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#27 Sep 27 2013 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Like I jhave stated before the onus is on them to prove innocence. A lot of people in prison claim they were innocent, but the facts say otherwise. SE had its reason, and likely a valid one why this happened.


Ok... how do you do that?

No, seriously... let's follow this "logic" for a second. How do you prove that you didn't sell to someone who bought gil?

This, btw, is the same reason the criminal justice system in the US places the burden of proof on the prosecution. Because proving a negative is always difficult, and usually impossible.

Even if the guy HAD questioned his buyers about the source of their money, who's to say they'd tell the truth?

Who's to say the guy isnt lying his *** off and was involved in buying/selling gil? SE doesnt have to prove you are 100% guilty, just look at salvage bans, where peeps were banned for just being in the salvage ls's whether or not they did the duping. Plus whose to say he didnt care to ask when he sold his stuff in a trade to Xcvrrysi Xfjsu for a million gil?

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 4:41pm by ShadowofaDoubt


i like how in your world, only the bad people ever get accused/prosecuted of wrongdoing. I guess the bad people always get punished and the good people always prosper in that world too. the real world sadly doesn't work like that all the time. you'd do well to experience it, and gain some perspective before talking about things that you clearly don't understand.
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#28 Sep 27 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Default
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Llester wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Like I jhave stated before the onus is on them to prove innocence. A lot of people in prison claim they were innocent, but the facts say otherwise. SE had its reason, and likely a valid one why this happened.


Ok... how do you do that?

No, seriously... let's follow this "logic" for a second. How do you prove that you didn't sell to someone who bought gil?

This, btw, is the same reason the criminal justice system in the US places the burden of proof on the prosecution. Because proving a negative is always difficult, and usually impossible.

Even if the guy HAD questioned his buyers about the source of their money, who's to say they'd tell the truth?

Who's to say the guy isnt lying his *** off and was involved in buying/selling gil? SE doesnt have to prove you are 100% guilty, just look at salvage bans, where peeps were banned for just being in the salvage ls's whether or not they did the duping. Plus whose to say he didnt care to ask when he sold his stuff in a trade to Xcvrrysi Xfjsu for a million gil?

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 4:41pm by ShadowofaDoubt


i like how in your world, only the bad people ever get accused/prosecuted of wrongdoing. I guess the bad people always get punished and the good people always prosper in that world too. the real world sadly doesn't work like that all the time. you'd do well to experience it, and gain some perspective before talking about things that you clearly don't understand.

In the real world everyone spins and lies their *** off to sound like they are wronged, even when guilty as ****.
#29 Sep 27 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Llester wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Like I jhave stated before the onus is on them to prove innocence. A lot of people in prison claim they were innocent, but the facts say otherwise. SE had its reason, and likely a valid one why this happened.


Ok... how do you do that?

No, seriously... let's follow this "logic" for a second. How do you prove that you didn't sell to someone who bought gil?

This, btw, is the same reason the criminal justice system in the US places the burden of proof on the prosecution. Because proving a negative is always difficult, and usually impossible.

Even if the guy HAD questioned his buyers about the source of their money, who's to say they'd tell the truth?

Who's to say the guy isnt lying his *** off and was involved in buying/selling gil? SE doesnt have to prove you are 100% guilty, just look at salvage bans, where peeps were banned for just being in the salvage ls's whether or not they did the duping. Plus whose to say he didnt care to ask when he sold his stuff in a trade to Xcvrrysi Xfjsu for a million gil?

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 4:41pm by ShadowofaDoubt


i like how in your world, only the bad people ever get accused/prosecuted of wrongdoing. I guess the bad people always get punished and the good people always prosper in that world too. the real world sadly doesn't work like that all the time. you'd do well to experience it, and gain some perspective before talking about things that you clearly don't understand.

In the real world everyone spins and lies their *** off to sound like they are wronged, even when guilty as ****.

You're right about that. That's one in a row.

Is it possible the original source of this story was lying his *** off? Absolutely. Is it possible he's not? Yep.

Given SE's history with customer service and their typical handling of situations involving RMT, I would tend to lean on the side of the player as being in the right here. That's not based on anything other than SE's history of horrific customer service and draconian policies.

