't sound very functional.

Suggestion: You can only check the Speed Run box after you have run the dungeon 10+ times.

I like the sound of that. About the time your patience runs out you don't have to deal with first-timers any more. Anyone else have feedback for an actual in-game solution to this issue that is is clearly causing frustration to both first-timer and speed runners?

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 2:28pm by Gnu
#3 Sep 20 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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at the least, there should be a Cutscenes checkbox. Because that sh*t gets old really fast. Either let us queue for a CS-less version, or provide more ways to farm Tomestones (already kind of needed)

I don't mind newbies on runs like CM, because its pretty faceroll for the most parts. its the constant interruption by CSes that i find irritating. either let us turn them off or give us more and viable non-story dungeons to run for Tomestones.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 2:14pm by Llester
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#4 Sep 20 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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I believe the daily quests being implemented at a later date may be what you are looking for. Hard to tell yet though.
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#5 Sep 20 2013 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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It is definitely a game mechanics issue. Implementing a time limit always panicks some folks, and including player controlled cutscenes in those time limited instances is going to create a natural friction not just amongst the jerks that are forcing speed runs vs the folks who simple want to know what happened, but also amongst those who need to beat it for the first time to get to endgame and are simply worried that they wont have enough time to finish.

It appears that human tendencies were overlooked by the developers and again, these events were not tested in beta. I have simply come to the realization that I can't get anything done in a pick up group (pug) post-castrum meridianum.

Edited, Sep 20th 2013 1:22pm by Valkayree
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#6 Sep 20 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
When I get to this point in the story, I think I will assemble a FC party to get through it. Or, being a tank, I could just queue up as many times as needed to watch the cutscenes, until I am also able to skip through them without missing anything.
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#7 Sep 20 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
at the least, there should be a Cutscenes checkbox. Because that sh*t gets old really fast. Either let us queue for a CS-less version, or provide more ways to farm Tomestones (already kind of needed)

I don't mind newbies on runs like CM, because its pretty faceroll for the most parts. its the constant interruption by CSes that i find irritating. either let us turn them off or give us more and viable non-story dungeons to run for Tomestones.


Oh, great idea! For any speed runs (10+) ANY player can skip the cutscenes for everyone.


Edited, Sep 20th 2013 2:30pm by Gnu
#8 Sep 20 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey ShadowedgeFFXIV,
Anychance you could rename this thread soemthing along the lines of "Suggestions for improving Dungeons: First-Timers vs. Speed Runners"

I'm considering posting this idea on the official forums and I'd really like to hear some more feedback from ZAM about the pro-cons or modifications to the 10+ runs-unlocks-Speed-Run-check-box idea.
#9 Sep 20 2013 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Gnu wrote:
Hey ShadowedgeFFXIV,
Anychance you could rename this thread soemthing along the lines of "Suggestions for improving Dungeons: First-Timers vs. Speed Runners"

I'm considering posting this idea on the official forums and I'd really like to hear some more feedback from ZAM about the pro-cons or modifications to the 10+ runs-unlocks-Speed-Run-check-box idea.


I like the idea of check boxes. The speed run box will be a big benefit for people. I particularly like the idea of a first run check box. I think that would be great for newer players, they could figure things out together without the pressure of possibly ornery veterans. Would be even better if helpful veterans popped in to help out now and again.
#10 Sep 20 2013 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well they are building a gear check in, maybe they will have a higher gear check for speed runs etc... Or you could specify what gear level you want to be grouped with, chances are the higher gear tier will be a speed run.
#11 Sep 20 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:

I like the idea of check boxes. The speed run box will be a big benefit for people. I particularly like the idea of a first run check box. I think that would be great for newer players, they could figure things out together without the pressure of possibly ornery veterans. Would be even better if helpful veterans popped in to help out now and again.


I was thinking about a "first run" check box. The drawbacks I see are:
1.) A whole group of new players may struggle
2.) It may really restrict the duty finder being able to find a party of 4
Like you say some veterans should be included. That's why I'm thinking the 10+ runs have to be done first.

There's really only a few dungeons that you run 10+ times. Namely for the tombstones. I think players would be willing to put up with first-timers knowing that there is an end in sight.

