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Suspended Users Over CraftingFollow

#52 Sep 30 2013 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Glad they are punishing cheaters, sorry if your friend wasn't one.
#53 Sep 30 2013 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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eldelphia wrote:
Not everyone who will have been flagged for a temp ban will be guilty of anything untoward..


No one will ever admit it either so we'll never know the truth.
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#54 Sep 30 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Interesting. I'm not sure whether the person in question is innocent or not because SE has produced no evidence to back up their ban other than the rational conclusion that they must have 'evidence' of something somewhere because they were able to ban this person based on specific sections of their code of conduct or w/e the ****. They didn't just send a blank e-mail saying "You're banned." They clearly had something to inform their decision as to which section of their little code to use when banning the person. Trouble is they'll never reveal the evidence itself and so you're left with pools of commentators who roughly fall into these categories:

1. Square Enix is the best, I hate cheaters, clearly you're a cheater because SE is always right.
2. This player was banned for no reason, Square Enix is the worst, they have horrible customer service, what garbage.
3. I don't care.
4. Based on what's been presented to me as the random "member of the public" I don't have enough to go on to decide for myself one way or the other who is "right".

That's literally all you have. Pools of people taking a position (or none) in a vacuum, some guy who was banned, and SE standing by their "reason" for banning him.

It's all kind of boring really because the person who was banned can't defend himself because SE does kind of have awful customer service and isn't really interested in hearing the defense, and SE is under no obligation to be fair or impartial so they can just let it stand. It's like being hit and killed by lightning. Bad situation? Yes. Recourse? Likely none.

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 12:51pm by Furiousnixon

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 12:54pm by Furiousnixon
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#55 Oct 01 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/63655-Translation-Japanese-to-English?p=1360291&viewfull=1#post1360291

So yeah, even though some will say "SE is just covering their tracks", SE doesn't have a habit of deciding to randomly suspend people, not in the 11 years of XI and they're not starting now.
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#56 Oct 01 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/63655-Translation-Japanese-to-English?p=1360291&viewfull=1#post1360291

So yeah, even though some will say "SE is just covering their tracks", SE doesn't have a habit of deciding to randomly suspend people, not in the 11 years of XI and they're not starting now.


That thread specifically mentions a "dupe" - if you got cash or extra items from an exploit that duplicates stuff, they have no qualms about smacking you. For those who got suspended and had their gil taken away, they seem to have gotten off rather lightly compared the gil buyers who were outright banned.
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#57 Oct 01 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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DomfranciscoOfIfrit wrote:
Sorry if you were truly suspended without cause, but from my experience playing other MMOs, typically people that claim to be wrongfully banned, aren't telling the whole truth.



You obviously didn't play FFXI, I know lots of people who were banned for not doing anything wrong... Just sending money to a mule or a friend could get you banned. The problem with SE is once banned they dont really give a crap and it is hard nto near impossible to get your account back.

I still remember the big charge card mistake where SE just banned people and it was SE mistake and those people could not get their accounts back.. They have the worst customer service in history.



Edited, Oct 1st 2013 4:06pm by Nashred
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#58 Oct 01 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Default
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Nashred wrote:
DomfranciscoOfIfrit wrote:
Sorry if you were truly suspended without cause, but from my experience playing other MMOs, typically people that claim to be wrongfully banned, aren't telling the whole truth.



You obviously didn't play FFXI, I know lots of people who were banned for not doing anything wrong... Just sending money to a mule or a friend could get you banned. The problem with SE is once banned they dont really give a crap and it is hard nto near impossible to get your account back.

I still remember the big charge card mistake where SE just banned people and it was SE mistake and those people could not get their accounts back.. They have the worst customer service in history.



Edited, Oct 1st 2013 4:06pm by Nashred

Everyone I knoew of getting banned in XI was guilty, even if in a minor way. But we all know the rules, and no one should QQ when SE enforces them. These people were guilty and thats that.
#59 Oct 01 2013 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
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While I don't disagree that SE has the worst customer service in video game history, I have to concur that anyone I know who was banned had something that triggered suspicion. Even though they claimed no wrong doing. SE banned only when they had evidence. (Someone else's mule transferring ten million gil to you IS evidence. Yeah, yeah, your friend quit the game and gave you all his stuff. So why did he only give you gil and not his Kirin's Osode or collection of HQ staves? And why is that mule now mysteriously deleted and the account it came from banned for gillselling ads? Smiley: dubious )

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 4:47pm by Catwho
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#60 Oct 01 2013 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Nashred wrote:
DomfranciscoOfIfrit wrote:
Sorry if you were truly suspended without cause, but from my experience playing other MMOs, typically people that claim to be wrongfully banned, aren't telling the whole truth.