This, if true, is the equivalent of banning me because I have RMT names on my blacklist and have received tells from them. Guilt by association, ANY association.
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#30 Sep 27 2013 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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Based on the little information in the post:
  • Not a legacy server
  • Quote:
    often before they were available from other crafters
  • Most likely triggered a bot detection
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    specifically HQ electrum gear during the first week, and HQ 2-star jewelry most recently
    Quote:
    Quote:
    Cheatingand Botting. You may not create or use any unauthorized cheats,bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software orhardware designed to modify the Game and gameplay. ...
  • Or took advantage of the last part of 2.1
  • Quote:
    Quote:
    Cheatingand Botting. ... In addition, you may nottake advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.


If they were able to make 8 figures in the course of a few weeks on a new server, they were most likely not getting all of their gil from the wards. As that would require the 30k+ people on the server to basically make 10,000,000 gil collectively, and funnel it through one person. That would be incredible at best, impossible being more than likely. Obviously that kind of gil is available on the legacy servers, but to pull an average of 333 gil per person on a server is a very healthy feat in a 1 month period of time.

Considering 99% of the population will only buy weapons and jewelry, and even then, at the higher levels, you are only going to be able to sell the high end jewelry, and many of the materials involved require one gathering class, one combat job, and at least one crafting class completely leveled (based on the post, they were a Goldsmith).

While what they are saying is possible, it is not likely. Based on the persons reaction, and lack of details (though most crafters don't like giving up how they make money), it is beyond suspicious.

Now do I think that they did something wrong? Meh, don't care.

Am I worried that I will get banned because I craft ALOT, and have an obscene HQ rate? Nope.

This does however point to the fact that if you see a hole in the economy, don't take advantage of it. Report it, and find something else. SE does hit hard with the ban hammer when they want to, and with the current state of their customer service it is a living nightmare to get anything sorted out.
#31 Sep 27 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:

In the real world everyone spins and lies their *** off to sound like they are wronged, even when guilty as ****.


well you managed to figure out something. still rated you down, for using "everyone" because absolutism is ignant
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#32 Sep 27 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Valkayree wrote:
IMFW wrote:
I dont have alot of gil, but i have been selling low level quint materia attached staffs for 100k each, should i be worried? I sold a level 20 staff for 100k should i worry about why a level 20 would have a 100k to blow, it was sold on the market bored. I would hate to get banned!


If you sold it throgh the market board, you should not raise suspicions. Many people are already on their second characters and have 100k from crafting / gathering that they would want to use to buy a good staff to make it easier on their 2nd character. Personally I wouldnt spend that much on a lvl 20 staff, but to each his own. Your profit was legitimate. The only transactions that seem to raise red flags are those that occur multiple times across the trade window or moogle delivery service.



Sweet thats good to know ill just stick to the marketboreds!
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#33 Sep 27 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:

If they were able to make 8 figures in the course of a few weeks on a new server, they were most likely not getting all of their gil from the wards. As that would require the 30k+ people on the server to basically make 10,000,000 gil collectively, and funnel it through one person. That would be incredible at best, impossible being more than likely. Obviously that kind of gil is available on the legacy servers, but to pull an average of 333 gil per person on a server is a very healthy feat in a 1 month period of time.



Not impossible or unlikely at all. Let's assume 1000 people have reached level 50 through the storyline and taken gil for rewards the whole way. That's 200k+ gil per person, or 200mil gil, just from those 1000 people, and they're spending plenty on the market board. There is likely far more gil than that in the economy. For example, people have been selling level III materia for 50k+, and relic weapon precursors for 100k, on Legacy and non-legacy servers alike.

It's well within reason that someone could have made healthy progress towards 9 figures even by now considering the crazy prices at for crafted iLvl70 gear: HQ 2-star gear is going for over 1 mil/piece. It's unlikely this person was exploiting at all, but rather, just understands the (player-driven) economy.

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 5:45pm by Klarus
#34 Sep 27 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Klarus wrote:
rfolkker wrote:

If they were able to make 8 figures in the course of a few weeks on a new server, they were most likely not getting all of their gil from the wards. As that would require the 30k+ people on the server to basically make 10,000,000 gil collectively, and funnel it through one person. That would be incredible at best, impossible being more than likely. Obviously that kind of gil is available on the legacy servers, but to pull an average of 333 gil per person on a server is a very healthy feat in a 1 month period of time.



