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Suspended Users Over CraftingFollow

#77 Oct 02 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
guilty by reason of your greed. You did not care where your gil came from, and now you (and others) are trying to spin innocence when SE has the transaction logs that prove your gil is ill gotten. You people will lose your gil, and perhaps you will learn your lesson abot overpricing commodoties.


What? They have the transaction logs showing I paid 720k for the mats to make an item. Then I put it up on the market for 1.5M. What about that is untoward? Illegal? Against the rules in letter or in spirit? If a desire to make money is punishable we may as well start banning undercutters as well. It's not my job to police where the gil comes from if I'm operating in a legitimate fashion.

Let me ask you, if you paid 720k for the mats for an item that had never been made before and you were confident nobody else would be able to make for a little while, what would you list it for? What's a 'fair price'? Or are you suggesting I'm guilty simply for having the gall to be the first one listing the item? Get off your moral high horse, until I'm inducted into the STF it's not my job to police my transactions and restrict my crafting behavior out of fear of RMT buying my goods. I've seen posts like this before and they seem tailor-made to provoke a reaction.
#78 Oct 02 2013 at 12:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's a huge difference between 1.5 million gil for a fairly expensive HQ level 50 piece of gear, and 1.5 million gil for a NQ bat wing. The latter will be banned for buying gil. The former is probably going to be okay.

... dude, I seriously hope you'll be okay. Smiley: frown
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#79 Oct 02 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
There's a huge difference between 1.5 million gil for a fairly expensive HQ level 50 piece of gear, and 1.5 million gil for a NQ bat wing. The latter will be banned for buying gil. The former is probably going to be okay.

... dude, I seriously hope you'll be okay. Smiley: frown


We'll see. I called support again about an hour ago and finally got a rep - same one I've been talking to recently. He said after the news yesterday from Japan regarding RMT bans and suspensions they are no longer 100% confident that we will retain our gil, but that given previous action taken by the STF in Japan they do not anticipate gil will be removed from accounts where players did not directly involve themselves in the buying and selling of gil for real-world cash. Like the item I was talking about earlier, there is no way for SE to prove or suspect that the market value of the item was not indeed 1.5M - early markets for items can also be hugely volatile. If a player buys 1.5M to purchase a ring and I receive the gil, what about when I spend that gil? Are the folks who I sent that gil to now culpable as well? If RMT hadn't bought my item, I wouldn't be paying for new materials... and so on and so forth.

It's hard to know, but it makes the most sense from their point of view I think to punish the source player. The item that the gil paid for is taken out of the game with the ban. Only in the instance an item was sold at an unusual price will there be an issue, and I suspect 'unusual price' does not include high prices for absurdly rare items, regardless of where the gil came from.

We'll have to wait and see, I'll update with a screenshot when my account unlocks on Friday confirming that either my gil was confiscated, or not. By all logic it should be the latter, unless SE has a really twisted view of punishing legit players.
#80 Oct 02 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Kind of worries me.

It is very easy, as of this post, to have over 5 million gil on a new server without any crafts leveled. There are certain crafting items and materia that are in high demand. The NPC provides the crafting material. The crafters can make their level 55 items, wear them for a few dungeon runs to spirit bond them, and then convert them into materia very easily. Some of the better level 3 materia sells for 150k+ on Migard. Almost all the level 4 materia sells for 200k on Migard.

Investigation should probably be done before without assuming someone is guilty just because of x amount of gil on an account.


I know of one guy in an LS of mine that had max on all trade skills (non-legacy) before the second week of EA was up. Even accounting for the P4 beta time, how on earth did he level every single craft skill to 50 in that short amount of time?

His gatherers are all in their 30's, and even if they were maxed it would take a good chunk of time to get all the necessary mats by hand, not to mention stuff that just has to be farmed (furble tufts, animal skins/hides/sinew). There simply aren't enough leves available in that time frame to get max crafting. So where did all that xp come from?

SE apparently thinks the same thing, because he's a part of the suspension as well.
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#81 Oct 02 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quor wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Kind of worries me.

It is very easy, as of this post, to have over 5 million gil on a new server without any crafts leveled. There are certain crafting items and materia that are in high demand. The NPC provides the crafting material. The crafters can make their level 55 items, wear them for a few dungeon runs to spirit bond them, and then convert them into materia very easily. Some of the better level 3 materia sells for 150k+ on Migard. Almost all the level 4 materia sells for 200k on Migard.

