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My idea for ending speed runs once and for allFollow

#1 Sep 27 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just now coming to the point in the story where speed runs are happening, and I know that the community is pretty divided on the topic. I'm personally against it, because it just flat-out ruins the experience for a story focused player or really anyone new. Here's my suggestion to forever destroy the concept:

Boss is dead, chest pops, hidden calculation happens (% of mobs killed in dungeon x tomestones = what you get), if 75% of mobs present weren't killed then no reward

Easy examples: Castrum Meridianum normally drops 100 philosophy, but your group skipped all the trash and only killed what they had to = no reward. 80% of mobs killed = 80 tomes, 100% killed = 100 tomes.

Thoughts?
#2 Sep 27 2013 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Id be all for it.
#3 Sep 27 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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not the worst idea but its too punitive.


i'd prefer something that gives players something extra over the 100 tomes to incentivize killing the trash. Like having trash randomly drop actual loot (crafting mats/gil/whatever)
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#4 Sep 27 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Either make it really easy to get tomes or really hard. Don't leave exploits available so that people without a moral compass can take advantage, and everyone else either has to take a philosophical stance against it (and being held back because of it) or jump on the proverbial bandwagon in order to keep up. Sadly, I am a proverbial bandwagon jumper...

Reminds me of superpacs and the 2012 elections. Everyone knew it was a bad idea, but it gave the campaign a lot of money, and if the other guys were doing it, well, we dont want to fall behind...

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 2:03pm by Valkayree
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#5 Sep 27 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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i just keep thinking about how this wasn't ever an issue in XI salvage, mostly because killing the "trash" was part of the mechanics of the dungeons, not to mention the "trash" dropped things people wanted.

why can't SE take a page from their own (successful) playbook?
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#6 Sep 27 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trash mobs at level 50 don't drop loot, no exp , and maybe 1 gil. I can see why some would want to bypass trash as much as possible.
#7 Sep 27 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
i just keep thinking about how this wasn't ever an issue in XI salvage, mostly because killing the "trash" was part of the mechanics of the dungeons, not to mention the "trash" dropped things people wanted.

why can't SE take a page from their own (successful) playbook?


I like this. Same thing w/ dynamis too, mobs dropped AF and coins.
#8 Sep 27 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I can totally see why they'd want to skip the trash too. My problem solely lies in being new to the instance and being forced to speed run when I'm a "story" player. I like to watch and read the cutscenes, not zone in after a cutscene and have my group already gone and yelling at me.
#9 Sep 27 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a tank friend that will tell a CM group to skip cut scenes. I yell at him on VENT stfu and let them watch b/c the rest of the group is going to streamroll anyway and I say in the party we are about to steam roll just follow
#10 Sep 27 2013 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Loris wrote:
I'm just now coming to the point in the story where speed runs are happening...


When is that? Cause my plan for that is to level a Tank. I wish the game/playerbase could absorb slow levelers and allow them to enjoy the content like the faster ones. Haven't seen any game really able to get that to work.
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#11 Sep 27 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Give people an incentive to kill trash and add gating (e.g. trash drops key to unlock door), that way people have to kill that trash but don't feel like they are wasting time doing it. Spiritbinding is obviously not enough incentive.

The problem is inherent in the simple formula:

Unrewarding Skippable Trash + Shiny token at end = Speed Runs = Fracture = Toxic Community

There is no incentive to kill trash nor is there incentive to do other content even it offered the exact same rewards because pseudo-min/max "speed runners" will determine that it take ten seconds less to do dungeon A compared to dungeon B, the perception spreads that B is "harder" than A (whether or not it is or isn't isn't really relevant once the perception spread) and so NOBODY is willing to do anything but "Speed runs" of A.