Not impossible or unlikely at all. Let's assume 1000 people have reached level 50 through the storyline and taken gil for rewards the whole way. That's 200k+ gil per person, or 200mil gil, just from those 1000 people, and they're spending plenty on the market board. There is likely far more gil than that in the economy. For example, people have been selling level III materia for 50k+, and relic weapon precursors for 100k, on Legacy and non-legacy servers alike.

It's well within reason that someone could have made healthy progress towards 9 figures even by now considering the crazy prices at for crafted iLvl70 gear: HQ 2-star gear is going for over 1 mil/piece. It's unlikely this person was exploiting at all, but rather, just understands the (player-driven) economy.

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 5:45pm by Klarus

for your example, that is fairly accurate. Dedicated and focused players only took a week to get their first combat class to 50 and complete the main storyline quest on new servers. That resulted in them obtaining (if they selected the coin instead of the gear) ~275k (Based on how much I made selling mine).

Now assuming for generosity sake, lets say that by now, 20% of the population has made it to that point, so ~6k. That would mean that there was (NPC sales, and side quest gil) 1.6 billion gil in the economy to date on a new server.

For one person would account for 0.6% of the economy. Again, at this point, not completely unreasonable.

Now, to the point I was actually driving at, was how they claim they made it there.

Even using leves (which people are aware of can build up EXP at an unbelievable rate for crafters), they still need shards and crystals, and they need a source for materias. Gathering is the slowest thing to level, and then there is the gear necessary to actually craft the single star gear. Which would require weaver (and possibly leathercrafter) to be leveled.

The vectors begin to add up. There are expenses, and overhead that go with this. Now, to get to the point where you are gaining more gil than you are spending, when attempting to rapidly level is not an easy feat to manage. But, it can be done. Add onto that the person has reached a point where they were able to HQ level 45+ crafts consistently, and craft * items, as those require almost every craft to make the gear necessary to get your stats high enough, plus materia in some cases, the likelihood decreases greatly on a new server.

On an existing server, yes, this is more than possible, as there is already a developed character base, however, with the flood of items on the old servers, the economy has been on an unhealthy tailspin.

But still to my point, it's not that I do or don't believe them, it is that there is not enough information for this to be anymore than a message of "Don't try to hard or you will be banned", which does not appear to be the case in the game. There is something missing from the person's information that prevents anyone from drawing any real conclusions other than the fact selling stuff in the market wards will not get you banned.
#35 Sep 27 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Default
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Seeing some posts on other forums like the official one, where its possible SE is also mass banning due to an exploit of allaghan coinage. These crafters may have been item duping.
#36 Sep 27 2013 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry if you were truly suspended without cause, but from my experience playing other MMOs, typically people that claim to be wrongfully banned, aren't telling the whole truth.
#37 Sep 27 2013 at 5:16 PM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:

[...]
Even using leves (which people are aware of can build up EXP at an unbelievable rate for crafters), they still need shards and crystals, and they need a source for materias. Gathering is the slowest thing to level, and then there is the gear necessary to actually craft the single star gear. Which would require weaver (and possibly leathercrafter) to be leveled.

The vectors begin to add up. There are expenses, and overhead that go with this. Now, to get to the point where you are gaining more gil than you are spending, when attempting to rapidly level is not an easy feat to manage. But, it can be done. Add onto that the person has reached a point where they were able to HQ level 45+ crafts consistently, and craft * items, as those require almost every craft to make the gear necessary to get your stats high enough, plus materia in some cases, the likelihood decreases greatly on a new server.

On an existing server, yes, this is more than possible, as there is already a developed character base, however, with the flood of items on the old servers, the economy has been on an unhealthy tailspin.

But still to my point, it's not that I do or don't believe them, it is that there is not enough information for this to be anymore than a message of "Don't try to hard or you will be banned", which does not appear to be the case in the game. There is something missing from the person's information that prevents anyone from drawing any real conclusions other than the fact selling stuff in the market wards will not get you banned.


If you did all of your low level class quests for all of the tradeskills, you have enough shards to not need to do any extra shard farming to get 1 or 2 tradeskill classes to 50. I was able to get Alchemy and Weaving to 50 like this. In addition, there's a couple other factors people ignore:
- The higher level merchants DO sell higher level normal quality tradeskill gear.
- Depending on the class, the class quests can be either incredibly easy or an incredible PITA. The Weaver 50 class quest does not use ANY materia, for example. Alchemist, on the other hand, asks for Quicktongue III materia (yuck).