Investigation should probably be done before without assuming someone is guilty just because of x amount of gil on an account.


I know of one guy in an LS of mine that had max on all trade skills (non-legacy) before the second week of EA was up. Even accounting for the P4 beta time, how on earth did he level every single craft skill to 50 in that short amount of time?

His gatherers are all in their 30's, and even if they were maxed it would take a good chunk of time to get all the necessary mats by hand, not to mention stuff that just has to be farmed (furble tufts, animal skins/hides/sinew). There simply aren't enough leves available in that time frame to get max crafting. So where did all that xp come from?

SE apparently thinks the same thing, because he's a part of the suspension as well.


Did he also have a DoW/DoM leveled up?
#82 Oct 02 2013 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Never underestimate the ability of a determined hardcore player to crank out multiple max level jobs in a short period of time.

Edit: Not saying he was innocent - based on that description he sounds like a prime candidate to have discovered the gil duping exploit that SE patched up yesterday.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 5:35pm by Catwho
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#83 Oct 02 2013 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I mean, I burned GSM and MIN up concurrently and didn't start on CRP until about two weeks later. I know there were other 50 GSMs within a few days without mining leveled too far - they were just repeating high-reward low-level leves all the way to 50. They were dirt-poor and couldn't make anything out of mythril or electrum because I wasn't selling yet, but they were 50.
#84 Oct 02 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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I'd love to know what that exploit was - just out of curiosity - but I guess no one is going to saySmiley: disappointed
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#85 Oct 02 2013 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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KissMyPixel wrote:
I'd love to know what that exploit was - just out of curiosity - but I guess no one is going to saySmiley: disappointed


Yeah, SE is being pretty tight lipped about it. All we know is that it was a duping exploit and it's gone now!
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#86 Oct 03 2013 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Support told me they're scheduled to unlock at 'midnight on the 4th'. Unfortunately they couldn't tell me which midnight, which leaves four - Friday morning or night, JP or NA.
#87 Oct 03 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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I'm curious as to how anyone racks up enough gil that fast to make enough to buy 750k worth of materials... in the first week or two after launch on a non legacy server.
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#88 Oct 03 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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eldelphia wrote:
I'm curious as to how anyone racks up enough gil that fast to make enough to buy 750k worth of materials... in the first week or two after launch on a non legacy server.


More like a month it seems.

Again, never underestimate the hardcore. If I wasn't at work ten hours a day and splitting my time between two MMOs and three characters in XIV, I'd probably have all level 50s and be rich too. As it is, I barely get an hour in two or three times a week. Smiley: frown
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#89 Oct 03 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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eldelphia wrote:
I'm curious as to how anyone racks up enough gil that fast to make enough to buy 750k worth of materials... in the first week or two after launch on a non legacy server.


I can actually provide some insight here, which can be corroborated by pretty much anyone on my server who was leveling nonstop to 50 combat during the first week of the game.

Exactly one week after early access started, I hit server-first GSM50 and MIN50 (I actually just did exploration xp to carry my miner most of the way from 49-50). I'd taken a few days off of work to facilitate what I figured would be the launch of my last MMO. Never done anything like that before, I wanted to try being one of 'the best'. That involved some enormous marathon mining sessions with old episodes of Whose Line keeping me company. By the end I had a metric ton of Electrum Ore saved up.

I sold HQ electrum jewelry on the markets for 29k each, and offered them at 19k/ea or 90k per set of 5 to folks who purchased directly. This is a sticking point for some people I guess - they say I was ripping people off or deserve to be banned or what have you, but I didn't even start offering the 19k until I saw how fast they moved for 29k on the market boards. If folks will buy, I don't see how anyone can tell me to stop selling or that I'm playing in any way not intended by the devs.

By the time electrum gear started slowing down and other GSMs caught up maybe a week later, I'd made a bit over 2 million gil. I sold maybe 15 full sets and lots of individual items. Around that time is when the first RMT spam started showing up in cities. By that point, even if I had thought it was ok to buy gil (I don't), I wouldn't have needed to. I had all the gil I'd need to finance my crafting pretty much in perpetuity.