Adding a gearcheck requirement to the 10+ run requirement is an interesting idea. So you can only check the "Speed Run" box if you meet both requirements.

I'm trying to think about how this would work in the overall scheme of what they are trying to accomplish with the Duty Finder. From the latest interview Yoshida was discussing:
A.) The bonus exp for selecting "Random" in the DF. This would improve matchmaking, where the "Speed Run" box limits it.
B.) Dynamic Bonus EXP for classes that are most needed (for now this is Tanks).
C.) The new Bulletin Board system for finding parties.

It seem like maybe the bulletin board system will actually provide the answer that we are all seeking. The Board would hopefully have a area for Messages and you can specify "Speed Run". That doesn't exclude first timers but should deter them if they are looking to watch CS and learn tactics.

Maybe the Bulletin Board will actually allow you to set your own gear requirements. That will probably result in keeping first timers out of your speed-run party. As someone who is currently in the same boat as the OP, trust me, I don't want to poo-poo on speed runs with my half-informed knowledge. I just want to watch the awesome story related cut-scenes and learn the new dungeon as I go.

Perhaps Speed runners will simply use the Bulletin Board instead of the DF, and that's just problem solved.



#12 Sep 20 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Gnu wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:

I like the idea of check boxes. The speed run box will be a big benefit for people. I particularly like the idea of a first run check box. I think that would be great for newer players, they could figure things out together without the pressure of possibly ornery veterans. Would be even better if helpful veterans popped in to help out now and again.


I was thinking about a "first run" check box. The drawbacks I see are:
1.) A whole group of new players may struggle
2.) It may really restrict the duty finder being able to find a party of 4
Like you say some veterans should be included. That's why I'm thinking the 10+ runs have to be done first.

There's really only a few dungeons that you run 10+ times. Namely for the tombstones. I think players would be willing to put up with first-timers knowing that there is an end in sight.

Adding a gearcheck requirement to the 10+ run requirement is an interesting idea. So you can only check the "Speed Run" box if you meet both requirements.

I'm trying to think about how this would work in the overall scheme of what they are trying to accomplish with the Duty Finder. From the latest interview Yoshida was discussing:
A.) The bonus exp for selecting "Random" in the DF. This would improve matchmaking, where the "Speed Run" box limits it.
B.) Dynamic Bonus EXP for classes that are most needed (for now this is Tanks).
C.) The new Bulletin Board system for finding parties.

It seem like maybe the bulletin board system will actually provide the answer that we are all seeking. The Board would hopefully have a area for Messages and you can specify "Speed Run". That doesn't exclude first timers but should deter them if they are looking to watch CS and learn tactics.

Maybe the Bulletin Board will actually allow you to set your own gear requirements. That will probably result in keeping first timers out of your speed-run party. As someone who is currently in the same boat as the OP, trust me, I don't want to poo-poo on speed runs with my half-informed knowledge. I just want to watch the awesome story related cut-scenes and learn the new dungeon as I go.

Perhaps Speed runners will simply use the Bulletin Board instead of the DF, and that's just problem solved.





I had the same concerns about a first timer check box that you did, couldn't think of a way to implement it. Maybe XP bonuses for veterans if they are willing to help. That will give people incentive to do first timer runs, and the people that are most likely to blow up at new people will avoid it like the plague anyway. Do we know if the Bulletin Board will be server specific? Completely out of left field here, but if the Bulletin Board functions cross server like DF and lets people set requirements then it really is problem solved for speed runs.
#13 Sep 20 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Maybe XP bonuses for veterans if they are willing to help. That will give people incentive to do first timer runs


And the level 50 dungeons?

Quote:
Do we know if the Bulletin Board will be server specific?


It will.

Honestly, if people are spam running dungeons for tomestones and get ****** off because someone is new, then they need to run it with a full premade party. The instant you ask the DF to fill your party for you, you're taking whatever it gives you, and **** you if you don't like it.

I can tell you, here and now, with the Internet as my witness, recorded for all time in the annals of Google: The first time I run Castrum Meridianum, I'm watching all the cutscenes.