You obviously didn't play FFXI, I know lots of people who were banned for not doing anything wrong... Just sending money to a mule or a friend could get you banned. The problem with SE is once banned they dont really give a crap and it is hard nto near impossible to get your account back.

I still remember the big charge card mistake where SE just banned people and it was SE mistake and those people could not get their accounts back.. They have the worst customer service in history.



Edited, Oct 1st 2013 4:06pm by Nashred

Everyone I knoew of getting banned in XI was guilty, even if in a minor way. But we all know the rules, and no one should QQ when SE enforces them. These people were guilty and thats that.


please tell me you are trolling.
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#61ShadowofaDoubt, Posted: Oct 01 2013 at 4:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Applauding SE for enforcing the rules and taking out gil sellers/buyers is trolling? Ive seen it all now folks.
#62 Oct 01 2013 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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"Applauding SE for enforcing the rules and taking out gil sellers/buyers is trolling? Ive seen it all now folks. "

I think the comment referred to only the guilty being banned.
Do you not remember the huge gardening fiasco in FFXI?
Hundreds of innocent enthusiasts of gardening got banned along with the RMT that were exploiting it.
So sometimes innocent people do get caught up.




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#63ShadowofaDoubt, Posted: Oct 02 2013 at 9:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Those people werent innocent
#64 Oct 02 2013 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Just writing to weigh in here - I was among those wrongfully suspended on Friday. I have no doubt I tripped many flags and completely understand why my account deserved scrutiny. However the week-long suspension is sort of extreme - customer support told me today my account is suspended through October 4th, although they couldn't tell me why the 72-hour suspension had been extended.

I'm happy to be subjected to additional scrutiny since I'm confiedent I have never participated in the buying or selling of gil, or in exploits of any kind, but being banned first and having questions asked later... it makes me very sad. At least I doubt they will subtract gil I made in sales, as I suspect their approach will be very much 'if this player sold items and could not have known for a fact the buying player bought gil or was RMT, we will not punish them for things beyond their control.' Obviously many folks will show up claiming they weren't guilty when in fact they were, but hopefully my concern for the wait and not the result lends some authenticity here and highlights the terrible treatment those folks who were suspended wrongly are getting.
#65 Oct 02 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Just curious how you tripped those flags? Were you selling very expensive items on the market boards?
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#66ShadowofaDoubt, Posted: Oct 02 2013 at 9:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Actually they are yanking your gil according to the STF report.
#67 Oct 02 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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The most egregious violators will be terminated, it says. Then it mentions that temporarily suspended characters will have gil removed. Given the context I think the format suggests that they are clarifying that non-egregious violatiors will have gil subtracted - i.e. folks who bought a million gil once, as opposed to somebody who was serving as an RMT distributor or buying tens of millions which would probably merit a termination.

I can't imagine they will be punishing innocent players. By that logic if even one person was thrown into the mix who only had maybe 100k on hand but had sold 1 philosophy item to a person who bought gil, they'd have their 100k subtracted too. I can't believe that's what's going to happen, it makes no sense.
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#68 Oct 02 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:

Applauding SE for enforcing the rules and taking out gil sellers/buyers is trolling? Ive seen it all now folks.


ok. so. you aren't trolling, and are just incredibly naive.
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#69 Oct 02 2013 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Just curious how you tripped those flags? Were you selling very expensive items on the market boards?


I was - server first items, things like that. With no history to go buy, I threw them up for about 250% profit margins to see if they'd sell. They did. However, I think what tripped the flags were a few HQ 2-star sales I made to other players directly who contacted me for commissions. The items cost about 760k to make each, so you can imagine my asking price as the only character actively capable of making them to the best of my knowledge. I suspect those huge character-to-character trades of gil are what threw warning bells up on my account, and I completely understand why.

This isn't directed at you, but this can easily lead into a debate about whether I deserve to keep the gil if it came from RMT. Of course I do. I sold at or around market value, and when there wasn't a market value I think I get the privilege of setting my own prices - especially if folks will buy. I'm sure SE would agree that top crafters operating within the letter and spirit of the rules should not have to artificially deflate their own prices or choose to not sell items at all for fear of receiving tainted gil. I say ban the players who bought gil along with the items they bought. I don't think they have time to be going around and researching each item I sold and deducting the gil for that item from my account while giving me the item back.

