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Raise + well-timed AOE Cure prevents weakness...Follow

#1 Sep 30 2013 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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...and I don't think it's an exploit.

Initially, I thought this was some wild fantasy, but after seeing a YouTube where it was demonstrated and successfully performing it myself on both White Mage and Scholar, it seems legit (and I don't mean that sarcastically).

The thing is, as a healer, you're almost led to discovering this trick. First, you "inexplicably" can't target someone directly with a spell for several seconds after raising (or resurrecting them, as the case may be), but strangely, AoE casts hit just fine. So it seems logical you would eventually discover the "exploit" after getting used to setting up an AoE cure after raising someone sooner or later. Also, when you do time the AoE just right, there is a white and blue "just raised" status icon that appears rather than the red, black, and green weakness icon. So, at least there is an acknowledgement in place that this situation was anticipated. So I'm beginning to think this was an intentional design.

It's cool... but it also bothers me a little.

I've had a tank rage quit on me because I couldn't successfully perform this feat on command, so that's one reason I'm not a fan. It's nice to find a hidden trick, but healers who are just starting out aren't just going to know how to do this without at least some job quest pointing out you can pull this off, and there are no end of abusive jerks who are going to give healers a hard time over not automatically knowing how to do this.

But the other thing that's bad is that if you're raising someone who died in combat... the thing that murdered him or her is still rampaging around trying to add a few notches to that list. Even if you can Swiftcast the raise, you have to deal with dodging AoE and keeping everyone else alive without standing in place waiting to perfectly time that AoE cure so the raised victim doesn't rage with the "indignity" of weakness. It just seems like one more high-pressure expectation that you won't have time to answer for when there's a boss raging around.

So, what do you think of this? Is it an exploit or a hidden trick? Should this be the measure of what separates the good healers from the bad or is this another unrealistic expectation on a demanding role?
#2 Sep 30 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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If this is legit I see another problem. I swiftcast resurrect people all the time only to see it tick down and they not taking the raise. And now I have to time an AOE heal based off when they realize they hey I should get up now....

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 3:48pm by nonameoflevi
#3 Sep 30 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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I've got a thing where I get a firestarter proc, then let the next Fire I in the cast go off at the same time I spam the Fire III button. Technically the proc is supposed to disappear after I cast the next spell. I kind of sneak it in. I get two casts in back to back, both off of Astral Fire III. I get in 600-800 extra damage that way.

Also,

Had a whm the other day tell me that I could sleep the Succubus in AK...

Tanks get flack as well. Just listen to the gripes that result when the tank forgets (or refuses) to mark targets.

Point is, there are douchebags of every species.

Lol, if I'm fighting titan and the tank isn't calling the plumes with a <se.7> macro.... Smiley: mad then I just dodge the plumes best i can and hope I friended the tank who did. Smiley: waycool

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 2:53pm by Valkayree

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 9:58am by Valkayree
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#4 Sep 30 2013 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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nonameoflevi wrote:
If this is legit I see another problem. I swiftcast resurrect people all the time only to see it tick down and they not taking the raise. And now I have to time an AOE heal based off when they realize they hey I should get up now....

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 3:48pm by nonameoflevi


in their defense, you often dont want to just insta-accept a raise, depending on the situation...hi2u raise into plumes!


also, OP, this sounds like unintended behavior.
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#5 Sep 30 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
If this is legit I see another problem. I swiftcast resurrect people all the time only to see it tick down and they not taking the raise. And now I have to time an AOE heal based off when they realize they hey I should get up now....

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 3:48pm by nonameoflevi


in their defense, you often dont want to just insta-accept a raise, depending on the situation...hi2u raise into plumes!


also, OP, this sounds like unintended behavior.


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#6 Sep 30 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
If this is legit I see another problem. I swiftcast resurrect people all the time only to see it tick down and they not taking the raise. And now I have to time an AOE heal based off when they realize they hey I should get up now....

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 3:48pm by nonameoflevi


in their defense, you often dont want to just insta-accept a raise, depending on the situation...hi2u raise into plumes!


also, OP, this sounds like unintended behavior.


I would agree except for that white and blue icon you get when it's pulled off, almost like it's flagging that it worked. Unlike BLMs slipping in extra spells under the radar, this isn't related to exploiting lag so far as i can tell.

But I suppose anything is possible. We'll see if it gets patched out.
#7 Sep 30 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xoie wrote:
I've had a tank rage quit on me because I couldn't successfully perform this feat on command...

This is precisely the kind of situation I thought might occur when I started to read your OP.

Reminds me a bit of Divine Seal + Raise in FFXI removing weakness / restoring more lost exp, only that was completely untrue.
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#8 Sep 30 2013 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
Tanks get flack as well. Just listen to the gripes that result when the tank forgets (or refuses) to mark targets.