Check please.
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#14 Sep 20 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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This is why I don't bother doing instances outside of my Linkshell. It's that type of behavior that messes up coordination. If you're rushing someone who's first time is in that dungeon then let them learn it for god's sake. I just came out of Amp and I dealt with two pricks who pretty much slandered me and my tank, telling me that I sucked as a healer for keeping our tank alive and putting him as priority over DPS when they wanted to speed run the dungeon. Now granted it was my tank's first time running the dungeon and he didn't know the boss mechanics, so I had set up macros for him so I didn't have to type during the fight. Like any boss in the game, we wiped a few times. Now granted our DPS wasn't the brightest of folks. I mean when you stand in line of a golem using Rock Smash and then ***** about the healer not getting to you in time. Then I'm just going to let you die and dance on your body when the fight is over. You can call me whatever name you can think of in the book. But it's common practice to never **** off the person who keeps you alive. The same goes for real life, never **** off the people who handle your food.

As far as speed runs are concerned I think it's just silly. Unless SE purposely implements a Time Attack for dungeons with less mobs, but harder difficulty I don't see any point in doing them in the first place. Play the way you want to play and don't put up with people's crap @ OP. Use your blacklist and surround yourself with good people who are willing to take you one step at a time through the game and help you learn it. Don't feel pressured by punks who just want their gear and flaunt it without having the skills to back it up, or better yet those morons who rely on nothing but gear and say skill means nothing in games like this. It's your adventure, you run it as you see fit. Whether it be alone or with a group of friends you're close with. I hate running dungeons with randoms, because there is always going to be someone who isn't happy, whether the person be you or the people running with you. I'm very glad I'm not on an NA server or I'd have much more to rant about.
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#15 Sep 20 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Maybe XP bonuses for veterans if they are willing to help. That will give people incentive to do first timer runs


And the level 50 dungeons?

Quote:
Do we know if the Bulletin Board will be server specific?


It will.

Honestly, if people are spam running dungeons for tomestones and get ****** off because someone is new, then they need to run it with a full premade party. The instant you ask the DF to fill your party for you, you're taking whatever it gives you, and **** you if you don't like it.

I can tell you, here and now, with the Internet as my witness, recorded for all time in the annals of Google: The first time I run Castrum Meridianum, I'm watching all the cutscenes.

Check please.


LMAO Callinon. Me too, me too.

The Bulletin Board is I think specifically going to be for people wanting to make a premade party, but want to recruit people they don't already know and screen them. I have a hunch it will be server specific. Guess we will know more soon.
#16 Sep 20 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Gnu wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Maybe XP bonuses for veterans if they are willing to help. That will give people incentive to do first timer runs


And the level 50 dungeons?

Quote:
Do we know if the Bulletin Board will be server specific?


It will.

Honestly, if people are spam running dungeons for tomestones and get ****** off because someone is new, then they need to run it with a full premade party. The instant you ask the DF to fill your party for you, you're taking whatever it gives you, and **** you if you don't like it.

I can tell you, here and now, with the Internet as my witness, recorded for all time in the annals of Google: The first time I run Castrum Meridianum, I'm watching all the cutscenes.

Check please.


LMAO Callinon. Me too, me too.

The Bulletin Board is I think specifically going to be for people wanting to make a premade party, but want to recruit people they don't already know and screen them. I have a hunch it will be server specific. Guess we will know more soon.


Yeah I was thinking of the first timer flag as mainly for beginning and lower level players. I got nothing for the higher level dungeons.
#17 Sep 20 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
The real shame here is if you were the player that had enough playtime to have already run this (or any) dungeon 100 times, you would instead be the one that is frustrated with first timers. So would I. You might even decide to drop out because you could complete 2-3 speed runs in the same amount time it will take with first timers. I've played enough things in the past to know what it is like on the other side. You probably do too.


But I wouldn't. Instead, I'd be the guy that stays behind with the new player(s) while the others drop. It's always been like that.
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#18 Sep 20 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I love cut scenes. I can just watch them over and over and over...


Seriously. Relax. You're just adding wrinkles on your face stressing these things.

We've seen what happens to people who take this stuff too seriously. No one wants a remote control in their ***.

Breathe.