So, I'm fine if folks disagree but I'm not concerned about the outcome. I'm concerned about how long this is taking, especially when I'm still being billed.
#70ShadowofaDoubt, Posted: Oct 02 2013 at 10:08 AM, Rating: Unrated, (Expand Post) Naive would be believing these people are innocent, when SE's STF just stated that nobody was innocent, just guilty in a lesser degree.
#71 Oct 02 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Llester wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:

Applauding SE for enforcing the rules and taking out gil sellers/buyers is trolling? Ive seen it all now folks.


ok. so. you aren't trolling, and are just incredibly naive.

Naive would be believing these people are innocent, when SE's STF just stated that nobody was innocent, just guilty in a lesser degree.


Naive, and you don't understand how corporations work. k got it
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#72 Oct 02 2013 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Llester wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:

Applauding SE for enforcing the rules and taking out gil sellers/buyers is trolling? Ive seen it all now folks.


ok. so. you aren't trolling, and are just incredibly naive.

Naive would be believing these people are innocent, when SE's STF just stated that nobody was innocent, just guilty in a lesser degree.


Naive, and you don't understand how corporations work. k got it


Yeah I'm going to have to agree here - SE is not going to give any statistics or indication of how many, if any, accounts were wrongfully suspended - although I doubt any were wrongfully permabanned. Never take an opportunity to proactively announce you've suspended some people wrongfully - only if a large enough uproar is occurring does one respond and give that kind of information.
#73 Oct 02 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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AleminaofBismarck wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Just curious how you tripped those flags? Were you selling very expensive items on the market boards?


I was - server first items, things like that. With no history to go buy, I threw them up for about 250% profit margins to see if they'd sell. They did. However, I think what tripped the flags were a few HQ 2-star sales I made to other players directly who contacted me for commissions. The items cost about 760k to make each, so you can imagine my asking price as the only character actively capable of making them to the best of my knowledge. I suspect those huge character-to-character trades of gil are what threw warning bells up on my account, and I completely understand why.

This isn't directed at you, but this can easily lead into a debate about whether I deserve to keep the gil if it came from RMT. Of course I do. I sold at or around market value, and when there wasn't a market value I think I get the privilege of setting my own prices - especially if folks will buy. I'm sure SE would agree that top crafters operating within the letter and spirit of the rules should not have to artificially deflate their own prices or choose to not sell items at all for fear of receiving tainted gil. I say ban the players who bought gil along with the items they bought. I don't think they have time to be going around and researching each item I sold and deducting the gil for that item from my account while giving me the item back.

So, I'm fine if folks disagree but I'm not concerned about the outcome. I'm concerned about how long this is taking, especially when I'm still being billed.


I'd say so long as the logs show you had "first sale" items with no previous record of value or commissions in which actual hard goods were exchanged, you should be okay then.

Thank you for explaining. And I think that also explains why you have the suspension extension, since you're not an obvious buyer from a single source nor an obvious botter/duper. Some poor schlub intern at SE is currently going through the transaction logs line by line for your character. Smiley: lol

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:44pm by Catwho
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#74 Oct 02 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
AleminaofBismarck wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Just curious how you tripped those flags? Were you selling very expensive items on the market boards?


I was - server first items, things like that. With no history to go buy, I threw them up for about 250% profit margins to see if they'd sell. They did. However, I think what tripped the flags were a few HQ 2-star sales I made to other players directly who contacted me for commissions. The items cost about 760k to make each, so you can imagine my asking price as the only character actively capable of making them to the best of my knowledge. I suspect those huge character-to-character trades of gil are what threw warning bells up on my account, and I completely understand why.

This isn't directed at you, but this can easily lead into a debate about whether I deserve to keep the gil if it came from RMT. Of course I do. I sold at or around market value, and when there wasn't a market value I think I get the privilege of setting my own prices - especially if folks will buy. I'm sure SE would agree that top crafters operating within the letter and spirit of the rules should not have to artificially deflate their own prices or choose to not sell items at all for fear of receiving tainted gil. I say ban the players who bought gil along with the items they bought. I don't think they have time to be going around and researching each item I sold and deducting the gil for that item from my account while giving me the item back.