GW2 had the same problem and it made dungeon crawling not fun. Everyone only did a few specific paths to farm tokens/gold and on those paths they ran past everything (sometimes even bosses) and finding groups for the other paths took forever. For some paths/dungeons like Arah and Crucible you may as well not even bother trying let alone try farming tokens from them for a skin you like unless you have a static party, most people do the story mode once then forget about them because they don't want skins or achievements they just want the stats (most of which can be obtained from a few different sources).

How anyone can consider a system like that (where like 80%+ of the content is simply ignored) successful is mind boggling. For some reason SE thought it a good idea to copy this fail system, part of me wonders if they actually ever experienced it because it has the EXACT same "problems", e.g. it breeds toxics, as their own system. I was in Halatali and was already hearing "we can skip this stuff" and began to cringe because I already realized what was in store for me later.

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 3:33pm by KingoGoodbomber
#12 Sep 27 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Give the trash a 1% chance to drop 100s to everyone in the group.
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#13 Sep 27 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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A simple solution is to figure how long speed runs take and make the trash drop the equivalent reward but in less total time.

e.g. Assume a speed run takes 20 minutes and rewards X currency. Make it so if you spend 18 minutes killing trash you get another X currency. Or give the trash a loot table like WoW (at least when I played it) with things people want, e.g. accessories, or even cosmetic stuff like mounts and will take time to kill for a chance.

People will do the math and figure out it is more rewarding to clear the trash and so they will start clearing it.
#14 Sep 27 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Loris wrote:
I'm just now coming to the point in the story where speed runs are happening, and I know that the community is pretty divided on the topic. I'm personally against it, because it just flat-out ruins the experience for a story focused player or really anyone new. Here's my suggestion to forever destroy the concept:

Boss is dead, chest pops, hidden calculation happens (% of mobs killed in dungeon x tomestones = what you get), if 75% of mobs present weren't killed then no reward

Easy examples: Castrum Meridianum normally drops 100 philosophy, but your group skipped all the trash and only killed what they had to = no reward. 80% of mobs killed = 80 tomes, 100% killed = 100 tomes.

Thoughts?


No, it's boring and silly.

Forgive my harsh tone, but maybe you haven't been grinding Amdapor Keep for the last month like most of us. People against speed runs, generally, fall into this category. I am required to do 8 runs per week to cap ToMs or I fall behind. That's 8 X 45 minutes, which is what a good party can manage without speed runs. The dungeons are pathetically boring when your party is overgeared, healing and tanking can be slept during and even DD can just hit 1 ability and clear it with this time and no problems.

That's not fun content.

The proper solution would be:

A) Provide additional avenues for ToM grinding (which we'll see in 2.1)
and
B) Add Tomes to the enemy drop pools, in addition to the current rewards. Make it a small chance, I don't care.

But when you make trash mobs drop 1 *****ing gil and all they do is break your gear (exp gain = gear dmg) you do very little to incentivise the population to kill them. I would rather speed run it in 18 minutes (still currently doable) and use the rest of my time leveling something or crafting or helping people with Titan.

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#15 Sep 27 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
Give the trash a 1% chance to drop 100s to everyone in the group.


I've seen this concept work. Good idea.

Don't know what the trash exactly is in those runs yet. But I would think it would be more fun if they weren't just roll-over-and-die. Maybe something you can do with skill to end the fights faster?
#16 Sep 27 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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And my solution is basically the same thing as the OPs except for the reward is at the end which is a good idea so that people don't spend 18 minutes killing the trash and then resetting since it is 2 minutes faster than clearing it as well (using the above example: 18 x2 = 36 minutes < 18 + 20 = 38 minutes).

The key is how it is handled/perceptions. If they took the current amount and then lowered them a base % based on trash killed then people will perceive it as punishment/nerfs. If you keep the current count and add a "bonus" based on trash cleared that makes it more efficient to get the bonus than to reset and clear again, people will think of it as a boon (and others will cry about "easy mode handouts" but they can be effectively ignored because they are almost always haves talking down to have-nots).