Hooooozah!
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#19 Sep 20 2013 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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But I wouldn't. Instead, I'd be the guy that stays behind with the new player(s) while the others drop. It's always been like that.


Which brings up the other problem... filling a party midway through a dungeon is nearly impossible, especially at higher levels.

And the time limit is not your friend on that score either.

Someone leaves, it's pretty much game over.
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#20 Sep 20 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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Hey thanks ShaodowedgeFFXI, hopefully we can get some more ideas for improvements.

I'm thinking now that really we have to wait until the Bulletin Board is implemented before any revisions to the Duty Finder Mechanics will be taken seriously. What are the chances that a thread of this nature on the official forums would actually cause them SE to modify the function of the Bulletin Board in patch 2.1? Wint has said that he has a channel for getting new ideas directly to SE. Maybe he will see this thread.

One of the comments was that EXP is not an incentive for level 50 players. Hmm. How about Gil? They were going to adjust that soon anyway. The Duty finder already knows that you are a first-timer, with bonuses. Just not bonuses that are significant or useful for lvl 50 players. They want people to "Random" the DF. Do you get a bonus for doing a level 20 dungeon that is actually useful for a level 50? That would be a lot of gil.

What else do level 50 players like besides Gil?

Crafting materials? Like pick from a list of decent amount of semi-rare Mats?

Oooh I know, Materia. People will surely help first-times for the rare and coveted Gathering Materia. That probably won't happen because they only want that to come from Spiritbinding. The lore is not right for Materia to be given as a reward.

Still thinking.



Edited, Sep 20th 2013 7:07pm by Gnu
#21 Sep 20 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm so glad I decided to get all my crafting levels up instead of dealing with the crap that is dungeons atm.
I'm quite happy to wait and see what happens next, instead of feeling stressed by all this 'must be first' nonsense.
The game at present isn't conducive to my laid back approach.
I'll wait and see what the patches bring.
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#22 Sep 20 2013 at 6:08 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
But I wouldn't. Instead, I'd be the guy that stays behind with the new player(s) while the others drop. It's always been like that.


Which brings up the other problem... filling a party midway through a dungeon is nearly impossible, especially at higher levels.

And the time limit is not your friend on that score either.

Someone leaves, it's pretty much game over.


Depends, are they being a douche? If so then by all means let them wait in the queue for 2 hours. I got better things to do than stress over people who want to speed run a dungeon. Slow and steady wins the race.
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#23 Sep 20 2013 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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Depends, are they being a douche? If so then by all means let them wait in the queue for 2 hours. I got better things to do than stress over people who want to speed run a dungeon. Slow and steady wins the race.


If a healer leaves because something happened he didn't like... maybe the wrong color butterfly fluttered by him... I'm boned.

It really doesn't matter the reason that someone left. Filling their spot is nearly impossible.
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#24 Sep 21 2013 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
The real shame here is if you were the player that had enough playtime to have already run this (or any) dungeon 100 times, you would instead be the one that is frustrated with first timers. So would I. You might even decide to drop out because you could complete 2-3 speed runs in the same amount time it will take with first timers. I've played enough things in the past to know what it is like on the other side. You probably do too.

You wouldn't at first, because you are a cool guy and you want to be helpful. And you would help people for, let's be generous, 50 runs with patience and a happy attitude. Eventually you hit a few parties were you just can't win. Someone just doesn't get it. Ok wasted time. Meh, move on. But sooner ar later that tiny voice in your head saying that "you could just quit and wait 15 minutes and then get in 3 speed runs" is going to work it's insidious magic and move to the forefront of your brain.

I really like happy, patient people. But I'm not always one myself. What to do, what to do? Since this is about the 50th iteration of this same issue I've seen or heard or experienced myself in-game since launch, maybe it's something that could be addressed by a new in-game feature.