It is also not difficult to HQ items at your level past 21 if you identify the points where the Quality requirements jump as you level and upgrade your gear before attempting recipes past those points. Even single class tradeskillers can use Great Strides stacking to significantly increase their quality gains with no cross-class requirements at all. All you need is Great Strides, Standard Touch, Steady Hand, and CP. Everything else is just gravy.

Finally, it's not hard to get more gil while rapidly leveling at all. :P That's part of the benefit of leve leveling. You can get key materials as level rewards as well, so Electrum in week 1 is believable, especially if electrum ore was a reward from a triple turn-in leve. There is always at least 2 leves in town, no matter what, so even if they weren't touching the adventurer classes, they'd still have access to leves for leveling -- it'd just be more restrictive.

#38 Sep 27 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeeeeah.... I'm going to have to agree with not enough information.

I'm all for aggressive tactics to fight rmt. I'm not saying innocents won't/aren't getting caught in the net and that it's not unfortunate. But greater odds are if you find yourself within that net you're sitting anywhere from bona fide RMT to shady tactic strategies. So as far as I'm concerned, drop the hammer.

Now if only they would attack the spammers with the same fervor.
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#39 Sep 28 2013 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I just found this thread here accidently because the same basically happened to me a couple hours ago, its early morning here, i wanted to log into the game and play. Suddenly i get that error message that my account is not registered and on the Mogstation it says that my account is suspended. I got no email whatsoever. I changed my password and wrote 2 tickets (livechat and email support). Sadly here in europe there is no telephone support.

I have played quite a bit in the last couple weeks and been mostly crafting, i just sold alot of armor for about 5-10k gil all each on the market ward, (everything is selling relatively quickly since almost no one else puts HQ armor in our auction house) and some crafting items for other professions like cobalt plates, darksteel nuggets etc. When i logged off yesterday i had about 3.000.000 Gil (and i know crafters who made much more than that with selling alot of 1 and 2 Star items).

Now i have really no idea what lead to the suspension, was it that i was making alot of gil? This would be ridiculous.. i've always been a very honest player and i despise cheaters, botters etc. since i quit a couple games in the past because these kind of players destroyed them for me.

A couple other things come to my mind: Yesterday there was a very annoying goldseller who kept spamming my chat, i have no idea if my blacklist is already filled up but i was just upset and i typed f... y.. to him a couple times.

Then there might be the possibility my account is hacked? On the mogstation only my legacy character showed up (i am not playing it anymore) and when i changed the password my regular characters showed up at first but now are gone again in the Mogstation, its very weird. I also cant login to the lodestone, i get the message that i have to create a character first to use the lodestone.

Edited, Sep 28th 2013 2:39am by GenjuroSM
#40 Sep 28 2013 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good
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TheAnf wrote:

I haven't been suspended or anything I'm just stressing I will be if they are banning ppl for just crafting a lot now..


I haven't seen any obvious RMT players trying out crafting and I don't think they will because it really is a lot of work.

I worry about being reported for gathering/mining in the same area for a long time, when in fact I'm doing it to grind or I want 2 stacks of something.

Edited, Sep 28th 2013 3:22am by TwilightSkye
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#41 Sep 28 2013 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent
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SE loves money. They will not ban subscribers and lose income without good reason. I'm pretty certain the STF have logs of trading and conversations that they examine before swinging the banhammer. Which is why, I am very, very skeptical about these 'innocents' claiming they never bought gil. Because they know as well as we do, that SE will never release private information about individual gilbuyer activities, we will never hear SE's side of the story, so people can spin whatever they like.

In any case, it is good to see SE acting on the gilbuyer problem.
#42 Sep 28 2013 at 5:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Kind of worries me.

It is very easy, as of this post, to have over 5 million gil on a new server without any crafts leveled. There are certain crafting items and materia that are in high demand. The NPC provides the crafting material. The crafters can make their level 55 items, wear them for a few dungeon runs to spirit bond them, and then convert them into materia very easily. Some of the better level 3 materia sells for 150k+ on Migard. Almost all the level 4 materia sells for 200k on Migard.

Investigation should probably be done before without assuming someone is guilty just because of x amount of gil on an account.
#43 Sep 28 2013 at 5:56 AM Rating: Decent
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They are investigating, which is why the suspension and not outright ban.