It would also fit into what Yoshi was saying about nerfing end game content. Reducing the cost of stuff is basically equivalent to adding more rewards while keeping the prices the same the only difference is how they are perceived by the community, e.g. lowering the cost of something by 50% is the same as leaving the cost the same and giving 50% more currency, lowering the cost of something from $10 to 8$ while still paying $1 is equivalent to paying someone $1.25 instead of $1.00 and keeping the price at $10. Same amount of work is involved but they are perceived differently especially if the currency affects multiple items.
#17 Sep 27 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Loris wrote:

Easy examples: Castrum Meridianum normally drops 100 philosophy, but your group skipped all the trash and only killed what they had to = no reward. 80% of mobs killed = 80 tomes, 100% killed = 100 tomes.

Thoughts?


This will never happen the way you have described. If anything, they would give you bonus for clearing every mob and regular for anything else. I think that would actually be a good option.

I am pretty sure they will start by deciding the minimum amount of effort they would like groups to partake and find a way to force tha. A lot of times this is with some sort of gatekeeper.
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#18 Sep 27 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Loris wrote:
I'm just now coming to the point in the story where speed runs are happening, and I know that the community is pretty divided on the topic. I'm personally against it, because it just flat-out ruins the experience for a story focused player or really anyone new. Here's my suggestion to forever destroy the concept:

Boss is dead, chest pops, hidden calculation happens (% of mobs killed in dungeon x tomestones = what you get), if 75% of mobs present weren't killed then no reward

Easy examples: Castrum Meridianum normally drops 100 philosophy, but your group skipped all the trash and only killed what they had to = no reward. 80% of mobs killed = 80 tomes, 100% killed = 100 tomes.

Thoughts?


No, it's boring and silly.

Forgive my harsh tone, but maybe you haven't been grinding Amdapor Keep for the last month like most of us. People against speed runs, generally, fall into this category. I am required to do 8 runs per week to cap ToMs or I fall behind. That's 8 X 45 minutes, which is what a good party can manage without speed runs. The dungeons are pathetically boring when your party is overgeared, healing and tanking can be slept during and even DD can just hit 1 ability and clear it with this time and no problems.

That's not fun content.

The proper solution would be:

A) Provide additional avenues for ToM grinding (which we'll see in 2.1)
and
B) Add Tomes to the enemy drop pools, in addition to the current rewards. Make it a small chance, I don't care.

But when you make trash mobs drop 1 *****ing gil and all they do is break your gear (exp gain = gear dmg) you do very little to incentivise the population to kill them. I would rather speed run it in 18 minutes (still currently doable) and use the rest of my time leveling something or crafting or helping people with Titan.


It's all about incentives. Say you do a run in 45 minutes and get 40 tombs that's ~.88 tombs/minute. If you could do a run in 60 minutes and get 55 tombs that's ~.90 tombs/minute plus the bonus of not having to get a new instance/group. If new players are in the group then give a reward equivalent to the tombs/minute that it takes to watch the cut scenes and only dole it out to those who don't skip them (e.g. one tomb per minute of cut scene only if there are new people and you don't skip). That way everyone gets rewarded for being patient without lowering farming efficiency.

Basically there needs to be a system where everyone wins and people don't feel like they are being punished or dragged down for being understanding and /or patient.

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 4:01pm by KingoGoodbomber
#19 Sep 27 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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We're pretty much all saying the same thing at this point. It sounds like most people have no issue spending the time killing everything in the dungeon as long as there is a tangible reward or chance for reward. This is like, basic game design.


Also, yes, there really really needs to be another viable place to farm ToMs.

Edited, Sep 27th 2013 4:02pm by Llester
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#20 Sep 27 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mixing progression and story was a mistake. I got lucky with my CM/Praetorium groups but in the end you only do those once for the story. Once you are grinding out your tomestones you will realise bad your suggestion would make things. If you don't want speed runs even when you are not running the dungeon for your first time then you are probably the Antichrist or something.
#21 Sep 27 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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except at this point, we're talking less about CM/Prae (which can be done in ~20minutes) and much much more about AK, which cannot.