With that gil I was able to afford the items for the Sanguine Scepter - I fumbled there and asked too much in the beginning. I consequently didn't manage to sell more than one or two before another GSM caught up - I still managed to make somewhere around 2M in profits on those. At that point I was at about 5M - enough to start considering dropping 750k on philosophy materials. It was exactly the kind of crafting endgame challenge for which I was prepared to risk a small fortune.
#90ShadowofaDoubt, Posted: Oct 03 2013 at 10:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) They dont, hence the suspensions, apparently only gil buyers were buying those items.
#91 Oct 03 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Putting crafted items up on he AH at a price where only gil buers could afford makes you guilty by reason of your greed. You did not care where your gil came from, and now you (and others) are trying to spin innocence when SE has the transaction logs that prove your gil is ill gotten. You people will lose your gil, and perhaps you will learn your lesson abot overpricing commodoties.


This is the dumbest thing I have read in a while. One cannot control who buys their wares. This would be like shutting down a 7-11 because a known drug dealer was seen purchasing items from that store with suspected drug money.
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#92 Oct 03 2013 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
eldelphia wrote:
I'm curious as to how anyone racks up enough gil that fast to make enough to buy 750k worth of materials... in the first week or two after launch on a non legacy server.

They dont, hence the suspensions, apparently only gil buyers were buying those items.


See my post above in response to this person. Please let me know if anything doesn't make sense or requires clarification.
#93 Oct 03 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
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Azoria wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Putting crafted items up on he AH at a price where only gil buers could afford makes you guilty by reason of your greed. You did not care where your gil came from, and now you (and others) are trying to spin innocence when SE has the transaction logs that prove your gil is ill gotten. You people will lose your gil, and perhaps you will learn your lesson abot overpricing commodoties.


This is the dumbest thing I have read in a while. One cannot control who buys their wares. This would be like shutting down a 7-11 because a known drug dealer was seen purchasing items from that store with suspected drug money.

Well they are taking the crafters gil that they know was purchased. So I dont know how you cant comprehend that its not whether or not crafters are guilty, they were still used in the gil selling/buying scheme of things. Just like the gov't would take your money if you were duped in a scam, because it was illegally gained (look at Madoffs's clients)
#94 Oct 03 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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If someone purchases your goods with a stolen credit card, you may have to forfeit the money, but you're not going to also be charged with credit card fraud yourself. (And durable goods may be returned to the seller if they're not being used for police evidence.) That may be the situation that Alemina is facing.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#95ShadowofaDoubt, Posted: Oct 03 2013 at 11:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thats what I am saying here. The crafters cant cry about losing their gil, if that gil was illegal to begin with. Part of that problem was self-inflicted by the crafters, by overpricing everything to where only buyers of gil could purchase it. Their own greed was their downfall.
#96 Oct 03 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Azoria wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Putting crafted items up on he AH at a price where only gil buers could afford makes you guilty by reason of your greed. You did not care where your gil came from, and now you (and others) are trying to spin innocence when SE has the transaction logs that prove your gil is ill gotten. You people will lose your gil, and perhaps you will learn your lesson abot overpricing commodoties.


This is the dumbest thing I have read in a while. One cannot control who buys their wares. This would be like shutting down a 7-11 because a known drug dealer was seen purchasing items from that store with suspected drug money.

Well they are taking the crafters gil that they know was purchased. So I dont know how you cant comprehend that its not whether or not crafters are guilty, they were still used in the gil selling/buying scheme of things. Just like the gov't would take your money if you were duped in a scam, because it was illegally gained (look at Madoffs's clients)



I have to agree with Shadow on this one. Even in real life, if you sell something to someone and the money they have was either illegally obtained, you are now the one in possession of the illegal or 'counterfeit' money. You will lose that money. SE appears to be taking the same steps. So if a crafter makes something, legitimately, then sells it to someone (gil buyer), regardless of the fact if they knew or did not know the seller was a gil buyer, the money the crafter is now in possession of is illegal gil, hence you will lose it.

Look, i'm not saying that good, honest working crafters aren't getting screwed over this, but, even in real life you would still lose. I am truly sorry for those that do fall into this area.

If the crafters accounts are just being suspended while the illegal gil is removed and then the account is returned to them, then i honestly don't see a problem.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2013 1:09pm by RyanSquires
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#97 Oct 03 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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RyanSquires wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Azoria wrote:
ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Putting crafted items up on he AH at a price where only gil buers could afford makes you guilty by reason of your greed. You did not care where your gil came from, and now you (and others) are trying to spin innocence when SE has the transaction logs that prove your gil is ill gotten. You people will lose your gil, and perhaps you will learn your lesson abot overpricing commodoties.


This is the dumbest thing I have read in a while. One cannot control who buys their wares. This would be like shutting down a 7-11 because a known drug dealer was seen purchasing items from that store with suspected drug money.