I think they are checking for person to person trades and dbox deliveries in which only gil, not items, were exchanged, and purchases of unusually high amounts for trash items (e.g. a million gil for a grade 1 materia.)
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#44 Sep 28 2013 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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Thankfully i`m incredibly poor so i can`t even be mistook for a gil buyer lol
#45 Sep 28 2013 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
They are investigating, which is why the suspension and not outright ban.

I think they are checking for person to person trades and dbox deliveries in which only gil, not items, were exchanged, and purchases of unusually high amounts for trash items (e.g. a million gil for a grade 1 materia.)


Makes sense.

It would be easy to flag people who are trading huge quantities of gil to people they don't know.

It would be a little more difficult to flag people who are selling items on the AH for large amounts of gil when the market trend is really low for that item.

I wonder what other tricks RMT use to get under the radar.
#46 Sep 28 2013 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
They should take a few pages from FFXI and add whatever necessary to FFXIV... but I would hate to see the day when SE officials came to my house to see what I was doing in game. lol. I know that's extreme, but so was the banning here.

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#47 Sep 28 2013 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Hmmm.

I guess, don't sell directly to other players? SE wants you to use the market wards, and it seems circumventing them for any reason is, to SE, grounds for investigation and probably cause of RMT activities.


Hmm I wouldn't say "for whatever reason" since moving insane amounts of gil from person to person is pretty suspect and very typical of RMT, which is why even in XI they resorted to buying items from players for the amount you purchased.

Best part though, people on some servers obviously doesn't realize your transaction history shows up for everyone to see so you can spot the gil buyers (and rmt) quite easily ^^, especially for SE because they can just trace it back on an administrative level.

As I'm a 1.0 player and came over with ~34.8 million between my 2 characters I haven't been banned, so there's definitely a few flags people are tripping and it's not SE just going through banning anyone with multi millions.
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#48 Sep 29 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Hmmm.

I guess, don't sell directly to other players? SE wants you to use the market wards, and it seems circumventing them for any reason is, to SE, grounds for investigation and probably cause of RMT activities.


Hmm I wouldn't say "for whatever reason" since moving insane amounts of gil from person to person is pretty suspect and very typical of RMT, which is why even in XI they resorted to buying items from players for the amount you purchased.

Best part though, people on some servers obviously doesn't realize your transaction history shows up for everyone to see so you can spot the gil buyers (and rmt) quite easily ^^, especially for SE because they can just trace it back on an administrative level.

As I'm a 1.0 player and came over with ~34.8 million between my 2 characters I haven't been banned, so there's definitely a few flags people are tripping and it's not SE just going through banning anyone with multi millions.


It's a little different between starting ARR with that much and gaining that much in the last couple of weeks.

The suspended users are almost certainly tripping a flag for gaining that much. There's also probably a difference in criteria between this happening on a legacy server versus a freshly rolled server.
#49 Sep 29 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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With the Legacy accounts, too, they technically knew exactly how much money each account had going in, and it was 90% less than it had coming out of 1.0 due to the adjustments. So someone who had 100 million gil leaving 1.0 got reduced down to ten million gil - if they suddenly had a hundred mil again in a few weeks, it probably raised some eyebrows over at STF.

Edited, Sep 29th 2013 12:04pm by Catwho
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#50 Sep 29 2013 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
I think it's that thread, if you read further on, people claim he was lying and doing some sketchy deals with a mule. Not saying he's guilty, but if any lying is going on, who knows what he was doing.
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#51 Sep 30 2013 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Not everyone who will have been flagged for a temp ban will be guilty of anything untoward.

When I look at my own progress on a non legacy server I can understand why they're flagging people over a certain amount. I'm not a gil hungry player and I admit that and I know others will have a much more targeted plan. Especially if they have had 1.0 experience. But the collective experience of our group does teach me a lot.

A friend sat on all his quest rewards and is sat there on 200k or so. To craft you need gathering classes or a lot of cash to buy mats from other classes. I can see a crafting/gathering group making a lot of cash... Can you sell things like potash? Then spamming dungeons all day, every day might work for some.

All of the things which I can see making money take a certain amount of time and many detract from the other things you then do with them. I'm not saying it's impossible but I can also see why SE will query whether RMT gave players a base from which to level crafting incredibly fast for example. Or to look for potential exploits. I know I'd find it hard to believe anyone on a non legacy server has made more than 2-3m post release completely legitimately. That may just be because I'm not aware of something and I'm happy to concede that but the 'average' player isn't making anything like that kind of money.
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