Considering that target marks can be macro'd into spells and abilities, I don't see why anyone wouldn't mark targets. It makes things so much easier - and shifts the blame of a ***** up from the tank to the DDs.

Seriously, why would you not want to utilize a method that takes the onus of blame off yourself? Smiley: dubious
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#9 Sep 30 2013 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
Tanks get flack as well. Just listen to the gripes that result when the tank forgets (or refuses) to mark targets.


Considering that target marks can be macro'd into spells and abilities, I don't see why anyone wouldn't mark targets. It makes things so much easier - and shifts the blame of a ***** up from the tank to the DDs.

Seriously, why would you not want to utilize a method that takes the onus of blame off yourself? Smiley: dubious


I think DPS should not die ever and blame them for doing so by not using a <call> to dodge circles of doom!
#10 Sep 30 2013 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
Tanks get flack as well. Just listen to the gripes that result when the tank forgets (or refuses) to mark targets.


Considering that target marks can be macro'd into spells and abilities, I don't see why anyone wouldn't mark targets. It makes things so much easier - and shifts the blame of a ***** up from the tank to the DDs.

Seriously, why would you not want to utilize a method that takes the onus of blame off yourself? Smiley: dubious

Not to be argumentative, because i agree with you but, the same could be said for DD's using the </as> command (assist) in macros also.
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#11 Sep 30 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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i'm not 100% on the whole use /assist thing. Its much easier to just use target markers. Tanks sometimes need to switch targets throughout a skirmish. I suppose its all in how you use the /assist macro. I certainly wouldn't macro it into abilities. In my experience, target marking is all around more foolproof. Even after running AK a zillion times and knowing target priority, things can still get confusing for people every once in awhile without markers.

edit: I even prefer marking as a DD over /assisting, because that way i know everyone is on the same page. I've definitely had to do that before..

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 5:15pm by Llester
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#12 Sep 30 2013 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't like assist. Do like #1, #2 and #3.

Hey Xoie, I though your OP was really well worded. I'm really curious about that "Just Raised" status Icon. Is there any other way to acheive that Icon? Or is it specifically for this combo?

Is it maybe in place for a future spell like Raise II? (and somehow you are convincing the server that you cast Raise II, with the additional HP gain within the Raise timing window?)
#13 Sep 30 2013 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not legit, it adds a buff before weakness can be applied. I don't like to do it because it definitely feels like a glitch.
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#14 Sep 30 2013 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
It's not legit, it adds a buff before weakness can be applied.


That raises the entirely valid question of... "so what?"

spell_raise(target)
{
make_alive(target);
move(target,caster.pos);
apply_aura(target,AURA_WEAKNESS);
}

I mean....is there any reason the Raise spell needs to be a ton more complex than that?

Oh and an extra line item to make the animation take 10 years to complete. Done. Golden. Print.
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#15 Sep 30 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
It's not legit, it adds a buff before weakness can be applied.


That raises the entirely valid question of... "so what?"

spell_raise(target)
{
make_alive(target);
move(target,caster.pos);
apply_aura(target,AURA_WEAKNESS);
}

I mean....is there any reason the Raise spell needs to be a ton more complex than that?

Oh and an extra line item to make the animation take 10 years to complete. Done. Golden. Print.


Unfortunately, it's not that easy in a multithreaded OO environment.

What should happen is that a lock should be placed on the target object so that no changes can be made to its members (current hp, buffs) by other methods until the spell_raise method completes.
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#16 Sep 30 2013 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pickins wrote:
Unfortunately, it's not that easy in a multithreaded OO environment.

What should happen is that a lock should be placed on the target object so that no changes can be made to its members (current hp, buffs) by other methods until the spell_raise method completes.


It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if I couldn't be instantly killed while still in the animation Smiley: rolleyes

I'm convinced that Raise can only revive me successfully if it would do so in a lethal ground effect of some sort.
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#17 Sep 30 2013 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Pickins wrote:
Unfortunately, it's not that easy in a multithreaded OO environment.

What should happen is that a lock should be placed on the target object so that no changes can be made to its members (current hp, buffs) by other methods until the spell_raise method completes.


It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if I couldn't be instantly killed while still in the animation Smiley: rolleyes

I'm convinced that Raise can only revive me successfully if it would do so in a lethal ground effect of some sort.


I completely agree. FFXI had this problem as well.

I can't count the number of time's I've tried to raise, only to be killed mid-animation.
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#18 Sep 30 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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I thought it was an exploit. However, I'm not so sure. when you remove weakness, it gives the person 60 seconds of reraise. I'm nos sure under circumstances the aoes give reraise, but every time you do it without weakness, it gives re raise. I'm not sure, but it's definitely nice. You actually have to work to time it, and isn't done easily in the middle of difficult situation. I hope it stays!
#19 Sep 30 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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The fact that you need to time it immediately screams bug to me. You're basically interrupting some method mid-stream and causing an unexpected outcome. I know I won't be touching it with a ten-foot pole. Now I regret going CNJ...
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#20 Sep 30 2013 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
...and I don't think it's an exploit.