“Reality [...] at every level from photons to philosophical fancies to the consciousness of living organisms was fluid [...]. To break apart and confine this reality into separate categories created by the mind was foolish and futile, much like trying to capture a ray of light inside a dark wooden box. This urge to categorize was the true fall of man [...] the infinite became finite, good opposed evil, thoughts hardened into beliefs, one's joys and discoveries became dreadful certainties, man became alienated from what he perceived as other ways and other things, and, ultimately, divided against himself, body and soul. [...] Always seeking meaning, always making their lives safe and comfortable, human beings do not truly live.”
― David Zindell, The Broken God

Gnu wrote:
Check box [ ] Speed run

Does that work? Fragmenting the Duty finder into First-Timers and Speed runners? Would you still actually get a party? Don't you need someone in the run that has actually done it, rather than read the guide, to help you through? I generally do. The Duty Finder could try to prioritize speed runners together. Hmm, doesn't sound very functional.

Suggestion: You can only check the Speed Run box after you have run the dungeon 10+ times.

I like the sound of that. About the time your patience runs out you don't have to deal with first-timers any more. Anyone else have feedback for an actual in-game solution to this issue that is is clearly causing frustration to both first-timer and speed runners?

Guilds and friends is the in game solution. Any in game measure implemented will segregate people and limit the purpose of duty finder which is to quickly group up with random people due to either not having enough guild/friends online or give people who generally solo a means to advance, without the hassle of shouting for help.

We can choose what transportation we use, which roads we take, what time we travel, and the destination when driving. Imagine if roads & businesses were manufactured to each individual driver. We got have people split up by categories. Seniors,teenagers,blacks, whites, smart people, dumb people, nice people, mean people, slow drivers, fast drivers, good looking people, ugly people, rich people, poor people, learning drivers, seasoned drivers, lazy, motivated, slow learners, fast learners, leaders, and followers, etc.

It all sounds like less stress and more safe, right? In the real world some form of separation is needed for security and safety reasons to your health. But the underlying theme is segregation. And we wonder why there are so many crimes, wars, hate, resource battles, vanity, phobias, depression, and so many other things.

In a video game where community is supposed to thrive and hazards to our real life health is non existent for the most part. You would think this is the one place we can rise above everything and touch people's lives. Everyone has different personalities, knowledge and tendencies. Some can learn faster than others, some don't like to learn and would rather follow, some try their best to learn but it's never fully learned, and some just can't learn. Running a dungeon a hundred times would lead you to think that person should know everything. That's not always the case. And we don't know their situation or ailments until we run with them, do we?

We all lose patience, we're human. But that fiftieth time you ran the dungeon and didn't lose your composure. Might of meant the world to the people you were helping. In that instant, you suspended that person's belief that this is just a game, that the in game character skin you don is a sham. You became their hero. You became their savior. You showed them a better way.
#25 Sep 21 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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I don't see them adding or assisting speed runs, I thought Yoshi said he was against them? Adding a speed run option will make it really hard if not impossible to get a party to like a year to finish the story because no one will be doing the story. I understand if someone has done 50 runs, they're going to get impatient but they've got to understand that new players will be getting to that point of the story all the time. Its terribly rude to force someone to skip cutscenes, especially since this is their story run and they're likely excited by the cutscenes. And you're going to yell at them to hurry up because its wasting a few minutes for you? Come on. My solution is to give many more sources for the tomestones.
#26 Sep 21 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Loris wrote:
I don't see them adding or assisting speed runs, I thought Yoshi said he was against them? Adding a speed run option will make it really hard if not impossible to get a party to like a year to finish the story because no one will be doing the story. I understand if someone has done 50 runs, they're going to get impatient but they've got to understand that new players will be getting to that point of the story all the time. Its terribly rude to force someone to skip cutscenes, especially since this is their story run and they're likely excited by the cutscenes. And you're going to yell at them to hurry up because its wasting a few minutes for you? Come on. My solution is to give many more sources for the tomestones.


People told me to skip CS. I told them. "**** off. I'm enjoying my story." Now this mind you came from a tank. We had 2 of them, so I simply let him die and focused on the other tank. Sent him a tell when the dungeon was over. "Don't **** in my cornflakes because you want to rush, there are new people who do these dungeons. You're not the only one who needs Tomestones so get off your high horse and relax. The tomestones aren't going anywhere."
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My Brayflox's Longstep Final Boss Guide - http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=13785160615194813
My Tanking Guide - http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=297&mid=1378648576133515117
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FF XI - Server: Phoenix
Name: Nakami
LS: VanadielReborn
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