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#22 Sep 27 2013 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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for one ending speed runs is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. yeah it sounds all good on your first run when you wanna see the cs but remember you are only going through it one time for the story. what about on your 200th run? you are forcing player to spend so much of there time for no reason at all. easy way around this and how i see people doing it, if you need story do DF if you just want to speed run shout whats wrong with that? why end speed running that just seems short sighted.
#23 Sep 27 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately, this doesn't address the problem. Despite what people say, it's not the mobs that are the problem. It is the people. If you have a grinder, people want to get through it as fast as possible. As a result, people will hit it as fast as they can as often as they can.

So, you make it so people have to kill every mob? Now there are more choke points where people have to pull from, and to, but you have to operate just as fast. Get mobs, pull to cannon, kill. Grab next group, rinse and repeat.

In the case of CM, once you have the first set of cannons open, it would just turn into, bring everything there to kill it faster. And repeat with each set.

There is nothing SE can really do to slow people down. As the whole point of the seals system *IS* to slow people down, and the net reaction is to just grind faster.

The fracture in the community is self imposed. I for one make it a point to walk people through CM on their first run, and even got into a fight with my wife because of the newb wanting to watch the cut scenes.

I have also been in parties where the tank will pull no matter what (we had a link, and he pulled a boss, people died), and just left the party.

I have seen tanks and whms leave because the run was going too slow.

People need to relax and enjoy the ride, or get with a static group and just zerg blast it themselves. The imposing speed on others thing was old before it started.
#24 Sep 27 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Sigue wrote:
Mixing progression and story was a mistake. I got lucky with my CM/Praetorium groups but in the end you only do those once for the story. Once you are grinding out your tomestones you will realize how bad your suggestion would make things. If you don't want speed runs even when you are not running the dungeon for your first time then you are probably the Antichrist or something.


How they handled XI was much the same - some dungeons were required for both story purposes and progression. You didn't get access to {sky} and all the goodies those guys dropped until you had beaten a series of small bosses for it. You couldn't access the final boss of {sky} until you'd beaten some (but not all) of the mini bosses within it.

FFXI did one thing much better, though, and that was separating the long-*** cutscenes from the meat of the dungeon/fight. (Click once to CS, click 2nd time to enter fight.) XIV could take a cue from that.
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#25 Sep 27 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Sigue wrote:
Mixing progression and story was a mistake. I got lucky with my CM/Praetorium groups but in the end you only do those once for the story. Once you are grinding out your tomestones you will realize how bad your suggestion would make things. If you don't want speed runs even when you are not running the dungeon for your first time then you are probably the Antichrist or something.


How they handled XI was much the same - some dungeons were required for both story purposes and progression. You didn't get access to {sky} and all the goodies those guys dropped until you had beaten a series of small bosses for it. You couldn't access the final boss of {sky} until you'd beaten some (but not all) of the mini bosses within it.

FFXI did one thing much better, though, and that was separating the long-*** cutscenes from the meat of the dungeon/fight. (Click once to CS, click 2nd time to enter fight.) XIV could take a cue from that.


I see WHY they did it though, and that's to both give new level 50 players a place get geared and give higher level players a reason to help them.

I think we'll see a drastic change in this come 2.1, when they add the Random Duty rewards. We have no details, but I imagine that you queue up for "Random" and get put into whatever is needed at the time, and then get some ToP and ToM for the effort. I would much rather this, as I love many of the dungeons but there just isn't a reason to run them until Hard Modes are added.
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#26 Sep 28 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Making trash mobs worth something doesn't mean people will wait around for you to watch cutscenes. The final two story dungeons take almost an hour and a half to finish while watching everything. I hated doing them with speed runners but if theyve been doing them a while i understand why they wanna skip cutscenes. Making trash mobs "useful" wont change that. Gotta be another solution.
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