So, what do you think of this? Is it an exploit or a hidden trick? Should this be the measure of what separates the good healers from the bad or is this another unrealistic expectation on a demanding role?


It's clearly not working as intended. I'm sure SE is going to "fix this" by the 2.1 patch.

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 9:54pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#21 Sep 30 2013 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
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It's an exploit and an accepted bug by SE, they just haven't acted on it yet. If you notice, much like FFXI, Weakness and "Raise" shares a slot which is why this happens.

(In XI Sublimation and Refresh (Spell) shares a slot.)

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#22 Sep 30 2013 at 9:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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All i can say is play it safe, would hate to get banned!
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#23 Oct 01 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure its a bug which then will somehow be an exploit. You are not getting a "reraise" buff when its done you are getting the same raise that was on you to start. Its also not hard to time. I would stay clear of doing this on purpose. Now if you are in the heat of a battle and spamming aoe heals and it happens then so be it.
#24 Oct 01 2013 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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The sane response for something this worthless is to patch the problem out of the game and move on with your life. SE has a history of being incapable of proportional reactions though and would sooner ban paying customers than make any kind of sense. I keep seeing this "stay clear of x" "Nonono.. don't wanna do that... the law man's a comin." Nonsense about every issue in this game. Speaks volumes about the quality of customer service at SE and their inability to react proportionally to anything.
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#25 Oct 01 2013 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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Since the trick doesn't result in an excessive advantage, they are most likely silently acknowleding it, determining if a related ability should exist, and working to code it out of the game.

However, considering some of the stunts pulled with nin and rdm back in the day, this could be something they may not address for years. At which point it will become a standard method of play (like stoneskin/phalanx/enspell/zerodmg rdm soloing).

This is not something SE has typically banned people for. And they haven't made a real stink about it yet. But, then again, I don't play whm or sch, so I am very much without a care in this matter...
#26 Oct 01 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Furiousnixon wrote:
The sane response for something this worthless is to patch the problem out of the game and move on with your life. SE has a history of being incapable of proportional reactions though and would sooner ban paying customers than make any kind of sense. I keep seeing this "stay clear of x" "Nonono.. don't wanna do that... the law man's a comin." Nonsense about every issue in this game. Speaks volumes about the quality of customer service at SE and their inability to react proportionally to anything.


Any company worth their salt bans people who exploit..this includes Blizzard which people are paying customers there too, are they not?

rfolkker wrote:
Since the trick doesn't result in an excessive advantage.


Believe me, in certain instances it does give an extreme advantage where it was obviously designed if people die that should be the end of your run.

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 7:42am by Theonehio
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#27 Oct 01 2013 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
i'm not 100% on the whole use /assist thing. Its much easier to just use target markers. Tanks sometimes need to switch targets throughout a skirmish. I suppose its all in how you use the /assist macro. I certainly wouldn't macro it into abilities. In my experience, target marking is all around more foolproof. Even after running AK a zillion times and knowing target priority, things can still get confusing for people every once in awhile without markers.

edit: I even prefer marking as a DD over /assisting, because that way i know everyone is on the same page. I've definitely had to do that before..

Edited, Sep 30th 2013 5:15pm by Llester


I personally cycle through the enemies and look for the 1. I think it was more of a problem for me pre-AK with tanks not marking priority in my df pugs. But then again, what can I expect with pugs?
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#28 Oct 01 2013 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Any company worth their salt bans people who exploit..this includes Blizzard which people are paying customers there too, are they not?


Those companies would also have hotfixed out the bug by now.

Same with the Titan HM bug that SE just told people "not to do."
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#29 Oct 01 2013 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:


Any company worth their salt bans people who exploit..this includes Blizzard which people are paying customers there too, are they not?

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 7:42am by Theonehio


I think, as Callinon mentioned, they would have fixed it by now. I suspect it would be fixed before it was an issue and this ban everyone mentality even had a chance to kick in. But Blizzard isn't SE. Instead of promptly addressing it they'll leave it and then use the most draconian method possible to police what I still contend is essentially a "Woops, oh well no big deal, should patch that out." problem That's a much better approach from a customer service perspective. You ****** up, own it and fix the problem promptly instead of going on these ridiculous sweeping ban campaigns.
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#30 Oct 01 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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Why its a bug/exploit

1) you dont get the hp penalty associated with death
2) You have reraise , so not only do you get no penalty, but you gain an addition auto-reraise incase you die again.

Unless I hear otherwise from SE it is a bug, and SE is not exactly friendly to people who exploit bugs to their own benefit.


Granted the circumstances that led to the discovery of it are 100% legit and expected like the OP states. Every good whm is casting a group heal while raise is going off to keep the person from dieing to the AE that seems to always target dead people.
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