So, I'm fine if folks disagree but I'm not concerned about the outcome. I'm concerned about how long this is taking, especially when I'm still being billed.


I'd say so long as the logs show you had "first sale" items with no previous record of value or commissions in which actual hard goods were exchanged, you should be okay then.

Thank you for explaining. And I think that also explains why you have the suspension extension, since you're not an obvious buyer from a single source nor an obvious botter/duper. Some poor schlub intern at SE is currently going through the transaction logs line by line for your character. Smiley: lol

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:44pm by Catwho


I really hope so. It seems to make the most sense, but forums are forums so folks are going to feel the need to argue, always. I understand the impulse, but it gets pretty scary when folks are yelling from every direction that I'm a liar.
#75 Oct 02 2013 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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At this point though, their message discipline seems to suggest that each and every person who was suspended is guilty.

From Reinhart:

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きちんと調査を行った上で対処をしていますので、普通にプレイして金策をしていただく分にはまったく問題なく、無差別にアカウント停止などを行うことはありませんのでご安心ください。
We are dealing with them after carefully investigating, so for those that are normally playing, and collecting money wouldn’t have any problem. We will not randomly suspend accounts so please do not worry.


This was in response to the question from a JP player regarding their fears of collecting too much gil and getting suspended. It may not be internal policy, but since I was normally playing and collecting money, I'm certainly having a problem. My biggest fear that has started to bubble up since this morning when I learned of these statements is that they will simply keep us suspended and then punish us anyway so that they have deniability - folks showing up on the forums with tales of getting their account back with gil intact would make them look pretty bad for suspending legit players.

I recognize that that scenario would just lead to further claims that the people cheated and just feel bad now - but I wonder if all of those banned and suspended accounts are entirely, 100% all guilty people. I'm not, and the folks in my LS who were banned likely aren't. As I've said many times before in various venues, why would we ever buy gil if we always were ahead of the game since before gil was available for sale? We never *needed* to put our accounts at risk because we always had enough to pay for the next tier of crafting. ****, I had to level mining to 50 - server first - because there wasn't even an option to buy the materials. Nobody else had them. Being rich at the end of the first week sort of kills the need to risk it all just to buy gil.

I fervently hope SE does not take the cowardly approach of punishing the innocents cuaght up in this just for the sake of PR. Punishing passionate players who were mixed in with the (I would guess) bad majority of RMT/buyers just to save PR face is evil.
#76 Oct 02 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Default
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AleminaofBismarck wrote:
At this point though, their message discipline seems to suggest that each and every person who was suspended is guilty.

From Reinhart:

Quote:
きちんと調査を行った上で対処をしていますので、普通にプレイして金策をしていただく分にはまったく問題なく、無差別にアカウント停止などを行うことはありませんのでご安心ください。
We are dealing with them after carefully investigating, so for those that are normally playing, and collecting money wouldn’t have any problem. We will not randomly suspend accounts so please do not worry.


This was in response to the question from a JP player regarding their fears of collecting too much gil and getting suspended. It may not be internal policy, but since I was normally playing and collecting money, I'm certainly having a problem. My biggest fear that has started to bubble up since this morning when I learned of these statements is that they will simply keep us suspended and then punish us anyway so that they have deniability - folks showing up on the forums with tales of getting their account back with gil intact would make them look pretty bad for suspending legit players.

I recognize that that scenario would just lead to further claims that the people cheated and just feel bad now - but I wonder if all of those banned and suspended accounts are entirely, 100% all guilty people. I'm not, and the folks in my LS who were banned likely aren't. As I've said many times before in various venues, why would we ever buy gil if we always were ahead of the game since before gil was available for sale? We never *needed* to put our accounts at risk because we always had enough to pay for the next tier of crafting. ****, I had to level mining to 50 - server first - because there wasn't even an option to buy the materials. Nobody else had them. Being rich at the end of the first week sort of kills the need to risk it all just to buy gil.

I fervently hope SE does not take the cowardly approach of punishing the innocents cuaght up in this just for the sake of PR. Punishing passionate players who were mixed in with the (I would guess) bad majority of RMT/buyers just to save PR face is evil.

Putting crafted items up on he AH at a price where only gil buers could afford makes you guilty by reason of your greed. You did not care where your gil came from, and now you (and others) are trying to spin innocence when SE has the transaction logs that prove your gil is ill gotten. You people will lose your gil, and perhaps you will learn your lesson abot overpricing commodoties.
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