Well they are taking the crafters gil that they know was purchased. So I dont know how you cant comprehend that its not whether or not crafters are guilty, they were still used in the gil selling/buying scheme of things. Just like the gov't would take your money if you were duped in a scam, because it was illegally gained (look at Madoffs's clients)



I have to agree with Shadow on this one. Even in real life, if you sell something to someone and the money they have was either illegally obtained, you are now the one in possession of the illegal or 'counterfeit' money. You will lose that money. SE appears to be taking the same steps. So if a crafter makes something, legitimately, then sells it to someone (gil buyer), regardless of the fact if they knew or did not know the seller was a gil buyer, the money the crafter is now in possession of is illegal gil, hence you will lose it.

Look, i'm not saying that good, honest working crafters aren't getting screwed over this, but, even in real life you would still lose. I am truly sorry for those that do fall into this area.

If the crafters accounts are just being suspended while the illegal gil is removed and then the account is returned to them, then i honestly don't see a problem.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2013 1:09pm by RyanSquires


Couple things.

First of all, folks keep saying I bought gil and then don't respond to my above explanation of how I earned mine.

Second, to address your point: Everyone I purchased philosophy items from should be suspended as well. I've spent millions on them at this point, and that was definitely in part from proceeds from these people we're calling RMT buyers. I don't understand how they're not handling dirty gil as well and I have to suffer - they profited off of indirect RMT as well.

This isn't the real world where there are some rather complicated issues, it's a game. If we crafters were suspended for receiving gil from people who bought gil, SE needs to look at whether we were playing as intended. Items like the ones I made still sell at multi-million levels now, so they obviously were sold at market value - ban the RMT players and their ill-gotten items.

This is all sort of pointless though, because as I've said numerous times before the folks buying from me are *not suspended*. SE says they finished their investigation last weekend, and the folks who made those huge purchases are still dandy. I cannot fathom punishing crafters for receiving gil for goods at market value but not punishing the people who were distributing tainted gil. It *doesn't follow*.
#98ShadowofaDoubt, Posted: Oct 03 2013 at 11:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thats a mighty assumption there, you have no way of knowing which of your customers were gil buyers or whether they were suspended. All that we know is you received bought gil from someone.
#99 Oct 03 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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AleminaofBismarck wrote:


Couple things.

First of all, folks keep saying I bought gil and then don't respond to my above explanation of how I earned mine.

Second, to address your point: Everyone I purchased philosophy items from should be suspended as well. I've spent millions on them at this point, and that was definitely in part from proceeds from these people we're calling RMT buyers. I don't understand how they're not handling dirty gil as well and I have to suffer - they profited off of indirect RMT as well.

This isn't the real world where there are some rather complicated issues, it's a game. If we crafters were suspended for receiving gil from people who bought gil, SE needs to look at whether we were playing as intended. Items like the ones I made still sell at multi-million levels now, so they obviously were sold at market value - ban the RMT players and their ill-gotten items.

This is all sort of pointless though, because as I've said numerous times before the folks buying from me are *not suspended*. SE says they finished their investigation last weekend, and the folks who made those huge purchases are still dandy. I cannot fathom punishing crafters for receiving gil for goods at market value but not punishing the people who were distributing tainted gil. It *doesn't follow*.


I am not saying you did or did not purchase gil from whomever, i was simply making a comment. If SE feels you are in possession of 'counterfeit', hopefully they will only take some gil and not completely clean your account out.

It is unfair that a crafter who comes into possession of 'counterfeit' gil has their account locked up while gil sellers and bots still swarm the cities and mining points. Game or real life, this is just something that happens.

Again, i'm not saying your right or wrong or whatever at this point, i'm just making an observation and offering my pov, take it as you will.
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#100 Oct 03 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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ShadowofaDoubt wrote:
Thats a mighty assumption there, you have no way of knowing which of your customers were gil buyers or whether they were suspended. All that we know is you received bought gil from someone.


How is there no way of knowing if they were suspended? I have friends in-game who have been confirming all week that my customers are still online. I know who my customers are because in terms of 2-stars, it was four people - two on the markets, two directly. They're all still playing. If anyone else bought stuff from me with bought gil, it can't have been for more than 100k.

#101 Oct 03 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Likely Alemina never received gil. At all. All they saw was a large amassing of gil, a few off MP transactions, and preemptively locked down the account with the intent to investigate the account.
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